Free Will
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Topic: Free Will
Posted By: Logan
Subject: Free Will
Date Posted: March 17 2008 at 17:50
Replies:
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 17 2008 at 17:59
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(lappy: no scholar) I like Wyatt's more introspective approach to it all. I'm often aware that I'm not aware of my options and I can tell that some of my opinions are random, default or hereditary. I believe he touches on both of those points. PS, neato "versus" thread. o;) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 17 2008 at 18:35
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Actually, I've always liked that bit in "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency" where Dirk hypnotises Mike, or Mark, or whatever he was called, to jump into a canal when he mentions a certain word, and once he does, Dirk asks him why he did what he did and he can formulate a perfectly reasonable and entirely fictitious response. I know that's only a little relevant, but in that character there is a lot of me. o:) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 17 2008 at 19:22
I love that book. My first attempt at a novella was heavily inspired by it. Mine is a poor post, as I can't concentrate well, but what is also interesting, as I recall, is that Dirk later on told Richard that we can be influenced to do certain things that we wouldn't normally do, and then rationalise those actions that were effected by others, but we won't do, or it's much harder to get someone to do, something that goes against a person's character. External factors effected his jumping in the canal, but his disposition allowed it. We feel the need to rationalise the apparently irrational, and it can become a lasting fiction we truly believe in. We feel the need to make sense of things and ourselves -- when we don't see or understand the determining factors that causes us to act in some, generally unacceptable (in particular) way, we are liable to construct. I know people who have done selfish, hurtful, stupid or embarrassing things, and have rationalised it in an absurd manner, but I believe, in some cases, that they believed those rationalisations (or came to believe them later), even though the initial motivations behind the action were clearly different. Can be a way of dealing with guilt or embarrassment -- some rewrite history and it becomes their truth. I loved how Richard made sense of his actions where he didn't think it odd at all -- a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Bringing meaning, making sense... We like to be in control of ourselves, but in my view, we're controlled by causal chains (which includes disposition and environmental factors). |
laplace wrote:Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 17 2008 at 19:29
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You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill; I will choose a path that's clear I will choose freewill. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 17 2008 at 19:40
^Now I hope you're not just saying that as a Rush fan.  Incidentally, Laplace, just thought of this are you named after Simon-Pierre Laplace? From wikipedia
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 17 2008 at 19:50
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I did take my name from his, but I did it while I was in a strange mood - I was fixating on black holes, despite knowing nothing about them, and wondering at the profundity of suggesting their existence. I hadn't really been aware of his philosophical work because, as I said, I'm no scholar... Plus I like the way the name sounds. =) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 17 2008 at 20:00
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[QUOTE=Logan]^Now I hope you're not just saying that as a Rush fan. [QUOTE] No. I listened to the other song. I like Rush's Freewill better. But the other song wasnt bad. Is it worth it checking out more by Robert Wyatt?? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 17 2008 at 20:49
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I was just kidding around. I like Robert Wyatt very much (Rock Bottom would be my recommended album), but this isn't meant to be about the music, it's about the ideas expressed in the lyrics -- whether one is determinist (our will is bound by causality (causal chains) -- all events are caused by events external to the will), libertarian, libertarianism is also called incompatibilism (believes that will is free of causal chains that force our choices -- our consciences dicatate our decisions), or compatibilist, also called soft determinism (determinism does not rule out free will -- despite causal chains, our minds can freely choose a course of action -- we can break free of those causal chains.) There are many variances to consider (different views), and part of it is about defining what free really means in this case. Here's a link that explains it better than I can right now: http://www.helium.com/items/617200-ability-choose-option-chooses - http://www.helium.com/items/617200-ability-choose-option-chooses Basically, I don't believe in truly free will. To quote some of what i said in a link, but even that requires further clarification. Due to causal chains, due to our heredity and environment, our "decisions" are forced. We think things through (weigh up), but internal and external influences force the resolution, ergo it is not truly "free" will. In becoming aware of the forces that cause us to choose, it may seem that we can effect a new causal chain by making choices that go against our temperament, but that choice would also be determined by factors out of our control. For instance, we are forced to see a psychiatrist for beating our children, and he eventually convinces us that our desire to beat our children regularly is caused by a troubled childhood. He also links our beatings with alcoholism. He trains us to eschew alcoholism and to stop beating the children. This training causes us to act in a different way, but whether or not we accept the training is beyond our control. It is dependent upon the efficacy of the psychiatrist’s intervention, as well as our natural inclinations; for instance, whether or not we feel guilt over the beatings, and, therefore, want to change. Even the causal chains that have led to our awareness force our hand, and, therefore, our will is never free, as I see it. So, what I'm really asking is, which lyrics best express your feelings on free will, or lack thereof, and why? In your case, what is it about Peart's expressed ideas on free will that is more compatible with your views than the other? generally speaking, I have an issue with Peart's Randian philosophy, and Wyatt's which comes from a socialist and humanist tradition tends to suit me better (course I like his wry sense of humour too). EDIT: I had almost considered including Yes' "Owner of a Lonely Heart" (sure there are lots of songs that mention free will) for fun, but free will is not really the theme of that song: ... Watch it now The eagle in the sky How he dancin' one and only You - lose yourself No not for pity's sake Theres no real reason to be lonely Be yourself Give your free will a chance You've got to want to succeed Owner of a lonely heart... |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: March 18 2008 at 02:45
All I knew him by was LaPlace transforms in Diff EQ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace_transform - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace_transform Damned useful for solving some 2nd order differentials, though the the roots of the fractional equations that usually result can be difficult to determine.  |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 18 2008 at 14:50
| ^ I have an aversion to mathematics. I love the precision and conciseness of equations, but my thinking is too convoluted. I'm like the Higgledy-piggledy Boson particle I think said aversion came about in high school when I tried to penetrate the math circle... Maybe it was pi in the sky thinking that I could somehow fit in, but I ended up with a radial fracture. A pi in the face (hair or cream) would have been better. |
Posted By: darksideof
Date Posted: March 18 2008 at 15:25
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I never heard Waitt's song so I go with RUSH.... ------------- http://darksideofcollages.blogspot.com/ http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/ https://www.facebook.com/pages/Darksideof-Collages/ |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 18 2008 at 16:03
To clarify, I'm not asking about the music, I'm asking about the words. I provided lyrics for both (see the links for full lyrics). I also provided links to the songs on youtube. Not because of the music per se so much, but because listening to the words being sung (intonation etc.) can sometimes help to better understand the meaning and attitude behind the words. The poll question is not really asking which lyrics you think are better either, instead I am asking which comes closer to your feelings on free will. Are you a determinist, libertarian, compatibilist...? Rush takes a libertarian stance on free will. Wyatt's "free will within certain limitations" is on the compatibilist (i.e. soft determinist) side (see my former post on this). As a determinist (hard determinist) and a materialist, Wyatt's lyrics are better suited to my views on "free will." EDIT: Perhaps a discussion on free will is not that appropriate for this music forum, but I did think this would be a possibly worthwhile diversion from all of the which song, which album, and which band is better polls. Not the best idea for a poll, but I thought it might be an interesting approach. Was thinking about doing a series of polls about lyrical themes... |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 18 2008 at 16:12
What can I say?
Demented forces push me madly round a treadmill. 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: March 18 2008 at 18:07
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Wyatt, both because I happen to agree (broadly) with his point of view and because it's a better song.
------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Apsalar
Date Posted: March 18 2008 at 22:18
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Determinism for me, hard if twas not too bold to say so, but this hasn't always been the case. As a younger person (tho' I still be young) with less experiences under my belt I was of a polar opinion, I actually remember been quite horrified by determinism upon first encounter partly because my feeble mind was interpreting the ideas more in relation to defeatism. I think this reaction demostrated well the state of mind I was in at the time. So I guess it is Wyatt. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: March 19 2008 at 01:23
Wahahahahahaha!  |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: March 19 2008 at 01:31
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Rush Rush Rush!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 19 2008 at 07:46
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I kinda figure Rush would win this one just because there is a bigger contingent of Rush fans here than Wyatt fans. Snakes and Arrows has over 60 reviews so far, Comicopera just has three. Also, aren't Neil's lyrics really more on topic of the subject of free will than Robert's anyway?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 19 2008 at 10:00
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I've never heard Wyatt's song, while of course I know Rush's by heart. However, in many ways Wyatt's lyrics appeal to me more, since I happen to share his 'soft determinist' stance. As a matter of fact, I find libertarianism quite abhorrent in many ways - I generally call it 'God complex', and I see it as leading directly to social darwinism. Personally, I think our will can influence what happens to us only up to a point there are undoubtedly factors beyond our control. On the other hand, I believe that 'hard determinism' can lead people to be far too passive, and adopt the stance (which I hate) of 'nothing can be done about it'. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 19 2008 at 15:06
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A very well presented response, Raff.
I agree that hard determinism can lead people to be too passive because they
become fatalist, and there is no moral responsibility (since external forces
force our hand, and all actions are in essence pre-determined due to
unbreakable causal chains, we cannot set our course, so que sera sera, whatever
will be will be -- powerless in the face of forces beyond our control... Why
did you choose to break the law? External forces made me do it.) I have
the same problems with the libertarian philosophy too. Very well said. Slartibartfast: Both songs are on the
subject of free will (determinism -- to what extent? --, or self-determination)
but take different approaches. Causality is key... How free are our
actions and decisions from forces that are beyond our control (causal chains
that bind us, how do they bind us. Are we free agents?). This goes on much longer than I had wanted,
but I'll post it anyway (though i should edit my thoughts down). I feel that free will is a delusion… People
rationalise, and play semantics games with what free will truly means as
well. I do believe that our actions are determined by causal chains that
are out of our control (A causes B causes C… haha, what causes A then?
Not to get into a first cause discussion). Now I wouldn’t phrase it in
the fanciful way “demented forces push me madly round the treadmill” because I
believe in a rational universe, and am more prosaic than poetic. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I
expect that many people deceive themselves into believing that their decisions
are free from causal chains that result in a necessary action because this
gives them a sense of empowerment. It is uncomfortable to think that all
of our actions and choices are determined by hereditary and environmental
factors; that in any given circumstance our decisions are fixed by our past
experiences, environmental stimuli, and our genetic makeup. However, I
believe that forces beyond our control fix our decisions – and I’m inclined to
say that we cannot alter those forces anymore than we can change the laws of
gravity. But I offer my own qualifiers to help help empower me.
Whether I contradict myself is fine for me. I’m a materialist essentially,
but I still believe in moral responsibility. In becoming aware of the
forces that cause us to choose, it may seem that we can effect a new causal
chain, or alter our course, our fate if you will (self-determination) by making
choices that go against our temperament, but that choice would also be
determined by factors out of our control by my way of thinking. There is also a compatibilist (soft
determinsist) idea out there that there is a distinction between immediate
“internal” and “external” causes which "saves" the idea of freedom
(agency). A deterministic view is taken that all actions are
completely determined by causes, including internal and external causes, but
internal (psychological, physiological) causes are thought of as free because
there are no outside forces at work. Really this a semantics argument for
me. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me (mind you, it is argued
intelligently). Because I believe that our internal reasons for action,
being determined by past external events and heredity, are so enmeshed within
the external that the two cannot be sufficiently, or indeed at all, separated
to accept the notion of free will. Outside forces do not work on us in a
vacuum, they work together with our internal training, and physiology, to determine
our actions. As to the libertarian (theory of agency)
stance (well there are different camps there), I have some fundamental problems
with it. While both determinists and libertarians accept that causal
chains exist, libertarians are compelled to advance the vague idea of a self
that can somehow transcend causal chains. Occam’s razor, y' know, the
idea that utilising the minimum number of necessary assumptions is best… I’m
inclined to believe that hard determinism is a better view because it is simpler.
It dispenses with unknowable metaphysical notions, and presents what is
empirically evident; that there are causes behind all actions and decisions. Soft
determinism is problematic for me because it is illogical to associate free
actions with a causal chain that always leads to an inevitable action.
The libertarian notion that there are causal chains, which can be broken
through careful deliberation, is also problematic. "If you choose not to
decide, you still have made a choice." What causes us to carefully
deliberate, and come to a conclusion? Surely we deliberate because we
have been trained not to come to a hasty conclusion when matters are of
importance. Our conclusion is dependent upon our weighing up the pros and
cons, the pros being conducive to our desires, which are determined by various
psychological and physiological factors. If we did not deliberate we
might come to a conclusion different from a conclusion arrived at with
deliberation, but our caused conditions dictate the extent to which we
deliberate, and, therefore, determine our decision. I’ll be the roundabout. Therefore, it is unnecessary in my view to resort to vague metaphysical notions of the self in order to explain the process of deliberation. Not that important to the discussion, but I also believe in, let's say semi-conscious and sub-conscious decisions. That our conscious mind is acting in coordination with our sub or semi conscious mind (I do believe in internal and external factors when it comes to deliberation and execution). We consciously deliberate and these facets of our mind effect resolution (we we react in any given situation). The subconscious is "programmed," if you will, and the "conscious mind" is being affected by external and internal factors. Still not free will. But if one believes in "free will" as a concept can depend on how one defines it. Rather like some of the categories at this site, ;), we can define things into existence. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 10:31
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Bumping this Philosophy 101 type old poll of mine to get some new perspectives (remember, you're not voting for which act you prefer or which song appeals more musically, but which lyrically appeals the most to your thoughts on free will. The lyrics are in my original post, but here's the music for anyone not that familar with both: If you can think of any other songs which relate to the subject of free will, determinism (soft and/or hard determinism), and compatibilism, please mention them. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 10:34
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Bumping this Philosophy 101 type old poll of mine to get some new perspectives (remember, you're not voting for which act you prefer or which song appeals more musically, but which lyrically appeals the most to your thoughts on free will). One seemed to have misunderstood my poll question. The lyrics are in my original post, but here's the music for anyone not that familiar with both: If you can think of any other songs which relate to the subject of free will, determinism (soft and/or hard determinism), and compatibilism, please mention them. By the way, while I remain a hard determinist, I still believe in a sense of moral responsibility (and I also would not describe myself as a moral relativist). |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 10:48
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------------- |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 10:59
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Thanks, I didn't know that music at the time, or not well enough to have a take on the lyrics (I do like the album In Camera). While I consider it to be kind of a boring subject these days, it would be interesting to know what people's thoughts are on free will. Here are Hammill's lyrics: They say we are endowed with Free Will - At least that justifies our need for indecision But between our instincts and the lust to kill We bow our heads in submission They say that no man is an island But then they say our castles are our homes; It's felt the choice is ours, between peace and violence... Oh, yes, we choose, alone? While the comet spreads its tail across the sky It nowhere near defines the course it flies Nor does it find its own direction Though the path of the comet be sure Its constitution is not So its meaning is possibly more Than the tracing of a tail In one brief shot at glory Love and peace and individuality So order and society are man-made? War and hate and dark depravity Or are we slaves? Channeling aggressive energies The Death Wish and the Will to survive Into finding and preserving enemies Is that the only way we know that we're alive? In the slaughterhouse all corpses smell the same Whether queens or pawns or innocents at the game; In the cemetery a uniform cloaks the graves Except for outward pomp and circumstance There is a time set in the calendar When all reason seems barely enough To sustain all the shooting stars: Times are rough I'm waiting for something to happen here It feels as though it's long overdue... Maybe a restatement of yesteryear Or something entirely new And the knowledge that we gain in part Always leads us closer to the very start And to the founding questions: How can I tell that the road signed to hell Doesn't lead up to heaven? What can I say when, in some obscure way I am my own direction? That's interesting. I haven't given the lyrics too much thought. What is your take on it? I find it rather interesting to compare what I wrote before, "I expect that many people deceive themselves into believing that their decisions are free from causal chains that result in a necessary action because this gives them a sense of empowerment" with Hammill's "They say we are endowed with Free Will -- At least that justifies our need for indecision, But between our instincts and the lust to kill, We bow our heads in submission." EDIT: By the way, this probably would have been better suited to General Polls or General Discussions as this is not about the music but about the lyrics and ideas associated with the lyrics. |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 11:11
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Existential Hammill at its best! man, I love that song. Fears, wars, social inequalities, the good vs evil endless battle etc One line perfectly sums it up for me: It's felt the choice is ours, between peace and violence... and since I am my own direction, I'll choose the Wyatt one. ------------- |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 11:17
Thanks, yeah, it's very existential Hammill. And man, he has a real way with poetry and drawing deep.... It is so not banal, unlike the Rush song which I find quite banal. Really glad you brought it up, and for your comments. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 11:17
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Freedom is a just a human construct, as is determinism. I am
neither on one side nor on the other. We can perceive freedom on one
level, question it on another level, and question that question on even
another level. |
Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 13:04
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Sorry Bob, I love you and Soft Machine more than Rush. But Rush wrote the better Freewill song! Edit: Oh a discussion on the concept? Just poor on as I go and write stuff a diminishing audience enjoys. Working for me so far! |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 13:30
Yeah, the poll is an accessory for the free will discussion (it's not terribly deep, but still a little deeper than most topics with polls in this forum). I was interested to know why the lyrics of one song better fits one's own ideas on the notion of free will. The Rush one is not better for me partially because I don't believe in free will (certainly in the way that I frame it). If you have a libertarian view of agency, then the Rush lyrics will more likely appeal to you. And if one isn't familiar with the arguments for free will, determinist, and compatibilist views, then I would think that one's been living one's life under a rock -- a rock such as this: And if anyone here can't get that reference, I'll be quite sad.
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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 14:01
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I'd hit that ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 14:16
My pleasure. A lyricist of the highest caliber indeed. My english is far from perfect and i am constantly learning while listening to this guy. I'm often reaching for the dictionnary, and even if I don't always get some words, the general meaning is often pretty clear with him. The timeless 'Comet' is one of his very few old songs that is almost always on the set-list, even to this day. Fascinating to think that if you've been to PH concert during the last 45 years, chances are very good that you've heard it (saw him 4 times and he played it each time). ------------- |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 17:36
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Shur, why not... ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 17:43
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I've never really listened to the lyrics of either song enough to know what they say in comparison to what I think about the subject.t ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 12 2019 at 19:10
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I voted the Wyatt because I've never heard it. On the other hand, the Rush song, a tune so many here grew up on and know like their mother's cooking, is a gentle but biting commentary on organized religion which as an Independent I'm all for. However, that is not to say I would want to see other peoples' institutions be abolished-- not at all, and actually think anyone should be able to worship as they see fit because it can be so important for general peace, sanity and well-being in their, and therefore the rest of our, lives. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |