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So you finally moved The Mars Volta..

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Forum Name: Just for Fun
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Topic: So you finally moved The Mars Volta..
Posted By: fco.
Subject: So you finally moved The Mars Volta..
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 18:30
It's good to see you somehow followed my advice after http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28256&KW= - closing my thread .
 
You may be not that doomed afterall.



Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 18:47
 ^ except they weren't moved to ProgMetal as per your 'suggestion', they are in Heavy Prog, one of the three new categories replacing ArtRock... in fact, they weren't really moved at all, just given a more accurate place in the Art family




Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 18:53
I'll put this thread were it should be... Big%20smile


Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 18:55
Originally posted by fco. fco. wrote:

It's good to see you somehow followed my advice after http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28256&KW= - closing my thread .
 
You may be not that doomed afterall.


we are the biggest and now considered the best and whilst we have no intention of being complacent I can assure you that we arent doomed...




Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 18:56
Put TMV in Eclectic while you're at it, I think they fit better there than Heavy Prog actually.

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RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!


Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 03:18
Originally posted by Bj-1 Bj-1 wrote:

Put TMV in Eclectic while you're at it, I think they fit better there than Heavy Prog actually.


While I think they both fit, I don't think giving a genre team orders is the best way to go about it.


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 03:38
Originally posted by Bj-1 Bj-1 wrote:

Put TMV in Eclectic while you're at it, I think they fit better there than Heavy Prog actually.


Clap

(not an order, just a comment)


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Posted By: FruMp
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 03:42
For what it's worth I personally think eclectic suits them better too, sure stylistically they can be quite heavy but then again so can King Crimson.

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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 03:49
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Bj-1 Bj-1 wrote:

Put TMV in Eclectic while you're at it, I think they fit better there than Heavy Prog actually.


Clap



really?! Confused


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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 03:51
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Bj-1 Bj-1 wrote:

Put TMV in Eclectic while you're at it, I think they fit better there than Heavy Prog actually.


Clap

(not an order, just a comment)


I belong to that generation of people who were taught to ask 'please' when they wanted something done. As to moving TMV, it depends on not one, but two teams - the HP and the Eclectic team. If all the parties involved (me, David, Rico and Logan) agree, then it will be done. Otherwise, they will stay where they are.


Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 04:11
I'm more than ready to listen to Mars Volta, if this suggestion gets outside this "just for fun" context - the AR team, with all its branches, actually asked for feedback days after the split was done.

Succinctly said, I don't know Mars Volta at all, only knew (or imagined) that they're one of the pivotal bands in Heavy Modern Prog. I'm well ready to find out if that's true or needs an adjustment.



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Posted By: fco.
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 10:14
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 ^ except they weren't moved to ProgMetal as per your 'suggestion', they are in Heavy Prog, one of the three new categories replacing ArtRock... in fact, they weren't really moved at all, just given a more accurate place in the Art family


 
But you got my point, which is what matters. Now, to the next task: I was reading the descriptions of your 3 new subgenres, and I realized you made a special subgenre for the Smashing Pumpkins, but oddly enough, that band wasn't there.


Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 10:17
Originally posted by fco. fco. wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 ^ except they weren't moved to ProgMetal as per your 'suggestion', they are in Heavy Prog, one of the three new categories replacing ArtRock... in fact, they weren't really moved at all, just given a more accurate place in the Art family


 
But you got my point, which is what matters. Now, to the next task: I was reading the descriptions of your 3 new subgenres, and I realized you made a special subgenre for the Smashing Pumpkins, but oddly enough, that band wasn't there.


Could you elaborate on your statement, please?Confused


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 10:39
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Bj-1 Bj-1 wrote:

Put TMV in Eclectic while you're at it, I think they fit better there than Heavy Prog actually.


Clap

(not an order, just a comment)


I belong to that generation of people who were taught to ask 'please' when they wanted something done. As to moving TMV, it depends on not one, but two teams - the HP and the Eclectic team. If all the parties involved (me, David, Rico and Logan) agree, then it will be done. Otherwise, they will stay where they are.


I'm sorry, I just read his post and intuitively agreed that they fit much better in eclectic than in heavy. Think of it what you will ... you have the authority in these genres, and you're free to completely ignore my opinion, I'm really, really cool with it.Smile


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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:


Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 10:45
I'm not ignoring anything.. I think Ricochet, who is responsible for the Eclectic team together with Logan, said quite clearly he doesn't know the band, and that he was going to get hold of some of their material in order to be able to judge. Besides, we have to listen to David's opinion too, since he was the founder of the HP team. As he lives on the other side of the world, we are not often online at the same time, which means having to wait sometimes for discussing things.

What I objected to was the tone of the request, not the thing in itself. Personally, I think they could fit in either subgenres, so I have NO preconceived opposition to the move. I am quite sure you members of the PMT would object in the same way if someone came up to you and said, "move X to another genre!".


Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 10:57
Let's not forget The Mars Volta aren't a full 100% Prog band to be recognized as that, instead they develop a hardcore punk root into a more experimental approach and yes they took some elements from Prog Rock from what I can see, but still not a pure Prog Rock band, they have diverse influences on their music, and that's mainly why they're considered among Prog sites, it's about their relation with Prog music, but not because they're a truly Prog band, IMO.


Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:02
Originally posted by P.H.P. P.H.P. wrote:

Let's not forget The Mars Volta aren't a full 100% Prog band to be recognized as that, instead they develop a hardcore punk root into a more experimental approach and yes they took some elements from Prog Rock from what I can see, but still not a pure Prog Rock band, they have diverse influences on their music, and that's mainly why they're considered among Prog sites, it's about their relation with Prog music, but not because they're a truly Prog band, IMO.


Besides the fact I disagree  with what you said, I'd be interested to know how this relates to moving them to Eclectic. If you think that Eclectic means not 100% Prog, I'm afraid you should probably go and read the definition... BTW, the only not 100% Prog categories on this site are Proto-Prog and Prog-Related.


Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:14
Reading definitions won't change my mind about them, but what's that you don't agree with? the hardcore punk root? come on that's undeniable, the whole esthetic is a punk one.

it's just like with Porcupine Tree, I don't think any Prog fan could say they're 100% Prog Rock band, no one, because they simply don't play Prog Rock, they, again, are considerated because of their sound that is appealing to some Prog fans, but not because they're necessarily 100% Prog Rock band.

Prog-related should be fine for the Mars Volta, IMO.


Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:18
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by Bj-1 Bj-1 wrote:

Put TMV in Eclectic while you're at it, I think they fit better there than Heavy Prog actually.


While I think they both fit, I don't think giving a genre team orders is the best way to go about it.
 
 
Sorry, Raff. I didn't mean it as an order, I thought of it more as a suggestion.


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RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!


Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:21
Originally posted by P.H.P. P.H.P. wrote:

Reading definitions won't change my mind about them, but what's that you don't agree with? the hardcore punk root? come on that's undeniable, the whole esthetic is a punk one.

it's just like with Porcupine Tree, I don't think any Prog fan could say they're 100% Prog Rock band, no one, because they simply don't play Prog Rock, they, again, are considerated because of their sound that is appealing to some Prog fans, but not because they're 100% Prog Rock band.

Prog-related should be fine for the Mars Volta, IMO.


I agree with the hardcore punk roots, because I happen to know Cedric and Omar were in a emo-hardcore band called At the Drive-In before forming TMV. However, I am at a loss to understand why that should prevent them from being a Prog band... Yes were influenced by Simon and Garfunkel at the beginning of their career - does it mean we have to move them to PR too? As to the punk aesthetics of TMV, I couldn't disagree more... They're the first to call themselves a prog band, unlike PT, who have always refused the tag.

Anyway, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here... I'll post a link to this thread in the HP team thread, and see what my teammate has to say when he comes online later tonight.


Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:38
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by P.H.P. P.H.P. wrote:

Reading definitions won't change my mind about them, but what's that you don't agree with? the hardcore punk root? come on that's undeniable, the whole esthetic is a punk one.

it's just like with Porcupine Tree, I don't think any Prog fan could say they're 100% Prog Rock band, no one, because they simply don't play Prog Rock, they, again, are considerated because of their sound that is appealing to some Prog fans, but not because they're 100% Prog Rock band.

Prog-related should be fine for the Mars Volta, IMO.


I agree with the hardcore punk roots, because I happen to know Cedric and Omar were in a emo-hardcore band called At the Drive-In before forming TMV. However, I am at a loss to understand why that should prevent them from being a Prog band... Yes were influenced by Simon and Garfunkel at the beginning of their career - does it mean we have to move them to PR too? As to the punk aesthetics of TMV, I couldn't disagree more... They're the first to call themselves a prog band, unlike PT, who have always refused the tag.

Anyway, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here... I'll post a link to this thread in the HP team thread, and see what my teammate has to say when he comes online later tonight.

Yes and the Mars Volta aren't a very effective comparison...

but ok, you know why Steven Wilson refuses the "Prog" tag??

it's because he's aware of how blasphemous would it be if he dares to say it, not only for Prog fans, for himself, because I'm sure he knows what's Prog and he respects it.

And the punk esthetic, I remember I saw The Mars Volta (TMV) on MTV back in 2003 in a live show for some kind of latin awards, the guy was moving from here and there like a maniac...and so many other things that remembered me like seeing a punk show, so I can tell you again they have the punk esthetic.



Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:42

Hi Ghost Rider, I think that this goes back to your progressive versus prog thread as into the interpretation of what is progressive or prog.  (or even the Black Sabbath thread or probably thousands of other threads).  Does progressive mean the literal definition of "progressing" music into new realms and new areas or does it mean a band that has elements of the sounds of the bands of the 1970's?  I believe that PA does give consideration to both types of progressive rock music but this also creates the "battle zones" for those that might only agree with the one definition of progressive. I am not familiar enough with TMV in order to provide an accurate opinion of their sound.  What I have heard probably falls under more progressing musical boundaries versus That 70's Sound.   Not being a musician to an extent I rely on others musically wiser than me to say that TMV are progressing musical boundaries.  Probably pointless rambling that will be ignored anyhow, but that is my interpretation of this discussion.



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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:44
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Hi Ghost Rider, I think that this goes back to your progressive versus prog thread as into the interpretation of what is progressive or prog.  (or even the Black Sabbath thread or probably thousands of other threads).  Does progressive mean the literal definition of "progressing" music into new realms and new areas or does it mean a band that has elements of the sounds of the bands of the 1970's?  I believe that PA does give consideration to both types of progressive rock music but this also creates the "battle zones" for those that might only agree with the one definition of progressive. I am not familiar enough with TMV in order to provide an accurate opinion of their sound.  What I have heard probably falls under more progressing musical boundaries versus That 70's Sound.   Not being a musician to an extent I rely on others musically wiser than me to say that TMV are progressing musical boundaries.  Probably pointless rambling that will be ignored anyhow, but that is my interpretation of this discussion.



ClapClapClap

And I'll stop at that now.. I've put a link in our team thread, and I hope David will have something more effective to say.




Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:49
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

I am quite sure you members of the PMT would object in the same way if someone came up to you and said, "move X to another genre!".


I would probably simply post something like this:

"make me! Tongue"

LOL


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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 21:15
just because a band may have elements that veer from their usual sound doesn't necessarily make them eclectic.. you have to look at the underlying influences and approach to making music;  TMV are mostly guitar-based with a powerful rhythm section and an aggressive singer, and their music has evidence of major influence from the hard rock areas, Led Zeppelin for one.  They have had members from hard rock/meta(Racer X) and have toured with acts that are heavy in nature (Chili Peppers).  ...  .  All considered, The Mars Volta are pretty damn heavy, man




  


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 05:09
Originally posted by P.H.P. P.H.P. wrote:



but ok, you know why Steven Wilson refuses the "Prog" tag??

it's because he's aware of how blasphemous would it be if he dares to say it, not only for Prog fans, for himself, because I'm sure he knows what's Prog and he respects it.



Stop spreading lies please.


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Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 13:27
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by P.H.P. P.H.P. wrote:



but ok, you know why Steven Wilson refuses the "Prog" tag??

it's because he's aware of how blasphemous would it be if he dares to say it, not only for Prog fans, for himself, because I'm sure he knows what's Prog and he respects it.



Stop spreading lies please.

What lie? I'm just saying what may be the reason of what he says, and I think he doesn't say "we play prog" because he knows how false will that be and he doesn't really want to make a big compromise with Prog music, he uses it as an influence on his music but he will never focus on doing traditional Prog Rock, he instead plays the music he want, and he lets the people judge and tag the music he does at their own way, is that a lie? don't think so...



Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 13:56
Can't speak for Steven Wilson's case, but many bands don't want to be labeled Prog for commercial reasons.  Using the moniker can be a poor way to market one's band as it does have a negative connotation with many people (overblown, pompous, pretentious and/or old-style 70's music).  The association can create confusion as people might expect an ELP clone (most I know think of a certain kind of old 70's rock when they think of Prog.  To use the term could risk alienating people -- and if one wants to be thought of as a modern-sounding band.  Shame that Prog is considered so uncool by so many, and that so many give it temporal limitations sound-wise.

If I was inspired by 80's hair-metal, I wouldn't want to call myself a hair-metal band.  Not the same, but Prog has certain connotations that one might not want to associate with.  I don't refer to myself as a Proghead or say I like Prog to others because of the automatic assumptions that many will make about my taste.  Prog just doesn't act as a good description I often find beyond certain classic core-bands/ albums

And sure, if one's not making pure Prog (whatever that is) calling oneself a Prog band can raise the scorn of Progheads (though the mainstream would be a more important consideration usually).

I do believe that many of the better and truly progressive bands today try not to be Prog.  To try to pigeonhole oneself to a (in many people's minds) dated sound, and to try to be generic (follow the movement) is not what being truly progressive is about.  It's more about breaking free of convention and expectations.  To boldly go where no band has gone before (or at least combine genres for a rather unique approach -- not that that need be what Prog is about).

Regarding an earlier comment about The Mars Volta, they are pretty eclectic, and Eclectic might fit well (don't know the band quite well enough).  From what I remember, I'd rather see them in an Alternative Progressive Music category if we had it.  Not a fan, and I don't want to have to listen to the music again, particularly.


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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 05 2007 at 14:01
So, that leaves the whole matter in Rico's hands... David made it quite clear that he thinks they belong to HP, and I'd rather not move them, if I have a choice. If Rico says he's OK with moving them to Eclectic, we'll discuss it between our two teams.

Just a final remark.. I'm afraid we're going a bit overboard with this genre thing. Having them as guidelines, especially for people who are new to Prog, is a positive thing... Multiplying them 'ad infinitum', in my very humble opinion, is not. Just my two eurocents here.


Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: October 06 2007 at 18:54
And this thread has what to do with "Just for Fun" Question Confused

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"Without prog, life would be a mistake."



...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 06 2007 at 18:55
I think it was the Admin's way of making a statement









Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: October 06 2007 at 19:12
Well, if that is the case, I completely missed the subtlety of it Pinch
 
...and the thread still doesn't belong in JFF!


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"Without prog, life would be a mistake."



...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche



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