The Top 100 Albums
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44084
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 08:22
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Top 100 Albums
Posted By: Harkonnen
Subject: The Top 100 Albums
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 20:23
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Sorry guys, but I still don't get it... I honestly agree that the key to Progressive music is variety and it's incredible to find such a vast amount of information in this site. However, I disagree in the way the All Time Top 100 are chosen. To me, the focus should be on Score and Popularity. Simple. We shouldn't discriminate just because we consider Neo Prog to be cheesy, we shouldn't complicate the algorithm until all of our favourite albums are there. I've made a simple exercise of multiplying the average score times the number of reviews and then I simply sorted the list in a descending order. And logic prevailed!! Close to the Edge is the best album (to me that honour belongs to the Court of the Crimson King), Hybris is way better than Depois do Fim, Metropolis Pt.2 is within the top 10, and I don't worry anymore about purchasing Memento Z by SBB, or Arbeit... by Area. Next time I want to expand my horizons I'll look at that number first.
Happy to discuss...
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Replies:
Posted By: Fight Club
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 23:10
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I also think the rating system is somewhat flawed. In my opinion the ratings of prog reviewers and collaborators is weighed too heavily. I think ratings with reviews (200 characters or more maybe?) should count a little bit more than ratings without reviews, but it's just ridiculous how much of a difference everything is. Are the opinions of prog reviewers/collaborators really that much more important than those of us who haven't acquired a title yet? I believe some weight should be applied to ratings accompanied by reviews, but not nearly as heavily as it is. And prog reviewers/collaborators ratings shouldn't count nearly as much as they do. After fixing this we might get a more accurate top 100. ------------- 
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Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 23:12
Yep  ------------- Beauty will save the world. 
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Fight Club wrote:Posted By: Fight Club
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 00:25
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Maybe we shouldn't just have ONE overall rating. We could have a general average of all the ratings. I'll Foxtrot as an example. Currently 517 ratings, 76% of which are 5 stars, 15% - 4, 6% - 3, 3% - 2, 1% - 1. 517 times the percentage (0.76, 0.15, etc.) then multiplied by the star rating. Add all together, divide by number of ratings and there you go. General average. We could have a general average displayed and also do like IMDB does and show a number of other ratings. The way you can the average ratings of males, females, age groups, etc. except applied to ProgArchives. We can have the average of all the prog reviewers/collaborators ratings, average of all the ratings with reviews, rating without reviews, etc. As for things such as the top 100, I think it should be sortable by these different ratings. Sort Top 100 by general average, collaborator ratings, reviewed ratings, etc. This way people can look at everything in which ever way they wish. No just one overall rating for anything. People have their own preferred rating methods and this way they can choose whichever they want. What do you think about that? -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 03:02
With this calculation Dream Theater - Train of Thought gets a rank of 1490.23, Anglagard - Hybris gets 999.04.  I don't think that simple multiplication results in a list which represents the best albums ... it is emphasizing the number of reviews too much. But of course it would be interesting to have such a list on a separate page, just to show people what it would look like. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 03:20
Down with the oligarchy!!!! Long live freedom and democracy!!!!
(Actually I get why the reviewers and collabs get weighted scores. I do think they are currently weighted too heavily. A scheme where the number of people whose scores would be weighted is significantly enlarged might be a better solution, but may not be practical to implement.)
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 04:04
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Could you expand on this bit "We shouldn't discriminate just because we consider Neo Prog to be cheesy, we shouldn't complicate the algorithm until all of our favourite albums are there. " Our algorithm doesn't do that.
It is of course open to everyone to become prog reviewers.
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 05:52
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The algorithm is only there to downplay the importance of number of reviews, which it does well while still making it somewhat important. Before CTTE was number one forever because it had so many reviews that nothing could touch it. ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 06:36
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one good thing I saw changed on the first page is that we are talking about the top 100 most popular albums on this site and not the best this indeed makes sense, because popularity derives both from the av.rating and the number of reviews |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 06:44
in your first point, I would disagree: giving a (at least short) review about an album should count much more that a simple rating, as it gives some points about the music, what to expect, a recommendation etc... 3/1 ratio for me is fair for your second point, the 10/3 ratio is somewhat arguable, meaning that a collab's review counts more than three times of a member's one... not all of us can become prog reviewers or collabs |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 07:23
| The algorithm was changed recently. Before that CTTE was number one and there were still lots of threads moaning about it. It's subjective so it will never please everyone. |
Posted By: Fight Club
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 15:03
Yeah, just a short review of the main points would be fine. I didn't specifically mean 200 characters, just an example. 3 to 1 is probably fair and maybe a 5 to 3 for the reviewers/collabs. I don't think there ratings should count more than double that of a regular member, but should count a little more. Not all of us have the time to sit and write 10 reviews every day. As for myself I can write a decent review every once in a while, but it takes a huge chunk of time. When I write a review I listen to the album in full and try to organize my thoughts about it. This can take up to 2 hours for me. It's a long process! -------------
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 15:36
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I know it doesn't seem fair to weigh Collab and reviewer ratings higher, but there are reasons for this. First of all, it helps balance out some of the fanboy/hater activity. Many people have come here just to juice their favorite band, or undercut something they don't like. It is hoped that those with titles offer more objectivity. The other thing is, it's a perk. We work here for free, so this is at least some type of reward. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Fight Club
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 16:13
I agree with you, but I feel that they are weighed far too heavily. I think 5/3 or even 6/3 would be more fair than 10/3. Triple that of a regular member is taking it a little far don't you think? -------------
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 17:28
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If you really want to balance out the fanboy/hater activity, eliminate all non-review ratings. Make everybody at least prove they listened to the album. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Fight Club
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 23:27
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Actually it might be a better idea to make reviews a requirement.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: December 06 2007 at 02:45
I think it's perfectly fair to make prog reviewer / collabs reviews count more in the computation of the ranking. They not only commit more of their time to writing reviews, but their reviews were also examined by the admins and other collabs at one point to decide whether they're worthy of the title of prog reviewer or collab. Of course the other reviews might be as good or even better ... so if you think you've written some pretty good reviews you can always apply to become a prog reviewer and make them count more!  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: December 06 2007 at 12:22
| Can't see why there is all this fuss. Does it matter if an album is 19th or 39th. Would that stop you from looking into it. There will always be wonderment at why certain albums reached certain heights. What I'm not sure of is giving extra stars due to the progginess of an album. After all this is a prog site! But what the heck - back to my first comment |
Posted By: Fight Club
Date Posted: December 06 2007 at 14:26
It doesn't matter to those of us who have been browsing the site for some time now, but say for example someone discovers this site for the first time through one of their favorite bands. They've just discovered this fabulous form of music and want to take in all the best examples possible as quickly as they can. The first thing this person is going to do is see the Top 100 and list and jump right to that and either download or buy the first 10 or 20 albums at the top. If there's not an accurate rating method that person might miss out on see pretty key albums (Brain Salad Surgery or Metropolis Pt. 2 for example). Of course it all depends on what the person is looking for and stuff like that, but we all want visitors coming back for more right? It's really not that big of a deal, but why not just make that little improvement for the "newbies". I know this is pretty much what I did when I first discovered the site. I went down the Top 100 list and grabbed everything I could find in the first 20. I've been a fan every since, but I feel a good deal of key albums that left me eager to hear more are missing from the list (such as Metropolis). Long fans of the genre won't have as much of a problem considering it should be much easier for them to accept albums such as Hybris. As for those who are new to prog, the list may make it harder for them with more obscure and less accessible albums towards the top. I know it took me ages to get into Hybris, and surprisingly a while for Genesis, but now Hybris is one of my favorite albums of all time and Genesis one of my favorite bands. Like you said, it's really not THAT big of a deal, but I think it will affect the new proggers more and not as positively as it could. -------------
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: December 06 2007 at 15:49
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I think most people will always take any music chart with a large pinch of salt.
The great thing about ours is that it actually lists some really good music.
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