Alternative Prog?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45776
Printed Date: December 03 2024 at 07:13
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Topic: Alternative Prog?
Posted By: Oceansizzle
Subject: Alternative Prog?
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 02:48
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Does anybody else think that there should be a sub-genre entitled Alternative Prog? (or something similar) I dont know how many bands would qualify for it, but the main ones that come to mind are Oceansize, dredg, and Amplifier. Right now Oceansize and Amplifier are stuck in the psychedelic/space rock genre, and while at times they have psychedelic moments, they seem out of place. dredg is in the Crossover prog genre, and that makes sense in a way...but seeing El Cielo next to Supertramp, Mike Oldfield, and The Moody Blues on the crossover prog main page just doesn't seem right. Other bands that I think might fit this category are Aereogramme, Youthmovies, Muse, Pure Reason Revolution, etc. I'm sure there are plenty more that I'm forgetting or don't know about... Anybody have any thoughts on this? Does there need to be more bands like this to make it an official sub-genre? Or is it ok with these bands in seperate categories? |
Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 02:56
they actually fit together quite well if the intention of Crossover Prog is understood as a guide to artists that were not adverse to digestable, even 'commercial' music there would only be a need for a 'Alternative Prog' if the purpose of genres such as Crossover Prog are neglected, and since our Crossover Team is top notch, that seems unlikely  |
Oceansizzle wrote:Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:06
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I'd push again the idea that Alternative Rock influences or even defines some Progressive Rock modern bands. Therefore, an Alternative Prog band could be present in many genres, even Heavy and Eclectic. So a full sub-genre would be a bit too pushed move. A reminder, upon reading the impression of "dredg not fitting next to Oldfield, Moody and Supertramp" is that many genres up here (and especially Heavy, Eclectic or Crossover, might I say) don't focus on a single line of music and artists. So dredg could stick along anyone, if they fit the nature/definition/whatever of Crossover Prog. ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:08
As an 'unofficial' member of the Xover Team  , I can tell you that Micky and Dean have been discussing the possibility for some time now. Indeed, many of the acts that get suggested for inclusion in Xover are nowadays more in the Alt-Prog mould, and some often risk falling through the cracks because they don't really correspond to what Xover was initially meant to be. All I can tell you at this stage is, watch this space... |
Posted By: Oceansizzle
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:18
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Alright, I can understand both of your arguments for dredg being in Crossover Prog. I guess my main point was about Oceansize and Amplifier in the Psychedelic/Space Rock genre. I consider dredg and Oceansize to be very similar, and very often they are spoken of in the same sentence. Maybe an easier solution would be to move Oceansize and Amplifier into the Crossover genre. Although I dont know, it just seems like Crossover is a collection of bands that don't fit anywhere else... |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:25
I am sorry, but I have to very strongly disagree with your last statement. This is what used to be said about Art Rock when it was 'whole', and this was one of the main reasons why we decided to have the three-way split you can see now. The Xover team are very knowledgeable about music, and have it VERY clear in their minds what the requirements for admission are. If a band or artist suggested for inclusion in Xover don't have the necessary connection to mainstream music, they are refused. That said, you can't expect that each and every one of the bands in any given sub be identical to each other in terms of sound. Yes, Genesis and ELP are in Symphonic, yet I would defy anyone to say that they sound the same. As to moving any band from any sub to another, both teams must be in agreement, and it has happened that one team have refused to have a band moved elsewhere. |
Posted By: Oceansizzle
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:45
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I believe I spoke to soon. The more I look into the Crossover description, the artists involved, and the difference between it and Prog-related, the more I understand. Thanks for clarifying! I'm still fairly new here. That still doesn't answer the Oceansize question though. Maybe I should ask one of the space rock collabs. I actually think Oceansize and Amplifier would fit quite well in Crossover if there is no Alt-prog group. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 04:34
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This is something we Collabs can do - post a link to this thread in the Psych/Space team thread, and ask their opinion on a possible move of the two bands. They will of course have to be evaluated by the Xover team before a decision is reached. Don't worry at all about speaking too soon. I do it all the time! After all, as the saying goes, we live and learn... And I think your thread raises an interesting issue that's worth discussing in the main forum. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 05:00
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Thanks for your input, and for raising this issue Oceansizzle - this kind of discussion is most welcome and feel free to continue to add to the debate
 I clearly see Alternative Prog, (or Alt-Prog or Prog-Alt) as an emergent subgenre that covers a broad range of bands that have clear musical links to Alternative Rock. Even though it is possible to argue progressive traces of this back into the previous century, I still think as a Prog genre it is in its infancy and is not fully formed or established with bands coming towards it from different directions, musical backgrounds and heritages - much like Neo-Prog was back in 1978-83. When we get bands that specifically set out to be Alt-prog from the outset I think we can say the subgenre is established - though how you determine that without the benefit of hindsight is a mystery
 . For the present I think we can best serve these bands by putting them into subs that best match the Prog component of their music (eg Eclectic, Heavy, Xover, Neo, Math-Rock, Psyche or Prog Related) rather than accumulate them into a new sub that fits the Alt component of the music (which is likely to be just as diverse) with little or no regard to their specific Prog credentials (after all this is a Prog site
).As has been previously mentioned, in the Xover Team we have identified Alt Prog as being an style of music that fits the spirit of our definition, if not the exact wording. We are looking to change the definition to include it specifically, but this will require a bit more Collab discussion before it can be proposed and finally changed.
The latest Xover addition is an Alt-Prog band from Italy called http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3477 - LA GUERRA DELLE FORMICHE that is a crossover of "Shoe-gazing" Indie Rock and Prog.
As to Oceansize - I don't know their music so will have to listen to them before commenting. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 09:33
| Are you all talking about New Prog? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 09:55
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^ In essence yes, though I think New Prog is an even broader category that includes many Neo Prog and Post Rock bands that you wouldn't necessarily associate with Alt Rock or Alt Prog. ------------- What? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 09:59
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To me, I think that Tool would be the flag bearer for an Alternative Prog genre, especially their earlier work. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 11:06
New Prog...pff...I understand New Age...but the over-use of "New" in prog timeline or even music would be really heavy-off.  -------------
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Posted By: GentleGiant
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 11:41
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I will wait together with my symphomaniac friends the raise of disco-prog,rap-prog,hiphop-prog and all replacement alternatives of progressive rock 
------------- BeGiantForADay "This British band is just the cup of tea for aficionados who demand virtuosity,progress and originality in their mix." http://rateyourmusic.com/~GentleG |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 12:41
 spot on Rico - at least New Age has some longevity to it (well, a couple of millennia at least ) every thing is "new" once in it's lifetime.------------- What? |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 13:51
Time for some fun with this. Alternative name for New-Prog?
Fresh Prog
Cutting Edge Prog
Untrodden Prog
Crisp Prog
Green Prog
Fresh n' Raw Prog
X-Prog
Modern Prog
Dewy Prog
Rejuv'd Proj
Mod Prog
------------- 
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 13:54
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I like to sit back with a glass of champagne and relax to the contemporary sounds of próg nouveau. I do worry that every time a prog genre surfaces it's a case of diminishing returns and I assume the next time this happens it'll be home to bands who are *almost* as prog as Muse or Radiohead. ;P ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 13:55
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I'd go for 'Garden Fresh Prog'! Sounds very healthy and nutritious..... Seriously speaking, 'new' is too much of a relative concept, as is 'modern'. Then, it is too similar to Neo, and it would lead to misunderstandings, especially on the part of people who are not very familiar with the various time frames. |
Posted By: Oceansizzle
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 14:11
I knew there was a big one I was forgetting to mention!
My thoughts exactly. 'New' doesn't offer any description to the sound, just says that it was made recently. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 15:14
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I have even been toying with the idea in Symphonic. A lot of these newer artists are definitely influenced by alternative rock. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 15:38
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well, I remember that when Friede suggested to have the Deep Freeze Mice added they were rejected, and the reason given was that they were an alternative band, not a progressive one, even though they have lots of epics, especially on "I Love You Little Bobo with Your Delicate Golden Lions". so I don't quite see why we should include alternative bands now, unless the policy has drastically changed
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Oceansizzle
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 15:49
If this band truly was an alternative one and NOT a progressive one, that's probably why they didn't get in. There are many bands that are definitely progressive and also have an alternative rock sound. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 15:50
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I believe that the 2007 prog album of the year, PT's Fear of a Blank Planet might just qualify as alternative prog. Radiohead would be another candidate. -------------
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 15:59
well, it seems Friede's and my opinion of the Deep Freeze Mice differed from those of the others. sure, their shorter songs aren't very progressive, but their epics definitely are. and they have lots of them ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 18:42
not radically changed... but evolved... progressed if you will.
a bit of history. Xover prog was concieved with a very narrow purpose in mind. When we split AR... we had bands IN AR who shared a important element. ties with popular music.. ie. The Moodies.. Supertramp ..etc. Popular music being.. of course.. the much pissed upon 'pop music'. Those being the days.. whether you like or respect pop music.. those groups were still artists... Elton John.. a pop artist? sure.. does he compare in ANY way to what are deemed to be pop artists today. Hell no... there was still a musical integrety attached to pop music in that day. That was the road I envisioned Xover being.. a place to put the bands who had pop music elements.. that WERE already in the archives.
being a prog site... things evolve and change.. the biggest being the second best thing ..sh*t... 3rd best hahhaha I've done as a member here. Finding Dean and bringing him on the Xover team. His knowledge of 'modern' music.. FAR exceeds mine and has molded the team to see beyond the original intent of the sub. Now.. instead of having prog groups.. that deserve addition here being pingponged between sub-genres because no will will take them because they don't fit traditionally 'stuffy' and old divisions of prog. They are now potentially have a new home.. popular music influences.. as we found out from our first additions.. are not strictly POP music.. but music that is generally considered to be popular music. Not sure if this helps.. or makes sense. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 18:58
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I like the idea of alt-prog, if it were a genre I could probably make a good case for Smashing Pumpkins to be added, I think they started this style also might finally be able to get Mew added. However I dont think this style has really become a genre yet, right now its a group bands that fall into two catigories but dont have a common sound at all. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 19:00
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it helps a lot, Mike, and though I find myself 'against' a AltProg category at the moment, you and Dean are making an excellent case and, as a colleague, I support your endeavor.. keep it up |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 19:04
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thanks David. I think Dean said it in a post here. if I read it well.. I'm not feeling so hot tonight and about to turn in. There are no plans TO have an seperate Alt-prog sub-genre. There isn't the need for it... down the road?.. who knows. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it I guess hahha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 19:19
| understood ..hope you're feeling better tomorrow |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 19:20
thanks David  .. I'm out. Have a good night.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |