an end to the candy store insight for UK.
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Topic: an end to the candy store insight for UK.
Posted By: Wilcey
Subject: an end to the candy store insight for UK.
Date Posted: February 12 2008 at 07:54
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http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/the_web/article3353387.ece - http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/the_web/article3353387.ece
It looks like the government is considering (at last) putting the lid on the candy jar! The UK government is looking into cutting off illegal files sharers from their internet access, it could be time for a sense of responsibility to return home.
  P-C x
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Replies:
Posted By: Psychedelia
Date Posted: February 14 2008 at 10:55
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this is not a good thing, File sharing allows people to hear music which they would otherwise never be able to do so. It allows poorer people to enjoy music as much as the rich. Furthermore it allows more obscure bands to be heard and enjoyed. ------------- Another emotional suicide, overdosed on sentiment and pride |
Posted By: Bornlivedie UK
Date Posted: February 14 2008 at 13:46
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This is so stupid. If I didn't download music I would only beable to buy one album a month or something (Im poor  ). Ontop of that the local music shops DO NOT stock prog. And if you ask them to order it for you it takes months and good luck EVER getting obscure music.... |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 14 2008 at 15:20
Not a good excuse for illegal downloading. I can't afford a Porsche but I don't go out and steal one. |
Bornlivedie UK wrote:Posted By: Bornlivedie UK
Date Posted: February 14 2008 at 18:29
Even if you could pull an exact copy of the Porsche out of thin air into your garage? I hate when people compare downloading to stealing actual property, it's just not the same thing. I think it's obscene the amount of money alot of musicians have anyway (obviously not all of them are insanely rich, but still).. I downloaded some beatles the other week.. now come on.. Paul Mc Carteny has a fortune of around £800 million, I think he has enough, you know? EDIT: Not to mention all the music I listen to made by people who are DEAD. They aren't exactly gonna miss the money. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 14 2008 at 18:35
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If this thread continues in this direction it will be closed.
5. No Illegal activities. Posts and threads promoting or facilitating file swapping, drug abuse, or any other forum of illegal activity are not permitted. Any such posts will be deleted, and the member warned. ------------- What? |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 14 2008 at 18:39
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I'd probably stop if there was a threat of loss of internet access. However, there is a lot of pigheadedness on both sides of the argument.  The download of a single album can easily be justified.------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Bornlivedie UK
Date Posted: February 14 2008 at 18:44
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Don't the artists only get a small percentage of the money anyway? Id rather pay them all the money directly. If it wasn't for downloading I would probably have never discovered prog or anything. Id still be stuck listening to Nirvana thinking that was the most that music could be. |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: February 14 2008 at 21:12
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------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: February 14 2008 at 23:07
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Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 09:37
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It doesn't matter what the artist gets paid, it isn't up to you to decide that they get paid nothing. If by downloading you stop a copy from being sold, then it is the same as stealing physical merchandise. how about I electronically dip in to your bank account and remove some money? It's not like I took physical currency from you. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 11:57
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the taking of the intellectual property as it were isn't the issue it seems here the problem is that there are many many many many different angles to both sides yet each only sees the other side as having one, and there will be no ground gained from that ------------- 
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 11:58
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also this is nearly impossible to enforce financially
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Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 13:20
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There is no grey area here at all - if you take something that doesn't belong to you, without permission, it is illegal and immoral, it doesn't matter if it is electronic or not. If I use someones picture without permission, I'd be breaking the law as well. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 13:22
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exactly
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 13:30
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I won't bother trying to rationalize. There is a grey area because an artist can be benefited by the download of an album. You may not notice it with the zip files of artist's entire discographies available with an easy click, but it has happened. You may argue that in reality, most people don't repurchase what they download and they may not even bother to buy further music from a band they've downloaded an album from, but make no mistake, the artist can easily lose overall profits if people don't download an album or two by them. If you want to turn down profit for moral virtue, go right ahead. In fact, it would be noble and commendable of you, because it is certainly not in the capitalist tradition. But legal arguments have less sure footing; laws can be changed, but dictating morality is much harder. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 13:33
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there is no grey area because it isn't someone elses decision to make to give away the album, and stats have shown about 8% of illegal downloads convert to an actual sale, so I'd say it hurts sales more than it helps, but this is one of the top 10 common excuses from pirates, that they are somehow helping the band, even though they didn't buy the album and they don't know anyone that did. I'll try to be really clear here - IT IS ONLY THE RIGHT OF THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER TO GIVE AWAY THEIR MATERIAL, IT IS NO ONE ELSES RIGHT. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 13:37
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I'd say the bigger problem in the industry is charging an arm and a leg for 40 minutes of music that's a different discussion however -------------
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Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 13:43
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When I first bought my CD player, CD's cost $18.95 each, now you can get them typically for about $15 or even less. It costs like $4 for a cup of coffee at starbucks. I hardly think CD's are overpriced, you adjust for inflation and they don't cost hardly anything, also I haven't seen a 40 minute CD unless it is a conversion from Vinyl. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 13:47
Well, working at a Prog Rock record label you wouldn't see too many 40 minute albums  but most popular rock music albums fall at about this point, some even under (System of a Downs "Mezmerize" was a mere 36 minutes)
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 13:48
This is not about statistics, this is about an example, and choosing one preference over the other. Is downloading an album justified if the person then purchases that album, or one or two or 10 more? Or is there no possible way to justify the downloading of an album, no matter what the ultimate rewards for the artist/company are? You are for artists and companies controlling their products. OK. As you said, probably somewhat accurately (though there is NO way to trace the example I just gave) only 8% of downloads convert to sales. So, it seems that most downloaders do not follow my example. But this is not about the grand scheme of things, this is about one example with a yes or no answer. And I'll give you a really good example. I downloaded Porcupine Tree's Deadwing and In Absentia and later purchased them both. Not to mention once I go into them by downloading a few albums, I went back and bought almost their entire discography. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 13:55
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This thread about downloads just became the same as every single other. Let's smoosh them altogether and take turns to say zero-dimensional things like "copyright infringement is theft" or "I wouldn't have bought it anyway!" into one single intertube. to progchick - your crusade for Pendragon is well-noted. I was just saying (in a uselessly opaque way) that a victory for you is a defeat for, you know, rational governing and people who are likely going to get hit by the splash damage from this poor proposal. ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: MHDTV
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:03
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I feel sorry for all you who don't download. I don't download anything I wouldn consider worth buying, meaning that if I didn't download, the record companies wouldn't lose money. Me downloading analbum doesn't cost anyone money. What's wrong with it. ------------- Freak yo' swerve |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:08
Ah, so theft is acceptable if the person can afford it then? What about bands such as Pendragon who are really suffering because people download their albums illegally instead of paying for them? And even if the artist is dead, the royalties would go to someone (e.g. a relative) so you're still thieving. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:09
If it's from an illegal site, then it does! |
Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:15
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There are soooo many legal ways to hear material from an album before you buy it. I must have 200 albums that I bought just because I heard a song I liked on the radio, often times there wasn't a lot else I liked on the album initially but over time most of it grew on me, but considering how much enjoyment I get even if only one song, it wasn't a bad investment. I will also state that since progagainstpirates got serious about enforcement, I've seen an increase in my own sales, so I don't think the pro-piracy statement that not allowing illegal downloads will hurt sales holds water. What if the band made the whole album available for streaming at their web site? That would be legal and the band would have control. Try listening to internet radio to discover new songs, my own station has over 21,000 songs on it and you can request any of them to play. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:18
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stupid post upcoming........ -------------
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Posted By: Bornlivedie UK
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:18
It is NOT theft. It would be theft if I went into a record shop and took a CD because I would be taking actual stock which they could sell. All im doing is making an exact copy of the music which isn't going to make the slightest difference to the artist. |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:23
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see people need a way around things around the red tape and classified files that's why they created Metal Gear:  with this they could  Correct....  AAHHA! I AM the one piloting Metal Gear, soon the whole industry will go under, and we'll have WAR AGAIN! It will look like THEY did it!  how could you DO something like this?! wait....you're Big Boss...but I'M Big Boss.... OHSHI-  TIME PARADOX! -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:25
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BigBoss: OK, to save me the trouble of wondering around the internet, could you post your favorite links then. But remember, I have a very limited budget (in fact I can't even really buy CDs at the moment, even though I do ). I buy most of my music off amazon used, which doesn't benefit artists directly after the first purchase. There is a limit to how much I will spend. There is the concept that I remember P-C bringing up in another thread of "doing without" when one just doesn't have the money to buy something. Yes, and in most instances that would be both logical, and hard to get around. But let's please fess up to reality: if I don't have the money to buy a CD, the only harm that could logically come to the artist if I download the album is if I do not buy it at a later date. I should mention the timing of a later purchase should not be very long in a case like this, because it's not fair and for the artist and it just doesn't seem right to finally receive a royalty check 15 years later.An about face: Yes, the whole point of some of my arguments is to justify illegal downloading. People get hung up on the "illegal" word and can't seem to move past it, even for harmless discussion. Illegal downloads are in place to protect the record company and the artist, but it is possible for the record company and the artist to benefit from illegal downloads. It may not be the norm, and it may not be the basis for action, but it has happened and it is possible, and even likely for people who truely love the music and the artist. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:26
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This thread was totally fission mailed until iriquois plisken showed up
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:28
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also nothing offensive is meant by my post, its just me riffing on stupid video game stuff
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Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:41
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Stonebeard, try www.mindawn.com you can listen to any song in full up to 3 times, you can buy a digital download of an album for $6.99. Try www.progrock.com for internet radio to sample music at random. Bornlivedie: another of the top 10 pirate excuses "I'm not stealing a physical copy, I'm just stealing an electronic one" - this is the most pathetic and brain dead excuse I've ever seen. If you didn't pay for it, then you short changed the artist. period. Why don't you give me your bank account number and routing number so I can just take electronic versions of your money. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:48
 I used to love to listen to AOL radio's progressive station. I dunno if it's still there. I used to record the music as I listened to it. It was a laborious process for not that much payoff. I also remember when PA had mp3 downloads, not streams. I have 6 or so mix CDs I listen to from time to time. Brings back good memories, in a silly way.------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Jorvik
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:50
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Peer-to-peer downloading is not illegal. Who decides that the download contained copyrighted material? How will whoever enforces this determine that and what will be the burden of proof? Notice that the wording is "users suspected of wrongly downloading films and music". The article is scant on detail. If this is thought out properly and the powers-that-be investigate their suspicions thoroughly, all well and good. But if this isn't done properly, it is easy to envisage someone being disconnected (and potentially barred from getting a connection from another ISP if that information is shared) merely for having investigated a number of Linux distros, for example. Or CC or GPL licensed whatever, software, music, film. I'm honestly not making a political point here, but the current government is well known for ill-thought out, poorly-drafted legislation that has unintended consequences. ------------- I ljuset från min lykta ser jag skuggan utav sorg drömmar som har slocknat ifrån ett liv som haft sin tid |
Posted By: Bornlivedie UK
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 15:04
Why go out, order a CD, wait months for it only to get ripped off by some record company when you could just get music you want to listen to there and then? Going to all that effort to get hold of music just seems absurd when it's only a couple of clicks away right infront of me. It's a matter of free and easy VS effort, money and a long wait. |
Posted By: tillo
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 15:05
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in Spain (I suppose also in other countries) there is a canon when you buys cds, cell phones, MP3 & MP4 players, pendrives, hard disks..., so the Goverment gets the money in advance, even you buy the cd to store your photo collection you some of the cost is given to the general artist society.
So, in some way they are allowing people to download music or movies from internet. ------------- please, visit http://roberto-land.myminicity.es/ |
Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 15:23
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Bornlivedie - months to receive a CD? Please. Buy a digital download then instead of stealing it. Go to the store and buy it and walk home with it. How is the label "ripping you off" in this case? More like you are ripping off the label and the artist by stealing the music. What a twisted sense of morals you have. I honestly hope one day you have your home robbed or your car stolen so you can experience what it is like to get ripped off, because you obviously have a sense of entitlement. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |