Ten steps to environmental nirvana...
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Topic: Ten steps to environmental nirvana...
Posted By: mystic fred
Subject: Ten steps to environmental nirvana...
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 14:52
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How to really help "Live Earth" - instead of flocking to Wembley like a lot of dopes who haven't a clue about Global Warming, and seeing bands there who are only there to get some much-needed publicity and exposure (except maybe the 'Chillies and Metallica), follow Mystic Fred's easy guide to saving the Planet for our descendants !
...what have we got to lose.....? Step One - don't waste valuable resources going to "Environmental" pop concerts - stay at home and watch it on your energy saving flat screen telly, there you can eat your organic snacks in peace and won't have to spend hours waiting to be frisked and walking miles finding a loo.
Step Two - Work from home - link up with your office via your pc, therefore saving petrol and polluting the atmosphere with carbon emissions. Alternatively get a workplace you can walk to - no more problems if it snows!
Step Three - get rid of the car - if you do really have to travel build a bike from "recycled" spares.
Step Four - stop using Supermarkets - ("buy one get one free" is tosh, you'll end up eating too much or throwing it all away anyway) all their stuff is transported half way across the world using fossil fuels and causing carbon emissions, much better to go to your local shops and buy only locally grown food - the excersize will do you good and you might get to know your neighbours!
Step Five - stop flying in Aeroplanes - they are the biggest polluters and wasters of fuel - do you know how many gallons they dump before landing? If you must pollute other countries use the coach, train or go by ship, still polluting but many times less than planes.
Step Six - Supplement with your own food - seeds are easy to plant and the food from your own garden, grown with your own hard work tastes much better, doesn't it?
Step Seven - Grow your own flowers - many are flown in from other countries, and we don't buy anything imported now, do we?
Step Eight - Install your own solar panels in the roof of your house - impress the neighbours and watch those 'leccy bills plummet!
Step Nine - Adopt recycling like it was a Religion - one day it will become more important than religion anyway, so instead of wasting time going to Church spend Sunday morning at the local dump!
Step Ten - Get rid of the pets - they waste valuable resources - sheep, chickens, pigs and cows are far more useful than cats and dogs, and very friendly when you get to know them!
So any suggestions how to save the environment, or suggestions where I can stick my suggestions, will be gratefully appreciated!
  -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Replies:
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 18:37
Hmmm... I like Step 2 but didn't like Step 10. In the end pets are valuable 'cause they are eating mainly parts that will become garbage: bones, fat, etc for manufactured food and leftovers for home food. Pets help children begin to know about the other beings that share with us the planet and also very good fellows for lonely, old and disabled people. 
Step 10 could be changed to: "stop getting pets from the wild". The number of birds, marmosets, monkeys, lizards, snakes, bugs, etc taken from their native places is astonishing and this illegal trade must end now!
------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Mikerinos
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 19:57
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Also, if you do buy pets, it's better to buy ones rescued from the wild rather than buying from a pet store or someplace else where it was likely to have been breeded in a puppy mill (cute word, but awful thing, Google if you don't know what that means). It's cheaper, and the money goes to an animal santuary rather than supporting a puppy mill. And I'm a pretty big recycling geek. I always keep looking for a recycling can if I can't find one (sometimes I go a pretty far distance, but it's good to get a walk in), and a lot of times when I see recyclables thrown out in my house, I move them to the proper location (my family doesn't care as much as me...) ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 20:06
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Wrong: i can give TWO steps to environmental nirvana...
1. put a couch and a stereo in the middle of your backyard, wearing a hippie t-shirt, fuchsia sunglasses, no shoes, big pants, bandana, smoking green stuff....
2. put a copy of NEVERMIND into the stereo... there you go... ------------- 
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Posted By: Mikerinos
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 20:10
The prog band Nirvana is better than the grunge one (then again, that's not saying much) -------------
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The T wrote:Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 20:15
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Step One - don't waste valuable resources going to "Environmental" pop concerts - AGREE... "environmental concerts" are money-making concerts anyway.. do you really think the band donate their money to enviromental causes? I don't know... I wouldn't hold my breath though...
Step Two - Work from home - AGREE IF POSSIBLE... really, until I have a degree, I have to work hourly jobs.. I don't see how my employer (a big retail chain) will allow me to work from home..
Step Three - get rid of the car - AGREE... IF YOU LIVE ANYWHERE BUT IN FLORIDA...Here you are just NOBODY without a car.. sad but true..
Step Four - stop using Supermarkets - NOT AGREE... might agree if there were local shops everywhere like in my country.. but even those stores don't have high quality products... and here in Florida, well, I'd have to drive miles to find a local shop, so I'd end using more gas...
Step Five - stop flying in Aeroplanes -
 ... OK! I'll start fying in helicopters or friednly hawks then...Really, if you have to go to China, is it realistic to say "take a ship"....NOT AGREE.Step Six - Supplement with your own food - AGREE
Step Seven - Grow your own flowers - AGREE... but please, don't confuse with "grow your own plants, if you know what I mean...
 Step Eight - Install your own solar panels in the roof of your house - AGREE.. if you give me the money to buy them, I'll do it. If not, let me work OUTSIDE using MY CAR to go to my job to earn money to buy them.
Step Nine - Adopt recycling like it was a Religion - I COULDN'T AGREE MORE if by that we get rid of all the Pat Robertsons and fanatic christians and muslims....But as idiot an animal as the human is, there would be jihads or "holy wars" based on the environment...
Step Ten - Get rid of the pets - SHUT THE  ......  (my two cats were adopted from a shelter, by the way). -------------
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Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 20:34
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Step eleven - commit suicide, if your not here then there is no way you can f*** with the enviroment.
but seriously most of those are good suggestions except numbers 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10.
2: economy would not work if we all worked from home, who would make things, how would you get them to the consumer, who would fix my toilet?
3: I notice you are from england. in europe there is public transportation such as trains. Here in denver there is one way out of town and that is the interstate, there is ONE lightrail that goes from my house to the city and that is all, and there is no way to reach most towns in the US if you dont drive there. This would be better worded as dont drive cars when at all possible.
4. Thats great if you live in a big city but in most small towns in the US there are three stores, they gennerally go by the names of Wallmart, Texaco and McDonalds, not many choices there. It would be more reallistic to say: buy food locally and not from supermarkets whenever possible.
5. If you have to travel long distance what choice do you have? If you take a car it will take longer and as it takes longer you will continue to pollute evry place that you stop.
10. Cats and Dogs are usefull in china, we could make them usefull, but then you wouldent go for that, far too cute. My dog is good, she guards my house as I have no security system and she helps me hunt in order to fulfill step six.
I hope you do all of these things, I would not like to associate with a hipocrite, if you dont do all ten of your steps than you should try my step 11.
------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 21:20
I agree - we cannot all work from home, but those that can, could and probably should.
I agree. Public transport does not work in rural parts of England (and Europe) either, but were it does work it should be used and *most* of the population generally lives in urban areas where there is adequate public transport.
At present consumption and polution rates there will come a time when personal transportation will not be practical anyway.
The solution is to put presure on the big stores to sell local produce. There are major stores (eg Whole Foods Market) in the US that only sell local produce - though some of their methods are a bit suspect. The average "food-miles" for fresh produce in the US is between 1000 and 2000 miles!
If you have no choice, you have no choice. However, studies have shown that it is always cheaper to drive than fly ( http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/070530/30travel.driving.htm?s_cid=rss:30travel.driving.htm - see here ) and if it is cheaper then it must polute less by default.
(This year we have chosen to sail to France for our vacation rather than fly.)
no argument there - my cat's keep me calm and also keep down the vermin. ------------- What? |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 22:29
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I agree with some of your points, Fred; others, not. It is an entirely different situation in the densely populated England and the sprawling US, and with the issue of public transport, it's basically unworkable for me, in a city of 200,000-300,000 people with little to no taxi service, few buses, and no rail system whatsoever. Biking is my mode of transport for short distances on good days, but in the late fall/winter, I can kiss that luxury goodbye. Living on a small university campus will do me good, as I can bike anywhere except home, which is 20+ miles of highway each way--too much to stand. I agree recycling should be embraced totally, and its a damn shame it hasn't been. I'm reading a book by Robert F. Kennedy, "Crimes Against Nature," about the Bush Whit House's f**king up of the environment on so many levels. The cronyism and backtracking of protection laws just kills me. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 02:15
My dog is going to kill you while you sleep. Even better, my uncle's Alaskan Malamutes will kill you (my dog is kind of a wuss, but they're huge) while you're awake so I can enjoy your screams.
Where the hell am I supposed to find locally grown food in Manassas, Virginia? It's a wasteland. Overeating is not a problem for me: I am over 6'2'' and weigh 185 pounds.
Recycling is overrated. :P
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Posted By: R o V e R
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 02:27
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Step Two - Work from home - link up with your office via your pc, therefore saving petrol and polluting the atmosphere with carbon emissions. Alternatively get a workplace you can walk to - no more problems if it snows!
Step Three - get rid of the car - if you do really have to travel build a bike from "recycled" spares.
Step Four - stop using Supermarkets - ("buy one get one free" is tosh, you'll end up eating too much or throwing it all away anyway) all their stuff is transported half way across the world using fossil fuels and causing carbon emissions, much better to go to your local shops and buy only locally grown food - the excersize will do you good and you might get to know your neighbours!
Agree I'm doing it,... I work from home,. No car, I use my bicycle and get my vegetables from local shops,. and got few plants in my garden,. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 02:32
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some interesting points for discussion - I thank you all so far for some very revealing comments!
My "suggestions" were deliberately put in a way to sound utterly ludicrous, but quite often today's ludicrous suggestion is tomorrow's accepted way - for most of us today it would be impossible to adopt most or hardly any of these environment-saving suggestions, as we are conditioned to using the the infrastucure we have found ourselves with, most of these "steps" are of course unthinkable for us now, but 100 years ago people were doing all these things quite happily (the recyclers of the late 1940's and 1950's would put us to shame, but their situation was forced upon them by wartime conditions and shortages) - supermarkets didn't exist, hardly anybody had a car except the Doctor, domestic animals were their pets, most grew vegetables and flowers in their garden without pesticides, a holiday was a day trip to the seaside in a motorbus, they shopped at the local market, and most people did go to Church! - the point is, we find ourselves trapped by progress, enjoying a luxury lifestyle our great-grandparents would have hardly dreamed of, nothing wrong with that of course, we've worked hard for it, but 100 years into the future our descendants may have to adopt a leaner lifestyle when resources become scarce, maybe even having to follow the "suggestions" above by law .
I agree with the pet issue, perhaps it sounds a bit harsh but there are no passengers on the environmental journey, everything has to be useful - cats were traditionally used to keep the mouse/rat population down, how many these days work for their keep? - most wouldn't dream of getting rid of their cat of course, but even i remember in the 1950's my neighbours keeping chickens and growing some of their own food, meeting each other at the local shops across the road, my dad cycled 8 miles into London every day to work, we walked everywhere (i walked to school) and occasionally used the bus, nothing was thrown away, i even wore all my big brother's old clothes. One down side was that we used coal fires which did cause pollution, gas central heating soon solved that problem.
I should have also included only building your own furniture with wood from your own country's replenished forests, but 10 steps is enough to be going on with! Also if you sell your car(s) you can afford to buy those solar panels - your carbon footprint is getting much smaller - it's practically disappeared!
 ------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 02:39
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Step 37 - Give the Whistler all your cash...since, uh, money is a paper good, and therefore evil. The Whistler shall use your despicable paper money to buy non-tree destroying plastic...most notably spare copies of the very environmentally friendly Heavy Horses. All left over money will go towards building my mansion...my GREEN mansion. It will be built of emeralds. Cool in the summer, no need for AC. ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 03:17
like everybody for me it would be extremely difficult to adopt all the steps, but -
step1, only for the music
step 2 -i can cycle to work easily, will do it this summer as i'm not on shifts.
step 3 - will have to stop using the car someday, but others less active rely on me!
step 4 - i only shop in supermarkets for others less active, i would rather go to the local shop or market, but buy British produce if it is there (no Cox's!) .
step 5 - haven't flown since 1989, never intend to again.
step 6/7 - i grow tomatoes, planning on other foods - i refuse to use any insecticides, which cause ecological devastation, these should be banned by law. there are other ways to deter bugs.
step 8 - big project - seriously considering for the future
step 9 - where i live recycling is almost a religion already by law, but not by all.
step 10 - i wouldn't dream of dumping my cat - would have to get permission from the council for chickens.
------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 08:29
| Step 10 - why do people have pets anyway? Personally I think its a domination thing |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 08:44
| Another thing: Don't leave things (TVs for example) on stand-by, turn them off completely. Saves a lot of energy. If everyone in Sweden who has a TV turned it off properly instead of leaving it on stand-by, we would be able to shut down another nuclear reactor (we've already shut down two in recent years). |
Posted By: magnus
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 13:33
But why shut down the nuclear power reactors?  Nuclear power is THE most environmentally friendly source of power available to man today, I hope we can start building a few of them here in Norway soon. ------------- The scattered jigsaw of my redemption laid out before my eyes Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 14:29
That's unbelieveable!
No, really, it is...
Worse case scenario is http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/housingbuildings/localauthorities/information/faqs/index.cfm?ty=1&category_id=8#q135 - 7W on standby (most are closer to 3W, modern TV's are 1W). Over one year that is 44KWh per TV.
The Population of Sweden is 9 million with http://www.eu-esis.org/Basic/SEbasic00.htm - 4.2million TV sets .
That gives a total of 0.184TWh.
In 2001 http://www.nea.fr/html/general/profiles/sweden.html#nppstatus - Sweden's 11 nuclear power stations generated a total of 70TWh , the equivalent of 6.36TWh/station
Which means that you would be able to switch off les than 3% of one power station!
And you can forget about unpluging your phone charger - it does not draw any power when not charging a phone. I know - I emailed the engineers at Nokia and asked them directly.
By all means - switch off your TV - because 0.184TWh is a stupid amount of electricity to waste heating your livingroom while you are at work or sleeping - and that would be the equivalent of 400 metric tonnes of carbon emissions if the electricity was not nuclear generated (nuclear is carbon zero - sorry you cannot count it twice) ------------- What? |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: July 08 2007 at 16:07
You're missing the point by an almost unbelievably wide distance. But it is nice to know that there is someone more soulless than I. :D
You can't find anything revealing on the internet, fred, because this isn't real.
People have had dogs for a long time. Most of them were more useful back then, but there were plenty of superflous pets.
People bought locally grown foods back then because that was all they had. It's very difficult to even find locally grown food now because everything has been industrialized, and we can't go back now.
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 07:58
Re recycling; we're pretty lucky in that Stevenage council have provided every household with specific bins to recycle cans, paper, glass & even organic/garden waste (face it, few people actually use the composters the councils also gave out) & these are collected weekly; as far as plastics are concerned, the local dump's very good for this - in fact, whenever you go the the dump now, you have to show them exactly what you're getting rid of, and if it can be recycled, you have to use the correct skip, so well done, our council  .
On a related note, go into the 'Progressive Music Lounge' and see how many subjects are recycled again, and again, and again... 
Now... Pets waste resources?!? 
If it weren't for the pet food industry, where would all the unmentionables from abbatoirs go, eh? All the lips, eyebrows, nipples & intestines? There'd be a world glut of sausages, that's where! ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Novalis
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 08:25
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Very good, except 9 & 10. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 14:08
See my replies posted in red
To finish, let's get real. Buying locally is a great idea ... when practicable. I would not ask a welfare family or pensioner to pay more for food just so I can feel good about myself. I don't much care for Walmart, but a consumer society study in Southern Ontario showed that people on fixed incomes (i.e. the aforementioned) save up to 10% by shopping at Walmart. Even the quadraplegic mayor of Vancouver who is far from being a capitalist apologist sees the good that our idealism sometimes refuses to see. And asking the government to pass laws to force people to do things they don't believe are necessary will never fly. These same people will vote those governments out. Why ? Because the reality is that our suppliers of food, energy, consumable goods et al, are the major producers of the damaging pollution. SO until the population at large demands that their government outlaw excessive pollution, & actually enforce these laws, then establish global standards, and also amend trade deals to punish countries or ban products that don't meet these requirements, then all the hair shirt hurrahs for the dream days supposedly just around the corner if we all just did the undoable is just talk & wasted talk at that. WHoo, now for a deep breath. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 14:15
If it wasn't for the Tull reference, I thought for sure this was from The T ...  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 14:17
No No ! I like the feeling I get from doing the least possible.  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 14:23
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Did you ever wonder that even if the were no humans on Earth, there would still be environmentally damaging occurrences - forest fires, causing pollution ; volcanoes, causing global warming or cooling with the spewed dust, animals farting , sending methane into the atmosphere; beavers building dams & thus changing their natural environment (is it OK when a beaver causes flooding ? ), carnivores , eating all the meat they can, with the possibility of some of their prey becoming extinct; omnivores & herbivores overgrazing ; the occasional one in a million year comet collision causing planet wide devastation; the sun imploding, either blowing away the planet or causing its' death by the dying of its' light. We simply are accelerating things. And getting money in return, too ...  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 20:52
Eating food out of season is a luxury that was unheard of 20 years ago and is now something that we take for granted. Tins and deep-freezes were invented because food production is seasonal - now we swap those for aircraft and juggernauts to ensure that you can eat strawberries and bananas all year round. So, no, my local farmer does not use a horse and buggy to transport his goods - he uses a Boeing 747 to send his produce 5,000 miles away. The irony is that food is proportionally more expensive now than it was 20 years ago because we are eating more 'luxury' items than we ever use to. If everyone reverted back to the diet that their parents and grandparents grew up on it would actually be cheaper (and more boring obviously, especially if you are a vegetarian).
------------- What? |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: July 10 2007 at 03:36
Perfectly good point - Mount St Helens caused more damage to the environment in a week than mankind has done since the beginning of the industrial revolution; add that to the eruptions of Mt Pinatubo, Krakatoa & our meager contributions to the destruction of our habitat seem paltry by comparison. Doesn't mean to say we shouldn't at least try to limit the damage we're doing, though, does it? Thank heavens we have environmental expertise of the calibre of Bono available, eh? Now if he were to get together with another of our great thinkers, his majesty Prince Charles (never one to say anything unless he's really thought it through...), imagine the changes we could make! I have to say I'm so glad that the raising of environmental awareness is in the hands of those who would never use it for their own ends, or to sell albums on the back of a few naive statements from a stage so crammed with amplification & lighting equipment that it's carbon footprint dwarfs that of a small country. Makes you sleep well at night, doesn't it? -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: July 10 2007 at 04:57
I find nothing wrong with the idea of personal transportation vehicles (or public transportation and freight transportation for that matter), I only think that it could be re-done in a better way and only good ol' hypocrisy stops us - what's so wrong with vehicles on methane gas or electricity? Oh, the engine doesn't "roar" and the car doesn't start off like a racer... well f**k me, that's really important... ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 10 2007 at 07:17
Unfortunately, although Methane is a sustainable fuel - it only emits 25% less greenhouse gasses than petrol.
The electric car is the way forward, the Tesla Roadster can do 0-60mph in 4 seconds and has a loudspeaker to make the "roar" sound.
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: July 10 2007 at 07:35
And you have to be how sad exactly for the "roar" sound to matter? -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: July 10 2007 at 08:22
From the original least I like step 10 the least, the rest is OK to me with some reservations.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 10 2007 at 08:40
 as sad as me  especially if the "roar" sound sounded like a real lion - or of a phantom jet, or the millennium falcon or the the phased whooshy noise from Silver Machine... (yeah, I'm a kid at heart) Though silent-running "stealth" mode has it's attractions too ------------- What? |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: July 12 2007 at 12:36
My grandparents were farmers, but I have a different job, plus the farms have long been sold. My parents' diet is just about the same as mine. Of course, the stories of getting an orange for Xmas is still told, but that is more as to what was the norm back then, not the actual price or cost. Oh, by the way, my mom keeps telling me that when she was young, lobster was used more often as fertilizer due to the fact that they practically washed up on shore. So for them, it wasn't a "luxury" as it became later on. It's a good idea to buy what you can (at a reasonable price, of course) locally & regionally, but I'm not about to give up citrus fruit just because it comes from Florida. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: July 12 2007 at 13:29
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Those are some good ideas, but Madonna gave the best: "If you want to save the planet, I want to see you jump up and down."
If only it was that simple. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 16 2007 at 13:09
of course if we all did that we would knock the Earth out of it's orbit - or is it just one Hemisphere that has to do that? ------------- What? |