Abolish Neo Prog as a genre?
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Topic: Abolish Neo Prog as a genre?
Posted By: stonebeard
Subject: Abolish Neo Prog as a genre?
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 01:49
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"Neo Prog" is primarily an outdated term applied to 80s bands after punk and disco, and was used at that time. But now, it bears no relevance, and is contradictory to a function of ProgArchives--namely that bands should be categorized according to sound and not according to time period or national movements. Now, many Neo Prog bands have the same sound (I'll get to that in a minute) but this is an ad hoc adjustment to justify the misnomer of the name. Therefore, the name applied to this music needs to change. But what is this music? What baffles me sometimes is how people draw the line between modern "symphonic" prog and modern "neo prog." No one has properly explained A) how the bands in this genre are symphonic in nature and B) why it is even appropriate to apply a classical concept to rock music. it seems to me that Neo Prog has been narrowly defined by the sound of the bands in the 80s, even though the term implies a time period and not a sound. It seems blatantly obvious that Neo Prog has been defined as having a guitar-bass-keyboard-drums-singer style, and that any variation in this setup will result in an "upgrade" (or "reclassification" if you want your truth without the unsaid meanings). How else can one justify Spock's Beard as symphonic if not because they use an organ from time to time? As the situation is now, Neo Prog is thought of as a second-class genre if not outright treated as one. Some things you just can't change. Some people will think anything that is memorable is not prog enough, and some don't like their prog to have any solidified beat or keyboards. But Neo Prog is a sham of a genre right now, and it is because of the narrowly defined requirements of it. It just so happens that these requirements aren't enjoyed by many prog fans, and so it's an easy target. From where I'm sitting, I see no really good reason to have Neo Prog and Symphonic prog separate genres. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Replies:
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 01:56
| I say split it in half. The proggier half goes to symphonic, the other to prog-related. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 01:58
| ouch.. I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 02:05
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Atavachron wrote:Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 02:08
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I think no change should be made. I would say the "neo prog" name really defines a style, doesn't it? I mean, i have like 30 neo-prog cds (as categorized by PA), and I can easily tell them apart from the more than 50 I have from symphonic prog... Maybe it's because of the genre-names that my brains is influenced and makes the connection, but I honestly think differences can bemade.
Word by teh experts? ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 02:11
| I have to agree with David here. This would stir up the proverbial hornet's nest.... Not that what you say is wrong, but I'm afraid it could cause a sort of domino effect. Anyway, everyone has the right to offer suggestions.... Let's see what others have to say, hoping we can keep it civil. |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 02:13
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My solution is (and always has been) to abolish the whole concrete genres things and implement the tag system. That way, everybody is happy and no one has an excuse to argue about anything.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 02:15
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^ Though I'm not sure what the real movers and shakers are planning, I speculate that since so much work has gone into the creating and reorganizing of the genres here, they will never be abolished.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 02:21
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I think Neo is to Symphonic as Zeuhl is to Avant. It's a distinct style that could fit in the larger genre but is distinct enough to stand on its own. -------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 02:47
The phrase "Neo Prog" has been used for about two decades ... Marillion are a Neo Prog band, why try to undo history? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 03:37
| I have never considered Neo-Prog as simply defining a time period. For me, it has its own distinctive sound and style which, while having similarities with Symphonic, is significantly different. |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 03:45
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Prog Archives didn't invent Neo Prog like it came up with Crossover Prog (and, might I say, in a way and regarding the name, even Eclectic). Neo-Progressive music is referenced "overall" as both a period and a very distinct style of progressive rock music. So I'd let it stay. As a reviewer and progger, I do have my mind set on finding a band/a music neo-prog (as T tried to mention), which means I recognize some stylistic and properly "genuine" qualities in that music. The thing of considering Neo-Prog second class is either a prejudice (out of a "shallow" dislike, I mean), either a comparative attitude, in regards to the "classic' period of prog-rock, which mainly explored symphonic prog, art rock, psychedelic and finally some RIO stuff, down the late years. The definition of neo-prog here itself describes how the orientation opened to lush keyboards, more melodic or dynamic inspirations and such, which can only mean we're talking about a style that, even if descended from another one, still bares a good health of a style. ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 04:12
| ^ what he said |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 07:20
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One small observation that should not be over looked is that Neo Prog appears to be undergoing a minor revival at the moment with several of last years highly-rated albums coming from this sub, which suggests to me that the bands are not defined by an era or even simply stuck in the 80s.
Eric, Iván and HT's recent (and praiseworthy) clean-up of the sub has resulted in a more coherent grouping of bands that goes beyond being neo-symphonic, since the remaining bands draw influence from modern sounds and styles and clearly show that modern Neo Prog is not forever harking back to earlier periods and is forward looking, current and vibrant. As moreitsythanyou stated, Neo is (related) to Symphonic, but that does not necessarily make it Symphonic.
It would be impossible to pick any single band that typifies Neo Prog and place them into a parallel subgenre, be that Symphonic, Eclectic or Crossover, since they contain musical traits that would probably preclude them from those subs (ie the very traits that put them in Neo in the first place). It is not just the purity of Neo or Symphonic that must be regarded, but of all subs, each of which have their own definitions and clear delineations. Admittedly there are some crossovers into those subs, but most of those have already been adressed and moved.
And sorry, Prog Related is not a viable option for bands that "survived" the clean-up unless it can be clearly demonstrated that their inclusion as a 100% Prog Rock band was a mistake that was overlooked during the clean-up. Which is not to say it cannot happen, just not for 50% of the bands as has been suggested  .------------- What? |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 08:06
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^ I wrote most of the definition we have for Neo Prog, and I'm mulling whether or not it was just a bunch of bullsh*t.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 08:55
t'was certainly appreciated as a new definition, no?  -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 09:22
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Well, let me know before HT, Ivan and myself go any further in cleaning it up. E ------------- 
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 13:53
| Carry on E-dub!! |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 14:00
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I think this is probably not the best forum for this topic, though I easily see why it was moved. This is not a serious suggestion, because I'd be disillusional to think it would actually happen. It's more of something to get people thinking
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 15:14
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 16:50
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I can see both sides of the argument here. Abolishing neo prog does make sense from a strictly logical criteria based upon sound, but historically there have been other reasons for grouping these bands. It'd be like getting rid of RIO, which I would personally support but which would face much opposition. (I think the perfect solution there would be to retain an Avant-garde category and use RIO as a tag.) And I still miss us ditching the historically loaded Art Rock designation.
So I guess I'm sitting firmly on the fence on this one.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 17:26
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you raise a great point Morph... will discuss in private first.. then maybe a poll.... as far a Neo... no way in hell we should abolish it. Simply as that.. We can sashay our way through creating new subs to help draw differences for the fledgling finders of faintly familar, foward-thinking, fabulous fraternities of musical firnament. Removing established sub's.. not just here... but outside of the hallowed hall of Prog-Archives is a bad move. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 17:36
fantastic |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 17:42
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Uhh, what about Canterbury, which refers to a period style? Neo prog may be a period movement, but a very important one. ------------- Hail Eris! 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 17:44
fank you  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 17:49
Neo is that to some... to others it is not.. but a sound.... what the site does... is reflect both views. Everyone is happy. As I noted with regard to Neo... amoung others there.. .it is historical... yet not exclusively so.. yet has a defined sound. Canterbury... is the social security of prog.... is not a sound... but purely a historical one.. yet the person who 'touches' it... would get their drawers run up the flagpole. There is room here at PA's for both musical... historical.. and hybrid grouping. Those who explore just have to be aware of it.. and for the most part ...they are. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 17:54
I'll stay with him for now..  
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 18:23
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Can someone then address these points of contention: 1) The difference between Neo Prog and Symphonic Prog. 2) Why Spock's Beard is Symphonic and not Neo. 3) Why (an observation) Neo Prog seems to be narrowly defined sonically (limitations on sound, instrumentation) whereas Symphonic in particular seems to have no limitations on instrumentation (refer to my original post if yer confused). ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 18:49
just as confusing as many other genres & sub-genres. Some seem very easy to pin down, such as Krautrock, or Zeuhl; then you hear another group within those genres (Magma vs Dun) and wonder why they are even mentioned in the same breath. I suppose the best way to go about it is to use that timeworn phrase - I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I hear it ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 19:50
The ZART is currently working on a tagging-based system of organizing our Avant-prog bands. -------------   |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 20:14
In reference to 2: They play a style that is firmly based in the symphonic music of the 70s...not derived from it...at least their initial albums. There most recent is an intersting blend of two, with songs that fit both symph and art rock (which category of art rock you'd like ). Honestly, in comparison with IQ, Marillion, and other neo bands, theres not a lot of similar sounds...at least for me. Sure, maybe every once in awhile, but overall they are much more symphonic in sound (like the flower kings, the tangent, and the other more modern symph bands).------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 21:31
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Now, don't go all ballistic on me, but here is what I think. Neo exists mainly for the reasons Stonie brought up. It was "new prog' when the next breed took it over in the '80s. It was, in actuality, an evolution of classic symphonic prog. The base was already being laid by Steve Hackett, Anthony phillips, Genesis (Trick of the Tail, and W&W), and Yes (Drama). When symphonic came back in the '90s, it was more of a return to the original sound. However, things evolve. As time has gone on, the line between Symph and Neo has become more blurry. Bands like Pendragon, and Wobbler are easy separate. On the other hand, it has become very hard to draw the line with the likes of Nexus, Spock's Beard, IQ, and most recently Discipline. In the big picture, Neo is really a subdivision of symph. Neo-Symphonic would be a more accurate label. The problem is that the sub-genre is too well entrenched in the prog world view to change it. So, what are you going to do? We just make the best decisions we can about what goes where. It does help having the two teams combined now. We work very well together, and have plenty of discussion when it comes to sorting this out. Eric is the man when it comes to Neo, and his judgement should be trusted.
And as far as relegating it to PR, are you nuts? This is all prog my friends. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 22:07
There is nothing in PA's definition of symphonic prog that would necessitate Spock's Beard be in that genre any more then Neo prog. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 22:11
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Before I go further, I will answer the questions as well as I can:
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 23:07
Ahh...see I was going mainly on sound, not the PA definition.
Though reading over the two definitions, I think there is a slight edge to symphonic using the considerations in the list under symph, and that paragraph before the 80s in neo.
I will admit to them being a border case though...I can see elements occasionally (which I think I said before). ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 03 2008 at 23:31
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Now to the main issue. I believe Stoney problems lie more in the definitions and prejudices of some people. First, as HT I believe Neo Prog is an ambiguous and unhappy term, because Neo Prog represents a branch of Symphonic, not a branch of all Prog as it’s name implies, but we have to understand the situation of the late 70’s. Prog was identified with Symphonic, like it or not, bands as King Crimson who became more experimental or Jethro Tull, were deviations of the rule, nobody cared about sub-genres, if you heard Genesis, it was Prog, Yes was Prog, Jethro was Prog, King Crimson was Prog, Pavlov’s Dog was Prog, everything was Prog, so when the Symphonic decline started, it was logical for people to say Prog was dying, when as a fact, only Symphonic was dying. When a new movement appeared as an opposition to AOR and the iconic bands becoming POP, people said, “Hey, Prog is being reborn”, so the name Neo Prog was coined, when as a fact bands like Marillion should had been called Neo Symphonic. But what surprises us? Names have always been wrong:
And I could go for hours, but when a wrong name is used too much, it becomes so popular that any change will create more confusion than help to understand. Back to Neo: The genre started as a branch of Symphonic, but the baby grew and showed some strong differences with the root genre, the sound is different, the influences don’t limit to Symphonic Prog, the sound evolves (something Symphonic has only done in the late 90’s and early 00’s), so it’s a well known entity. Neo Prog was created as an alternative, people didn’t wanted more 20 minutes epics, Giant plants, pompous performers in capes, but Progheads wanted Prog, so they believed Neo Prog would be the perfect balance between popularity and Prog, but the project failed, it was too complex for the mainstream listeners and too soft for the people that grew listening Relayer, Larks Tongues in Aspic and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. That’s where the prejudice comes from, old progheads saw Neo Prog bands as bland or light Prog, but there was anew generation that didn’t grew with the classics and embraced Neo Prog as their generation’s music, in some countries as in Poland, Neo Prog is King and Pendragon have Semi-gods status, Japan has embraced it also, son this guys don’t have the prejudice. Pendragon and Marillion is for them, what Yes and Genesis were for the early fans, the kid has grown up, it’s too late to abort him, if somebody has prejudices OK, forget Neo Prog exists, but there’s a lot of people who really love the genre and eliminating Neo Prog would be like mutilating Prog, because it has become an important part of this mess of influences and sounds that we call Progressive Rock and we love so much. Iván -------------
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: March 04 2008 at 01:17
| Dang. I didn't mean to open a can of worms on ths one!!! As much as I'd like to fight Ivan, I agree that Neo-prog should remain a seperate grouping. And I'd love to see the historical Art Rock term brought back. But I do think that RIO would be better served through tagging than segregated into a genre. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 04 2008 at 05:25
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Just for the record: the 'historic' term Art Rock was ditched for a very good reason - not because we woke up one morning and decided we wanted a change. I am very well aware that you can't please everyone, but I wish someone bothered to see the reasons of a team of four people having to deal with a subgenre containing over 400 bands (a number that was steadily growing) as diverse as The Moody Blues, King Crimson and Atomic Rooster.
Edit: No intention of sounding confrontational - I know about the historic value of the term, and I understand the motivations of those who miss the 'old' AR definition. However, many site users had no idea of what it meant, and the consequence was a glut of threads such as, "Why are KC in Art Rock? Aren't they fully prog?". This was frustrating to say the least for those who, like us, spent a lot of time trying to manage an already unmanageable situation.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 04 2008 at 05:51
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Psst! Raff: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46803 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46803 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 04 2008 at 11:36
Hey GOM seem,s that lately despite you like to fight with me, we are agreeing in too many things.
Watch out, we could even end as friends
 Iván -------------
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: March 04 2008 at 18:34
Believe me, you don't want that.
------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: March 04 2008 at 20:54
For the second time: pending M@X's approval, the ZART is going to organize all of the avant bands by a tagging system. ------------- |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: March 06 2008 at 03:17
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