Progressive breeding places
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Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47246
Printed Date: February 09 2025 at 04:56
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Topic: Progressive breeding places
Posted By: Moogtron III
Subject: Progressive breeding places
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 17:28
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No, it's not what you think... Or maybe it is I'm not sure if this topic has done before. What I meant with progressive breeding places is this: some of the classic bands have withdrawn themselves from the outside world for some time, and came out with something very original.
For instance: early Genesis, when there was no Genesis yet, but just a Garden Wall, and an Anon, were relatively withdrawn from the world in Charterhouse, and later they isolated themselves even more in Richard MacPhail's cottage.
Another example: Steve Winwood, who was making solid, but not very original sounding records with The Spencer Davis Group, formed Traffic and all of the band lived for quite some time in the famous Berkshire Cottage. Result: very original sounding music.
Further on: Emerson, Lake & Palmer were practicing their new sound for six months, before exposing themselves to the world; I think Yes went to the countryside to compose The Yes Album; I'm sure Marillion locked themselves up in a French chateau to make Brave; Focus did the same for Moving Waves in a Dutch chateau; Kayak were being put in Centre Parcs holiday houses in the Dutch woods to develop their sound...
In the age of internet, YouTube and MySpace, shouldn't progressive artists just be kidnapped for their own good, and being put in a home, a castle, a cottage, with all the state-of-the-art equipment they need, but no computers, internet or cell phones, and after six months we unlock the doors, and then... they can offer a new prog masterpiece to the world
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Replies:
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 18:01
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It's too bad that so many musicians/ composers can't make ends meet and need day jobs just to support themselves. Perhaps we could start a fund for sending poor prog bands to band camp, or poor but very talented ones to band chateau. Or maybe I could convert my basement cum dungeon into a recording cell (a few hours on the rack might rack up a few good musical ideas). Getting away in those kind of situations has led to a lot of very good music. I remember with Focus that musicians were often offered places to stay there, for free as I recall (I think there was some shagging involved too if I remember the documentary on a certain "matron of the arts" who would offer room in her "inn" to musicians. Going on memory here...). |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 18:03
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Of course there's Fripp's elective seclusion that lead to the "Road to 1984", Exposure and Discipline. On the other hand, wasn't it Kawabata Makoto from AMT who went on a huge soujourn through Europe, recording and collaborating on the way? ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 19:21
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There is no "breeding" place for any kind of music, it all depends of the composing stile of the musician. Some need a quiet place with a lot of tranquility to come up with good music, some just out of nowhere have random good ideas and put them together when composing, some just try really, REALLY hard and writes something from scratch and some only can write from a agitated "jam" session with lots of music listening before it. Mozart, for example, kept good ideas in his head and when he sited to write he simply wrote the whole music at once. Haydn wrote all his good ideas and then putted them together. Dream Theater only way to compose anything is to get into a studio and start a improvised jam. Besides, the conditions for the musicians to write anything vary so much (from the person personality to his mood at the time) that may be impossible to say "hey, you are doing it wrong" you must write music THIS way and not that way". |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 19:31
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listening to the Ian Anderson interview on the remastered Thick as a Brick CD, we should all be showing humble respect as the band locked themselves into a horrible place , in a damp basement away from all the amenities and comforts and made this remarkable album. Purple's Machine Head was recorded with a "Mobile" "cause some stupid with a flare gun burnt the place to the ground" , just listen to the lyrics and check out the vinyl LP gatefold cover. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 19:33
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My first thought was "the bedroom." But then I remembered proggers never get laid... .  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 19:45
How very true and according to all the nay sayers we SUCK  If they only knew! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
stonebeard wrote:Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 20:40
speak for yourself MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!    -------------   
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 21:24
Speak for yourself, n00b. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 21:28
Aw, look at all the horny proggers, Eleanor Rigby ! You have been unmasked! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 21:31
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This thread had an interesting topic before it veered toward lying. o:) here's one more I thought of: lappy's a total recluse and has reportedly been working on a single album for over a quarter of a century. ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 22:30
who's lappy, for Christ sake? besides, i dont like, just like hookers -------------
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Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 22:44
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Lock me in a room with money and instruments,i miss the 70's ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 22:46
wasnt that at a zappa gig? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 22:54
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It wasn't a studio that got burned down, it was a gig (indeed it was the Mothers playing). It didn't at all affect the band's ability to record the album, it was just a memorable experience. The only inconvenience it was to the band was that they lost their favorite gig in the city.
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Posted By: Apsalar
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 02:51
| I know much of Japan's minimalist music has been influenced to some extent via venues one in particular, not exactly prog (I know) but this is one of the only examples I could think off. 'Off Site' which is one of their main recording/concert venues is situated in a densely populated apartment area, abutting many local residences. Because of this they took a very quiet approach to their playing in avoidance of numerous prospective complaints which would have been the resultant of run ins. In hindsight this has caused the players to be very thoughtful of the notes, tone, timbre they play and in my opinion has produced some of the most interesting music of the last decade. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 02:59
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I think I read somewhere that Peter Hammill didn't listen to much music before recording, because he didn't want to be influenced by anyone. It may have been someone else though. Non-prog, but The Band stayed at Big Pink. Plus wasn't it Amon Duul II that lived in a hippy commune in Germany? -------------   
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 04:50
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Logan: I think that's too bad indeed, that the conditions have changed. The band Yes, for instance, were left alone to experiment. Laplace: yes, Robert Fripp was one of the more active thinking musicians. He disbanded KC before it could become a super group, and he was really thoughtful from 1974 to 1981 in terms of his own musical environment. I think most people couldn't follow his way of thinking, but I think time has proven him to be right. CCVP: I tend to disagree with you to a certain extent. Of course individuality is a factor. Some people like to write songs from 9 to 5, and some others prefer creative chaos. But I think, on the other hand: the classical musicians you mentioned couldn't have blossomed in just any other age. I do think that some great masterpieces of prog wouldn't have been written if the group members didn't lock themselves up in a house, and that there would be more prog master pieces if that would happen again. Artists are exposed to soon (or do that themselves through MySpace) and I think often they need time to develop something original. Tszirmay: Interesting, I didn't know that from Jethro Tull. One more of the classic bands who did that! James: Martin Orford (IQ) once said: some musicians need to listen to every other possible music, for their compositions, others only listen to themselves. Nice to know that Peter Hammill belongs to the latter category, I didn't know that from him. As it comes to Amon Düül: I think both bands (I and II) were in the commune. One more band. Non-prog: the Dutch CCC Inc. (experimental folk) were also in a commune. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 05:14
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Gong lived in a commune in a cottage in France. According to rumour Magma used to live in a house which you were only allowed to enter if you wore black clothes. 
-------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 05:18
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Moogtron, I don't know if Hammill did... I read it somewhere, but I may have accidently attributed it to him. Obvious they do hear some music, but when they're recording, they deliberately shut themselves off from other music. Remember, VdGG toured with Genesis and Lindisfarne, so they definitely didn't want too many influences creeping in. As far as I'm aware, Hammill didn't listen to Genesis... infact, when they were on stage, I believe the band members of VdGG deliberately made themselves scarce.
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 06:21
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Okay. Well, if VdGG did it like that, it's interesting behaviour. I still wonder if Genesis and VdGG influenced each other a bit, because apart from the many differences between those bands, I do see some similarities in the music. But maybe that's just because many bands in those days had something in common, in their ways of making innovating music.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 06:48
According to an interview I once read with either Hackett or Gabriel, I don't remember exactly, "Supper's Ready" was done because VdGG did "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers". ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 08:31
That's also interesting! I always had a theory that Supper's Ready was being influenced by Procol Harum's In Held Was In I: both are serious songs with 'cosmic implications', so to say, but a bit tongue-in-cheek and with some sort of comic part in the middle of the song (Teatime At The Circus and Willow Farm). But I never thought before about A Plague Of Lighthouse Keepers as an influence for Supper's Ready. It also has the almost existential content, and VdGG did it already in '71 of course.
More and more I get the impression that Genesis did try to be original, but didn't consciously withdraw themselves from outside influences.
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Posted By: Vonn
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 08:49
| Well Pelican and Russian Circles are from Chicago. What's in the drinking water there that's making such great instrumental prog bands? |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 09:21
They are drinking the water off the shores of the Great Lake:
"When the ebbing tide retreats
Along the rocky shoreline It leaves a trail of tidal pools In a short-lived galaxy Each microcosmic planet A complete society" Its all the little bugs effecting their brains.
Sorry, it was the first thing that came to mind. This probably belongs in the bad joke thread.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 09:27
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Didn't the hippies put LSD into the Chicago water supply in the late 60s? We see the result today!
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 10:17
If you're locked in a room, what good is money? ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 11:45
------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 14:10
The isolation may have been essential to some but, as said by Goethe: "education is built in the quietness of a class room and the character on the chaos of life". Rick Wakeman during the 70's kept producing masterpieces with Yes and with himself alone with such an intense writing rate that he had a heart attack at the age of 24 (part of that responsibility, however, was because of the crazy studio demands and Wakeman's alcohol abuse), Dream Theater's masterpieces were written during their most difficult part of their lives (images and words were mostly written when the band had a vocalist problem and they almost disbanded, awake were made with strong creative problems with Kevin Moore, metropolis part 2 was made in yet another almost disband phase, being the 6 degrees the only exception to the rule) as well as Pink Floyd made wish you where here after a long and fruitless session of experimental music (the experimentation was to try to make music like Roger's solo album sounds from the body) and probably Yes on their early years (yes album, for example) when they where so poor that Jon Anderson had to work for food. However, the sound of silence may be indeed a big factor, but the individuality factor, such as personality and the part of the writer's life that was lived during the writing process is still a strong factor to be considered. -------------
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Posted By: fighting sleep
Date Posted: March 22 2008 at 02:27
| Didn't Supertramp retreat to the countryside (not sure where), where they wrote most of the material for Crime of the Century? |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 22 2008 at 04:43
Nice quote from Goethe! I suppose that's true, and the Wakeman example is a good example to a certain extent, though on the other hand he proves my point
 . Rick Wakeman did some masterpieces, with Yes and solo, in the seventies, but I think after that he made an incredible amount of albums, but he would be better off if he would have a different writing environment, and not write so many albums, but just concentrate on a few, and make masterpieces out of them. I think there should be some environment for Rick to canalize his creative abilities. I'm not sure if a 'breeding place', like many bands had in the seventies, would be the best for him, though.But the Dream Theater example is a pretty good example. Yes, it is not my intention to present a stereotype, as if ALL bands should be locked away in a castle or a cottage, but it would be better for SOME bands, I'm sure. Though I know it's just one of those circumstances. Listening habits have changed as well. In the age of MP3 and clips, music is more and more treated as fast food. Just a tendency, again I don't want to make a stereotype out of it.
But thanks, CCVP, for guarding the balance. You're right: the chaos of life could just as well be a creative factor!
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 22 2008 at 18:10
1st of all: thanks for the consideration man, it has been nice talking to you and discussing about the progheads writing processes. It is also good to know that my commentaries were solid enough to make a point. Just another thing: in one of my previous posts i said about Mozart writing process: he would write everything at once, but i was sure that there is a musician nowadays that did just the same, i just could not remember his name, so i preferred not to mention him. Looking at some of my friend's music magazines i found him: Arjen Anthony Lucassen, the gentle giant of progressive metal (i don't know his height, but in all of his videos , when he meets someone, you can clearly see that he is , at least, 20 centimeters higher; so he must be 2 meters high and something), "writes" like that. He don't exactly writes anything because he don't know a thing about musical notation, but he keeps all ideas in his mind and then play them! If the ideas lasted all the way until be played then, as he said, they are good enough to be in the album. -------------
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 22 2008 at 19:01
Nice talking to you as well! Yes, I think you made a good point. I think the breeding places I mentioned definitely have some value, but I agree with you that there's an entire other side of the story, with the Dream Theater story as a good supporting argument.
I read many interviews with Arjen Lucassen, but what you just told me I didn't know. (This is for me, personally, the most informative thread I made thus far. I learned many things!) Actually we're going a bit off topic, but it's interesting nevertheless. On the one hand you have the musical sculptors, the perfectionists who keep cutting and editing and modifying until everything fits, and on the other hand you have the people who are like the Japanese calligraphers: it all just comes out at once, in one moment. Maybe for these people, isolation would be counterproductive. So we won't lock up Arjen Lucassen in a castle
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 14:25
Just for you to know, that interview was an exclusive interview made by a Brazilian guitar magazine so dont feel band if you didn't red it (unless you buy Brazilian guitar magazines; in that cas SHAME ON YOU !)-------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 14:31
Just for you to know, that interview was an exclusive interview made by a Brazilian guitar magazine so don't freak out about it (unless you buy Brazilian guitar magazines; in that case SHAME ON YOU )-------------
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 16:00
I buy them on a weekly basis, as you might expect
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 16:03
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i lol'd
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Posted By: Dreamer
Date Posted: March 28 2008 at 17:46
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Jethro Tull moved out to the woods when writing "Song from the Wood" Yes moved to some farm when doing "Tales From Topographic Oceans" Gong lived in a French villa surrounded by forests and did plenty of drugs and other odd things during the Gnome trilogy records. Its certainly not uncommon! |