Live Prog-rock is Dying
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40153
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 22:37
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Topic: Live Prog-rock is Dying
Posted By: Dean
Subject: Live Prog-rock is Dying
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 16:50
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This is a long rant, I make no apologies...
Playing live once was the life-blood of music. Now it is dying, and from the responses in this thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40091&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40091&PN=1 - now I see why
Playing live is where all lesser known bands make their money (the piffling trifle that it is). No one can make a living by just selling a few thousand CD’s on the internet (especially when a lot of their stuff is downloaded illegally) – bands have to tour, not just to promote their latest release, but to sell merchandise - that is also where they get their fan-base from, not from radio plays and chart positions, reviews on websites or articles in glossy magazines.
For unsigned acts MySpace is now such a gargantuan mess and over-run with signed and unsigned bands all vying for a small market share, so not even that is a valid means of self-promotion anymore. The situation for unsigned and self-financed acts is even worse – it is impossible to get a support slot on a major tour if you are unsigned – so they end up playing grotty little clubs and they rarely see anything from the door money (which generally is split between the club and the promoter to “cover costs”) – all they can hope for is to sell a few home-made demo CD’s and the occasional T-shirt then pray that a bigger promoter will see them and put them on a bigger bill, or perhaps some mythical A&R person will be in the audience and sign them up (that never happens).
The problem all live music faces is apathy – and I’ll put my hand up to this – I should have gone to see Tinyfish earlier this month, ( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39752 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39752 ), but I didn’t want to drive the 25 miles into South London to get there – and in the cold light of day that is a pathetic excuse. I haven’t asked Chopper how many people were at the gig – but the Peel is a small venue – I doubt if more than 200 people were present, 100 makes it look full – I’ve been to gigs where 20 people bothered to turn up and that is a very sad state of affairs.
These lesser known bands are the big groups of tomorrow.
So get off your backsides and go see a band play live – buy their CD, buy their T-shirts and badges, keep the genre alive at the grass-roots – even if it’s only once a month – you never know perhaps you’ll discover the next Dream Theater, Yes, Gentle Giant or Tool playing in a small venue in your home town. back in the day that's were they all started.
------------- What? |
Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 16:54
amen brother!!!!! 
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: asimplemistake
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 16:56
Seconded. |
micky wrote:Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 16:58
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Ha! 25 miles....try having to drive 200 miles to Chicago, 200 miles to Detroit, 300 miles to Cleveland and maybe (if you're lucky) 100 miles to Indianapolis just to see a show and then tell me how you feel about live acts.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 17:00
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Now your making me feel bad!
Sleepytime gorrila museum came last month and I didnt bother asking my parents to see them. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 17:04
Sorry, I wasn't just talking about travelling to see named acts - of course I've covered those distances to see signed bands - I am talking about small bands, playing in small clubs and bars - every town has some live music. ------------- What? |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 17:06
Not prog and Not in Fort Fun, Indiana. 
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 17:11
I feel for you, that must be a real downer. You (and those others issolated by geography) are excluded from my rant  ------------- What? |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 17:54
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Dean I didn't count the people there but I'm pretty sure it was less than 100. It is a small venue, probably only holds around 200 I would guess, but it does have a monthly prog night. I must admit I was expecting more people. It was a great gig btw. You really need to see them when you can. I think Darwin's Radio are on there next month. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 17:58
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Can I just add that over the last year or so, I've seen Greg Lake, Pendragon, Anderson and Wakeman, Spocks Beard and Tinyfish. All in small venues with great sound and you could see the band. Only Lake was more than £20. I've pretty much given up going to big gigs as I can't stand being somewhere like Wembley where you're miles from the stage and the sound is bad. I suppose the one good thing about prog not being so popular is that the tickets are cheap and the venues smaller. Anyway, well said Dean. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 19:47
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I just checked out a band on Friday. Not prog, but excellent anyway... I do my part. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 19:53
hahhaha... when Raff and I go out on tour to promote our first album.... we'll make err.. Fort Fun our first stop on the tour. We'll even give you and your lady friend a backstage pass. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 21:47
Fort Fun sounds like some sort of bastion from 1984. A double plus good bastion, mind you 
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 21:57
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Well, I may not see too many concerts now that I am here in Zero Beach, Florida, (there's nothing here but miles and miles of ocean), but I still do my part by buying lots of cds from the newer, unknown (at least outside of prog cirles) bands. I probably buy 15 cds a month, and a good half of those are from the newer unknowns. It is sad though that some of these bands with such talent are struggling artists, while a lot of crappy bands who couldn't play their instruments or compose a decent song if their lives depended on it, are elevated to superstar status. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 22 2007 at 23:22
Stonie, you are going to have to come visit me in Ann Arbor sometime (I know it's almost as far as Detroit). I saw California Guitar Trio here, and Fairport Convention was just here. I do agree. We should do all we can to support those struggling artists. Some of us can't do much traveling, but some can. I will gladly go to Chicago, or New york to see a great prog band. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 23 2007 at 19:36
| Now that I'm old enough to act without constantly asking my parent's permission, I'll be attending gigs whenever I can |
Posted By: dabaynton
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 16:39
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"Sorry, I wasn't just talking about travelling to see named acts - of course I've covered those distances to see signed bands - I am talking about small bands, playing in small clubs and bars - every town has some live music."
You haven't been to Caerphilly then have you - for a town that size, there isn't ONE decent venue - and I'm including clubs and bars in this.
Disgraceful! ------------- Shines On Brightly, Quite Insane....... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 17:07
Have been - did the usual - visited the castle, bought the cheese, went home before it got dark. Then, you are only 10 miles from Cardiff and South Wales does have a pretty good record in neo-prog (Magenta, Karnataka, The Reasoning). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 17:15
Dean - 
------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 17:40
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I think that in the not too distant future touring will be the only way most bands can make any money. The way that CD sales are plummeting means that in future bands will get less and less reward for original work. The model I see is that bands will use new albums as promotions for their live performances and charges for concerts will steadily rise. |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 18:32
| ^ I hope it doesn't turn out quite the way you put it because that would mean that the quality of music would sharply drop. If music becomes only a promotional tool it will be very bad indeed |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 18:45
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^ don't worry - you'll easily spot the change - it will be a heralded by a drop-off in CD sales and a rise in tribute bands. ------------- What? |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 21:13
The quality of music has dropped. That's why the mainstream is so awful. This is also why CD sales are dropping. The companies with the big money do not take risks anymore. So innovative musicians don't get any support. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 21:14
| I know it has dropped already but imagine if all music becomes nothing more than an aural flyer for gigs. |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 21:23
If everyone was like me, prog would be the #1 genre ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Meddler
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 21:36
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I wanted to see Tartar Lamb last Christmas (26th actually, in Cleveland, about 1 hour away) but I wasn't able to make it, I begged my parents. Oh well... now I'm sad remembering... ------------- [IMG]http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/amorfous/astro-1.jpg"> |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 21:55
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Well, for anyone in my vicinity, California Guitar Trio is going to be in Ann Arbor again on November 3rd. It's a great venue called The Ark. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 24 2007 at 23:16
OK, from now on let's start to focus on lesser and unknown bands, buy their albums (instead of downloading or copying, unless you are out of money) and attend their concerts, this is the first step to support your beloved category, otherwise the focus will remain on Yes, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, ELP and Genesis. Keep in mind that thanks to Prog Archives smaller progrock beauties like Bacamarte, Solaris, Triana, Le Orme, Yezda Urfa and Museo Rosenbach were brought into daylight so there is hope, good luck 
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 12:38
Right on Erik! 
This is a subject that I have thinking a lot about lately. Too much attention on bands who's songs we all know by heart. You have already started with your Symphonic Appreciation thread. I am planning on doing some things to promote hidden gems as well. Let's see if we can find others to join us. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 12:46
| So how many people on average attend prog shows in your area? |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:15
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Thanks Bhikkhu and I wish you good luck with your great efforts
 A few years ago in De Boerderij in Zoetermeer (The Netherlands),
capacity at about 600-800 spectators:
- After Crying: 25-30 spectators
- Anekdoten: 150-200 spectators
- Ange: 200-250 spectators
In comparison: Pallas, Ayreon Project and IQ all sold out concerts ..... say no more
 |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:49
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Those of you in California, start here when giving lesser known bands a chance: Dear Hectic Watermelon aficionados, Saturday 28th Lestat’s Hectic Watermelon is playing in San Diego this Saturday night with our friends from San Luis Obispo, The Travis Larson band. The show is at the great all ages venue, Lestat’s in Normal Heights, so maybe we’ll see some of you younger wipper-snappers! This may be our last show in San Diego for awhile. Epic diva, Nikki Flores 8:30
HWM 9:00-10:15pm
TLB 10:15-11:30pm Lestat's 3343 Adams Ave San Diego, CA 92116 (619) 282-0437 www.lestats.com Mike Keaneally’s School of Rock Today, we had a fantastic time playing for Mike Keneally’s School of Rock students who are hunkered down in summer camp mode at their new digs here in San Diego. Mike’s San Diego chapter kids have already performed The Wall at three local performances — including the San Diego Fair, so clearly the Master is already showing them the way! We look forward to playing with Mike and his kids in the future! Northern Cali’ Micro Tour We are excited to head up the coast in August to play in Monterey on Wednesday 15 August at Monterey Live with the Travis Larson Band opening. We will be in Santa Rosa Thursday, 16 August at the renowned Last Day Saloon. Additionally, we may have something brewing in San Jose on the 17th. It is great step forward to be able to bring our music out of our town to yours, so we look forward to letting you hear and see what we do. We deeply appreciate your efforts to help spread the word about these dates. Hectic Watermelon at your Private Party! Given that our Northern Cali’ weekend is not fully confirmed yet, I would like to make the band available for private performances if anyone is willing to host their own Northern HWM party from Friday the 17th to Sunday the 19th. We will be ridiculously affordable if you have good food! Please don’t hesitate to contact me for further info. How totally cool would this be? Hectic Watermelon in the John McLaughlin Concert Guide Honored we are to have the opportunity to have our album included as one of a very small number of ads in the sw**ky concert guide for Mr. John McLaughlin’s upcoming Fall tour. We are deeply grateful to our friends at Abstract Logix, Egnater Amlifiers and Ernie Ball guitars who are helping us out with this promotional opportunity. Of course you are all fans of his music, so be sure you check the dates! http://www.youtube.com/HecticWatermelon%20 - Hectic Watermelon on Youtube Sorry to lag on this so long, but we finally have some of our concert footage up on Youtube for you to enjoy. Please check them out and pass them around! Best Wishes, John Czajkowski http://www.hecticwatermelon.com/homebase.cfm - Hectic Watermelon ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: docsolar
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 00:54
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I'm 2 1/2 hours from any venue. I wish I could see a band play live...sometime... ------------- 
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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 02:04
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The only thing worse than going to a gig and finding sooo few people to share this brilliant music, is struggling to scrape together enough money to support our beloved acts, wishing you could do more...wishing you could change the system; not being able to attend any shows with like-minded people; not being within miles of anyone....anyone who shares your perspective on this form of art: and it's impossible not to express some kind of elitism watching the sh*t that is worshipped these days. Real musicians are busting their asses just to make a living, while slick marketing schemes and god knows what else skyrockets pimple-faced teenagers into "superstardom". Those of you who aren't strapped or isolated in creative wasteland, go to your rock and roll gigs, support this form of art, and most of all be thankful and enjoy it...do it for me and do it for all of us who can't share in the experience....
Nothing like catharsis that's for sure
 Hopefully when I'm done with school I can do some travelling and go on my progrock pilgrimmage...until then, working to put together extra spending money for prog-spree's will have to do.
cheers and prog on!
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 21:25
FOR SHAME! |
Posted By: coleio
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 13:43
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I don't see why this has anything to do with my thread mentioned in your original post Dean. I explained why I don't like live performances as much, and that also means I probably buy a lot more CD's than most of you because of that. It isn't as apocalyptic as you're making out either I don't think. Yeah people download albums, but it's mainly only really popular albums, and let's face it that aint prog! ------------- Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!! |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 13:45
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Because you can't find the obscure bands to download!!!! (Only a bit of a lie...) |
Posted By: coleio
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 13:48
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Hahaha I buy most of the CD's I own. Sometimes I download stuff to see what it's like, if I enjoy it which through my general research before hand I invariably do, I'll go and buy it. ------------- Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 13:53
same here... though I must admit I question my sanity when I see albums I have literally spent 1000's of dollars collecting, being so easy to download. Nothing beats having a hard copy though. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: coleio
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 13:54
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^Amen to that.
------------- Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 14:09
I never said it was - I took this outide your thread because it was not directly related. The responses to your thread indicated to me that people would rather sit at home listening to cd's than go out and see the band play. If I misinterpretted any of those replies then I appologise.
I can understand and respect why you don't go to gigs - but my proposition still holds - If no one goes to a gig, the band doesn't get signed and you cannot buy their CDs.
I don't know how many CD's you or anyone else buys, but I think most of the people here are above the national average when it comes to buying CD's.
No, it isn't as apocalyptic as I paint it - but it could be if the trend isn't reversed. I've put on gigs in the past - it is not difficult to book a venue and a few bands, even printing and distributing flyers is easy enough, but motivating people to actually attend is another matter all together.
I disagree that only popular albums are downloaded - read Nick Barrett's thread on the damage done to Pendragon from downloads - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39465&KW=barret - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39465&KW=barret
------------- What? |
Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 14:35
| The recording industry is what's in trouble. I would think that live music would be growing rather than shrinking. The experience of seeing a live show in person is not something that can be uploaded to a computer. If this is not enough to make money, than yes, music will stop being an industry. But there will always be new music...people don't always play music based on the free market's demands. I would think that we'll be seeing a reversal in the way music has been going since the invention of the radio (back from the studio to an emphasis on live music). And, frankly, I'm not at all sure this is a bad thing. It will certainly be different though...music will be more social, and it won't always be very cerebral (before radio, there were essentially three genres: folk songs, bar songs, and classical, which usually lags behind the other two in popularity). The focus will be on a fun live show. |
Posted By: coleio
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 19:46
Okay, cheers for explaining what you meant, and a lot of what you say in that post I've quoted above actually explains and clarify's what you mean, so thankyou for the response, most of which I actually agree with. ------------- Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!! |
Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: August 07 2007 at 19:33
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I would love to play even the crappiest of venues and i'd feel pretty lame if no one showed up to see me. I think it's good to support the guys who are trying to keep music alive. (i'm one of them) Prog can never die as long as there are so many people in the prog archives forum. some of us are bound to play a show and get noticed by at least someone, even if they're just fans that appreciate what we do. ------------- for those about to prog, we salute you. |
Posted By: Nicholas Linear
Date Posted: August 27 2007 at 14:35
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Adrian Belew was recently playing IN A COFFEE SHOP (Jammin Java) and I did not even now about it until afterwards. It was 15 minutes away and I didnt even see it. I'm still terribly frustrated by this ------------- there are three kinds of people. Those who can count and those who can't |
Posted By: tardis
Date Posted: August 31 2007 at 03:16
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Interesting blog...glad I came across it. Agree with certain points regarding supporting musicians live; if I didn't live in the middle of nowhere, I'd be accessing as much live music as possible. And in particular lesser known bands. Anyway, tired and fading...must retire to the temporary death known as sleep. |
Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: September 17 2007 at 22:02
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I'd love to travel to go and see some unsigned progressive rock bands, but: 1. I live in a small town in Michigan, which of course is in the US of A. There are rarely any live acts playing in my area, and if there are, they are nobody, worthless pop acts who's vocalists can't sing a note, and the rest of the band is made of complete and utter suxage. (That one at the festival....why must I be reminded of them? Oh, and not to mention they were so incredibly loud that I heard them fine all the way at the gas station) 2. I can't waste my gas driving all around my state, let alone traveling to other states. 3. I doubt the next Yes, Genesis, or King Crimson will come from America, meaning that the next great prog rock act will VERY likely come from the United Kingdom. Then again, there ARE some Genesis\Yes\King Crimson etc. etc. etc. bands\singers coming from this country... But you made a point anyway. That's how Genesis was discovered! (...Along with their songs being played on FM radio...BACK WHEN IT HADN'T SOLD OUT AND DJS COULD PLAY WHATEVER THEY WANTED) People read about Peter Gabriel's incredible stage act and people flocked to this new band from England like sheep to a Shepard. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: October 11 2007 at 17:02
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This is a fascinating read. Thanks darqdean and all who have contributed. I'd love to go to more concerts, but living in New Zealand makes things very difficult. We get only the very biggest acts, and few of them are prog (though I did go to THE MARS VOLTA this year and will be at the MUSE concert in a few weeks' time). At the other end of the scale are local NZ prog bands like JAKOB (check them out if you're into post-rock) but you have to keep a very close eye on them to find out when and where they're performing, and then take a six-hour trip by car. Europe seems to be the place to live. I'm tempted ... |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 11 2007 at 17:13
| gonna see Sleeping People at the end of this month |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: October 11 2007 at 23:11
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A small story:
A few weeks ago there was the Dutch Symforce Festival in the O13 venue in Tilburg, organized by Belgian proghead John 'Bobo' Bollenberg. The line up not only included known and experienced progrock bands like The Flower Kings, Riverside, Focus and Pendragon (on the main stage) but also lesser known and unknown new progrock bands like Beardfish, Lazuli and Bootcut (on the two other smaller stages). In the end I was not only delighted about Focus and Riverside their performances but also carried away by Beardfish and Bootcut their gigs: young and unknown new progrock bands that played inspired and enthousiastically for a small but grateful audience. It reminded me of the books I read about the early years of the Genesis when they performed in very small venues, sometimes for less than 10 progheads. But starting like that and then play and play and play and being on the road, doing the endless rehearsals is the perfect way to develop into a band like 70-77 Genesis. Unfortunately nowadays bands hardly get the opportunity to play gigs so I am very glad with the Symforce Festival. John told us that he intends to make it an annual festival but the tricky thing is that usually the average proghead only comes for known bands. And these relatively expensive bands (like Focus, The Flower Kings and Pendragon) make it very difficult for a break-even result, also on the Symforce Festival that needed 1300 but only 1000 bought a ticket. This means that the next time John has to play more safe, I hope this will mean that more lesser known and unknown new progrock bands will get a chance. So the most important thing is that the progheads are willing to support these bands, otherwise John his wish to make the Symforce Festival the European answer to the annual USA progrock festival Progfest and Nearfest will turn into a failed attempt.
I am positive about it because thanks to Prog Archives progheads from many countries encouraged each other to visit the Symforce Festival inthreads on teh Forum and in the end PA members from the UK, Portugal, France, Belgium and many from Holland teamed up, great But to be continued?
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:51
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^Small addition here - from the chat with Bobo at the end of the festival: he's concinced that the first edition of an event is not the right one to judge feasibility, so chances are that Symforce 2008 will take place. However, if the second one doesn't reach break even, chances of edition three are very low.... Of course, this only holds if the 013 venue, who were heavily investing in Symforce 2007, agree with Bobo's views. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Sydwaters
Date Posted: October 16 2007 at 23:55
| You need the pop sensibilities of the Beatles and the brilliance of Pink Floyd. Then again I'm waiting for that combination to happen. Be happy some of the most influential and biggest selling albums of all time are either proto prog of progressive rock. Sgt Pepper and the Dark Side of the Moon. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 17 2007 at 03:05
That's way off topic dude.  This thread is about peoples reluctance to go to live gigs that keep prog music (a)live.------------- What? |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: October 17 2007 at 03:48
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I find it weird, I was in college in the golden years of the late 80's when you could prog-out virtually everyweekend, and indeed that is exactly where the pennies went, The Marquee, The Town & Country , The Royal Standard, gig after gig after gig........fabulous!
It's not just the venues that have changed, but the punters have, as too have the bands........& I wouldn't necessarily be convinced about bands 'making money' by gigging.
 But, it would be nice to see more of not just the numbers, but the vibe that we used to se at gigs, there seems to be too much cynicism around,fake blase and 'too kool 4 skool' kind of attitude, and personally I think it sucks.
I also think the "buy CD's if you can afford them if not d/l them" attitude from Erik sucks, but I will do off topic if I talk about that one.
P-C
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: October 17 2007 at 05:46
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Strange Darqdean, I joined your thread with an inviting post but you react on a post that was off-topic and you complained about that. In fact that's typical for how it often works here on Prog Archives, negative posts got way more reactions than positive reactions! |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: October 17 2007 at 06:18
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alluding to your original post Dean you are right - these days i see many 1st division bands in safe major venues near home but i would like to see some sunday league players too, one reason i guess people don't see struggling fledgling bands, least of all Prog, but all too often they have to play in some dodgy backwater, really in these times travelling to these places late at night is a risk for anybody with or without a car. a friend of mine plays in an indie band but though i have often wanted to see him they are in some very dodgy areas, i even see people leaving big venues early (11pm) to start their journey home.
one suggestion would be to bring back the weekend or Sunday small band Festival like in the old days, but not in a muddy field miles from anywhere but an easily accessable venue, though some work would have to be done on publicity if it were to be a Prog festival, and a very brave financial backer - they did it successfully in Holland (and Market Square Heroes in Aylesbury) , i wish it could work here.
 -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: October 17 2007 at 10:13
One thought that has occured to me through the day (obviously not the only thought, but you know one thought about this subject... ) was that an awful lot of folks when defending torrenting or illegal downloading tend to say that it has a huge promotional effect, that it helps to widen the fan base of bands. Surely if this were the case (and you know that I maintain it is not) then we would see an upturn rather that a decline in audiences?
Just a thought.
PCx
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 17 2007 at 21:25
I don't know that there is or has been a downturn in attendance at music shows. If you have any numbers, I'd love to see them. It's only natural that some would see the Live concert biz as doing badly because their favourite band can only draw a few hundred people to a show. I saw Erik's posts re : the different draws from Anglagard, Ange & Anekdoten compared to Pallas, Ayreon & IQ. And although I'd die to see an Ange concert, I can see why they aren't the biggest draw outside of France, and even within their nation, their "prime" time is long past. I'm surprised that Pallas did well, but Ayreon & IQ seem to be doing well these days. Indeed, if it wasn't for the fact that Prog Montreal rescheduled their festival to the Saturday & Sunday instead of the original Friday & Saturday nights, I had made plans for a road trip up to Montreal to see the Strawbs the 1st night & then IQ the next night. And by all accounts, the festival was a success, with plansa already in the works for next year. One thing we should keep in mind is that niche bands will not sell out 1000 seat halls in too many places outside their home country. And most prog bands are niche with a capital N. The better ones can build up their fan base over time. But expecting those who we consider to be of a higher artistic level to automatically transfer that "talent" into attendance is not realistic. Gentle Giant never played to the same crowds that Yes & Jethro Tull did. And I would be surprised to find out that any RIO/Avant-Garde group or Krautrocker played a show on their own to major audiences (i.e. not including festivals). So just stating that we attend any & all shows to support a burgeoning scene is not a solution. But if a band that you like come by your town, by all means buy a ticket. Especially for the smaller bands. That's how the punk & indie/alt scenes keep healthy. Now mind you, I'm in Moncton NB, so I can easily say that knowing that hardly any prog groups come through here. Although we do have a healthy metal, punk, country & alternative scene. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 06:44
I've debated Nick Barrett and other members of the Pendie forums on the points Nick makes about filesharing. While I don't doubt that Pendragon are losing money, something which concerns me greatly, he oversimplifies things when he attributes such losses to filesharing alone. At one point he listed the number of downloads a Pendragon discography had and says "that's £X that we've lost", which just isn't true. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 09:46
Yes, it is true that the downloader would not have bought every album in Pendragon's discography , but the fact is the downloader now has a copy of every album in their possesion which they never paid for. If he/she/it owns them then they should pay for them, ergo, the Pendies are pennyless. The thing is, Barrett is allowed to oversimplify things, he owns the rights to the music, he created it, he paid for it to be recorded and produced - it belongs to him. It really is that black and white - there are no grey areas other than in the minds of people who have done wrong and are trying to justify it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 15:06
Say someone had never heard of Pendragon and has no money to spend on CDs, them downloading their albums makes little diffence beyong personal moral judgements. Personally, in such an instance, I think of it as a positive thing, because they might then go out and buy Pendragon albums when they have the money. If they don't, it's no loss as it's highly unlikely that they would have bought them either.
That's assuming you place high value on intellectual property rights. I don't. I think as many people should enjoy as wide a range of art as possible, and the right thing to do is to put back in as much as you can. It has zero effect on Nick if someone who would have never heard his music otherwise decides to download an album of his, in fact it can have positive effects (it does if you believe http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/ippd-dppi.nsf/en/ip01457e.html - this study ). An analogy I used on the Pendragon forum was someone watching their neighbour's firework display. What would be you reaction to you neighbout banging on your door and demanding you close your curtains and stop watching? I'd tell to F-off, I'm not hurting anyone. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 15:59
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I'll not discuss downloading in an open thread since some replies will be in direct violation of site rules. Iain, if you want to know why I think every thing you have written is erroneous, then PM me.
The topic of this thread is about people supporting Live music by attending gigs.
------------- What? |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 16:17
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Hmm you mentioned The Peel. I know that place is within 7 miles of my house. If anything comes up that's good I might be able to ask my parents to lend me money to go and hear a prog band on the prog nights. I would start contributing to lesser known bands if I knew when they were coming. Also if gigs weren't 18+ I'd definitely try to go, only got to wait like 7 months. |
Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 17:04
PM away.
On that note, I sadly don't see enough unsigned bands, certainly not Prog. I did buy one of Nine More Lies' EPs after seeing them support Marillion. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 17:29
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I know that concerts are the life-blood of a lot of bands (in fact, most have to support themselves with day jobs too). I used to go to a lot of gigs until I moved to a worse location and had kids. I do go to quite a free concerts supported by the municipalities or malls, and go to bars/ pubs to see bands now and then. I do try to check out some acts from the Vancouver jazz festival most years, and some blues and folk fests, but I rarely see Progressive rock bands. Oh, I saw Floyd once, but it's not like they needed my support. I would definitely like to see more Prog bands (especially chamber rock and more jazz/fusion), but I have had troubles tracking down information on those concerts in the past. Seattle has had some good ones, but making the trip would have been inconvenient. I prefer seeing bands in smaller, more intimate venues (commonly at certain bars but also at community arts centres where the musicians are paid). They may not get much money (sometimes bands do it for free), but they do get free drinks (be it beer, wine, or coffee). And I do go the symphony every once in a while, but that's different. There's not a strong Prog movement in these parts that I'm aware of. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: cynthiasmallet
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 17:31
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I don't think prog rock is dieing at all- in fact i'd go as far to say that it was making a very serious 3rd wave come back. Bands such as 65 days of static and The Mars Volta are massively popular in the underground amongst cool people, and they're (especially TMV) progressive to the core. ------------- Would you like to watch TV, or get between the sheets, or contemplate the silent freeway, would you like something to eat? |
Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: December 06 2007 at 12:39
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Trouble with live music is that you have no control over the sound. The last few times I have heard live music they are just too damn loud. Yes I like my music loud but not so that it hurts. Personally I like to listen to the music not enter some macho competition to see who can stand the loudest sound.
The DT concert in Wolverhampton recently was just awful. There was a constant bass sound for Symphony X which drowned out everything else. I don't know why the singer/drummer and lead guitarist turned up - I barely heard them. A slight improvement for DT but not much.
If this is typical of all other bands then I'll stay at home and listen to their CD. Not a download as I don't do downloads. I'll listen to promo sample tracks to see if I like the music and buy the CD if I do.
Not to mention the recent epidemic of crap drumming - but that's enough about the DT concert
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 06 2007 at 14:56
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I think the main problem Rob is that most soundmen are deaf as posts. I've been to many gigs where the sound is actually distorting in the speakers and when you politely point that out to the soundman, it tells you to go away (or words to that effect). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: December 06 2007 at 15:30
ok, I don't want to get back to the d/l discussion and spoil the thread but one VERY real effect of the loss of sales is that more bands/artists are hitting the road, everyone is trying to sqeeze every penny they can out of what they do, not through greed but through a VERY necessary need to pay the bills, and out of a very REAL determination to continue making music. This though is having the effect of the most popular prog friendly venues are being flooded with gigs, this in turn means that rather than all the gig going local punters coming to your show (cos prog shows are scarse) they are in a rare position where they are choosing which gigs to attend (lets face it no one has bottomless pockets) so the already small live audience that is available is deciding between 4-6 gigs a month rather than which one or two to attend.......everyone is being stretched.
That analogy is utterly flawed.
IF your neighbour was earning his living out of the revenue of firework spectators then you might be getting somewhere, but bypassing someones legitimate way of earning his living through utter selfish neglect of fair play is not really cricket is it?
When an artist says they are sturggling, what do you imagine, do you think that the big shiny car will have to skip a waxing one week, or that the maid gets the push, or that the pool boy is on reduced salary?........... or do you think of an artist worrying about food bills, selling their possesions, turning down the thermostat and praying for a mild winter?
Really, which do you imagine?
I don't understand. What drives people to gigs, or makes them shrug their shoulders and stay home?
When Peter & Nick from Pendragon played a FREE accoustic gig in Birmingham last month I only saw 2 other Pendie fans their, both had illegally downloaded the entire catalogue (inc dvd's) neither spent a penny all night.
That my friends is both sickening and shocking.
It's no hollow threat to say that we WILL lose some superb recording artists soon. And we will lose them due to our own complacency, laziness and lack of respect........ then one day all these discussions will become historical.
PC |
Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: December 07 2007 at 15:37
There are undoubtedly a number of reasons. Speaking personally (I don't want to sound like a narcissist, but I like to stick to what I know), I don't go to many gigs for the following reasons: 1) Money. Most gigs I've been to have cost ~£20 a throw. Personally I'd rather pay half that and get a DVD of a performance that I can watch again and again in the comfort of my own home. 2) Competing entertainment. There is mush more to choose from on Television these days, the Internet to surf and DVDs to watch. 3) Hassle. I went to see Gary Moore the other week and very nearly missed the last bus home. Had he played one more encore I'd have had to catch a taxi which I can't really afford. On top of this, many of my favourite bands that I want to see don't come to Nottingham, and I can't afford to pay to take a train to Sheffield or Birmingham and rent a hotel room for the night on top of the cost of the ticket and tour-shirt (which I usually buy at gigs) 4) I suffer from excutiating pain in my back if I stand up for an hour or more. Codeine barely takes the edge off, and is usually wearing off toward the end of the gig when the pain is at its worst. It almost totally ruined by experience of the Marillion gig I attended earlier this year, and certainless lessened my enjoyment of Porcupine Tree and Gary Moore. It isn't been a problem in sitting gigs I've been to (Deep Purple, The Australian Pink Floyd Show and Steve Vai) but these shows are usually more expensive. This probably only effects a few people, though. 5) Anti-social people. I get extremely anxious in large crowds of people at the best of times, without idiots bustling past me every few minutes. People talking and yelling through quiet bits of the songs, whistling right next to my head (which I'm fairly sure does more damage to my hearing than the loud music) and generally showing what I consider to be a lack of respect. My first proper gig experience was Fish back in early 2005 and that put me right off the whole thing until this year, pretty much. Two people infront of me I suspect objected to me singing through some of the songs. Fair enough, they could have politely turned round and asked me to stop if it was bothering them. What they shouldn't have done was pushed me back into the barrier and repeatedly and deliberately struck me with their arms throught the gig. I ended up getting cramp because they had me so totally pressed. They are some of the reasons I don't go as often as I'd like, or perhaps should (I've been to 5 this year IIRC, and am seeing to more this month). They probably don't apply to everyone, but at least one applies to most people. And of course the fewer hardcore fans a band has, the fewer people will show up.
It is rather sad, particularly if they really are fans. How old were they? |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: December 07 2007 at 15:57
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I understand the reasons you give here FS, I don't go to as many gigs as I would like simply because I can't afford to !
The guys in Birmingham? two guys with good jobs (they told me) in their 40's. Shameful!
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: December 07 2007 at 16:16
That really does piss me off that people can be like that. Freeloaders with no excuse. |
Posted By: ES335
Date Posted: December 12 2007 at 20:46
Enjoy it while you can. Someday you'll be married and back at square one.
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Posted By: Real Paradox
Date Posted: January 25 2008 at 18:20
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IM PART OF THE NEO-PROG THIRD WAVE!!!!!!!!! Its my duty! For the sake of King Crimson,Caravan,Genesis,Pink Floyd,Uriah Heep,ELP,Gentle Giant,Rush,Frank Zappa,Procol Harum,The Moody Blues, Soft Machine ,Egg and many more...AND IF IM DOING IT I go retro...F*** Prog Metal...Its getting too popular!! ------------- What is This? It is what keeps us going... |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: January 25 2008 at 18:38
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I just have no time to go to live gigs, particularly proggressive acts since they hardly ever come close to my area. The only prog bands i've seen live are Tool and Explosions in the Sky. (and the tool tickets were outrageously expensive!) but it was a killer show. oh and i guess i saw the Moody Blues when i was in the 3rd grade but i hardly remember that. I would absolutley LOVE to go support the bands i love but it just doesnt happen.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 25 2008 at 21:32
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if prog rock is dying... why the hell do I have 80 new bands.. from Italy alone .. that I have been screening this week.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 25 2008 at 21:39
| Someone will always be progressing rock, you just have to pay attention |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 25 2008 at 21:42
and still others will feast upon the carcass of earlier work that was truly progressive. Sometimes with success.. other times not. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 25 2008 at 21:49
| indeed |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: January 25 2008 at 22:44
Poor Ian! SGM live is an experience to be beheld. I try too see every prog act that swings by, but even in a big city like New York, that doesn't happen as often as one might think. I still do my best. -------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 26 2008 at 05:06
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I must confess that in my older years I don't get out to see bands live as much as I used to. I've missed more than a few good ones unfortunately. When I do manage to make it to a prog band show there's usually a decent crow attending. My support for prog artists these days comes in the form of buying their CDs. Illegal downloading is out of the question for me not just for moral reasons but because if I like an artist I've absolutely got to have a hard copy. Just look at my collection displayed in my signature: ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 26 2008 at 05:11
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But even if you do live near a major city, some bands just never make it to your area. I know Djam Karet never plays much outside of California. Don't know if the Reasoning ever plans to drop by Atlanta anytime soon. (If you guys are reading this and do plan to ask my advice about venues :) )
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: January 26 2008 at 23:55
A lot of a lie -- rather, I bet there's practically nothing that I myself couldn't find, not that it wouldn't be available elsewhere. And downloads aren't the scapegoat we'd all like them to be, since downloaders buy more CDs than those who do not download. Live gigs will have to be the bread and butter of the industry, as they were prior to recorded music (and they remained so until relatively recently). Composers and symphonies make their money almost exclusively from live performances. Of course, they also don't have the problem of being painfully loud like many shows these days. I've been considering going to one of those shows in April with Symphony X, Epica, and Into Eternity. The question, though, is whether I'll be able to deal with the noise. ------------- Hail Eris! 
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Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: January 27 2008 at 11:48
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Since I live in Puerto Rico the only prog bands that come to Puerto Rico are the big ones, and even they even think twice about going here! Ever since I discovered Prog in 2005 I've been to every prog concert since then, but I still haven't seen a Puertorican Prog band... yet. So far the only known Prog bands that have come to Puerto Rico since 2005 are: Dream Theater, Mago de Oz, Symphony X and Rush (coming this April). There's not much of a variety, but I'm always happy to see the few prog bands play here. ------------- 
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Posted By: Paradox
Date Posted: January 27 2008 at 12:44
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I'm just not all that interested in live music, unfortunately. None of the gigs I have ever been to compare to the studio, but then I suppose they're never going to.
Prog isn't ever going to die. ------------- 
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: January 27 2008 at 13:49
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This is why I must see Kayo Dot in March
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Posted By: Apsalar
Date Posted: January 27 2008 at 18:48
| I have always been a fan of attending the lesser know / local up and coming acts, and thoroughly enjoy the more personally homely environment of the more compact venues. Also the intermingling with the actually artist is a great experience. I remember standing next to Mat Chalk (psycroptic) while watching Destroyer 666, when I was fledgling young chap of 16. These days I find myself deterred from the grandstand attractions; last year I refused to attend the Tool concert here in Aus because of the crowds, despite them being my favourite band. I'm ashamed to admit I missed our improvisational festival this year up in Sydney though this was through no wont of my own. I will be spending much time overseas this year and will be trying to coincide my stays with several concerts. |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: January 27 2008 at 20:33
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If record labels and companies weren't so greedy, this wouldn't be a problem in the first place. As far as live music goes, I need quite the show rather than hours of guys playing their instruments. I would kill for a chance to go back in time and see a golden-era Genesis show. Sleepytime Gorilla Museum and Kayo Dot are other bands I would love to see live, but haven't been around in a while. Same for Broken Social Scene and etc. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: sean
Date Posted: January 27 2008 at 22:10
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I actually tend to prefer live music. Even if the sound quality isn't as good as in the studio, most good bands will have an energy present in the live music that a studio recording can't capture, and the music live is more powerful, intense, and moving. Again, there are some bands that can't do this, especially in the pop world where they lip sync and it is more about looks than the music (my sisters have seen Britney Spears and Hannah Montana, so I've gotten to hear all about those, but luckily one sister stopped liking Britney Spears afterwards because she was so bad live with the lip syncing and such). That energy factor is why a miracle needs to happen and VdGG has to come to America this summer. I've heard live recordings of them, and even when they're not on the top of their game they are just so intense. By the way, I go to a lot of local concerts and bigger ones when I can afford them, but I can't afford 65 dollars to see Rush all the time. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 02:51
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^ The Enid are another band who had that intensity on stage that they couldn't recreate on record (even their live albums ). I saw then on numerous occasions towards the back-end of the 70s and was blown away by what the produced on stage, and by the way they could capture the audience attention, yet they never had that effect on album. ------------- What? |
Posted By: ES335
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 08:28
This really isn't that long.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 13:21
^ no it isn't, but thanks for the bump.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: sean
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 16:20
maybe that explains why i didn't really care for the stuff I had heard. |
Posted By: Dominic
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 17:30
Live music is boring & the quality sucks. I have to stand up for a long period of time; all those stupid instruments are turned up and get in the way of Steve Wilson's voice, which never sounds as good as on my MP3 player... |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 17:34
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Really? I think my tolerance of music I only *sort* of like becomes improved when I'm listening live. It's much easier to appreciate the efforts the band are undertaking and the chorus moments are always so much more infectious. Of course, you'll rarely sound the same way live you do on stage, but it's an event to be appreciated separately from all that. I'm working towards having a little free money to spend every month, and when I get to that point I think I'll try and support prog bands in general, by watching their shows, even if it's the bloody Flower Kings. =) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: khammer99
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 19:00
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The problem for me, isn't so much about distance ( I live 1-1/2 to 2 hours from most venues) but more of not hearing ANY new prog bands coming to town. I'm on a bunch of lists for most of the venues in my area, (both large and small), but since none of the newer bands are being played on the radio, I'm not sure who to check out. And I still love the live concert atmosphere, especially the anticipation that goes with seeing the band. Stuff like: What's on the set list, will they be tight, what type of visual show, what stoned out fool is going to embarrass themselves, which chick might raise her shirt, etc. ------------- Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up. - Terry Pratchett |
Posted By: sean
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 20:28
How is it boring? Especially when you're mentioning a band like PT, who I think is pretty intense live and the visual show is amazing. Not only that, but the intimacy of having the band right there is one of the most powerful feelings. Plus, PT has some of the best live sound quality I've heard, Steven Wilson is quite the perfectionist when it comes to audio quality. Also, I doubt the quality is that good on your mp3 player anyway, compressed files suck. Another reason CDs are better than downloading. |
Posted By: Dominic
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 20:53
 Daggum, satire doesn't come across too clearly with text. Anyways, i believe that if someone is really interested in music then they will be interested in going to live shows. (whatever genre it might be) For instance, some months back i went to see Tool and the only friends that thought the oh so horrible 1 hour drive was worth it just happened to be musicians. |
Posted By: KeleCableII
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 21:30
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The problem I have with CDs is their ridiculous prices, so now instead of just downloading music I've been buying used records on vinyl for less than 10 bucks a pop (sometimes just 50 cents or a dollar). Does this erase any moral problems I might have? I don't know; I'm getting a much cooler package than I would get from downloading but the artist still isn't seeing any of it, just the record store. Or for example, IQ's Dark Matter was just released on vinyl. I'd love to get it but it will cost 35 dollars. That's very difficult for me to justify. I was hoping for a 20-25 dollar price tag but they overshot that. But Comus' First Utterance new vinyl for 18 dollars? Hell yeah. |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 17:17
More seriously, the people do get in the way of the music. If prog concerts were more like classical concerts, life would be good.  ------------- Hail Eris!
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