Opeth
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4567
Printed Date: November 29 2024 at 23:18
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Topic: Opeth
Posted By: frenchie
Subject: Opeth
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 08:29
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i am addicted to this band at the mo, and i know they have many fans on this forum. I dont think they have had a single bad album, i love them all but BWP is their masterpiece in my opinion, i'm interested to see what other people think. also the lamentations dvd should be added to the archive. ------------- The Worthless Recluse 
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Replies:
Posted By: Spanky
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 08:47
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Still Life is still my favorite album of theirs.
------------- Coalinga knows how to party. |
Posted By: Radioactive Toy
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 08:51
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deliverance sucks.. exept for a fair judgement.. It's all wilson's fault! -------------  
Reed's failed joke counter: ||||| R.I.P. You could have reached infinity.... |
Posted By: Metropolis
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 09:57
Deliverance is my favourite at the moment,, though ask me another day
and i might say BWP, that Akerfeldt/Wilson combo is
unbeatable 
------------- We Lost the Skyline............ 
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 11:42
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Damnation is very good.Dont like the Death metal growling on BWP! ------------- 
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Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 12:02
| Blackwater Park is a masterpiece, with Damnation and Deliverance not far behind. |
Posted By: alan_pfeifer
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 12:07
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Um, what's a good 1st album from them? I will say that the whole Death Metal Growl turned me off of them, but I do respect the vocalist's ability to change his singing so well. |
Posted By: Keke
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 13:39
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I seriously don't see why people keep quoting Dream Theater as best prog metal band... since frankly, OPETH BEATS THEM ALL. It's one of the best active prog bands existing right now. As far as albums go, every single one of them has memorable songs, but the Deliverance/Damnation pair was the most brilliant up to this day. |
Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 13:55
There is no growling on 'Damnation'. Other than that, go for 'My Arms/Your Hearse' (my favourite), 'Deliverance' or 'Blackwater Park', but you can't really go amiss with any of the others, either. ------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
alan_pfeifer wrote:Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 13:58
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intersting. I thought damnation might be favoured, just dont forget guys that they are a death metal band that want to growl hehe! Its a shame, yet totally realistic, that people are put off the growling. I think they are one of the best metal bands out there, who actually considering trying to appeal to the non metal fans as well! ------------- The Worthless Recluse
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Posted By: diddy
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 14:27
I think, which also associates with Mikael's statements, that Opeth is a Death Metal band and FANS of Progressive Rock, especially Mikael...
And Damnation was a dream coming true, a complete prog album. Furthermore nearly all other albums contain at least prog ingredients (apart from Orchid and My Arms, your Hearse)...
But they're still more Death than Prog...but they definitely ARE prog ------------- If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear... George Orwell |
Posted By: Prog_Bassist
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 14:40
Damnation is the only album I like by them, because of the non-killing-cat-with-rusty-razorblad-death-metal-voice. ------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY |
Posted By: alan_pfeifer
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 17:11
I agree, but as much as I don't like the growl of Akerfelt (sp), I respect the fact that he can actually change between the two very easily and still be able to be understandable. |
Posted By: Darth Nisis
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 19:28
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Damnation is very good, but BWP is their best effort to date from them i Think By the way, when is going to be a new release of Opeth? |
Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 20:30
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Their growling and clean vocal combination just makes them that much more progressive... Its kind of like good(clean) vs evil (growling) The vocals used to bother me but now I can enjoy them just as much as the clean parts. |
Posted By: The Prognaut
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 21:18
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Mine goes to "Damnation"
------------- break the circle reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
Posted By: topographic2112
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 23:58
That's the beauty part of his vocalizations. Even when he does the death-metal growling, you can actually understand what the hell he's saying, unlike, say, the vocalists for Cannibal Corpse or Mobid Angel or any of that other crap. The music is good, but the singers (?) I can do without. As far as Opeth, Damnation is a beautiful album, but I love Blackwater Park. My favorite songs off of that album is "The Drapery Falls." Akerfeldt knows when to sing and when to growl. I'm not too big a fan of it, but for him, I like it, because it fits with the mood and I can understand him and I don't need a translator for it. ------------- "Rock is the medium of our generation." - Yes - "Release, Release" |
Posted By: starofsirius
Date Posted: March 26 2005 at 00:12
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Its a toss up between Blackwater Park and Still Life with Blackwater Park just by a hair. ------------- "I'm in a freefall like a snowflake falling down down down down down." |
Posted By: topographic2112
Date Posted: March 26 2005 at 00:15
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I can always see Damnation as an album that even people who don't like the band can actually listen to without having to hear any death-metal growling. I think it's a beautiful album, with a little help from Mr. Porcupine Tree himself, Steven Wilson, who never does anything short of amazing. ------------- "Rock is the medium of our generation." - Yes - "Release, Release" |
Posted By: billyshears'67
Date Posted: March 26 2005 at 01:04
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OPETH are great live and have released thus far, 7 great albums & 1 great DVD. I'm at a dead-tie with "My Arms, Your Hearse" & "Still Life" as my favorite album of theirs. Basically, these are 2 of the finest metal albums of ALL-TIME! Peace & take care  |
Posted By: chorus of one
Date Posted: March 26 2005 at 01:13
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Damnation is the one I enjoy most, even if it's not their usual style. However it's not really the death vocals that put me off, it's the same boring structure in almost every single one of their heavier songs... |
Posted By: mobuto
Date Posted: March 26 2005 at 04:07
Morningrise |
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 26 2005 at 10:32
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wow thanks guys, this has turned out to be a really cool thread! Poor orchid tho... i prefer orchid to morningrise but i can see how it has been neglected hehe ------------- The Worthless Recluse
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Posted By: sstarless
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 11:15
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Two year ago I could not imagine I would be listening to death metal grunt, but it all changed after Still Life. I am surprised that this album is generally rated lower then BWP, even here among the fans of progressive. Maybe if not the Damnation then Still Life would had a better chans, may be not ------------- Io sono nato libero |
Posted By: Eemu Ranta
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 15:39
Actually I do think both CC's and MA's vocalists possess a pure and brutal growl, and you must also keep in mind that their purpose wasn't poetic lyrics, but brutality. Morningrise is my all-time favourite album, and even if both the band's sound and Mikael's voice have improved with every album since, this piece of art is a product of honest and pure emotions I will late get enough of. I could go on for hours writing superlatives but I'll save that for a review. |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 16:50
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I don't play Still Life very often because I just find it repeats itself too much. |
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 17:17
i havent got into that album yet, the guitar and vocal sound is very different, BRI is perhaps too long for me to tackle. ------------- The Worthless Recluse
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Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 29 2005 at 11:47
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thanks for your comments, i also have to say that i am very impressed with the reviews for Opeth's albums, they are really honest and accurate! Keep em coming! ------------- The Worthless Recluse
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Posted By: Possessed
Date Posted: April 08 2005 at 23:19
| Still Life. |
Posted By: Richardw
Date Posted: April 09 2005 at 11:28
| All their albums are great, but at the moment I particularly like 'Deliverance'. I don't know why it's considered a weak album. I can't stop playing it. |
Posted By: John Gargo
Date Posted: April 09 2005 at 11:49
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STILL LIFE, easily!!!! This band is special to me because it was the first band that I really got into with death metal vocals. I had been apprehensive about checking them out, but the fanatic reviews on Amazon.com and clips from "Face of Melinda" sounded too intriguing. I bought BLACKWATER PARK and fell in love with it. There was a stretch of about a few months where Opeth was pretty much the only band I listened to. Each of their albums each has a distinct feel and mood to it. I soon singled out STILL LIFE as my favorite because the production was crystal clear and it's simply a joy to listen to... the dynamics are the strongest and most blatant on this album. The heavies are REALLY heavy and the acoustics are just sublime. There's also not a bad track on the album, and it has my favorite one of their songs, "The Moor." Great band. |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: April 09 2005 at 12:50
THIS TOPIC SHOULD BE CLOSED!!! ------------- 
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Posted By: Petra
Date Posted: April 09 2005 at 17:01
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I think Philippe should be CLOSED up in a room and be forced to listen to all of Opeth's albums on repeat for a minimun of 3 days I voted for Damnation ( I adore the track Windowpane) but it was a hard choice between that and BWP. ------------- Don't hate me I'm not special like you |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 09 2005 at 17:06
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I don't understand why you think a thread on a band that's in the archives should be closed - it hasn't gone off-topic or developed into a war or anything... |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 07:31
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this band is in the archives...that's a mistake, probably but all right, if some of you want to add some death metal or black metal bands, I'm not the master here
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...I just think that it discredits the sitePosted By: John Gargo
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 10:59
Ladies and gentlemen, elitism at its finest here. THIS is why people write those lists of "Top 10 annoying things prog rock fans do." |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 11:59
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I suspect Phillipe is deliberately playing Devil's advocate, here.
Personally, I voted for Damnation - no surprise there, as it was the album I first saw reviewed in 'Classic Rock'; the review piqued my interest, and Damnation is now definitely in my top 20 all time favorite albums (especially 'in my time of need'). I have to admit, I only have one other of their albums 'Morningrise' which I do enjoy every now and again, although why Akerfeldt wastes such a wonderful voice with the growling is beyond me. Also, I'd thoroughly recommend the DVD 'Lamentations' for the full performance of 'Damnation' plus some of their less, er, subtle songs. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: John Gargo
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 12:14
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And how does one play Devil's advocate without any reasoning to back up a statement. The only claim he has to Opeth discrediting the site is that he doesn't like death metal... in fact, I doubt he's ever even listened to a full album. If he had, he would notice that the band has dominant progressive tendencies. If he wants to make a claim that the band will discredit the site, he needs to back it up, which he hasn't done at all. |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 13:00
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OK, YOU ARE HOPELESS!!!, let's put stuffs as IMMORTAL, MARDUK to satisfy your appetite of prog music...they also play long epic pieces I really tend to disapprove with the way things are turning about progressive music...the term really means nothing today!! -------------
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Posted By: Eemu Ranta
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 13:29
His growling technique is not fully developed on 'Morningrise', but of course any kind of growl is an acquired taste. On the later albums his growl is lower and more 'pure'. Opeth's strength has always been the contrast between brutality and mellowness, and its absence makes me rate Damnation a bit lower than their best albums 'Morningrise', 'Still Life' and 'MAYH', although it's still a very good release. |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 13:31
You don't know what you are talking about little headbanger...I'm sure that you never heard progressive music to tell such absurdities!! -------------
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Posted By: Nacho220
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 13:32
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New Opeth hopefully by the end of the year. They are in the studio right now rehearsing. There are rumors abound that Opeth are signing a deal with Roadrunner records for the new one. I know the promoter at Roadrunner records and she has told me that they were meeting with them a while ago. This is according to http://www.theprp.com - www.theprp.com "Blackwater Run? - mailto:[email protected] - - wookubus My personal favorite is 'Morningrise' for their best, BUT they all come in at a close second. Seeing as Opeth is my second favorite band behind only Genesis I've come to like all of them equally. I've seen them a number of times (7 different times, 4 different states) and saw them on the Damnation tour as well. An absolute treat to see them live! Thanks, Allen Host of ... Somewhere Between Sunrise & Sunset on 88.3FM, WBWC
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 13:38
I'm not bothered one way or the other about Opeth. I like them, but I wouldn't say they were anything like as progressive as they could be. Original, yes (discounting Edge of Sanity and Tiamat, of course!), but only a bit progressive. But they're not even comparable to Immortal or Marduk; certainly they haven't been even vaguely black metal for years. They do tend towards death metal considerably more but even that's a fairly tenuous link. |
Posted By: John Gargo
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 14:24
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Please, go on... this is all quite amusing. Tell me what other music I've never heard... I would like to know myself! |
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: April 10 2005 at 18:07
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Opeth's lamentations DVD has been added to the archives. I sooo want to get it. If anyone has seen it then get reviewing cos it has no ratings so far.. ------------- The Worthless Recluse
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Posted By: cold103
Date Posted: April 12 2005 at 05:21
| I picked Lamentations because the concert on that is the best one I think I've ever experienced so far. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: April 12 2005 at 05:38
I'm afraid Philippe is right! |
Posted By: 46and2
Date Posted: April 12 2005 at 09:58
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Can't
stress it enough. Still Life is their best album IMO. Most
melodic very jazzy not one mediocre song on the record. My
first opeth cd i got.
------------- 
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Posted By: John Gargo
Date Posted: April 12 2005 at 10:23
I didn't know this forum was full of so many assholes... who would have thought that so many people who listen to prog are so closeminded. 
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: April 12 2005 at 11:50
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so you're not close minded cause you don't listen to prog!
you listen to teenage music, which has nothing to do! Go back to your mc donald an coca cola! |
Posted By: John Gargo
Date Posted: April 12 2005 at 12:29
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: April 12 2005 at 13:36
| happy you take it that way! |
Posted By: Debra59
Date Posted: April 12 2005 at 15:29
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Hi I just joined this forum and was glad to see a thread about Opeth. They have got to be one of the best bands around today. I have seen them twice and they are amazing. Lamentations is a good DVD and well worth the small price they are asking for it ! If you like Opeth try Katatonia. I have been deep into symphonic/prog/black metal lately and they are really good and doomy somewhat like Opeth. Debra |
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: April 12 2005 at 15:35
 welcome to the forum debs ------------- The Worthless Recluse
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Posted By: Abbath
Date Posted: April 14 2005 at 00:07
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There is a grand misunderstandning about the band. Too many people hark
on the fact that they balance heavy and soft, which is real nice if its
done really well. I love Opeth's good years (Orchid-Still Life), which is funny because that's when they used the balance to their advantage, when it fit (relatively) well into their songs. Later on, they got sloppy and misused mellow parts and found themselves meandering far too much. They almost became a parody of themselves. It's really all in the melodies and the layering. They are great at overlapping sounds that probably shouldn't be together considering all conventional music theory (very unfocused and disjointed sound) but can put it together by always sort of being off-kilter (it's like they're off by a bit, but they aren't....I'm sure this make no sense to anyone but me). They alos aren't death metal, they're way more doom and prog metal than anything. The growling vocals (which are great) don't make them death metal. Aside from that, I'm done my metal elitist griping. Good band with one SPECTACULAR album (Still Life) |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 14 2005 at 06:14
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I havent heard Opeth as yet, but with all this talk I'll give 'em a go (Prog or not!) ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: April 14 2005 at 06:31
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Taken from OPETH official website!! First bought record: Iron Maiden Number of the beast First bought record: Iron Maiden “Iron Maiden” Look at this, what a big shame!!!! Where are the roots in progressive music?????? -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 14 2005 at 06:47
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And where are Genesis' roots in Prog for example? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: April 14 2005 at 07:00
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My thoughts exactly. Though I probably would have taken three wordy paragraphs to say the same thing. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: musicnerd
Date Posted: April 21 2005 at 12:05
| I'm new to this forum, but NOT new to prog or opeth. I first bought Damnation and LOVED it. Steve Wilson's use of the mellotron is just beautiful. I then found BWP used, and hated the growling. I listened to it for two and just couldn't get in to it. I gave it another chance several months later along with Deliverance. Now I can really appreciate Mikael's growling. They're the only band I can stand to listen to that growls. What do you all think of their lyrics. I think they're pretty dark and cryptic. I've heard some people say they're evil and/or satanic, but I don't think that's the case. I have BWP, Deliverance, and Damnation. Look forward to continued discussion. |
Posted By: Metropolis
Date Posted: April 21 2005 at 12:45
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No, they're not satanic at all. Writing lyrics about death doesn't make your lyrics satanic. ------------- We Lost the Skyline............
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Posted By: musicnerd
Date Posted: April 21 2005 at 13:00
| Yeah, I don't think they are either. I was just saying what I've heard other people say. I wonder how the next album will sound and what sort of direction the lyrics will go. |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: April 21 2005 at 13:09
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Trust me, doom purists would hang, draw and quarter you for saying that |
Posted By: Unifaun
Date Posted: April 21 2005 at 17:37
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yay i really love opeth. My favourite album is Still Life because it has really good mellow and heavy balance in my opinion, some beautiful backing vocals on the moor. The best riffs are on Serenity Painted Death. I may be a cutie girl but i can still listen to death metal ------------- 
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Posted By: Idioglossia
Date Posted: April 21 2005 at 19:36
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Hi everyone new to this forum. First a little about myself...my name's Jake, I'm 14 years old, don't assume I'm as immature as most 14 year olds are because your assumption would be completely wrong . Anyways, this is a hard one but my favorite album is either Blackwater Park or Damnation. I think the main reason I chose BWP is because it has 'The Drapery Falls', which was my first metal in general song in 5th grade. I can't even imagine what my mom must have thought. ------------- The weak dress in hatred to hide their fear.. |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: April 21 2005 at 19:44
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Hi, I am new too. Here are my rundowns on the Opeth albums: 1. Damnation- This is definitely my favorite disc, sounds like 60s, 70s Prog that I really dig. I love the ELP tone on the sound of the music. 2. Blackwater Park- Probably the most complete Opeth disc, it features amazing growls and vocals by Mikael Akerfeldt, of course it has to one of the most atmospheric releases ever. 3. Deliverance- Heavy as f**k, but still it kicks ass. Love that title Track and a master's apprentice 4. Morningrise- Amazing song- Black Rose Immortal, kinda a change of their older sound (Black metalish) into a more Doom/Death mix with Blackish tint to it. 5. Still Life 6. MAYH 7. Orchid- To a lot of you, tr00 proggies, Orchid sucks. To me, its a very average disc made by one of the best METAL units around.
They might not be a great Prog band, but its better than 99 percent of the crap out there. And
They are Doom Metal mixed with Progressive Rock, Death Metal and Black Metal overtures. Something only Edge of Sanity or Novembre has.
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Posted By: Abbath
Date Posted: April 22 2005 at 21:01
Not at all. There are a ton of great prog/(insert metal genre here) bands like Negura Bunget, Drudkh, Coprofago, etc... You really have to go deep into some less "attractive" parts of metal to find some interesting fusions. You really HAVE to check out Morningrise and Still Life. They FAR
surpass Blackwater Park, Deliverance and Damnation (their 3 worst
efforts). |
Posted By: Abbath
Date Posted: April 22 2005 at 21:04
Sure, they aren't true-blue doom like Worship (fineral doom), Candlemass or St-Vitus, but they aren't Death Metal either. I just said they lean more towards doom than death in terms of song structure and compositional elements. I'm not a death metaller, nor am I a doomer, but I feel I'm well versed enough in metal to classify them as death-doom with some prog elements. No offence taken either BTW. |
Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: April 22 2005 at 21:16
I see that you took the liberty of omitting the parts of each member's biography where they mention Camel albums as being among their favorites. |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: April 22 2005 at 21:19
I own all their albums and I find their evolution to be better. The band has just improved so much. |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: April 22 2005 at 21:20
This is a tr0000 proggie site, you don't have to convince them what is what because its all the same to most people here. Me, myself loathe Doom Metal, that's why I really can not get into the earlier Opeth albums. Too sad and slow for me. When I like Heavy, I prefer to put on Technical Death Metal, Train of Thought or some quality Thrash. |
Posted By: Abbath
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 10:50
My qualms with later-era Opeth is that it's too derivative and predictable. Gone were heartfelt passages and now we get what seems like Opeth trying to please the new fans they got because of BwP (where they started their massive downfall). |
Posted By: Unifaun
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:04
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i heard that opeth are big fans of camel? -------------
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Posted By: Metropolis
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:05
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Yep, Mike especially is a masiive camel fan and has been quoted saying
"progressive rock is the ultimate form of music", which of course we
all agree with
------------- We Lost the Skyline............
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Posted By: Unifaun
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:10
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yay! what is that album in your pic? I recognise it from somewhere... I take it you are named after a DT song. -------------
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Posted By: Metropolis
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:14
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Yep, named after a DT song, the album depicted is Porcupine Tree's The Sky Moves Sideways, tis a most excellent album
------------- We Lost the Skyline............
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:27
Got a list of any more? I love investigating obscure/inventive metal but I'd never heard of any of those |
.Posted By: Unifaun
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:31
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ah yes, i have that album but it is a copy cd so i dont have the original cover! It is a good album indeedy! -------------
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Posted By: Metropolis
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:32
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Green Carnation, Aggaloch, Katatonia are some other good ones well worth checking out
------------- We Lost the Skyline............
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 17:03
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Well, you see. Everyone has their own opinions and I don't like the sound of earlier Opeth. I actually think Opeth actually peaked around Blackwater Park.
Ahh, Green Carnation has an amazing album that is one song, 60 minutes long, make sure you check that one out. But Agalloch and Katatonia are kinda boring for me. |
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 18:54
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i think the first 2 albums are good, they use a different guitar style and different kind of riffs as they are still finding their sound. My Arms Your Hearse is the daddy where true Opeth begins and they continued to develop from there. ------------- The Worthless Recluse
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 19:39
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MAYH is f**king heavy as hell, I think its the album before MAYH, Morningrise and Still Life the album after it is where Opeth really sprouted, of course reaching their peak at around BWP :) |
Posted By: Abbath
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 20:31
I must warn you, some of these are a bit more niche than Opeth, but they are excellant. Cynic - Focus (Death/Jazz/Prog) Negura Bunget - N' Crugu Bradlui (Black/Prog) Drudkh - Autumn Aurora (Atmospheric Black/Folk/Prog) Atheist - Unquestionable Presence (Death/Jazz/Prog) Feel free to check these out, but they are a bit tougher to get into than Opeth. I HIGHLY reccomend Cynic. Hope you find something you like. |
Posted By: Abbath
Date Posted: April 23 2005 at 20:33
Ah yes, the famous Light of Day, Day of Darkness. If you can sit through the 60 minutes filled with Piano and Violin interludes, you're a true soldier! Interesting stuff, to say the least. |