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Uninformed Reviews

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Topic: Uninformed Reviews
Posted By: Walker
Subject: Uninformed Reviews
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 22:55
I have been reading a lot of reviews lately and I'v noticed a fair amount of factual errors. These errors tend to make me dismiss the entire review as irrelevant. I'm not talking about *subjective* statements like "this is the best band ever!", but statements like "this song was clearly influenced by (say) Wondrous Stories by Yes", and the song being reviewed was recorded in 1973! The statement is patently untrue! (For those who don't know, Wondrous Stories dates from 1976-1977). My question to you is this: Do you tend to overlook these inconsistencies, or does it ruin the whole review for you?



Replies:
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 22:58
I haven't read many reviews lately, but unless it's a big goof, I don't care. I called a band once post-rock or something when they were not post rock at all.

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:00
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

I haven't read many reviews lately, but unless it's a big goof, I don't care. I called a band once post-rock or something when they were not post rock at all.
 
I did the same exact thing LOL! ....... Of course I wouldn't expect anyone to take my review seriously after that, I was clearly not qualified LOL.
 


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:05
Usually when I see a glaring factual error, I think "this person doesn't know what they're talking about" and thus ignore their opinion. This is probably not fair, as I know I have been guilty of some very embarrassing goofs (I once confused Ian Anderson with Ian McDonald in a review of ITCOTCK Ouch) but nevertheless, that tends to be my gut reaction.

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:10
I tend to overlook them. In the example you mentioned the person could very well have good opinions and be knowledgable about the album he's reviewing while not knowing when "Wondrous Stories" was recorded.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:11
Answering your question, I tend to overlook them.  From reviews, I'm trying to get an essence about what the music sounds like to determine if I might want to listen.  I don't care if the person slips up with a fact.  We can all have memory issues!Wink  Now if they screw up constantly and it's obvious they have no idea what they're talking about, that's different. 




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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:15
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I tend to overlook them. In the example you mentioned the person could very well have good opinions and be knowledgable about the album he's reviewing while not knowing when "Wondrous Stories" was recorded.
 
True, but I just can't get past the error. To me, it taints everything else they have written. I am certainly NOT saying I don't make mistakes. Actually, it's probably a mistake to dismiss an entire review because of one error, so there ya go! Tongue
 


Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:31
Generally I take names, storing them mentally, so I may never read reviewers that make these factual errors you're speaking of. The probability of me reading a lying/ignorant reviewer is less this way.
 
Personally I've chosen to not write reviews myself. I believe only a few among the many truly possess a natural ability for it, knowing what's true and what's not, and so many more leave me thinking they are dumb or ignorant.


Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 00:36
I think the correct solution is.....

Proofread/Double-check grammer, spelling and accuracy.


Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 01:45
I am not crazy about your topic title.
 
Where I come from to call someone ignorant is pretty rude.


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Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 07:04
Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

I am not crazy about your topic title.
 
Where I come from to call someone ignorant is pretty rude.
 
I'm sorry, I meant it in the sense of "someone who doesn't know the facts is ignorant of the facts", not as a personal attack. I will consider changing it, how would you word it?
 
 


Posted By: Firefly
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 07:12
...perhaps "uninformed/misinformed" reviewers?
 
I think coupled with the little red angry smiley, it did come across as a little harsh. 
 
How I stand on it:  well, I read the review anyway.  Even if the facts are wrong, how the audio affects the person and their opinions thereon are still valid.  I might have a giggle depending on how glaring the error (like a Paatos reviewer in Sweden who stated that Brian Wilson had produced "Kallocain" instead of Steven Wilson.) 
 
But if one is interested in opinions, why not read them, even if a tad inaccurate?


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 07:15
It's difficult to put it in one word. "Inaccurate" is close ... but I guess what you're really meaning is reviewers who write factual statements without double-checking them. Well, I think you can't know everything, and sometimes you just deduce something and get used to it - if it fits - although it's factually wrong. In the case of these Yes songs ... well, obviously the reviewer thought that they sound much alike. IMO it doesn't matter that much which one was released first, but of course a minor mistake like that shows that he's probably not *the* expert on Yes.

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https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls

Listened to:


Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 07:16

Ignorance is strength…



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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 09:08
I guess we are all completely flawless and never make any such stupid mistakes except for those poor losers Confused. So down with them!  Angry
Wink


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 09:36
If the error is funny - I'll chuckle, if it has absolutely no relavence to the review then I'll ignore the error and read on but if it is relates directly to the reviewers impression of the album then I'm affraid I'll ignore the whole review (stating an opinion as if it were fact usually does it for me).
 
We all have made the odd gaff that would regulate us to psueds corner at sometime. Embarrassed


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What?


Posted By: Firefly
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 09:44
oooh...sorry...I mentioned the agro smiley, but I think I confused that with the "Regressive archives" thread.  Oops!!


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 10:05
Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

I think the correct solution is.....

Proofread/Double-check grammer, spelling and accuracy.

Exactly; you would have noticed it is "grammar" and not "grammer" then. Wink


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 10:31
Ignorant is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. If you don't know something, you are by definition ignorant of it. I think you all are being to hard on Walker. He is not saying that he never makes mistakes, he is simply stating that reading misinformation in reviews is a turn off, and I agree.

If you were reading a book or a magazine filled with factual errors, wouldn't that make you question the value of the book?


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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 11:05
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Ignorant is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. If you don't know something, you are by definition ignorant of it. I think you all are being to hard on Walker. He is not saying that he never makes mistakes, he is simply stating that reading misinformation in reviews is a turn off, and I agree.

If you were reading a book or a magazine filled with factual errors, wouldn't that make you question the value of the book?

It would depend on the time the book or the magazine is from. Knowledge is ever expanding, so the older a book is the more likely it becomes to contain factual errors.


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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 13:51
A mere copyist can grab a book an copy a lot of facts... actually, a computer can do it by itself....
 
A creative review, giving your opinion in an interesting way, well, that's another matter.... machines still can't do it by themselves....
 
So, I tend to let go factual errors if thew review is interesting, well written or at least in a style that entertains me and informs me of the feeling the reviewer got after listening to an album... If I want 100% true facts, I won't be "ignorant" enough to look them in subjective reviews... there are other places to do that... Of course, if the facts contained in a review are accurate, that's even better... but I won't dismiss a review just because it commits the crime of saying an album preceded one when it actually was released after it....
 
I called Kayo Dot post-metal and called their music atrocious... The first statement was completely wrong...Embarrassed I called Agalloch's music black metal and boring... both staements were kind of wrong....EmbarrassedEmbarrassed.... But I think those two are some of my most entertaining reviews.... The same goes with a LOT of reviews by fellow reviewers who write interesting, compelling-to-read little essays.... But, of course, there are many, MANY more that are good and ALSO accurate.... so, in a universe of thousands and thousands of reviews, complaining about some that show "ignorance" seems to me, well....to use a word much despised here, "pretentious".
 
WinkSmile


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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 13:54

A PM to the reviewer would seem like a friendly approach to the issue. They could then arrange for the error to be corrected.



Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 18:33
nice thread Walker....  a few errors doesn't really mean much to me.  A wrong key here, a kid crying in the the background there, a frisky girlfriend if you are lucky.  It's easy to  make an error or two if you aren't living in a bubble hahahha.  

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:21
Originally posted by Firefly Firefly wrote:

...perhaps "uninformed/misinformed" reviewers?
 
 
"Uninformed" is good. I have changed the title to that. Thanks.
 


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:26
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

I guess we are all completely flawless and never make any such stupid mistakes except for those poor losers Confused. So down with them!  Angry
Wink
 
I think you misunderstand me. I am not "putting down" the reviewer who makes a mistake. Goodness knows, I've made enough. What I am saying is that reviews with factual mistakes tend to make me dismiss the entire review and I am asking how others feel when they run across a review like that. I accept that my original title may have sounded harsh and I have changed it to something better.
 
 


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:28
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Ignorant is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. If you don't know something, you are by definition ignorant of it. I think you all are being to hard on Walker. He is not saying that he never makes mistakes, he is simply stating that reading misinformation in reviews is a turn off, and I agree.
 
Thanks!


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:30
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

complaining about some that show "ignorance" seems to me, well....to use a word much despised here, "pretentious".
 
WinkSmile
 
Again, I think you misunderstand me. I am not complaining about the inaccurate reviews, I am asking how people judge their merit.
 


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:35
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

nice thread Walker....  a few errors doesn't really mean much to me.  A wrong key here, a kid crying in the the background there, a frisky girlfriend if you are lucky.  It's easy to  make an error or two if you aren't living in a bubble hahahha.  
 
Thanks MIcky. Unfortunately I misplaced my frisky girlfriend a while back! Cry
 
 


Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:37
Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

I am not crazy about your topic title.
 
Where I come from to call someone ignorant is pretty rude.
Jody, where you come from the Hutts rule and Republic credits are of no value LOL
 
I'll ignore some factual errors if they are minor. I find the best thing to do with a situation like your example (i.e. unsure of the date of other material), is to say it reminds me of it (that has spared me a few embarassments). I don't always run my review through spell-check, or at least I didn't until I got promoted, and now I'm updating some of my more grammatacilly atrocious reviews. Personally, I find the highly subjective claims that aren't backed up (it's okay to for people to say they think DT is the best prog band of the new millenium, but for the love of God at least devote a sentence to why you think that). In the end, I feel that the setup of having collabs' and prog reviewers' reviews first is beneficial because we tend to check our stuff, and good non collabs are usually quickly spotted and promoted.


Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:39
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

A PM to the reviewer would seem like a friendly approach to the issue. They could then arrange for the error to be corrected.

 
Actually, I'm not really concerned about the review itself, but rather how people feel about it, but thanks for the suggestion! Smile
 


Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:40
Only to remember that in many countries the discography of several artists did not follow the chronology... specially in the vinyl era.Confused
 
I try to inform this situation in the reviews I've done for Jethro Tull, Yes, Genesis and ELP (for the case of Brazil, indeed). Here, the 2 first JT albums were released after Living In The Past and the 2 first Yes albums were released after Yessongs. Genesis' Trespass was released after The Lamb, etc, etc.


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Guigo

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Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:49
Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

Only to remember that in many countries the discography of several artists did not follow the chronology... specially in the vinyl era.Confused
 
I try to inform this situation in the reviews I've done for Jethro Tull, Yes, Genesis and ELP (for the case of Brazil, indeed). Here, the 2 first JT albums were released after Living In The Past and the 2 first Yes albums were released after Yessongs. Genesis' Trespass was released after The Lamb, etc, etc.
 
Good point, but I think if someone is going to write a review of "Trespass", then where it fits in the Genesis discography and how it relates to the general prog time-line is 'must-know" information. If you read a review of "Trespass" in which the reviewer expresses the opinion that Genesis took a step backward by recording an album like that AFTER having recorded "The Lamb..", then wouldn't that make you tend to dismiss the rest of the review as irrelevant?
 
 


Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 19:55
Originally posted by Walker Walker wrote:

Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

Only to remember that in many countries the discography of several artists did not follow the chronology... specially in the vinyl era.Confused
 
I try to inform this situation in the reviews I've done for Jethro Tull, Yes, Genesis and ELP (for the case of Brazil, indeed). Here, the 2 first JT albums were released after Living In The Past and the 2 first Yes albums were released after Yessongs. Genesis' Trespass was released after The Lamb, etc, etc.
 
Good point, but I think if someone is going to write a review of "Trespass", then where it fits in the Genesis discography and how it relates to the general prog time-line is 'must-know" information. If you read a review of "Trespass" in which the reviewer expresses the opinion that Genesis took a step backward by recording an album like that AFTER having recorded "The Lamb..", then wouldn't that make you tend to dismiss the rest of the review as irrelevant?
 
 
 
Those cases I spotted were really extremes (and after all one could find the release year, say 1975 and the production year, 1970, in the back cover). But some other cases could be disturbing: Floyd's "Atom..." and "Meddle" were released together (both in 1972), only a few months before DSOTM. Some distracted reviewer may confuse things here; but the recommendation is to check first the discography displayed in the band's page.


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Guigo

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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 20:03
Originally posted by Walker Walker wrote:

Originally posted by Firefly Firefly wrote:

...perhaps "uninformed/misinformed" reviewers?
 
 
"Uninformed" is good. I have changed the title to that. Thanks.
 
 
Thanks for that,and for not taking my post personally.Thumbs%20Up


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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 21:53
Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

I feel that the setup of having collabs' and prog reviewers' reviews first is beneficial because we tend to check our stuff, and good non collabs are usually quickly spotted and promoted.



Must be nice for you. Cry


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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 22:05
Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

I think the correct solution is.....

Proofread/Double-check grammer, spelling and accuracy.


Yes, please doLOL

I usually overlook them. Factual mistakes usually don't get in the way of giving me an idea of what the music is like(if someone says it's influenced by a song that was actually recorded a year later, I'll still know that it sounds like that song).


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http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm


Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 22:09
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
I called Kayo Dot post-metal and called their music atrocious... The first statement was completely wrong...Embarrassed I called Agalloch's music black metal and boring... both staements were kind of wrong....EmbarrassedEmbarrassed.... But I think those two are some of my most entertaining reviews.... The same goes with a LOT of reviews by fellow reviewers who write interesting, compelling-to-read little essays.... But, of course, there are many, MANY more that are good and ALSO accurate.... so, in a universe of thousands and thousands of reviews, complaining about some that show "ignorance" seems to me, well....to use a word much despised here, "pretentious".
 
WinkSmile


Your Kayo Dot review is painful... because both points are wrong... just the first one would be forgivable...Embarrassed Same with Agalloch but hey at least later saw the lightWink

I find your Shapes and Aura reviews more entertaining, (almost) up there with Clem's Triumph reviewsTongue


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http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm



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