Simple - I don't like their music. 

One of the biggest problems I have is this "Virtuosic keyboards" thing - Keith may play as if he's a virtuoso, but I've heard real virtuosi - and Keith is not one. He's about Grade 6-7 - and I state that as someone who has done all the keyboard grade exams and the teaching diploma, then studied music with piano as my main instrument, but also played church and concert hall organs - so I'm familiar with technique.

It's kinda like the whole Satriani/Malmsteen thing - yes, they play fast and loud, but it's pure technique.

The biggest difference between Emerson and the latter is that Emerson at least puts passion into his playing, and is full of original thought and approaches to composition.

The second biggest difference is in the precision in execution. I wish Emerson would take off the boxing gloves every now and then!

Emerson improvises, but it's not good improvisation, and he tends to re-use material far more often than not (and I suspect that much of this is not conscious), bringing a predictable, cloying feel to just about everything, as well as a very amateurish style - which is a pity. With real hard work on the dots instead of the flash, he could have written more great stuff - because there are great moments in between the layers of murk coming out of those boxing gloves.

Keith is NOT the virtuoso that ELP fans would have us believe - it's nearly ALL mouth and no trousers. And I'm not inviting comments from TF here, really I'm not...  That intro on the Royal Festival Hall organ is just despicable - total bluster and no structure, all party-piece and no real music. It's as bad as rap, from that point of view.

When Greg and Carl get it together in a bass/drum groove, there is something seriously good going on - but invariably it ends up in a messy heap with Emerson on top.

I find it hard to ciriticise Palmer, not because I'm not a drummer, but because I feel some pity that he has to work with such a cacophony, and admiration that he still manages to pull off some great grooves and licks despite it!

Finally (for now...), Greg's singing.

Oh dear.

The voice is not my cuppa tea because it's just too "precious". He can put a good edge to it - "ITCOTCK" and other places, but generally, Yuck!

And he sings flat - particularly in that gruesome rendition of "Jerusalem", which ELP fans seem to love - but I hate with a very similar passion. I much prefer the version by Mark Stewart and the Maffia (try tracking that one down ).

Just my opinion

Oh No! Not you too RichardH.....

I don't think anybody dislikes ELP on this site (I certainly don't) and much less HATES them on this site. It is just that some people are so violently pro-ELP (I am not aiming at you , see my top comment) and can speak also of nothing else than them, that other people get annoyed at this championning of them that they get grumpy and first avoid the subject and than get tired from it and then finally fed up. Then they come out of their reserves and start the debate the ELP integrists want them to have and things do slip onto dangerous ground because the integrists do not accept the opinions  from those joining up.

So I will avoid this thread (and other related ELP Thread) from now on , as to not get into trouble/arguing with you or anybody else.

I wish this ELP thing would become extinct

Peace

Hugues

Jim Garten wrote: OOooooooooh - I can hear 3F taking a very deep breath, indeed! Incoming............!

Sigh . ..... Inévitable et immanquablement , mon cher ami!!

She should wake up soon , than check up the forum , click on this thread first, get angry and on we go!! And then she'll probably have a bad day! Wish this thread was not started.

Jim, let's stay out of this sandbox to avoid lost bullets.

I doubt 3f8s will be able to answer the question that this thread poses

And I'm not expecting to read anything defending ELP in this thread either - there are DOZENS of threads that praise ELP to the skies which I'm sure everyone must have encountered... you an hardly miss them

I think this thread redresses the balance nicely.

ELP are the "Big Mac and Fries" of the Prog World.

And we all know who Ronald Macdonald is

Sorry Richard

Have to go to work.Working until 8 o'clock this evening.Perhaps this will allow me to speak to William Gilmour ex Enid and Dusk and Robert McGregor both superb pianists/keyboards players in their own right and both classically qualified via the Glasgow Academy of Music about this highly technical point from Certified; for once, you have my interest with your comments.

I dont hate ELP, I can take or leave them.

I've only recently started to listen to them again, after giving up on them years ago. I'm playing Tarkus to death at the moment, its a very good prog rock album.

My problem with ELP is their potential vs their actual output. Certif1ed makes the point that Keith Emerson is not the virtuoso that ELP fanatics make out. Maybe so, but he clearly does have the skill to write and perform good music if he wants. He seems to choose bombastic classical rip offs over good original progressive material. I have a problem with rock bands re-arranging classical music. In reality it is never going to sound as good as an orchestral arrangement. Its always going to sound like a rock band trying to show off and prove that they can play classical music for the sake of it. The first ELP I ever heard was 'Pictures at an exhibition' I thought it just sounded weak and silly. I couldn't work out why they had gone to the bother. Why didn't they just...well..do something else? Something of their own? I remember playing it my friends father, an ex concert pianist, and he just shrugged and said 'God, thats crap. Why did they bother? Are they just showing off?'

Lets face it what would you rather listen too? Holsts 'Mars the bringer of war' performed by full orchestra, or performed by Emerson, Lake and Cozy Powell??? With tea chest tribal drumming, snyths and Hammond organs..? I rest my case..

My opinions are based on what I have heard by ELP which I admit is not everything they've done.

Pixel Pirate wrote: I love snyths!

Me too

But not playing Holst. Thats just taking the p!ss. Whats the point in recording an arrangement like that? You could record a version of Stairway to Heaven on Penny Whistle if you liked, but there wouldn't be any point, because it will always be an inferior way to present the song, under any circumstances.

Fragile wrote: Have to go to work.Working until 8 o'clock this evening.Perhaps this will allow me to speak to William Gilmour ex Enid and Dusk and Robert McGregor both superb pianists/keyboards players in their own right and both classically qualified via the Glasgow Academy of Music about this highly technical point from Certified; for once, you have my interest with your comments.

I guess the Glasgow Academy outranks Nene College/University, but one man's opinion is still one man's opinion.

I'm glad to have your interest for once

Blacksword wrote: Pixel Pirate wrote: I love snyths! Me too But not playing Holst. Thats just taking the p!ss. Whats the point in recording an arrangement like that? You could record a version of Stairway to Heaven on Penny Whistle if you liked, but there wouldn't be any point, because it will always be an inferior way to present the song, under any circumstances.

William Orbit did an album 5 years ago called "Pieces In A Modern Style" where he gives the electronic treatment to classical (and neo-classical) pieces and I think he improved on the originals (well,most of them at least),so there are exceptions but in principle I completely agree. ELP ruined "Romeo And Juliet" (by Prokofiev isn't it?) on the "Black Moon" album,sucking all the beauty and emotion of the piece out of it so resoundingly as if they did it on purpose. The "rock" treatment to classical pieces can only end in a terrible shambles.

I loved hearing Cozy Powell doing his drum solo to the 1812 Overture, when I was 13, but when I last heard it it sounded like something Spinal Tap may have rejected for being ridiculous.

Infact, when I think of Keith Emerson I'm reminded of another rock musician with classical ambitions/delusions..

'I'm a big fan of Mozart and Bach, and this piece is somewhere in the middle, a kind of Mach piece'

'This is called 'Lick my love pump''

I like ELP a lot ... so much so that I couldn't really argue with their "Ultra" fans who seemed to believe the band could do no wrong ... because I don't feel like tearing into the band ...

Re: Certified's comments ... I agree that Emerson doesn't (nor at least 90% of the proggers I listen to) match up to the standards of the very best classical musicians but I still find prog-rock far more exciting than most straight classical, simply because it is a fusion of elements ... most keyboardists especially (anyone from Lord to Manzarek to Mercury to Banks) have some sort of classical background and adapt that to create brilliant creative rock music ... which to me makes them far more creative than somebody who can stunningly replicate Rachmaninoff (correct spelling?) or Liszt.

I will admit though Blacksword that I personally prefer to hear ol' Keith work on original compositions rather than attempt to re-arrange the classics (as he did in both the Nice and ELP) ... although that Tocatta thing on BSS was nice, as were parts of Pictures ...

Finally, I think Greg Lake has one of the nicest voices in all of prog. It may not be technically flawless, but is full of character ... gives albums like ITCOTCK and ELP a unique flavour ...

sigod wrote: Blacksword wrote: Pixel Pirate wrote: I love snyths! Me too But not playing Holst. Thats just taking the p!ss. Whats the point in recording an arrangement like that? You could record a version of Stairway to Heaven on Penny Whistle if you liked, but there wouldn't be any point, because it will always be an inferior way to present the song, under any circumstances. Pixel has spoken. I'd like to hear Stairway to Heaven, played on the penny whistle Blacksword. Better Still; Moby Dick.

Moby Dick, Penny Whistle style would be a challenge at least. It may sound crap, but if Keith Emerson can pull that one off I'll eat my hat!

Pixel Pirate wrote: I love snyths!

The band with Norrysey in???

Blacksword wrote: I loved hearing Cozy Powell doing his drum solo to the 1812 Overture, when I was 13, but when I last heard it it sounded like something Spinal Tap may have rejected for being ridiculous.

But the late CP did have the good grace to call that album Over The Top, so you knew what you were getting..............................

Jim Garten wrote: It does seem strange that ELP seem to polarise opinion within the prog-rock fraternity in the same way as prog-rock itself polarises opinion within the music fraternity.  .

They do seem to do that, and I think I understand why that may be. While their music can be dismissed as pompous and over the top, it also far more accessable to the ear of non proggers than, say early Genesis or Yes. Think about it, big classical themes that everyone recognises, lots of blaring fanfares. 'Ordinary' people who dont come from prog land are suckers for that kinda thing. Although more 'pompous' and over the top than other prog bands, the listerner is not required to think so much about what is going on with ELP. ELP are arguably entertainers first, and musicians second. I'm sure their fans would disagree, but I know ELP regard the 'entertainment' side of what they do as very important - the knife throwing, the Hammond organ wrestling, the spinning grand piano, and of course not forgetting Greg Lakes show stopping Persian rug

Appreciating most prog rock requires patience, and an attention span. ELP dont make such demands on the listener IMO.

Blacksword wrote: Appreciating most prog rock requires patience, and an attention span. ELP dont make such demands on the listener IMO.

Can see where you're coming from on the ballads and short stuff like Jerusalem ... but surely these fans have to pass the Tarkus and KarnEval tests? No easy listening there ...

Jim Garten wrote:

I can happily admit to being 100% in love with some of their recorded output - there is no doubt (in my mind, at least) that ELP produced some of the most spectacular moments of prog - take as an example, the live version of 'Tarkus' from 'Welcome back my friends....' - from Emerson's inspired beginning to the spectacular conclusion, pure class!

Hi Jim

Listerning to 'Welcome back my friends' & judging ELP as a live band through that is no good,I've never yet listerned to a band live on album which actually creates the true band live,these are manufactured albums for general salebeing what the record company whans the fan base to hear,You must must see the band live to realise what a fantastic trio they actually are...Even there Studo albums don't do the band justice...But it's all to late now boys...'BSS' was over 30 years ago..

It goes like this..You cannot actually say the band or good or bad if you did'nt actually see them play.

Trotsky wrote: Blacksword wrote: Appreciating most prog rock requires patience, and an attention span. ELP dont make such demands on the listener IMO.   Can see where you're coming from on the ballads and short stuff like Jerusalem ... but surely these fans have to pass the Tarkus and KarnEval tests? No easy listening there ...

Compared to 'Topographic oceans..' or the like, any ELP album is as easy listerning as Glen Campbel IMO.

I should make it clear I'd rather listen to ELP than Glen Campbel....

ELP definately have their moments - But are they any more accesible to the average "popophile" than Old Genesis/Yes , can't see it myself.

The problem with ELP is they haven't produced a piece of music that is magic from beginning to end (that I've heard) - Tis the same with Floyd they always have a weird/weak bit in their epics that detract from the whole, Suppers ready/Tales x4/Gates/Close are truly fine pieces of music from beginning to end (IMO)....................

Karnevil9 wrote: Jim Garten wrote: I can happily admit to being 100% in love with some of their recorded output - there is no doubt (in my mind, at least) that ELP produced some of the most spectacular moments of prog - take as an example, the live version of 'Tarkus' from 'Welcome back my friends....' - from Emerson's inspired beginning to the spectacular conclusion, pure class!   Hi Jim Listerning to 'Welcome back my friends' & judging ELP as a live band through that is no good,I've never yet listerned to a band live on album which actually creates the true band live,these are manufactured albums for general salebeing what the record company whans the fan base to hear,You must must see the band live to realise what a fantastic trio they actually are...Even there Studo albums don't do the band justice...But it's all to late now boys...'BSS' was over 30 years ago.. It goes like this..You cannot actually say the band or good or bad if you did'nt actually see them play.

How does any of this answer the question "why don't people like ELP?"

Why is the Pallas Atlantic suite Cringeworthy ?

Ok the "All the world hold hands with me" bit is a bit pacifist and Girlie and should have been replaced with a bit of political psycho-babble like Twelfth Night - But the chord-build up and guitar solo are quite spectacular - are they not ???

Swinton MCR wrote: Why is the Pallas Atlantic suite Cringeworthy ? Ok the "All the world hold hands with me" bit is a bit pacifist and Girlie and should have been replaced with a bit of political psycho-babble like Twelfth Night - But the chord-build up and guitar solo are quite spectacular - are they not ???

There's nothing wrong the pacifist element in principle, but the cheesy ending ruins a potentially good song. The build up and chords as you rightly say are very dramatic, but all it amounts to is a second rate gospel tea party IMO

Never been to a Gospel Tea Party so I'll take your word for it !

We didn't have the Gospel at my school - we were too poor !

Just to let you know Richard, I am one who likes ELP and put them in my top 5 of all time list. The first album, Tarkus, Pictures at an Exhibition, Trilogy, and Brain Salad Surgery were the soundtracks to my teenage years. I played those albums endlessly and loved them.

Blacksword wrote: Swinton MCR wrote: Why is the Pallas Atlantic suite Cringeworthy ? Ok the "All the world hold hands with me" bit is a bit pacifist and Girlie and should have been replaced with a bit of political psycho-babble like Twelfth Night - But the chord-build up and guitar solo are quite spectacular - are they not ??? There's nothing wrong the pacifist element in principle, but the cheesy ending ruins a potentially good song. The build up and chords as you rightly say are very dramatic, but all it amounts to is a second rate gospel tea party IMO

AH! MEN ! PALLAS rules! ronnie's keys are absolutely delightful!

"the sea boiled again as atlamtis descends, to its place far below...."

richard, regarding ELP, they are very good, I don't have any problem with them. however, they never produced masterpiece from A to Z. BSS has some weaker parts, like benny the bouncer.

richard, i live the same problem as yours: actually, I don't understand why your WORST prog band is TRIUMVIRAT! you should be glad that ELP has a little cousin!

Interesting comments by all.Thankfully the thread has stayed on track so far and hopefully will continue to do so.

Swinton MCR wrote: Never been to a Gospel Tea Party so I'll take your word for it ! We didn't have the Gospel at my school - we were too poor !

Yeah, believe me, they're frightful affairs, and Pallas play at every one of them. The only gigs they can get these days..

I'm another one that doesn't hate ELP, I even consider among my top 10 favorite bands for their work until BSS, I saw them two times on stage and really enjoyed their concerts.

But (There's always a but) I never read so much propaganda for a band as in this forum, I hate to read lists where each and every option is an ELP musician, album or song, that's one of the main reasons I left the Genesis forum, because I'm a fan but not deaf, not all the songs or albums from one band are perfect, not all their musicians are genius, and this is what I read from some ELP fans.

Iván

How about Chris Deburgh?

 Or Europe, in more ways than one:  might be called a sort of gone west Asia?

Dick Heath wrote: How about Chris Deburgh?    Or Europe, in more ways than one:  might be called a sort of gone west Asia?

Hey Dick, Snyths!

I noticed!!!

We should have a worst joke of the week award!

Mind you,receiving any award is not to be smithed at!

Although i think (very) highly of their early work, its as my mate Reg is fond of saying:

"You listen to Works by ELP and you begin to understand why Punk happened!"

What tickles me the most is how their fanatical followers are blinded by their own passion - t'other week one of them was seriously suggesting that Lake was on a technical par (or even above) Steve Howe for acoustic guitar ability. Lake may be pretty nifty on the acoustic - but even things like "The Sage" (which was offered as evidence in said dispute) doesn't even approach - in pure technical terms - any of Howe's acoustic work.

I like ELP a lot.  I just hate the endless threads/polls/banality that frequents this place sometimes and the atitude you get if you say anything negative about them.

Jim, Ivan and Garion's posts sum up my own thoughts well.

I love a lot of ELP's work, and certianly do not "hate" them. While some on the forum will inevitibly not enjoy any of their msuic, I think most prog fans will find something in their output to enjoy. The trouble is, the have also put out some very poor material. They are not alone in this, most of our favourites have let us down at some stage.

It seems though that the ELP devotees on this site not only refuse to acknowledge this, but have difficulties when others express such opinions. No other band on this site appears to be subject to the same level of obsession. To me, this tends to stifle healthy debate relating to ELP, and causes people to sl*g them off more than they would otherwise do.

I don't hate 'em and I don't like 'em. They leave me cold. I DO have their first 5 albums (so don't accuse me of not knowing their stuff). Their music just doesn't move me like Gentle Giant or King Crimson does.

All those ELP-related discussions on this board lately piss me off a bit. Just because most of 'em turn into fights. This one didn't so far. And this is the only statement I will make in relation to ELP. For now I'll leave them and their fans in peace.

Jim Garten wrote:

I can happily admit to being 100% in love with some of their recorded output - there is no doubt (in my mind, at least) that ELP produced some of the most spectacular moments of prog - take as an example, the live version of 'Tarkus' from 'Welcome back my friends....' - from Emerson's inspired beginning to the spectacular conclusion, pure class!

Karnevil9 wrote:

Hi Jim

Listerning to 'Welcome back my friends' & judging ELP as a live band through that is no good,I've never yet listerned to a band live on album which actually creates the true band live,these are manufactured albums for general salebeing what the record company whans the fan base to hear,You must must see the band live to realise what a fantastic trio they actually are...Even there Studo albums don't do the band justice...But it's all to late now boys...'BSS' was over 30 years ago..

It goes like this..You cannot actually say the band or good or bad if you did'nt actually see them play.

[/QUOTE]

How does any of this answer the question "why don't people like ELP?"

Look i'm following onto to the section quoted by myself above ok!

F**k the original question man were making progress arn't we?

I dismiss the presmise that you need to see a band live before you judge...we're talking about making music, not performing. I love seeing Gwar, but I don't own any of their albums. This is an album review site, after all, and I'm pretty sure that the majority of the reviews are written by folks who have never seen nor have any chance of ever seeing these bands. At least half of them are bands that no longer exist, and many of the ones that still do are no longer touring!

But as to the topic, I'm with the folks who don't hate ELP...but I go for long periods without wanting to listen to them, so you can't call me a fan either.

Only on a prog site would the main focus be Keith's technical skill.  Honestly, I don't know how talented he really is at the keys...it's the songs as a whole that make the difference to me. And ELP has a lot of material that simply does nothing for me (and some stuff, like "Are you ready Eddy", that really irritates me). And I'm generally not much of a fan of keyboard-heavy music anyway...but occasionally the elements do come together to make a song I like. Strangely enough, it's usually the songs that prog folks (and even ELP fans) tend to dismiss...Lucky Man, From the Beginning, etc.

I don't hate ELP, I just don't like their music, their good parts are overclouded with excessive meaningless pondering, why play an entire fast excesive solo, when one note would suffice?

(that emmidiatly is the response to the Question raised one or two days ago, about Richard Wright from Pink Floyd, he only plays the one meaningfull note, instead of indulging himself in excessive soloing on every song)

Certif1ed wrote: One of the biggest problems I have is this "Virtuosic keyboards" thing - Keith may play as if he's a virtuoso, but I've heard real virtuosi - and Keith is not one. He's about Grade 6-7 - and I state that as someone who has done all the keyboard grade exams and the teaching diploma, then studied music with piano as my main instrument, but also played church and concert hall organs - so I'm familiar with technique. ...

Wow... that was actually quite an enlightening post, Certif1ed. It had never occured to me that Keith wasn't amongst the best pianists ever and his improvisations weren't all that good. For some reason he was always automatically a piano god to me because a) He was better than me and b) He played in a band where piano/keyboard was so central. Hmmm... I guess he's not so untouchable after all :)

Welcome Happy the Man to a great prog site.Rob the Plant your a big Zeppelin fan and have the gaul to allude to the great Jon Anderson's singing to a dying pig!!! The anvils and stirrups in your head must be smashed to a pulp listening to one of the over rated bands of our time 

Certif1ed wrote: Fragile wrote: Have to go to work.Working until 8 o'clock this evening.Perhaps this will allow me to speak to William Gilmour ex Enid and Dusk and Robert McGregor both superb pianists/keyboards players in their own right and both classically qualified via the Glasgow Academy of Music about this highly technical point from Certified; for once, you have my interest with your comments. I guess the Glasgow Academy outranks Nene College/University, but one man's opinion is still one man's opinion. I'm glad to have your interest for once

I still regard their eponymous 1st album as a great prog album.The 2nd and 3rd were both very very good.

Rob The Plant wrote: It seems like somehow it arose that ELP was being pushed, or bashed too much, thus resulting in reataliation, and many ELP discussions arose. Some people are foolish enough to dislike a band, because too many people are talkign about them, or something silly like that. Although I would agree that too much talk of your favored band is annoying, I wouldn't go so far as to change my opinion according to it. I like ELP and if their fans start to annoy me, then I will still like ELP. I certainly wouldn't blame 3fates though, she promotes ELP whenever she can naturally, but that's understandable

Yeah. I think I missed all of that when I didn't come to the board these past many months. I wouldn't let anyone make me dislike one of my favourite bands.

There seems to be a theme in the thread about ELP fans on this site overwelming everyone with 'ELP propaganda'.I guess that's me, 3Fates and Karny then? Are three mad passionate fans that difficult to handle??

For the record I only regard one ELP album as a masterpeice and thats 'Brain Salad Surgery'.The rest have some great material but are far from perfect.I also hate the Emerson Lake and Powell album with a vengeance.

The fact is that I have grown up with them and their music.I love the bombast and the 'vulgarity' of the music.It's all upfront.I love music with ideas and different sounds which ELP's early stuff seems to have.However I admit that ELP never recorded a piece as great as Close To The Edge or Suppers Ready.However nowadays I listen to IQ and Magenta more than I listen to ELP (or Yes or Genesis for that matter).Modern prog had more melody,economy and control.There's nowt better than IQ's 'Further Away' in my book

I don't really like them because i dislike the sound. It seems so immature to me, so silly. And i don't know why Greg decided to change his style after ITCOTCK. I think his vocal performance on this one is one of the best i've heard so far, his voice really fits the slow, epic-like lyrics. Also I think that there's something missing if almost all of the sound is created by a keyboard. So there is a lack of beauty and good sound in their music IMO. I sometimes listen to them, but ranking them among the top5 prog bands is something i really cant understand.

ALL IMO.

kniprekcor wrote: i just hate this band and i don't know why

Hey dude,do you like The Bangles?

http://www.magiceye.com/images/product/nov_hid.jpg">

Reed Lover wrote: kniprekcor wrote: i just hate this band and i don't know why    Hey dude,do you like The Bangles? http://www.magiceye.com/images/product/nov_hid.jpg">

Thanks reed. You've given me a headache trying to find the Taj Mahal

kniprekcori

 just hate this band and i don't know why   

Too much sand in you ears..

Vegetableman wrote:

I like ELP... I wouldn't say I love them. The biggest turnoff is the utterly terrible lyrics. Someone get me a ladder??? Blow your head apart??  Not to mention the tendencies to release songs such as Bennie the Bouncer and Are You Ready, Eddy?

Hows about Floyd track with a dog howling.

come on.look in the mirror

Rob The Plant wrote: Fragile wrote: Welcome Happy the Man to a great prog site.Rob the Plant your a big Zeppelin fan and have the gaul to allude to the great Jon Anderson's singing to a dying pig!!! The anvils and stirrups in your head must be smashed to a pulp listening to one of the over rated bands of our time  Oh burn on Robert Plant! I think I'm going to leave the forums now because you don't share my opinion!

Ive always been curious about the fact you hate jon anderson and love robert plant... I mean they both have an almost annoying pitch, but robert plants voice is a little less high, and Jon has the superior technical capabilites.

Karnevil9 wrote: Vegetableman wrote: I like ELP... I wouldn't say I love them. The biggest turnoff is the utterly terrible lyrics. Someone get me a ladder??? Blow your head apart??  Not to mention the tendencies to release songs such as Bennie the Bouncer and Are You Ready, Eddy?   Hows about Floyd track with a dog howling. come on.look in the mirror

The dog sings better lyrics than Lake

Vegetableman wrote: The dog sings better lyrics than Lake

wuff wuff OOOOooooooouuuuuWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!

translate that.

happythe wrote: Certif1ed wrote: One of the biggest problems I have is this "Virtuosic keyboards" thing - Keith may play as if he's a virtuoso, but I've heard real virtuosi - and Keith is not one. He's about Grade 6-7 - and I state that as someone who has done all the keyboard grade exams and the teaching diploma, then studied music with piano as my main instrument, but also played church and concert hall organs - so I'm familiar with technique. ...   Wow... that was actually quite an enlightening post, Certif1ed. It had never occured to me that Keith wasn't amongst the best pianists ever and his improvisations weren't all that good. For some reason he was always automatically a piano god to me because a) He was better than me and b) He played in a band where piano/keyboard was so central. Hmmm... I guess he's not so untouchable after all :)

You're obviously not a die-hard ELP fan then...

karnevil9 wrote: How does any of this answer the question "why don't people like ELP?" Look i'm following onto to the section quoted by myself above ok! F**k the original question man were making progress arn't we?

Oooh!

Temper, temper!

You obviously ARE a die-hard ELP fan then...

Fragile wrote: Couldn't get a hold of any of them Certified so this will have to wait.But as the man with the wooden leg said.'That's a matter of opinion'

Awww...

Bring on the big guns... Lemme attem!

kniprekcor wrote:

i just hate this band and i don't know why    

Did'nt know you had sound machines out there.lol

Matt0001 wrote: like Kevin Smith movies

I like Kevin Smith Movies

Utterly Priceless.

I was here loving ELP for a very long time before all this hoopla started.  The reason for the many ELP threads.. or all the ELP bashing and ELP praising came because someone likes to pick on me... and somebody new didn't realize the process and decided to defend ELP and me.  This started a verbal war... and a bunch of over the top messages by a lot of you who decided to join in... because as many of you have said... you just had fun joining in the bashing... but then that led to more praising...

SO otherwise... all of you as usual, created your own hell....

I could care less whether you love or hate ELP.  ELP have proven themselves in history, they have their larels, they support themselves very well... and they will retire as heroes to many, if not any of you.  They don't need your approval, they don't need to "not let you down"...it doesn't matter if you're into keyboards or guitars, or whether you like Greg's voice or Jon Anderson's voice... its all your opinion anyway.. and everyone else will have some agreements or disagreements... its just nature.

And since you all seem to want to know...Do I think ELP are perfect... well maybe sometimes I do... but logically I know they aren't.  I understand their technique more than most of you obviously, I do think that Keith is a keyboard genius, whether or not Cert thinks he's grade whatever, its his compostion that has always appealed to me.  I listen to the piano on Trilogy or Take a Pebble and it literally makes me melt... no classical music does that for me.  Its my opinion... and its my feelings..

Is there stuff by them I don't like... well I didn't like any of the ragtime piano stuff in the beginning, altho I have since become very fond of Jeremy Bender and Benny... still not too big on the Sheriff or Are You Ready, Eddy...  I don't like the Gambler or Love Beach from Love Beach and I'm not to thrilled with Hallowed it be thy Name. Only like BSS, Watching Over You and Father Christmas from Works 2, maybe Tiger in a Spotlight a little... Unlike Richard, I do like all of ELPowell, and I love Black Moon except maybe Paper Blood.. I even like some of In the Hot Seat, even tho that makes most ELP fans cringe...

But I love when people can talk about them bad or good without attacking each other... so thank you Richard for the civilized ELP thread... most appreciative!!

I don't care for ELP, but I agree with Threefates here, beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.

Some of us have made our beds, now we must lie in it, till a new band to bash will come around and delivers us from evil

threefates wrote: I was here loving ELP for a very long time before all this hoopla started.  The reason for the many ELP threads.. or all the ELP bashing and ELP praising came because someone likes to pick on me... and somebody new didn't realize the process and decided to defend ELP and me.

Do you genuinely believe I am "picking on you"?
Or am I giving you as much as I would anybody else, ie male,on this forum.I rattle your cage and you give as much back.You always come back and I reply,then you go off on one and the cycle continues.But I am NOT targetting you,as such.This is not some male/female thing and it is frustrating because how do I prove it is not.......?
I think it is unfair to suggest that I am picking on you,although if you genuinely believe it,then I will stop................

I await your honest reply...........

I was here loving ELP for a very long time before all this hoopla started.  The reason for the many ELP threads.. or all the ELP bashing and ELP praising came because someone likes to pick on me... and somebody new didn't realize the process and decided to defend ELP and me.  This started a verbal war... and a bunch of over the top messages by a lot of you who decided to join in... because as many of you have said... you just had fun joining in the bashing... but then that led to more praising...

SO otherwise... all of you as usual, created your own hell....

I could care less whether you love or hate ELP.  ELP have proven themselves in history, they have their larels, they support themselves very well... and they will retire as heroes to many, if not any of you.  They don't need your approval, they don't need to "not let you down"...it doesn't matter if you're into keyboards or guitars, or whether you like Greg's voice or Jon Anderson's voice... its all your opinion anyway.. and everyone else will have some agreements or disagreements... its just nature.

And since you all seem to want to know...Do I think ELP are perfect... well maybe sometimes I do... but logically I know they aren't.  I understand their technique more than most of you obviously, I do think that Keith is a keyboard genius, whether or not Cert thinks he's grade whatever, its his compostion that has always appealed to me.  I listen to the piano on Trilogy or Take a Pebble and it literally makes me melt... no classical music does that for me.  Its my opinion... and its my feelings..

Is there stuff by them I don't like... well I didn't like any of the ragtime piano stuff in the beginning, altho I have since become very fond of Jeremy Bender and Benny... still not too big on the Sheriff or Are You Ready, Eddy...  I don't like the Gambler or Love Beach from Love Beach and I'm not to thrilled with Hallowed it be thy Name. Only like BSS, Watching Over You and Father Christmas from Works 2, maybe Tiger in a Spotlight a little... Unlike Richard, I do like all of ELPowell, and I love Black Moon except maybe Paper Blood.. I even like some of In the Hot Seat, even tho that makes most ELP fans cringe...

But I love when people can talk about them bad or good without attacking each other... so thank you Richard for the civilized ELP thread... most appreciative!!

Good on you Linda Nice to see you proven to people your not fond of certain parts of ELP but don't dislike them completely..I was a bit worried that you might have slammed me in an earlier threat when i said i did'nt like aspects of later ELP & the members as solo artists.You see were not obsessives or we would think absolutly everything ELP related was perfect.

Reed stop picking on Linda you naughty boy

Scarey to be called "boy" by a 37 yr old basket weaver.

Reed Lover wrote: threefates wrote: I was here loving ELP for a very long time before all this hoopla started.  The reason for the many ELP threads.. or all the ELP bashing and ELP praising came because someone likes to pick on me... and somebody new didn't realize the process and decided to defend ELP and me.  Do you genuinely believe I am "picking on you"? Or am I giving you as much as I would anybody else, ie male,on this forum.I rattle your cage and you give as much back.You always come back and I reply,then you go off on one and the cycle continues.But I am NOT targetting you,as such.This is not some male/female thing and it is frustrating because how do I prove it is not.......? I think it is unfair to suggest that I am picking on you,although if you genuinely believe it,then I will stop................ I await your honest reply...........

I geniunely think that you pick on me... and according to the pms I get... I'm not the only one.  Sometimes I enjoy it and I play back with you... sometimes you are downright cruel... and no, you do not do that to others male or female on this site.  Then sometimes you can be geniunely nice to me.  You are truly an enigma...  Thats really how I feel.

threefates wrote: We could always go back to bashing Radiohead, because Radiohead fans have such a better since of humor....

Many a truth spoken in jest...

threefates wrote: Reed Lover wrote: threefates wrote: I was here loving ELP for a very long time before all this hoopla started.  The reason for the many ELP threads.. or all the ELP bashing and ELP praising came because someone likes to pick on me... and somebody new didn't realize the process and decided to defend ELP and me.  Do you genuinely believe I am "picking on you"? Or am I giving you as much as I would anybody else, ie male,on this forum.I rattle your cage and you give as much back.You always come back and I reply,then you go off on one and the cycle continues.But I am NOT targetting you,as such.This is not some male/female thing and it is frustrating because how do I prove it is not.......? I think it is unfair to suggest that I am picking on you,although if you genuinely believe it,then I will stop................ I await your honest reply........... I geniunely think that you pick on me... and according to the pms I get... I'm not the only one.  Sometimes I enjoy it and I play back with you... sometimes you are downright cruel... and no, you do not do that to others male or female on this site.  Then sometimes you can be geniunely nice to me.  You are truly an enigma...  Thats really how I feel.

Ok,so that basically means I have over done it.I have been very cruel,but so have you,especially as I am not the only one in my household or my extended family who uses/reads the forum.My current baiting is caused by your lack of condemnation of "you-know-who" and the lady who came on and basically said some untruths about the other female forum members.I can be nasty and manipulative in spades especially if I feel slighted and your ingratious reaction to an apology of mine,sparked off a vicious streak that normally abates in hours but has lasted 3 months.I guess it is time to ease off.
I have deliberately "bumped" these ELP threads to bring the Karnevil situation to a head one way or another,as I did with the Wallace "character".Whilst it is not my place to do this,nor the correct "modus operandum" I feel that someone has to. Of all the people to do this it would seem strange that it be me,given that over the last six months quite a few members would gladly have seen the back of me and some still would, nevertheless,that's the way it is.

Pixel pirate will never be able to Read that Reedy!!

gdub411 wrote: Pixel pirate will never be able to Read that Reedy!!

Many a truth spoken in jest..... 

Tuxon,I dont wear a vest.

Reed Lover wrote: Tuxon,I dont wear a vest.

Well at least wear a tie, we don't want you to catch a cold

Reed Lover wrote: Ok,so that basically means I have over done it.I have been very cruel,but so have you,especially as I am not the only one in my household or my extended family who uses/reads the forum.My current baiting is caused by your lack of condemnation of "you-know-who" and the lady who came on and basically said some untruths about the other female forum members.I can be nasty and manipulative in spades especially if I feel slighted and your ingratious reaction to an apology of mine,sparked off a vicious streak that normally abates in hours but has lasted 3 months.I guess it is time to ease off. I have deliberately "bumped" these ELP threads to bring the Karnevil situation to a head one way or another,as I did with the Wallace "character".Whilst it is not my place to do this,nor the correct "modus operandum" I feel that someone has to. Of all the people to do this it would seem strange that it be me,given that over the last six months quite a few members would gladly have seen the back of me and some still would, nevertheless,that's the way it is.

So your current baiting is caused by my lack of condemnation of Karny??  Why would you think I would do that anyway... I've never condemned anyone on this site, not Wallace.. not even you, so why would I start with an avid ELP fan who tries to protect me??  

And what lady came on and said untruths about other female forum members.  The only one I remember is the Khatru person who said she'd noticed that many of the female posters don't post here very often anymore... that seems sort of true to me..  and I don't doubt that that has a lot to do with the constant bickering here...

And you felt slighted by my ingratious reaction to your apology... for saying what you did about me when I was trying to get people to do something for the Tsunami Relief effort, well you admitted you were drunk... and very cruel without at that time, any provocation... to tell you the truth, I didn't know how to respond to you, it was very disconcerting and made me think a little about your stability... so I tried to just ignore the whole situation and resume some normalcy here.  I actually thought about giving a goodbye letter here myself, but I promised myself I wouldn't react like all the whiny guys here...

Also instead of dealing with most of these issues by PMs, you preferred to do it all in the forum. Another reason why I wasn't sure how to react....

And if other than that, I have been cruel to you, I apologize, because that is not in my nature.  and I am not vindictive or spiteful.  So I hope you can accept this as a truce, and please stop trying to hurt me...

Otherwise you'll have to go back to picking on GDub about his sex life or Eddy about his spelling...

is there really that much 'constant bickering'? Enough to drive away anyone but the most fainthearted people, anyway? Even at the height of the ELP/ Radiohead controversies, the level of discussion here barely approached the typical internet forum depths.

The forum can get fairly bitchy at times, admittedly...but is that the main reason the womenfolk, among others (as threefates argues) are so scarce?

Seriously, I'm not being rhetorical. What does everyone else think?

Scarey to be called "boy" by a 37 yr old basket weaver.

37! don't believe everything you read.....

By the way it seems you a cancer the same as i.

threefates wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Karnevil situation to a head one way or another,as I did with the Wallace "character".Whilst it is not my place to do this,nor the correct "modus operandum" I feel that someone has to. Of all the people to do this it would seem strange that it be me,given that over the last six months quite a few members would gladly have seen the back of me and some still would, nevertheless,that's the way it is. .  So I hope you can accept this as a truce, and please stop trying to hurt me... Otherwise you'll have to go back to picking on GDub about his sex life or Eddy about his spelling...

Not trying to hurt anyone.....that's not even the point.I think you are being disingenuous there.

East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.......

threefates wrote: I've never condemned anyone on this site, not Wallace.. not even you, so why would I start with an avid ELP fan who tries to protect me??

On the pretext of "defending" you he has sworn at about 25% of the regular contributors on this forum! That is why we would like to see some condemnation!!!

Sooooo,there you have it.I'm the big bad wolf and you are the injured party.
Returning to the "Tsunami" incident-as I have said before I have problems with people who take offence for entire nations.I apologised unreservedly and unless you genuinely feel that I am glad it happened and that thousands were killed your reaction to my apology was f**king disgraceful!

So there we have it.All done in public then any private words cant be twisted or sent without appropriate editing.I may be all the things everyone thinks I am,but at least i am honest.Too f**king honest.

threefates has a tendency to defend the underdog- perhaps a mothering instinct, but an admirable characteristic whatever the motivation.

in this case, however, I think it's misplaced. KE9 is obviously not worth the concern, no matter who his favorite band is, and he should be allowed to fall (or stand, if that's even possible) without any such defenders. He's made no friends around here, but has alienated a few (and irritated many more) and contributed next to nothing. I'd even trade him for DallasBryan, in a second.