Prog Music Lounge - Announcing the Prog-Metal split

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Announcing the Prog-Metal split

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Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42840
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Topic: Announcing the Prog-Metal split

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Subject: Announcing the Prog-Metal split
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 01:59

I'm happy to announce that M@x has approved of the PM team's proposal to split Prog Metal into three separate categories:

Progressive Metal
- Classic Progressive Metal
- Modern (Eclectic) Progressive Metal
- Prog Power Metal
Extreme/Tech Prog Metal
- Avant-Garde Prog Metal
- Progressive Thrash Metal
- Progressive Death Metal
- Progressive Black Metal
- Progressive Technical Metal
- Prog Metal Fusion
Experimental/Post-Metal
- Experimental Metal
- Art Metal
- Post Sludge Metal
- (Eclectic) Post Metal

The sub genres of these three new genres will *not* be implemented as clickable genres, but they're useful to understand which band goes where. But the new genre definitions which I'm preparing will contain descriptions and key albums for all of them. Smile

Edit: I added this "FAQ" section to answer questions asked in this thread (and elsewhere):

Q: I don't agree with the new genre definitions ... where do I send complaints to?
A: You can post them here. The current definitions are only a first draft, and they are currently being worked at. Please be patient while we're trying to sort them out ... this is a work done in stages:

1.) writing preliminary definitions
2.) implementing the split and moving most of the bands
3.) improving the definitions and fine-tune the band lists.
Q: Opeth aren't Post-Metal ... what are they doing in Experimental/Post-Metal?
A: All the new categories are combinations of various styles/types of music. The "/" in the label means "and/or", so "Experimental/Post-Metal" means "Experimental (Prog) Metal and/or Post-Metal". Grouping them together doesn't mean that they represent one homogenous style.
We simply had to find a compromise between creating too many new categories and keeping all the bands in one big category, so we chose to combine some of the categories which "get along" well. In a nutshell we made these combinations: classic+power+melodic (Prog Metal), technical+avant+extreme+fusion (Tech/Extreme), experimental+art+post (Experimental/Post).
Q: Does the introduction of new categories mean that the band admission procedure of the PMT will change ... will you become more inclusive?
A: No, definitely not. Bands from all the subgenres listed above are already in the archives, and the standards for band admissions will not be affected by the split.
Q: Will there be further splits of these three categories in the future?
A: I don't think that's likely. Over the last two years there has been much discussion about how to split the genre, and this is the result. *Maybe* at some point in the future the band lists of the new genre might indicate further splits, but the more categories there are the more difficult it becomes to decide which band to put where, and more cases of bands arise which really belong to several categories equally.
Q: I'm only seeing two new categories with none or only a few band entries ...
A: We'll shortly move most of the bands to their new homes ... please try to be patioent. After these first moves it will probably take a while longer until all the moves are final ... there will be many discussions among the PM team members, and of course you're all welcome to post suggestions or complaints, as long as they're constructive.
Q: Is not progressive tech metal a little redundant? It should just be tech metal and drop the progressive part.
A: If we dropped the word "Prog" from that label then people would read it and think it contained non-prog "Technical Metal" bands. I think there is a fine line between progressive technical and non-prog technical bands ... not all technical bands are automatically prog, and that's why the word must stay. An example for non-prog technical bands would be - most Death Metal bands actually. If you look at bands like Cryptopsy, Nile or related bands like In Flames, Children of Bodom etc. then it's clear that they're quite technical, yet they aren't prog.
Q: I was surprised not to see Opeth in Extreme metal... but in Experimental/Post... what? I mean Edge of Sanity is in Extreme and they surely are the band that has more things in common with Opeth than any other band in this site.
A: Actually I think that Edge of Sanity aren't really similar to Opeth except for the vocals. Of course Opeth would also fit in Extreme/Tech *because* of the vocals, but we tried to make a musical distinction. I know that Mikael himself has called his music Death Metal in interviews. But not *all* Death Metal influenced bands must automatically go to Extreme/Tech. Likewise there are a few Black Metal influenced bands which make more sense in Experimental/Post, like for example Agalloch.
Q: What about Sieges Even and/or Zero Hour ... they're quite technical, shouldn't they go to Extreme/Tech?
A: Sieges Even are one of the classic prog metal bands and will stay in Progressive Metal. It should be noted that of course many bands from Progressive Metal get quite technical at times. But if you compare Sieges Even, Zero Hour or Dream Theater to bands like Meshuggah, Cynic or Spiral Architect it should be evident that they're much more melodic, well-rounded in terms of influences and generally less extreme and more accessible, and that's why they belong in Progressive Metal. What I said here will also be added to the genre descriptions soon.
Q: Opeth and Tool are in Post/experimental?!?!?!?!?! BAD move! Lets keep them in PM so the other bands can shine!
A: Obviously many of the bands in Extreme/Tech and Experimental/Post are dramatically underreviewed. Currently they're outshined by Opeth and Tool who are simply much more well known, but you can change that easily by writing reviews!

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Replies:

Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 02:02

That'll be useful!

Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 02:19

If I cared at all about prog metal, I'd be pretty darn happy.

Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 02:25

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

If I cared at all about prog metal, I'd be pretty darn happy.

So it seems like you don't, so don't sweat it. Why do these people even bother posting? Sheeesh.

Great to hear/read that Mike. Will check out the list soon as it's out.

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Posted By: maups2
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 02:42

Nice!

Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 02:44

It still doesn't make sense to me, but O.K.

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a.k.a. H.T.

http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com

Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 02:50

i don't know if it'll be usefull but i agree with the categorizations...

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-music is like pornography...

sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...

-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...

Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 03:22

good work Mike and PM Team... and kudos to M@x for taking the leap

Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 03:28

Majestic_Mayhem wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

If I cared at all about prog metal, I'd be pretty darn happy.

So it seems like you don't, so don't sweat it. Why do these people even bother posting? Sheeesh.

Great to hear/read that Mike. Will check out the list soon as it's out.

I bothered to post because I appreciate the fact that PA is continuously working to improve the site, despite the fact that it is in area which I could care less about.

Since my post is positive and your post is negative, I can't help but wonder why you bother to post?

Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 03:53

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Majestic_Mayhem wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

If I cared at all about prog metal, I'd be pretty darn happy.

So it seems like you don't, so don't sweat it. Why do these people even bother posting? Sheeesh.

Great to hear/read that Mike. Will check out the list soon as it's out.

I bothered to post because I appreciate the fact that PA is continuously working to improve the site, despite the fact that it is in area which I could care less about.

Since my post is positive and your post is negative, I can't help but wonder why you bother to post?

Now that would be a better way to rephrase what you mean. I never found the word appreciate on your original post.

I post on almost every progressive metal and related threads on this site and I do care much for the genre.

If I don't care about something I won't dare lift a finger to do or say something about it. I don't know about you.

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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 03:57

Congratulations to the team, great work! I have recently found some prog-metal to my tastes, and the new system will help me in making follow-ups. Smile

Thanks!

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"PA's own GI Joe!"

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 04:14

Please stop bickering.... This is becoming a bit tiresome. Unhappy

Since I have supported the split from the start, I can't but be very happy about this development which will definitely be positive for the site. I wish the PM team all the best for their upcoming job of splitting the genre, as I know how long it can take! LOL

Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 04:20

Ghost Rider wrote:

Please stop bickering.... This is becoming a bit tiresome. Unhappy

Sorry about that Ms. Raf. I just didn't get his point, and can't help but react.

Anyways, will there be any list of those bands within their respective genres? Where can we find them?

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Posted By: Lanor
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 04:34

bhikkhu wrote:

It still doesn't make sense to me, but O.K.

Posted By: Casartelli
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 04:55

Positive about the split. Good luck on the job!

Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 05:03

Post Sludge Metal... i gotta hear some of that !

good list, it brings order to a very complcated genre

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Prog Archives Tour Van

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 05:15

I don't know very much prog metal but I reckon the new sub-categories will make it easier to find music I like. Before, the prog metal genre seemed too wide and sprawling for me to make any sense of it. Thanks for all your hard work!

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: Hatters
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 05:34

I don't under stand why Avant-Garde metal isn't in the Experimental section but nevermind.
It would be nice to see some examples of the different bands in the different sections.

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http://www.last.fm/user/SHatters/?chartstyle=basic10">

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 06:05

^ these two genres are a bit of a problem ... the main difference is that

Extreme/Tech Prog Metal / Avant-Garde Progressive Metal

is for the rather technical and quirky bands like Behold...the Arctopus and Unexpect, while

Experimental/Post-Metal / Experimental Prog Metal

is for those bands which are less technical, a bit more calm (less quirky) and sometimes related to Post Metal. An obvious example would be Maudlin of the Well.

It's a bit like Experimental/Post-Rock vs. RIO/Avant-Prog.

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 06:32

that's great news... and a benefit to the site indeed.

Good job Mike and the rest of the PMT

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 06:42

Great move.

It will be interesting to see where specific bands end up, but I think I'm still going to be liking bands from each subsubgenre.

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What?

Posted By: jikai55
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 06:47

Great move`

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I like cheese and I like metal! --Mikael Åkerfeldt

Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 07:24

Awesome move! Now I won't have to go sifting too much for the Prog Metal I like.

A great move for the Archives in stream-lining a complex genre!

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"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence"
- Robert Fripp

Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 07:26

I can't see this as negative, perhaps a bit pointless, but still a positive move.

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<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]

Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 07:45

a) I don't like metal
b) this is a great move!

Now us, people who don't like the genre simple because we are not very familiar with it and we weren't searching enough - we'll be able to find something for our tastes and to widen our horizons!!

(The "PM for people who don't like PM" http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31445 - thread ) is helpful, too.

Great job folks! Clap

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Posted By: steve j
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 07:56

This is great news! Thanks to those who have spent time putting this thing together. It's a labour love, even though half the board don't like PM.

I don't understand the categories at present, so I look forward to see how the categorizing goes. Will be interesting where DT is put, as their music seems to be in several camps. The cat choice for Riverside also will be interesting.

Thanks again all concerned, our horizons are about to be widened.

Posted By: N Ellingworth
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 08:11

Great news, I look forward to the new sub genres being implemented as it'll making finding prog metal I like a lot easier.

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 08:14

steve j wrote:

Will be interesting where DT is put, as their music seems to be in several camps. The cat choice for Riverside also will be interesting.

Both DT and Riverside will remain in Progressive Metal. They are not first and foremost technical, extreme, experimental or "post", so they stay in the "main" category. I think that numerically speaking the split will be something like 50:20:30, but of course we'll only be certain once it's finished. Embarrassed

BTW: It's relatively easy to choose one of the three categories for the bands, apart from a few exceptions (e.g. Opeth, Tool). It's more difficult to assign a sub genre to them ... that's why the sub genres will not be implemented as clickable lists for the time being. We'll probably implement these "schools" on a multiple genre per album basis ... first we'll do it for the key albums of the genres, and maybe later we'll try it for all the albums, which will be quite a job.

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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 08:23

Does everyone understand that this will be three separate, new sub-genres? and that hat they will not be grouped together under the title Prog-Metal? This is what doesn't make sense to me, because they are all still Metal bands. To me it would be like if you had a website that was only Prog-Metal, and contained the same bands. After some time, you realize it is so large that it needs some more organization. So the answer you come up with is creating three different websites. Do you see what I'm getting at? Do these bands have as little in common as Folk and Electronic? No, they are all Metal.

Before anyone asks what I have against metal, the answer is nothing. This has nothing to do with the specific sub-genre in question. It is a matter of logic concerning the structure of the site. You may ask, what about Art Rock? Well, a lot of those artists had nothing in common, and Art was never really considered a specific genre in the first place. I do believe that Metal needs these categories, but why not within the existing sub?

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a.k.a. H.T.

http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com

Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 08:37

bhikkhu wrote:

Does everyone understand that this will be three separate, new sub-genres? and that hat they will not be grouped together under the title Prog-Metal? This is what doesn't make sense to me, because they are all still Metal bands. To me it would be like if you had a website that was only Prog-Metal, and contained the same bands. After some time, you realize it is so large that it needs some more organization. So the answer you come up with is creating three different websites. Do you see what I'm getting at? Do these bands have as little in common as Folk and Electronic? No, they are all Metal.

Before anyone asks what I have against metal, the answer is nothing. This has nothing to do with the specific sub-genre in question. It is a matter of logic concerning the structure of the site. You may ask, what about Art Rock? Well, a lot of those artists had nothing in common, and Art was never really considered a specific genre in the first place. I do believe that Metal needs these categories, but why not within the existing sub?

You got a valid point here, but if I understood Mike well, that three new subsubgenres will NOT be "clickable" genres.

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https://japanskipremijeri.bandcamp.com/album/perkusije-gospodine" rel="nofollow - Percussion, sir!

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 08:48

^ actually the three genres will be clickable ... in fact M@x just created them. The sub genres of the three new genres will not be clickable though.

@bhikkhu: I understand what you're saying ... but this is more a technical limitation at the moment than a conceptional one. The three new genres all have the word "metal" in their label, which shows that they're closely related to each other.

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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 09:00

After two years we finally did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like to thank mailto:M@x - M@x and the admin team for having the trust in us to do this and for giving us their support.

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Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 09:10

As for the first impression it looks fine Thumbs%20Up

I'm curious about the band attributions Ouch

not a simple task ...

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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">

Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 09:12

Whoa... three new genres to keep track of.

No, just kidding. I'm sure it'll be useful to a lot of people.

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This user has left the PA fora, but will occasionally post reviews so as to support artists.

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 09:17

^ I'm sure that it will be possible to create a page where all three categories are listed together ... actually, all it would take would be to change the current charts page so that you can select more than one genre.

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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 09:21

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I'm happy to announce that M@x has approved of the PM team's proposal to split Prog Metal into three separate categories:

Progressive Metal
- Classic Progressive Metal
- Modern (Eclectic) Progressive Metal
- Prog Power Metal
Extreme/Tech Prog Metal
- Avant-Garde Prog Metal
- Progressive Thrash Metal
- Progressive Death Metal
- Progressive Black Metal
- Progressive Technical Metal
- Prog Metal Fusion
Experimental/Post-Metal
- Experimental Metal
- Art Metal
- Post Sludge Metal
- (Eclectic) Post Metal

Edit: I added this "FAQ" section to answer questions asked in this thread (and elsewhere):

Q: Are there lists of bands for these sub genres ... where can I find them?
A: I'm working on these lists right now ... as soon as they'll finished I'll make them available. Of course these lists will be a team effort ... I'll add some new charts on my website for this purpose.
Q: Does the introduction of new categories mean that the band admission procedure of the PMT will change ... will you become more inclusive?
A: No, definitely not. Bands from all the subgenres listed above are already in the archives, and the standards for band admissions will not be affected by the split.
Q: Will there be further splits of these three categories in the future?
A: I don't think that's likely. Over the last two years there has been much discussion about how to split the genre, and this is the result. *Maybe* at some point in the future the band lists of the new genre might indicate further splits, but the more categories there are the more difficult it becomes to decide which band to put where, and more cases of bands arise which really belong to several categories equally.

Is it April's fool time again????

You forgot progmetal-related!!!!!!!!!!!

Just kiddiiiiin!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........

next week, I'm announcing that Prog Folk is haxing sextuplets

All joking aside, hopefully this will help you!!!

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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 09:25

Looks good, fellas... nice work!

I would like to see the 3 genres under one page at some point in the future, but this is an excellent start.

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ALTAIC

"Oceans Down You'll Lie"
coming soon

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 09:37

GoldenSpiral wrote:

Looks good, fellas... nice work!

I would like to see the 3 genres under one page at some point in the future, but this is an excellent start.

Actually there are quite a few other genre combinations which would be interesting chart-wise ... for example Post Rock + Post Metal, or Tech/Extreme Prog Metal + RIO/Avant, or Krautrock + Psychedelic etc..

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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 10:05

Sounds like a great deal to me. I am much more fond of the "original" prog metal genre than I am of these other experimental/technical subgenres. So it will be great not having to sift through these type bands to find the types of bands that I am looking for. I am definitely looking forward to the end product. Thank you.

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Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 10:18

Great job! Thumbs%20Up

This will make it easier to navigate through progressive metal!

Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 11:42

PA is becoming the new http://www.metal-archives.com%20 - www.metal-archives.com ! oh nooo! LOL

EDIT: Since this site is supposed to be a "Prog Rock" oriented site, I don't get the point of doing a split of a very very doubtful genre (in the sense it's too much inclusive with bands that aren't even related to Prog) as Prog Metal is...

Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 11:52

Great work from the PMT to get the much needed split and goodluck because placing the bands is going to be the hard part.

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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 12:08

P.H.P. wrote:

PA is becoming the new http://www.metal-archives.com%20 - www.metal-archives.com ! oh nooo! LOL

The genre is doubtful *in your opinion* ... only a few people share this extreme position. Well, we can't please everyone, but we try! Smile

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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 12:36

Hi Mike,

I think the addition is a good idea, but could use some work. What do you do about bands which have a sound that doesn't quite fit in a single category? E.g. sometimes you can't really say if what you hear is technical/progressive thrash or death metal.

And then you have bands like Solefald, Ephel Duath, Opeth with very eclectic catalogue, what do you do with these drunken sailors?

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sig

Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 12:39

it's doubtful because you make it look like it is, I believe in the existence of Progressive Metal, but carefully selected, you know...since bands like Cult of Luna are listed here, I mantain it's doubtful at least here in PA. Tongue

Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 12:41

OHMYGOD YES!!!! I can't wait to see some new stuff in the top albums section, other then the big names. The latter two will be very interesting. Thank you.

Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 12:42

P.H.P. wrote:

PA is becoming the new http://www.metal-archives.com%20 - www.metal-archives.com ! oh nooo! LOL

There was a discussion about naming the site progressive music but we decided to keep it the same. You should already know that, newb.

Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 12:53

ProgBagel wrote:

P.H.P. wrote:

PA is becoming the new http://www.metal-archives.com%20 - www.metal-archives.com ! oh nooo! LOL

There was a discussion about naming the site progressive music but we decided to keep it the same. You should already know that, newb.

Hahahahahah!

...anyways I think a better name for this site is www.WhatMetalHeadsLikeArchives.com

hahahahah! LOL

Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 12:58

enough out of you, PHP (or should I call you Hypertext PreProcessor)

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http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic
ALTAIC

"Oceans Down You'll Lie"
coming soon

Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:12

Good job, folks, it brings sense into whole Prog-Metal thing (I mean people who like Pax Cecilia may hate Nightwish, and that was all Prog-Metal...)

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:14

Metal has metastasized!!! (metaltastasized?)

Run for your lives!!!

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:17

P.H.P. wrote:

ProgBagel wrote:

P.H.P. wrote:

PA is becoming the new http://www.metal-archives.com%20 - www.metal-archives.com ! oh nooo! LOL

There was a discussion about naming the site progressive music but we decided to keep it the same. You should already know that, newb.

Hahahahahah!

...anyways I think a better name for this site is www.WhatMetalHeadsLikeArchives.com

hahahahah! LOL

You are acting like a troll and I suggest being a little more respectful and understanding of other people's tastes here.

I won't warn you again.

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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:27

Very interesting with ANATHEMA, IN THE WOODS.. and THE GATHERING in Post Metal.

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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:35

sinkadotentree wrote:

Very interesting with ANATHEMA, IN THE WOODS.. and THE GATHERING in Post Metal.

if you look at the direction they all took with their later albums it's not so surprising.

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What?

Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:36

TheProgtologist wrote:

You are acting like a troll and I suggest being a little more respectful and understanding of other people's tastes here.

I won't warn you again.

When being honest has been "trolling"?

What I want to make clear is that PA went off target really, I would like to help improve it...if you let me. Tongue

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:36

TheProgtologist wrote:

P.H.P. wrote:

ProgBagel wrote:

P.H.P. wrote:

PA is becoming the new http://www.metal-archives.com%20 - www.metal-archives.com ! oh nooo! LOL

There was a discussion about naming the site progressive music but we decided to keep it the same. You should already know that, newb.

Hahahahahah!

...anyways I think a better name for this site is www.WhatMetalHeadsLikeArchives.com

hahahahah! LOL

You are acting like a troll and I suggest being a little more respectful and understanding of other people's tastes here.

I won't warn you again.

Don't make him use the progtoscope on you!

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:43

Today on ProgArchives....

Jody: "Please be more respectful"

PHP: "Don't tase me, bro!"

BACK TO THREAD SUBJECT:

Actually looking at the front page now, this is pretty helpful. Unfortunately, it's going to cost me a pretty penny and a good bit of time listening to all the bands in the experimental/post metal section!

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http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic
ALTAIC

"Oceans Down You'll Lie"
coming soon

Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:45

Agree 500%. have from the start. bands who only share a distortion setting on their guitar cannot and should not be grouped together based solely on that aspect. (kayo dot, and Kamalot? Meshuggah and dream theater? and Maudlin of the Well and Rhapsody?) Its been needed for a while if only for the sake of navigation. sure they're still all metal but ive been hesitant to browse for bands because im never sure what ill get.

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http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to

Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:45

P.H.P. wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

You are acting like a troll and I suggest being a little more respectful and understanding of other people's tastes here.

I won't warn you again.

When being honest has been "trolling"?

What I want to make clear is that PA went off target really, I would like to help improve it...if you let me. Tongue

There are different ways of making your point. It can be friendly and constructive, or it can be confrontational and disrespectful. Guess which one is most likely to be effective.

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:51

darqdean wrote:

sinkadotentree wrote:

Very interesting with ANATHEMA, IN THE WOODS.. and THE GATHERING in Post Metal.

if you look at the direction they all took with their later albums it's not so surprising.

When the definitions are inserted those bands being in that category will be a little more clear.

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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:51

oh and metal archives? this site is made up of something like (dont quote me i have no idea but its close to) 300 or so prog metal bands. this site has well over 3000. 10%. its still HEAVILY prog rock and the arguements over this "questionable" genre stem from that as there are a lot of people who come to this site who do not appreciate progmetal. Prog metal, as a result, gets a lot of attention in the forums and because of this increased awareness people seem to focus strictly on prog metal and tend to ignore 90% of the site that has nothing to do with the genre at all. its a popular discussion topic but as far as the archives go, not too popular in the overall scheme of things. i wouldnt worry about it.

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http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 13:56

GoldenSpiral wrote:

Actually looking at the front page now, this is pretty helpful. Unfortunately, it's going to cost me a pretty penny and a good bit of time listening to all the bands in the experimental/post metal section!

I must admit I didn't think experimental/post metal was going to be quite as interesting as it is, but as Jody has just said while I was typing this, the subgenre includes:

Experimental Metal
Art Metal
Post Sludge Metal
(Eclectic) Post Metal

which is still quite a diverse spread of "metal" subgenres and I'll certainly be concentrating my "metal spend" on the lesser known bands in there.

(any chance of Ulver being moved here????)

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Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 14:03

darqdean wrote:

I must admit I didn't think experimental/post metal was going to be quite as interesting as it is, but as Jody has just said while I was typing this, the subgenre includes:

Experimental Metal
Art Metal
Post Sludge Metal
(Eclectic) Post Metal

which is still quite a diverse spread of "metal" subgenres and I'll certainly be concentrating my "metal spend" on the lesser known bands in there.

(any chance of Ulver being moved here????)

Yup, it has a lot of my favorite bands, mixed with many I've never heard. I gotta get on that.

As far as Ulver, the Post-rock and PM teams decided a while back that despite their metal background Ulver belonged in post-rock... mainly because they just didn't have enough in common with metal anymore. The same could be said for bands like Red Sparowes and Russian Circles, who have metal elements, but are more post-rock than anything.

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http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic
ALTAIC

"Oceans Down You'll Lie"
coming soon

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 14:09

GoldenSpiral wrote:

darqdean wrote:

I must admit I didn't think experimental/post metal was going to be quite as interesting as it is, but as Jody has just said while I was typing this, the subgenre includes:

Experimental Metal
Art Metal
Post Sludge Metal
(Eclectic) Post Metal

which is still quite a diverse spread of "metal" subgenres and I'll certainly be concentrating my "metal spend" on the lesser known bands in there.

(any chance of Ulver being moved here????)

Yup, it has a lot of my favorite bands, mixed with many I've never heard. I gotta get on that.

okay, fair point.

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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 14:14

darqdean wrote:

I must admit I didn't think experimental/post metal was going to be quite as interesting as it is, but as Jody has just said while I was typing this, the subgenre includes:

Experimental Metal
Art Metal
Post Sludge Metal
(Eclectic) Post Metal

which is still quite a diverse spread of "metal" subgenres and I'll certainly be concentrating my "metal spend" on the lesser known bands in there.

(any chance of Ulver being moved here????)

The defintions should be included soon and all the bands that need moved should be done in the next couple of days.

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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 15:13

Only dabbed into it a little....but I'm really liking it so far. It's shows the diversity in the top albums even after beings split by three!!!

Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 16:01

Thanks for the postitive responses and feedback,you guys ROCK.

I was expecting a lot of negativity and a backlash,and it is so cool that you all are being so supportive.

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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 16:26

I'm more comfortable with calling the Prog-Metal I like "Awesome Prog-Metal". The subgenre works, as I am able to enjoy it immensely without worrying too much what box-inside-a-box to squeeze it in.

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 16:48

Slartibartfast wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

P.H.P. wrote:

ProgBagel wrote:

P.H.P. wrote:

PA is becoming the new http://www.metal-archives.com%20 - www.metal-archives.com ! oh nooo! LOL

There was a discussion about naming the site progressive music but we decided to keep it the same. You should already know that, newb.

Hahahahahah!

...anyways I think a better name for this site is www.WhatMetalHeadsLikeArchives.com

hahahahah! LOL

You are acting like a troll and I suggest being a little more respectful and understanding of other people's tastes here.

I won't warn you again.

Don't make him use the progtoscope on you!

Time for a prostate check.....

About the split... Good. Now when it's done, people will realize that prog metal never was a bunch of DT clones... (only 5% of the bands....

)......

Hope after this is done we can go back to clean that chart and add more bands.... yes, I know... when all it's said and done, prog-metal will have taken over....

(Love to play with paranoids)....

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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:03

The T wrote:

About the split... Good. Now when it's done, people will realize that prog metal never was a bunch of DT clones... (only 5% of the bands....

)......

I've actually never understood that "Prog-Metal is not just about DT clones" argument. Even though I always did lack exposure to such artists due to having no interest in that direction whatsoever, even after having to work with the PMT for what, half a year or so, I could count the amount of times I found a "DT clone" on the chart.

I'd say it's just a myth, DT are so mind-bogglingly big that they appear to people not as one band, but a whole bunch of 'em? Get the hint?

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:09

Trickster F. wrote:

The T wrote:

About the split... Good. Now when it's done, people will realize that prog metal never was a bunch of DT clones... (only 5% of the bands....

)......

I'd say it's just a myth, DT are so mind-bogglingly big that they appear to people not as one band, but a whole bunch of 'em? Get the hint?

so ... what you are both saying is that after splitting up the subgenre so we can now see the wood for the trees, that there weren't any trees in the first place just one giant sequoia

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Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:17

I don't like PM, though I'm wondering if it'll be useful to people who don't like the genre as much as (surely) for those who love it. Perhaps it will..... who knows. I'll take a look at the split!!

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The best you can is good enough...

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:21

darqdean wrote:

Trickster F. wrote:

The T wrote:

About the split... Good. Now when it's done, people will realize that prog metal never was a bunch of DT clones... (only 5% of the bands....

)......

I'd say it's just a myth, DT are so mind-bogglingly big that they appear to people not as one band, but a whole bunch of 'em? Get the hint?

so ... what you are both saying is that after splitting up the subgenre so we can now see the wood for the trees, that there weren't any trees in the first place just one giant sequoia

No... when you get outside the forest, you actually get a different view from the trees... It changes whether it's a sequoia or a pine... but when dealing with Cypresses, it's another story... you can tell them apart but you still have the idea of a big amount of green leaves...

There's no sense in that.

Well, about the post, there ARE a few DT clones (yes, I RECOGNIZE it...).... Just hear Lemur Voice's debut.... but there are few, and far between... And now people will have the chance to actually avoid any chance of finding one by avoiding the the classic progressive metal genre... even though, even in that sub genre, only 10% of the bands sound really close to DT

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:29

The T wrote:

There's no sense in that.

it's okay T, I know the split wasn't done so people could avoid DT clones

- afterall, some of the so-called clones are actually very good in their own right.

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:35

darqdean wrote:

The T wrote:

There's no sense in that.

it's okay T, I know the split wasn't done so people could avoid DT clones

- afterall, some of the so-called clones are actually very good in their own right.

I'm proud of you..You've seen the truth....

yes, many of the clones are actually GOOD! (when they have at least some original elements... not Lemur Voice....

)

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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:43

sircosick wrote:

I don't like PM, though I'm wondering if it'll be useful to people who don't like the genre as much as (surely) for those who love it. Perhaps it will..... who knows. I'll take a look at the split!!

It could be useful to people who generally dislike the genre, as choosing a specific subgroup for your liking and searching for similar artists would lead to discoveries in an area of the genre you would find more pleasant.

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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:47

The T wrote:

darqdean wrote:

Trickster F. wrote:

The T wrote:

About the split... Good. Now when it's done, people will realize that prog metal never was a bunch of DT clones... (only 5% of the bands....

)......

I'd say it's just a myth, DT are so mind-bogglingly big that they appear to people not as one band, but a whole bunch of 'em? Get the hint?

so ... what you are both saying is that after splitting up the subgenre so we can now see the wood for the trees, that there weren't any trees in the first place just one giant sequoia

There's no sense in that.

That comment had nothing to do with the subject of the PM split by the PM Team, I just pointed out that those DT clones, while they indeed do exist, aren't as dominant as some people claim them to be.

I know my ex-colleague Bryan Adair used to say the band Andromeda even achieved more success in areas Dream Theater and although I never heard them myself I guess there is a point in saying some of the so-called clones can be pretty darn tight.

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Posted By: jikai55
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:49

Also, I was wondering about Subterranean Masquerade. They, quite unfortunatly, don't seem to belong anywhere.

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I like cheese and I like metal! --Mikael Åkerfeldt

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:50

^ ^ exactly Ivan... for me there are certains elements in PM that I do dislike intensely, yet never wanted to write off the whole sub as it was here.. this way is easier for people like me to get a better idea of the differences that were within the larger Progressive Metal umbrella.

Looking forward to Agalloch being my first foray into exp/post metal... Clap

though I'm not sure what I may find within tech/extreme LOL

but that is the fun isn't it... exploring.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:52

jikai55 wrote:

Also, I was wondering about Subterranean Masquerade. They, quite unfortunatly, don't seem to belong anywhere.

It's probably going to either Avant-Garde Prog Metal or Experimental Metal, I wasn't involved in this process so I have no idea what the difference between those two is (Experimental Metal could mean anything).

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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:56

darqdean wrote:

sinkadotentree wrote:

Very interesting with ANATHEMA, IN THE WOODS.. and THE GATHERING in Post Metal.

if you look at the direction they all took with their later albums it's not so surprising.

We decided to take "Experimental" a little bit more literal than it is being used in "Experimental/Post-Rock" ... like you already mentioned in a later post the new category "Experimental/Post-Metal" will actually be a combination of Experimental Prog Metal and Post Metal. One guideline though is that if bands are too quirky and technical they go to "Tech/Extreme" instead. A good example of an Experimental Prog Metal band would be Maudlin of the Well. They could also be called Avant-Prog Metal, but since they're relatively calm and not extremely technical, they go to Experimental. And style-wise they really go well with the Post Metal stuff (Kayo Dot being the *obvious* example).

The Gathering ... they're a difficult case, since all their albums are so different from each other. In that case I think it's best to look at their masterpieces - in that case: How to Measure a Planet?. And that album is a really good example of a very calm type of experimentality. I strongly recommend to check out this sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pt7gtWHWTs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pt7gtWHWTs Big%20smile

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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:

Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:56

micky wrote:

^ ^ exactly Ivan... for me there are certains elements in PM that I do dislike intensely, yet never wanted to write off the whole sub as it was here.. this way is easier for people like me to get a better idea of the differences that were within the larger Progressive Metal umbrella.

Looking forward to Agalloch being my first foray into exp/post metal... Clap

though I'm not sure what I may find within tech/extreme LOL

but that is the fun isn't it... exploring.

Agalloch is always a good introduction to whatever kind of music you haven't been introduced to (since they don't really fall into any particular category), but you should learn to understand why the vocals are exactly the way they are performed in Agalloch's music, as opposed to being traditional rock'n'roll vocals.

By the way, have you and Raffaella exposed yourselves to the Italian atmospheric Death Metal band Novembre? Their newest album will be the best, as my ability to see the future suggests me.

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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:58

Meshuggah: Melody-is-overrated Metal

Spiral Architect: And-you-thought-Dream-Theater-w**ked-off Metal

Dragonforce: Head-asplode Metal

Very good decision.

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 17:59

though I'm not sure what I may find within tech/extreme LOL

but that is the fun isn't it... exploring.

I thought you already had The Gathering's Manylion?

I must admit, I was rather shocked to find that the Experimental/Post- metal section's top album list was completely dominated by Anathema.

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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:00

stonebeard wrote:

Meshuggah: Melody-is-overrated Metal

Spiral Architect: And-you-thought-Dream-Theater-w**ked-off Metal

Dragonforce: Head-asplode Metal

Very good decision.

Are Dragonforce on the site too now? I haven't observed the additions for a few months but I've learned to expect the unexpected.

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:01

Trickster F. wrote:

though I'm not sure what I may find within tech/extreme LOL

but that is the fun isn't it... exploring.

By the way, have you and Raffaella exposed yourselves to the Italian atmospheric Death Metal band Novembre? Their newest album will be the best, as my ability to see the future suggests me.

I've heard some stuff from Agalloch via samples and I had to say I really did like it... a lot..... they are first up on my next CD binge

hahhahaha... I trust that vision. Haven't heard them... I'll see what I can dig up by them. Do they growl in Italian.. .if so... oh brother... I am SO there LOL

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:01

Trickster F. wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

Meshuggah: Melody-is-overrated Metal

Spiral Architect: And-you-thought-Dream-Theater-w**ked-off Metal

Dragonforce: Head-asplode Metal

Very good decision.

Are Dragonforce on the site too now? I haven't observed the additions for a few months but I've learned to expect the unexpected.

No, but I don't really know why they're not. I'm not complaining though.

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:01

Trickster F. wrote:

jikai55 wrote:

Also, I was wondering about Subterranean Masquerade. They, quite unfortunatly, don't seem to belong anywhere.

I think they're technical (and extreme) enough to go to Avant-Garde Prog Metal. Please note that the names of the new sub genres might be tweaked a little bit ... in order to judge which band goes where you always have to see the top level genre in conjunction with the style. So the top critera for the second genre are "technical" and "extreme".

We'll soon have the definitions online ... and I think in a week or so we'll have example band/album lists for each of them.

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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:

Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:03

stonebeard wrote:

Trickster F. wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

Meshuggah: Melody-is-overrated Metal

Spiral Architect: And-you-thought-Dream-Theater-w**ked-off Metal

Dragonforce: Head-asplode Metal

Very good decision.

Are Dragonforce on the site too now? I haven't observed the additions for a few months but I've learned to expect the unexpected.

No, but I don't really know why they're not. I'm not complaining though.

Aren't you? You should be.

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:04

sleeper wrote:

though I'm not sure what I may find within tech/extreme LOL

but that is the fun isn't it... exploring.

I thought you already had The Gathering's Manylion?

I must admit, I was rather shocked to find that the Experimental/Post- metal section's top album list was completely dominated by Anathema.

Raff brought it.... and I did like it.... I guess it technically isn't wasn't my first however hahhah.......

this would be my first foray into it.... spending MY hard earned jack hahhahah Wink

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:08

micky wrote:

Trickster F. wrote:

though I'm not sure what I may find within tech/extreme LOL

but that is the fun isn't it... exploring.

By the way, have you and Raffaella exposed yourselves to the Italian atmospheric Death Metal band Novembre? Their newest album will be the best, as my ability to see the future suggests me.

Great to hear that, the first thing one should understand before getting into Agalloch is that the "harsh" vocals do not express the commonly anticipated aggression they tend to be associated with.

Do Novembre growl in Italian? I'm not sure about the growling part, but the singer does alternate between singing in his native language and Italian (usually English dominates, but it is so to a lesser extent on the latest albums which are also their best). Personally I speak neither language very well (my writing skills in English are good thanks to the internet) and I often have trouble concluding which language Carmelo is singing in at a given instant. His voice is a bit unclear, nasal, but I like it.

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:10

thanks for the heads up Ivan... I'll hunt up some samples... I'm feeling sort of experimentative tonight.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:10

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Trickster F. wrote:

jikai55 wrote:

Also, I was wondering about Subterranean Masquerade. They, quite unfortunatly, don't seem to belong anywhere.

So I understand that even though the work has been finished and they will be here soon, improvement and suggestions could be used for additional accuracy? If that's so, I guess it could make sense for me to stick around the forums for the next few weeks for discussions, unless you mind of course (which I guess I have given sufficient reasons for in the past).

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:11

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

The Gathering ... they're a difficult case, since all their albums are so different from each other. In that case I think it's best to look at their masterpieces - in that case: How to Measure a Planet?. And that album is a really good example of a very calm type of experimentality. I strongly recommend to check out this sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pt7gtWHWTs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pt7gtWHWTs Big%20smile

I was referring specifically to Souvenirs which pushed the experimentation of How To Measure A Planet? a little further, but either are valid

, though I think they'd practically left the world of metal by then.

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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:11

micky wrote:

thanks for the heads up Ivan... I'll hunt up some samples... I'm feeling sort of experimentative tonight.

The ones on the site should be right up your alley, Micky. I am sure of it, because I sent them myself.

Heheh. One could say they are softer than some of their other songs (which aren't particularly messy or aggressive, as I tend to see it).

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:13

Trickster F. wrote:

micky wrote:

thanks for the heads up Ivan... I'll hunt up some samples... I'm feeling sort of experimentative tonight.

The ones on the site should be right up your alley, Micky. I am sure of it, because I sent them myself.

Heheh. One could say they are softer than some of their other songs (which aren't particularly messy or aggressive, as I tend to see it).

heading that way....

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:19

darqdean wrote:

I was referring specifically to Souvenirs which pushed the experimentation of How To Measure A Planet? a little further, but either are valid

, though I think they'd practically left the world of metal by then.

I think they left them it Souvenirs, but How to Measure a Planet? still has a lot of metal ... stoner metal to be precise. I love that album ... but you have to be in the right mood to enjoy it.

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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:

Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:23

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

darqdean wrote:

I was referring specifically to Souvenirs which pushed the experimentation of How To Measure A Planet? a little further, but either are valid

, though I think they'd practically left the world of metal by then.

I think they left them it Souvenirs, but How to Measure a Planet? still has a lot of metal ... stoner metal to be precise. I love that album ... but you have to be in the right mood to enjoy it.

Do you have to be stoned to appreciate it?

I guess that's why I never got into The Gathering that much.

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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:28

^ I was never stoned, so I can't comment. Wink

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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 22 2007 at 18:29

Trickster F. wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

darqdean wrote:

I was referring specifically to Souvenirs which pushed the experimentation of How To Measure A Planet? a little further, but either are valid

, though I think they'd practically left the world of metal by then.

I think they left them it Souvenirs, but How to Measure a Planet? still has a lot of metal ... stoner metal to be precise. I love that album ... but you have to be in the right mood to enjoy it.

Do you have to be stoned to appreciate it?

I guess that's why I never got into The Gathering that much.

With Krys Rygg duetting on Souvenirs you do surprise me.

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