A major flaw in our judgment!!!
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39343
Printed Date: November 29 2024 at 21:51
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Topic: A major flaw in our judgment!!!
Posted By: Dim
Subject: A major flaw in our judgment!!!
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 22:54
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Wish you were here, does not deserve to be in the #2 spot!
In fact, I seriously does not belong in the top ten!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WYWH is a great album, but not a great prog album! A five song album, with only three prog songs, in the #2 spot of the top 100 prog albums of all time is ludicrus! I will not stand for this! Stop this foolishness! ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Jeff Schu
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:00
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Well I would certainly say that there are wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too many Genesis albums in the Top 10. That is much more of a problem for me then having Wish You Were Here at #2. I'm not sure how the rankings are worked out but I'm pretty sure it's based on overall review ratings rather then by commitee with criteria and such. ------------- 
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Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:01
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Finally... someone agrees with me in that WWYH is nowhere near as good as people think it is. It's not bad, but far from revolutionary, or memorable for that matter. I'm not upset because of the list, because I've realized that it's really no resource, but still, WWYH is one of the most overrated albums on this site, and I'm glad that I'm not alone in thinking this. -------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:10
No, everyone votes five stars because it's a good album, but Not a good PROG album! -------------
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Jeff Schu wrote:Posted By: puma
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:13
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I personally like Animals better, but you can't deny WYWH is a top-notch album also, who cares about the top ten, prog was never a popularity contest |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:19
couldn't have said it better |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:20
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^^ Thats not the point, the album is very non-prog and shouldnt even be a major factor of our little popularity contest, and what if some noob joins the archives and see's WYWH in the number two position, he might go out and get it and believe thats how good prog is gonna get. And it's barely prog in itself!!! -------------
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Posted By: puma
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:24
| What is prog and what is not is a matter of opinion. It's a well-constructed, quasi-conceptual album with innovative musicianship. Plus, how many "prog" songs does Pink Floyd even have? I don't even like using that word to describe music |
Posted By: tremulant
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:24
Why does that matter? ------------- My solo music: http://www.myspace.com/anthropiate - ANTHROPIATE |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:24
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Well....
- The album is on here...so just rate it as an album. - Theres been so many debates here on the definition of prog itself...so who can really question if its a prog album or not. - Theres a lot of genesis and yes non-prog songs on their top albums... - Its not a big deal. |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:25
^^ Because it's a top 100 PROG album rating thing. DUH!!! -------------
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Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:28
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I just think this album is a weak point in what would have been a golden age for Pink Floyd, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's not a prog album. I think it shouldn't be on there just because I don't like it very much and that point would be better suited for, say, Animals.
It's a prog album, and I'm not too fond of it, but many others are, so there's nothing you can do but accept that it's so highly rated...and call it vastly overrated.  ------------- <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:31
| but not more overrated in the real world than Dark Side.. |
Posted By: puma
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:32
Honestly I didn't even notice WYWH's position on the list until you brought it up  the moral of this story is: "newbies, don't get your taste in music from a list" it's a reflection of what people on the forum think, so I'm cool with it being up there. Better than a classic rock radio station posting a Prog Top 100 and telling us what to think. Moral of this story #2: "I don't care what radio station you work for, Toto isn't a prog band" |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:32
 it's there cause a lot of people like it.Me, I used to adore it (and Pink Floyd, but I've moved on to other tastes, mostly) but now I find it--and the SoYcD especially) too have too much of a cozy and cuddly feeling that does not suit Floyd at all. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:34
Too true  -------------
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:37
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I love WYWH. I still decide whether I like it as much or better than Animals, but I guess that doesn't really matter. As for it being prog, to paraphrase a famous quote "I don't know what Prog is, but I know what I like." Genesis still sucks though.
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Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:40
Dude, stop freaking out over that list. It's a nice addition to the site based on collective ratings. And it's good for n00bs. But other than that, don't take it so seriously! It's not like an official declaration on the "best" prog albums.  So stop complaining about the list.  But for the record, WYWH is an awesome album. I wouldn't put it an #2, but whatever. Talk about the four most haunting notes in music. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 24 2007 at 23:43
yup |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 01:00
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WYWH with Atom Heart Mother is my fav Floyd album
But there is a lot of dross in the top 100, only one zeuhl album and no Krautrock! the top hundred like someone said is not the best of the best nor is it truly representative, just a rough beginners guide and thats why the Snowgoose is there. ------------- |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 01:06
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I don't care much at all about the top 100, nor think it's a scam or not a result of "thousand of people" sharing their common (in various ways) pleasure for that album. As in: no one is directing the top 100 plot, no one is saying you should like the album within the 100 top, yet the other way around no one should say to all those many people and to all the, mostly, fair rates (that led apparently to such a high presence in the top) that they aren't supposed to like that (aka this thread's aggressive message and purpose). Just try to find your own prog music, to like it or dislike it. Strangely, I find Wish You Were Here around the most deserving albums to be in the top 10, top 3 or even the best, along Thick As A Brick and so... ------------- 
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 01:12
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Schizoid Man feels that Wish You Were Here is not prog enough, therefore our judgement is flawed. Lovely. Seriously, I stopped caring about the top ten after being on this site for about a week. No one really gives a crap whether Selling England By The Pound or Close to the Edge or anything else has the highest rating on the site. -------------   |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 01:14
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it all depends on what you mean by progressive, and god knows no one wants to get into that again. (I know I dont) ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Floydian42
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 01:16
| So I here there's this really good band out there, not too popular. They called themselves "Yeah" or wait... no, that wasn't it... Yes... Yes! It was "Yes"! You might have heard of them... and a few years back they released this little record called "Close to the edge" or something like that... yeah I'd suggest you give it a listen. I think it tops this "Wish you were here" or those "Genesis" albums you were talking about.... |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 03:22
But there are six notes in the "Aqualung" riff...? ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 03:35
maybe the other two notes aren't that haunting..  ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 03:44
Ah! Truly you are a man of great wisdom. I wonder if it's NEE NER NEE NER nee nee, or nee ner NEE NER NEE NEE. Or if they're a couple somewhere in the middle, so the riff loses it's hauntingness about halfway through, but regains it... ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 05:23
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Totally disagree.
WYWH is a classic album.
It is Prog Rock.
It does deserve its position. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 06:01
I'm not going to comment on the rest because I have better things to do, but where exactly did you read that? In my browser the PA homepage says "ProgArchives most popular titles (based on ratings)". That means prog or not prog. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 10:00
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The Top 100 is rubbish because it doesn't have my favourite prog band that you've never heard of at number 1. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 10:09
It always amazes me that people get so worked up over this to the point of making a thread about it.
Don't take it so seriously,it's just a list.I totally ignore them myself. -------------  |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 10:20
Well we have to get worked up about something! Without hysteria and outrage we are lost! -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 10:58
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Since the Top 100 is a popularity contest, not so much a measure of true Progressiveness, I don't hold much value in it.
While I really enjoy Pink Floyd, calling them Prog is a stretch. Deep Purple is more Prog than them IMHO, and they are Proto-Prog.
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Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 11:12
 Now I've heard it all! ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 11:23
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[QUOTE=StyLaZyn]Since the Top 100 is a popularity contest, not so much a measure of true Progressiveness, I don't hold much value in it.
While I really enjoy Pink Floyd, calling them Prog is a stretch. Deep Purple is more Prog than them IMHO, and they are Proto-Prog.[/QUOTE] What? If you're judgin Floyd by their first few albums, then sure, but by Meddle and Dark Side they had become fully prog.
Who cares what postion WYWH is? Sure, I'd much rather see Dark Side over it, and I'd like for there to be less Genesis in the top 20, but it's based on number of ratings. Sure, that might exclude more obscure bands, but deal with it. The point of the list is to provide n00bs with a good starting place to get acquainted with prog classics. It has no bearing on anyone's life. Why not make a thread where ppl can post and back up their lists of top albums, that is if you don't want to use any of the existing threads devoted to just that.
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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 11:25
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^ I'm gonna have to agree with stylazyn -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 11:33
Then I motion Deep Purple be moved into Prog. Deep Purple has played more odd time sigs than PF. From a musicianship point of view, Waters and Mason, while good at what they do, don't do much.
 Deep Purple has great musicians, and I have heard much more complicated material from them collectively, when compared to Floyd. Keep in mind, this is not a PF dis because I enjoy the music. I just see a serious disconnect. -------------
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Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 12:29
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I'm sorry. I seemed to have logged on to some spoof prog site on which up is down and black is white and Lewis Carroll is chief moderator.
Deep Purple? Prog? Never in a hundred million years!!!!!!!!
------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 12:42
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My brain is spinning in my head. I feel like I shouldn't post here because It's just continuing the madness... but I can't seem to help myself. My fingers are moving by themselves!!!!!!! The star ratings aren't a rating of how proggy an album is, but rather how 'good' it is overall (which is at least to an extent a matter of taste). So once an album is on the site, it's fair game for the top 100... it sounds like what you want is a list of the 'most proggy' albums, but that would be quite difficult considering how hard it is to quantify what 'proggy' is. Besides, it's not worth worrying about. If someone comes on here thinking to themselves, 'I'm going to get a list of good prog stuff so I can find out if I like it' they aren't only going to buy whatever's in the #2 spot (or #1 for that matter). They'll probably take a wider sampling of the stuff, and if they don't then they've been very silly. ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 12:57
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Floyd is a great place to start for anyone interested in prog. listen to all their albums and you'll see they're Prog with a capital P. Purple are Heavy Rock. No Purple fan at my old school back in the day ever saw themselves as being a member of the prog crowd. What's more, none of us proggers considered Purple to be "our thing", with the possible exception of "Child in Time", which we considered a nice try, but that's all. Keyboards do not a prog band make. ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 13:01
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 13:21
No one will deny they have strong heavy rock moments. But here a re two exceptions.
Listen to "Concerto for Group and Orchestra"
I also think "Abandon" and "Deep Purple" lends themselves to Prog.
Jon Lord also made attempts to fuse classical to rock on the keys.
If DP is Prog, then neither is Floyd. That's how I see it. -------------
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Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 13:31
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^^ Hmm. Personally, I don't think exceptions should make a band eligible for inclusion in the site. There are quite a few bands who have one or two songs that could easily fit into 'prog', but if those elements are almost always not present in their music, then the band probably should not be called a prog-band. Then of course you get into what if a band starts out as prog and turns into something else, or starts as something else and turns into prog... I'm not going to talk about Deep Purple in particular though, because I'm not familiar with enough of their music to do so. ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 14:09
Agreed. There are quite a few albums I wouldn't have in the top 100, but then, that's only my opinion
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 19:11
Correct - It deserves to be #1
Correct again, you seriously don't belong in the top ten!
CTTE is three song album with two prog songs.
SEBTP an eight song album with two prog songs.
TAAB a one song album with two prog song...
looks like Floyd for the win then.
small point, but the chart is the top 100 albums in the archive - not the top 100 prog-only albums and certainly not of all time. your claim is ludicrous.
Okay, I'm not joking now.
I rate every album in the top 10 highly - I do think that perhaps Genesis may be a little over represented, but I don't care that much because I've liked each of those since they were originally released and anyhow, I'm quite good at mentally skipping those and noticing that VdGG are in the top 20, along with PFM and Dream Theatre - hey I can look further down and see Riverside and Porcupine Tree and think - cool, that's really good going for albums that have only been released a few years - so I know that all is well with the world and the entire universe isn't going to disappear up Roger Water's backside.
In 1975 when Wish You Were Here was released we really didn't give a flying duck about how Prog it was, all we were interested in then was damn fine music recorded by a damn fine bands and Pink Floyd produced the goods so we were happy. We were so happy in fact that we bought it in sufficient numbers to get it to #1 in the album charts (sorry, but we didn't have the cash to do that with Close to the Edge or Selling England by the Pound, but you know, it was the seventies, in the UK we had strikes, power cuts and rising unemployment to worry about, the USA had it's own problems to deal with, students were rioting in France - well, you get the picture).
Pink Floyd have done it all - they have charted the course from psychedelic-pop through space-rock and mad improvisations to symphonic, ethereal, jazzy-pop, heavy-rock, latin-themed music, folk-music and pure progressive-rock covering every subject under the sun in linear concepts, abstract concepts, emotional concepts and reaccuring concepts. And everytime they did this they created their own rules (for other others to take or discard as they wished). Pink Floyd may not have written THE rules on prog, but they showed everyone how it should be done, and (horrors!) even made a bit of money doing it.
To me that is what progressive means - not long compositions, layering, wierd time-signatures and clever lyrics (though Floyd all did those in abundance, and in many cases they were one of the first bands to do them)
On this site I have read pages of arguments on how X is prog but Y is not, or how band Z made some prog albums and then made some non-prog albums, and to be honest it is all just opinion. A band is either a prog band or it isn't and if a prog band makes a non-prog album, then so what? what does that mater? what does it prove?
I've been listening to Wish You Were Here for 32 years and it still astounds and astonishes me. I would like to hope that we will be saying the same thing about Porcupine Tree and Pain of Salvation in 30 years time. (honestly, I do, and I think we will). You say it isn't prog. I disagree: WYWH is a very cynical album about the music industry, something that Roger Waters started in 1969 with Cymbaline and again in 1972 with Free Four, (and has carried on with for the rest of his career). But cynicism, being a negative emotion, is never an easy starting point, yet Floyd managed to make the music carry this sentiment without being completely contemptuous of what they were trying to say, because I find that the music is strangely optimistic (ref: the title track) - a conterpoint to the lyrics - that's a fairly progressive concept isn't it.
 I'm sorry if WYWH isn't prog enough for you, but let us have this discussion in 2039 and see if you think the same. (I'll be 82 by then, so I might just permit you to shout, but only so as I can hear you)
 We are just two lost souls
Swiming in a fish bowl, year after year
Running over the same old ground.
What have we found? The same old fears.
Wish You Were Here. ------------- What? |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 19:28
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Damn, I just realised PA logo is pink and purple. That resembles Pink Floyd and Deep Purple and none of them is prog! I demand changing of the PA logo immediately! Actually, I'm so upset about it I'm going to start a new thread... ------------- |
Posted By: billbuckner
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 22:22
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For god's sake, WYWH isn't in the #2 spot because it's somehow the second best album on the site, it's there because it's the second most liked album on the site. That list is showing the most loved albums, not what albums are objectively the best. Don't blame people for liking things that you don't. |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 22:38
 Very well said BB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------- |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 22:45
I concur------------- 
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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: June 25 2007 at 23:36
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I stand my ground!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -------------
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 00:00
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I don't think CTTE deserves to be in the top 10, and I'm certainly not going to sit here and let you say that Have A Cigar isn't prog, but I also am not going to write you an essay, so I will sum up my positions succintly:
Shut up, you. Nobody cares.
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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 00:28
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your not rude at all! -------------
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 01:49
| ^You're right he wasn't rude at all...straight to the point. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 01:56
A long read...but I agree with just about all of it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 07:30
| Me too, mostly, but which song on CTTE isn't prog? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 07:35
You're right...I don't agree with him on many points!  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 08:49
Perhaps none of you saw the post referring to the top 100 being a popularity contest?
Thats all it is. To say WYWH is more Prog than Yes's Fragile is a joke, well, at least to me. People interpret the meaning all wrong, of course calling the list "the Top 100" is misleading because it is ambiguous.
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 14:28
I wouldn't have to be if you would stop saying stupid things (it would also help if you improved your grasp and/or use of basic spelling and grammar); for example, this unnecessarily dramatic, ineffective, and completely superfluous thread, or the amazingly redundant "WHO KILLED GENESIS?" thread, or the time you called someone stupid for disliking Yes, or the time you mercilessly butchered the spelling of "favorite"...twice (not to mention your apostrophe placement).
Am I being mean? Absolutely. However, sometimes that is the only way to get through to people.
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 14:35
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Ghandi's not such a pacifist, huh? |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 14:37
I was just thinking the same thing. The name must be a sarcastic one, eh?
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 14:43
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 14:43
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 14:51
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5E9uPWkuRk - No more Mr. Passive Resistance! (Please ignore the subtitles and low rez and darkness)
Moderating my other forum has made me mean. It's not my fault! D:
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Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 15:02
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I rather agree with much of what Ghandi says, and I appreciate his/her? forthrightness, but...as for the spelling, I hope your username isn't fashioned after Mohandas K. Gandhi, because if so, you can't spell either!
------------- The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning And all the rest is just bullsh*t -Steve Kilbey |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 15:13
A classic movie ------------- <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 15:44
His (there are no girls on the internet
), and the mispelling is intentional to respect the memory of Gandhi more, and so there is a slightly lower chance of my being sent to Hell for naming myself after that video clip. I've heard, though, that it could be spelt either way; I think it's because Indian (or whatever) uses characters that aren't even close to English's. Thank you for the compliment as well. :)Yes, UHF is an underappreciated classic. But stupid Raiders of the Lost Ark had to come out at the same time and ruin its commercial success. If you enjoy a bit of "dumb" humor, you should rent it immediately. I can't say I'm still a fan of Weird Al's music, but that movie is genius.
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Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 15:52
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Darn...I tried to get you, but you've got an answer for everything, you glib son of a gun.
I really like Wish You Were Here. Not prog? That kid of strains the boundaries of credibility, doesn't it? Pink Floyd helped invent the genre! ------------- The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning And all the rest is just bullsh*t -Steve Kilbey |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 15:59
That is news to me. I thought the pretentious artsy types were the originators of Prog. The ones who played lofty difficult pieces. You could, however, say they helped invent Space or Psychedelic Rock.
I think PF was an after the fact inclusion.
edit: I also think their laurels have much to do with their inclusion. No one discounts the importance of the band to other artists following them, but I have to admit, when I first came here, I was a bit surprised about their inclusion. I am seriously trying to think of a band that plays with simplicity and ranks high among the great Prog musicians outside of PF. One of the true elements of Prog has time and again been complexity of the pieces as a band.
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Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 17:08
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Well, now that depends on whether you think musical complexity is a necessary ingredient of progressive music. I don't, personally. I think that's just one strand in this ball of yarn we call "prog". ------------- The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning And all the rest is just bullsh*t -Steve Kilbey |
Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 17:09
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Hence the much-reviled wide ranging scope of our beloved ProgArchives!
------------- The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning And all the rest is just bullsh*t -Steve Kilbey |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 26 2007 at 17:47
When Pink Floyd were releasing Atom Heart Mother, Meddle, Dark Side Of The Moon and Wish You Were Here during the first half of the Seventies they were regarded as being a part of the Progressive scene by those in the Progressive music scene and by those Prog-fans buying the records.
This is not hearsay, or inclusion after the fact, that is what happened - I was one those prog-fans, one who also bought Yes, Genesis, Van Der Graaf Generator, King Crimson, Atomic Rooster, Jethro Tull and Tangerine Dream albums.
All this nonsense about complexity never entered into it - that is a modern affectation and a fact after the inclusion. If Pink Floyd are not Prog by modern standards and "rules" then the either rules and standards are wrong, or it is the interprettation of those rules that is in error. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 27 2007 at 15:01
| Pink Floyd were definately not included as prog restroactively, and I have the interviews with David Gilmour to prove it. Advanced composition was what first defined prog, not technical complexity. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 27 2007 at 15:11
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Well then. OK. I always thought it was . What is advanced composition? -------------
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: June 27 2007 at 15:40
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You have to stop looking at the top 100 as being the definition of greatness. I could supply you with a whole list of worthy albums that almost no one has heard of. I suggest getting away from the well know titles, and doing some exploring. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: June 27 2007 at 17:34
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Posted By: Paradox
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 07:40
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The more popular an album or artist is, the more reviews they will get and therefore certain albums will be elevated through the ranks. Obviously if enough people value an album so much then it can't be overrated. It is surely rated so highly for a reason, whether or not you see it. ------------- 
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 08:59
Popularity pushes people to buy certain albums. This exposure is why say 95% of the users here own WYWH, versus the 25% who might own, say, a UK album.
Are albums over-rated? I'd rather say the lesser known albums are not given a fair shake.
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 09:05
It is what it is, we see what we want to see, both sides. I still believe other bands that aren't labeled Prog, like Floyd, are short changed. Floyd's popularity gives them the upper hand.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 09:09
Unfortunately, lesser known does not mean they are necessarily good. Some albums are lesser known for a reason. In other cases it is down to the record companies not promoting the product or the music press simply ignoring it because it wasn't flavour of the month. All the bands listed on this web-site have recognition, browse any sub-genre, pick a band and choose an album - they are all listed alphabetically - no ranking there.
The real exposure issue is not about the "big-five" bands vs the rest, but about all the bands listed vs those that are not.
However, this does not distract from the certainty that cream always rises to the top. ------------- What? |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 09:26
Good points. The best albums, or at least those most accessible in a mainstream Prog manner, certainly are well represented. I am realizing this as I type it, those in the Top 10 are mainstream Prog. Possibly the Top 25.
Statistically, if all albums were only allowed 50 reviews, I'm sure we'd see a significant ranking change outside the top 10.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 09:51
I'm not sure without doing the maths, but I doubt it would make a huge difference, there are bands in the top 50 with fewer than 40 ratings, which suggests that the results are skewed in favour of bands that are highly-regarded within their genre, (which is what I think Mike's algorythm was trying to achieve).
The bands with lesser exposure have a piffling number of reviews and ratings by comparision (there are hundreds of bands with fewer than 10 ratings).
My solution for redressing the balance is simple:
stop reviewing and rating the bands in the top 100
start reviewing and rating the albums with few ratings.
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 09:53
Five clappies for you!I couldn't agree more.Or if an album has say 200 ratings, why rate it more? Close the rating.
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 10:03
Because the site isn't setting any restriction at all to those who want to review an album (whether it's in the top, with hundred of reviews, or with no reviews, ignored by anybody). Nor does it think of what reviewers are oriented towards (meaning that there is no telling if a fan of prog is keen on all these popular albums or likes to go through more various and obscure styles). In other words, it just can't be stopped or restricted/directed. There is no abuse, there isn't even an unnatural thing. -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 10:05
So what you are saying is a ratings bias is totally acceptable.
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 10:19
I'm saying that MIster X - fan of progressive rock - has his one awarded chance to review an album (whether that's Close To The Edge or Cardeilhac, Wish You Were Here or Sebkha Chott etc.) Except if he abuses by reviewing, his review is valid and welcomed (whether that would be the first review of the album or the 500th). -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 10:35
I think the system as it is self-correcting, a single review out of 500 is worth 0.2% of the overal score, whereas the first review is the overall score.
The questions you have to ask yourself is: Have I got anything to say that hasn't been said before? ------------- What? |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 10:42
I have stopped rating albums without a review. I realized that a rating without a written review, it is an empty tally. Like you have indicated, there may be some redundancy in reviews, but taking the time to explain your rating helps to validate it.
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 10:44
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I always makee a point of reviewing albums with a small number of ratings. I don't think I have anything to add about Close to the Edge. However, there's no reason to forbid other people from reviewing it if that's what makes them happy. -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 11:04
Perhaps in terms of the bell curve and the law of averages, data points need to be thrown out to provide a more accurate mean. I know this is done in science to keep outliers in check.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 11:08
That doesn't work when there are only 5 marks to be awarded - it's too course. ------------- What? |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 11:11
So statistically speaking, this would require a minimum set of data points before allowed to be added to the ranks.
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 11:15
| I hate to sound childish, but it's unfair to limit the number of reviews an album is allowed to have. At the very least it would cause a little stir. Would we have to have a lottery to decide who would review? Or would we all submit reviews to an admin, who would then pick the 50 best. I daresay the admins wouldn't like that job, especially with any Yes, DT, Crimson, Floyd, and Genesis albums. DT's another thing. You'd get 50 reviews before anyone got a legitimate copy of the album. Just let people review what they want. The odds are good people who start with the more "mainstream" artists will move deeper. That's what happened to me. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 11:17
You mean coarse of course. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 11:29
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Posted By: Joseth On Kings
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 13:05
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 13:08
If nobody cared, nobody would respond.
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Posted By: Joseth On Kings
Date Posted: June 28 2007 at 13:09
| Now I have to admit that I personally am not a big fan of Pink Floyd, except for Dark side of the moon, animals, and Another brick in the wall. So this isn't that big of a deal to me, but the whole rating system technically is only based on other peoples opinions and not by the government or whatever, so it's not like they're saying that that really is the 2nd best alblum it's just what people think. |