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music theory general knowledge exchange

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Topic: music theory general knowledge exchange
Posted By: purplepiper
Subject: music theory general knowledge exchange
Date Posted: June 19 2007 at 19:56
Hello fellow peoples. I'm a musician who loves to eat up any little bit of knowlege I can get from people who know more than me. I've got so many questions! For instance, what exactly is the definition of an arpeggio, or what exactly is dissonance, or what exactly is harmony between notes. We all 'sort of know' what these things mean, but I couldn't define it. This is intended as a thread for some of the more theory oriented people here to share some basic knowledge and enlighten the rest of us.
I'll start us off- i'll explain the concept of modes. A mode is essentially a 'starting position' in a scale. Every scale has as many modes as it has notes in it. The major scale, having 7 notes, has 7 modes (ionian/major, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian/minor, locrian) To utilize any of these modes, simply treat their coresponding 'starting positions' as the root of the scale. It's not difficult at all, they are all just versions of the same scale with an emphasis on different notes. If anyone would like further explanation, i'll be happy to explain! (I know a lot of you know this stuff already, but many of the musicians i've met did not. This is an opportunity for people to learn something useful =)

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for those about to prog, we salute you.



Replies:
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 19 2007 at 20:51
Why the emphasis on twelve-tone equal temperment?  Let's talk about pythagarean tunings!

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Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: June 19 2007 at 21:06
do you know about them? If so, do explain! I like to hear about these obscure musical things. Do you know about the medieval modes, or church modes? I've been wondering what those were...

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for those about to prog, we salute you.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 19 2007 at 21:13
Originally posted by purplepiper purplepiper wrote:

Hello fellow peoples. I'm a musician who loves to eat up any little bit of knowlege I can get from people who know more than me. I've got so many questions! For instance, what exactly is the definition of an arpeggio, or what exactly is dissonance, or what exactly is harmony between notes. We all 'sort of know' what these things mean, but I couldn't define it. This is intended as a thread for some of the more theory oriented people here to share some basic knowledge and enlighten the rest of us.
I'll start us off- i'll explain the concept of modes. A mode is essentially a 'starting position' in a scale. Every scale has as many modes as it has notes in it. The major scale, having 7 notes, has 7 modes (ionian/major, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian/minor, locrian) To utilize any of these modes, simply treat their coresponding 'starting positions' as the root of the scale. It's not difficult at all, they are all just versions of the same scale with an emphasis on different notes. If anyone would like further explanation, i'll be happy to explain! (I know a lot of you know this stuff already, but many of the musicians i've met did not. This is an opportunity for people to learn something useful =)
 
As Purplepiper says, Modes are startlingly easy once you get the hang of it. I find it easiest to think of them on a piano keyboard. In any octave there are 7 white-keys and 5 black-keys (sharps); if you start on "C" and play the 7 white-keys up to (but not including) the next "C" you have played the Major scale, which is also the Ionian Mode. However if you start at "D" and play all the white-keys up to the next "D" you have played the Dorian scale. All the modal scales using this method are as follows:
 
C: Ionian (or Major Scale)
D: Dorian
E: Phrygian
F: Lydian
G: Mixolydian
A: Aeolian (or Minor Scale)
B: Locrian
 
Obviously to play a Major scale in "D" would mean starting at "D" and then playing the same semitone intervals between notes that there were in the key of C-major (t-t-s-t-t-t), so in this case the F and C would be sharpened. This transposition is simply based upon the semi-tone intervals of the original root, hence transposing a Modal scale into a different key is done by the same method.
 


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What?


Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 19 2007 at 21:14
I just know what I read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning

It sounds interesting. 


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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 19 2007 at 21:37
Some music written in a 43-step scale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g01kx_68ih0&mode=related&search=

Beautiful stuff!


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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 19 2007 at 21:54
An arpeggio is a chord played in horizontal (musical) space rather than vertical. In other words, it is the notes of a chord played one after the other, not at the same time. Since any combination of three or more notes is a chord, technically any melodic line could be called an arpeggio, but that's not what is usually meant.

Dissonance is an arbitrary concept that has changed throughout the years. It refers to the complexity of the waveforms of sound and how two or more pitches interact with each other. In Medieval times, anything other than a perfect fifth, perfect fourth, octave and unison was considered dissonant. As time went on, thirds and sixths became acceptable and today even major seconds sound fine to most of us.

Harmony between notes is basically the same thing. The frequencies of different pitches interfere with each other and we perceive this more complex sound as harmony. For example, A below middle C has a frequency of 440 hertz. The A above that is twice that frequency, 880 hertz. When two frequencies are combined, the ratio between them determines the harmony. A ratio of 2-1 as above is very simple and sounds as an octave, not really harmony. The E above middle C is approximately 660 hertz, and so has a ratio of 3-2 with the A below. This creates a perfect fifth. The more complex these ratios, the more "dissonant" the harmony.


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Posted By: THE_POLE
Date Posted: June 20 2007 at 08:07
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by purplepiper purplepiper wrote:

Hello fellow peoples. I'm a musician who loves to eat up any little bit of knowlege I can get from people who know more than me. I've got so many questions! For instance, what exactly is the definition of an arpeggio, or what exactly is dissonance, or what exactly is harmony between notes. We all 'sort of know' what these things mean, but I couldn't define it. This is intended as a thread for some of the more theory oriented people here to share some basic knowledge and enlighten the rest of us.
I'll start us off- i'll explain the concept of modes. A mode is essentially a 'starting position' in a scale. Every scale has as many modes as it has notes in it. The major scale, having 7 notes, has 7 modes (ionian/major, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian/minor, locrian) To utilize any of these modes, simply treat their coresponding 'starting positions' as the root of the scale. It's not difficult at all, they are all just versions of the same scale with an emphasis on different notes. If anyone would like further explanation, i'll be happy to explain! (I know a lot of you know this stuff already, but many of the musicians i've met did not. This is an opportunity for people to learn something useful =)
 
As Purplepiper says, Modes are startlingly easy once you get the hang of it. I find it easiest to think of them on a piano keyboard. In any octave there are 7 white-keys and 5 black-keys (sharps); if you start on "C" and play the 7 white-keys up to (but not including) the next "C" you have played the Major scale, which is also the Ionian Mode. However if you start at "D" and play all the white-keys up to the next "D" you have played the Dorian scale. All the modal scales using this method are as follows:
 
C: Ionian (or Major Scale)
D: Dorian
E: Phrygian
F: Lydian
G: Mixolydian
A: Aeolian (or Minor Scale)
B: Locrian
 
Obviously to play a Major scale in "D" would mean starting at "D" and then playing the same semitone intervals between notes that there were in the key of C-major (t-t-s-t-t-t), so in this case the F and C would be sharpened. This transposition is simply based upon the semi-tone intervals of the original root, hence transposing a Modal scale into a different key is done by the same method.
 

Modes are something i could never understand well. I know that a major scale(ionian mode) is meant to sound fairly bright and happy, and the Aeloian has more emphasis on the minor chords and sounds sad. But what are the moods that can be associated with the other 5 modes? or are they major or minor to varying degrees?


And waht purplepiper said about church modes and medieval modes, what are they? Would a medieval node give a scale that sounds like medieval folk music? If it did that would be cool and that's exactly what i've been trying to find for a very long time.
Is a blues scale just another mode?


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http://www.last.fm/user/the_pole/">



Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 20 2007 at 12:38
The modes are divided into "major" or "minor" modes based on whether the third of the mode is major or minor. The major modes are Ionian, Lydian and Myxolydian, the minor modes are Dorian Aeolian, Phrygian and Locrian. As far as moods go, it's not really that simple. Phrygian has a "Spanish" feel to it and Lydian is enigmatic. I guess Mixolydian could be called "bluesy" but a lot depends on how they are played. The blues scale is not a mode, because it contains an entirely different set of intervals than the major scale. It is also only six notes, being 1-b3-4-#4-5-b7 of the key.

The Medieval modes are the same as the modes we have been talking about, except that they were further divdied up based on the highest and lowest note in the melody. For example, a medieval Dorian melody would have its highest and lowest note on or around D. One that used the same intervals but but had its highest and lowest note on or around A (the fifth) would be called Hypodorian.

EDIT: to correct factual errors.


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Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: June 20 2007 at 16:07
all of the modes are essentially either major or minor, all having a different 'mood' to them. Happy and sad are very very basic emotions. The moods that the other modes express are sometimes difficult to describe, but that's okay because you only need to hear it. I'll try to explain them all in terms of feeling
 
ionian-natural major -happy/cheerful/bright
dorian-minor-dark/'cool'/jazzy
phrygian-minor-spanish/romantic
lydian-major-melacholic/enigmatic/mysterious
mixolydian-major-hip
aeolian-natural minor-sad/dark/'classical'/brooding
locrian-minor-unresolved/uneasy
 
I did the best I could to put it in words, but you really need to listen carefully and make your own judgements. Remember, every scale has modes! try experimenting with the modes of exotic scales...


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for those about to prog, we salute you.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 20 2007 at 17:32
Originally posted by purplepiper purplepiper wrote:

lydian-major-melacholic/enigmatic/mysterious
 
One superb exponent of the Lydian mode is Danny Elfman: The Simpsons theme tune is lydian, being Major it first appears happy and bright like any normal TV-Family sitcom theme, (but that's mainly down to the instrumentation), but if you listen to the melody there is something slightly askew and off-kilter about it, making sound un-normal... a parody infact. Smile


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What?


Posted By: THE_POLE
Date Posted: June 20 2007 at 18:36
Ok, so is there a scale/mode then that would allow me to write music wiith a european folky(scandinavian in particular) feel to it? I mean, it's easy to write blues melodies on a blues scale, but not knowing it it's a little more difficult because you have to work out yourself what intervals make a melody sound bluesy. Do folky melodies work in a similar way? What about middle eastern folk?
I'm attempting to write music influenced by a lot of folk metal that i listen to, but i'm having trouble getting the melodies to sound right.


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http://www.last.fm/user/the_pole/">



Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 20 2007 at 19:19
Originally posted by THE_POLE THE_POLE wrote:

Ok, so is there a scale/mode then that would allow me to write music wiith a european folky(scandinavian in particular) feel to it? I mean, it's easy to write blues melodies on a blues scale, but not knowing it it's a little more difficult because you have to work out yourself what intervals make a melody sound bluesy. Do folky melodies work in a similar way? What about middle eastern folk?
I'm attempting to write music influenced by a lot of folk metal that i listen to, but i'm having trouble getting the melodies to sound right.
Scandinavian folk music melodies often keep within the first five notes of a scale. The Locrian mode has an eastern feel to it.


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What?


Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: June 20 2007 at 22:22
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by purplepiper purplepiper wrote:

lydian-major-melacholic/enigmatic/mysterious
 
One superb exponent of the Lydian mode is Danny Elfman: The Simpsons theme tune is lydian, being Major it first appears happy and bright like any normal TV-Family sitcom theme, (but that's mainly down to the instrumentation), but if you listen to the melody there is something slightly askew and off-kilter about it, making sound un-normal... a parody infact. Smile
you're absolutely correct. I had noticed that, but who would have thought anyone else did?

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for those about to prog, we salute you.


Posted By: Yann
Date Posted: June 21 2007 at 09:01
What is the utility when you play (for example), in dorian mode, major scale? You start by D, but, is there any utility? I never understood about it....Thanks for explanation

Edit: My teacher told to me, years ago, that the goal of "Modes" is to give another....."sensation". For example, in dorian mode, you will emphase on the D note and will add a certain....."feel" but I don't know how to get that feel, for me, it still a major scale...


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Ertê tnof soun sons sel


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 21 2007 at 09:14
Originally posted by THE_POLE THE_POLE wrote:

Ok, so is there a scale/mode then that would allow me to write music wiith a european folky(scandinavian in particular) feel to it? I mean, it's easy to write blues melodies on a blues scale, but not knowing it it's a little more difficult because you have to work out yourself what intervals make a melody sound bluesy. Do folky melodies work in a similar way? What about middle eastern folk?
I'm attempting to write music influenced by a lot of folk metal that i listen to, but i'm having trouble getting the melodies to sound right.


Irish folk music is often written in Dorian. If you want an Eastern European feel, the harmonic minor (1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7) and Hungarian minor (1-2-b3-#4-5-b6-7) scales are good for that.


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Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: June 21 2007 at 13:56
Originally posted by Yann Yann wrote:

What is the utility when you play (for example), in dorian mode, major scale? You start by D, but, is there any utility? I never understood about it....Thanks for explanation

Edit: My teacher told to me, years ago, that the goal of "Modes" is to give another....."sensation". For example, in dorian mode, you will emphase on the D note and will add a certain....."feel" but I don't know how to get that feel, for me, it still a major scale...
Here's the secret man...every mode has one note that gives the mode its 'flavour'. That's the key to bringing out the modes character. Emphasise the roots, and the 'character note' as i'll call it. For example, the 6th note (if I recall correctly) is the character note in the dorian mode. You can also derive chords from this principle (which I came up with on my own!) some modes are more obvious in where their character lies, like the lydian mode, who's character note is the fourth note of the scale.

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for those about to prog, we salute you.


Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 21 2007 at 17:43
What's the harmonic minor (the one where you play natural sixths and sevenths going up and flat ones going down) good for?  It seems pretty useless to me, as you usually don't find yourself directly ascending or descending scales.  

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Posted By: Yann
Date Posted: June 21 2007 at 17:59
But how do you apply theses modes?




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Ertê tnof soun sons sel


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2007 at 18:58
Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

What's the harmonic minor (the one where you play natural sixths and sevenths going up and flat ones going down) good for?  It seems pretty useless to me, as you usually don't find yourself directly ascending or descending scales.  
It is the Melodic Minor that has different ascending and desending scales. It is not just about playing scales, it is about playing a melody and what sounds melodic.
 
Notes in a melody will either ascend or desend and the direction that you take from one note to the next determines which scale to use (sort of).
 
The natural minor scale has a whole step between the 7th note and the tonic, which means that when playing a melody that goes up the scale it may not flow as smoothly into the next octave as say a major scale would. The melodic minor attempts to "fix" this by sharpening the 6th and 7th notes. When the melody desends, the whole step from I to VII is not as noticable, so you can revert back to the natural minor scale.
 
However, these "rules" are not cast in stone - play what sounds right to you, Jazz often uses the ascending in both directions, but if you use the desending in both directions you are really only playing a natural minor scale.


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What?


Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: June 22 2007 at 02:14
Originally posted by Yann Yann wrote:

But how do you apply theses modes?


hmmm...not sure what you mean. apply them...well, you use them just like any other scale. knowing them also enables you to solo in the major scale (or in any other mode technically) all the way up the neck. For example, you're going to solo in, say g major. You know the 'box pattern' of the g major scale, but you want to go further up the neck...to 'uncharted' frets. well, utilize the second 'starting position', which happens to be the dorian mode. You would then be moved up to a/fret 5. It is a continuation of the major scale, which is generally considered the 'parent scale' for all of the modes. You could then proceed through every mode, while remaining within the major scale. Only once you have made the first note in a different starting position the root, will you be 'in that mode'. so the function of the modes is to enable you to play in any scale (as they all have modes) all up and down the fretboard. each mode shows the hidden moods in a scale as well. They're like the different personalities in any one person. ex: monday (first starting position) you feel happy. Tuesday (second starting position) you feel a little different, kinda sad maybe etc., but these moods are all happening in the same person ultimately. And remember, the starting positions are derived from the major scale itself, but are usually played on low e (string 6).
 
HOPE YOU'RE STARTING TO GET IT!Smile
I'll tell you more if you're still not getting it...I like to share my immense knowledge!


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for those about to prog, we salute you.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 22 2007 at 05:02
Another way of thinking about modes is when soloing over a chord progression. If you are playing in D-minor and play a Dm chord all the notes in the chord are in the minor scale. If the progression contains Dm7, this now has a note that is not in the D-minor scale, the 7th note is flat, and if you flatten the 7th note in the minor scale you get the dorian.
 
Even though all the notes in the D-dorian are also in the C-major you haven't changed key - you are still in the key of D-minor because the root note is D and the chords are Dminor.


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What?


Posted By: Yann
Date Posted: June 22 2007 at 08:41
Just a test If I understood:

1- If i'm doing a riff in C major dorian, I will not play the tonic if I do a C chord and C is the lower note. Will I replace the C by a D ?
2- The chord D minor ( second degree in major scale is minor ), will be an usefull chord to get the feel of dorian mode.
3- We can have a C major dorian mode but D minor dorian mode too, by using modes, we can get "simillar scales".

***for dargdead*** Why, if I flat the 7th note in minor scale it becomes dorian? Is there another order for the minor scale, modes are differents? Differents positions?

P.s Thx for your help everybody!


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Ertê tnof soun sons sel


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 22 2007 at 09:05
Originally posted by Yann Yann wrote:

***for darqdean*** Why, if I flat the 7th note in minor scale it becomes dorian? Is there another order for the minor scale, modes are differents? Differents positions?

P.s Thx for your help everybody!
Sorry my mistake... I meant sharpen and it's the sixth note, which is not in theDm7 chord (D,F,A,C) but is in the Dm6 chord (D,F,A,B) - so my whole post is rubbish really - sorry Embarrassed
 
D-minor = D,E,F,G,A,A#,C
D-dorian= D,E,F,G,A,B,C


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What?


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: June 22 2007 at 09:26
Originally posted by Yann Yann wrote:

Just a test If I understood:

1- If i'm doing a riff in C major dorian, I will not play the tonic if I do a C chord and C is the lower note. Will I replace the C by a D ?
2- The chord D minor ( second degree in major scale is minor ), will be an usefull chord to get the feel of dorian mode.
3- We can have a C major dorian mode but D minor dorian mode too, by using modes, we can get "simillar scales".

P.s Thx for your help everybody!


You're confused. There is no such thing as "C Major Dorian." C major is one mode, C dorian is another. C dorian contains these notes: C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb. In other words, it's a Bb major scale starting from the second note and emphasizing that note as the tonic. So a tune written in C Dorian will fell like it's "In C" but sound different than either C major or C minor.


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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 22 2007 at 09:27
Originally posted by Yann Yann wrote:

Just a test If I understood:

1- If i'm doing a riff in C major dorian, I will not play the tonic if I do a C chord and C is the lower note. Will I replace the C by a D ?
2- The chord D minor ( second degree in major scale is minor ), will be an usefull chord to get the feel of dorian mode.
3- We can have a C major dorian mode but D minor dorian mode too, by using modes, we can get "simillar scales".

***for dargdead*** Why, if I flat the 7th note in minor scale it becomes dorian? Is there another order for the minor scale, modes are differents? Differents positions?

P.s Thx for your help everybody!


I don't know what you mean by "C major dorian" and C minor dorian" ... dorian mode is always minor. Essentially when you play a song in D minor and you're only using white keys, then it's dorian. Wink


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Posted By: Yann
Date Posted: June 22 2007 at 15:24
Ahhh now its more clear!  Thanks for infos !!!!

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Ertê tnof soun sons sel


Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 23:52
why is my thread dying? I was hoping more knowledgeable progheads would share some theory secrets. Step right up ladies and gentlemen! Post something and win a prize!* (*details may apply, like the fact that you don't actually win a prize).
 
C'MON GUYS! Share some knowledge!


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for those about to prog, we salute you.


Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 16:30
Originally posted by THE_POLE THE_POLE wrote:

Ok, so is there a scale/mode then that would allow me to write music wiith a european folky(scandinavian in particular) feel to it? I mean, it's easy to write blues melodies on a blues scale, but not knowing it it's a little more difficult because you have to work out yourself what intervals make a melody sound bluesy. Do folky melodies work in a similar way? What about middle eastern folk?I'm attempting to write music influenced by a lot of folk metal that i listen to, but i'm having trouble getting the melodies to sound right.


I haven't been playing much things with celtic or scandinavian flavour, but most of these are just simple melodies. I would use harmonic minor and play some kinda sequences. Just listen to what you play and come out with some catchy melody.

More interesting and more difficult is creating an middle-eastern flavour. I don't find all the scales' stupid names like "eastern bedouin midnight battle scale" much useful. I've come across several names for just one scale so I stopped using those names. But you can create your own scale that sounds arabic. The trick is in the number of semitones (half-steps). The "non-arabic-sounding ones" (all seven modes, melodic minor) have only two semitones, that's too little. You would need at least tree of them, just like harmonic minor. Raising the 4th note of harmonic minor you get a scale with four semitones, which sounds even more exotic. It's refered to as Algerian and Hungarian minor (I call it harmonic minor with raised fourth). It also has, of course, seven modes. My favourite is the fifth (Byzantine scale). Here they are:

1st - T 2M 3m 4+ 5 6m 7M - Algerian scale, Hungarian minor scale
2nd - T 2m 3M 4 5- 6M 7m - Oriental scale
3rd - T 2m 3M 4 5+ 6M 7M
4th - T 2m 3- 4 5- 6m 7-
5th - T 2m 3M 4 5 6m 7M - Byzantine scale
6th - T 2+ 3M 4+ 5 6+ 7M
7th - T 2m 3m 4- 5 6m 7-

Another trick is, over what chord it is played. If you play E byzantine over A minor, it won't sound very exotic, but play it over E major and you got it!

Interesting is Southern Indian classical music with its 72 ragas (scales). But this is just for fun, don't even try to learn it!!

http://www.ipnatlanta.net/camaga/vidyarthi/Carnatic_Basics/Melakarta_Scheme.htm

Chinese music uses well-known pentatonic scale.
There is a mystery (for me) about Japanese music though. I know nothing about its theory, but Marty Friedman of Megadeth knows a lot! So ask him, lol. He has also studied music from all around the world, so can be considered a real expert. Get some of his videos or books, or if you're looking for anything particular, try his website www.martyfriedman.com. He usually has no problem with answering his fans' questions.

In conclusion, it's not only about scales. In fact, maybe, it's not about scales at all. Music is all about intervals - those are the basic building block of music, not the pitches as many people tend to think, but the relationship between them.


Posted By: nightlamp
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 19:34
Originally posted by purplepiper purplepiper wrote:

do you know about them? If so, do explain! I like to hear about these obscure musical things. Do you know about the medieval modes, or church modes? I've been wondering what those were...


The medieval modes (Church modes) were similar to our current modal system.  Originally there were eight Church modes broken into pairs of authentic and plagal (hypo-) modes: Dorian, Hypodorian, Phrygian, Hypophrygian, Lydian, Hypolydian, Mixolydian, and Hypomixolydian.   A given pairing of authentic and plagal modes would use the same basic note values, but the Ambitus (or range) was different.  An authentic mode would have a roughly one-octave ambitus of tonic to tonic (perhaps including the lower leading tone).  A plagal mode would usually range from a fourth below the tonic to a fifth above the tonic.  During the Renaissance, four new modes were added that conformed (roughly) to the same system: Aeolian, Hypoaeolian, Ionian, and Hypoionian. 

Hope this helps! Smile


Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 22:41
Originally posted by nightlamp nightlamp wrote:

Originally posted by purplepiper purplepiper wrote:

do you know about them? If so, do explain! I like to hear about these obscure musical things. Do you know about the medieval modes, or church modes? I've been wondering what those were...


The medieval modes (Church modes) were similar to our current modal system.  Originally there were eight Church modes broken into pairs of authentic and plagal (hypo-) modes: Dorian, Hypodorian, Phrygian, Hypophrygian, Lydian, Hypolydian, Mixolydian, and Hypomixolydian.   A given pairing of authentic and plagal modes would use the same basic note values, but the Ambitus (or range) was different.  An authentic mode would have a roughly one-octave ambitus of tonic to tonic (perhaps including the lower leading tone).  A plagal mode would usually range from a fourth below the tonic to a fifth above the tonic.  During the Renaissance, four new modes were added that conformed (roughly) to the same system: Aeolian, Hypoaeolian, Ionian, and Hypoionian. 

Hope this helps! Smile
 
yeah, I posted this a while ago. I've since learned about the medieval modes. I find them to be impractical personally, a bit redundant. If I want to go a fourth below a dorian mode or whatever in a melody, I just do it! I don't need to declare myself as having been in hypodorian. Thanks for to reply though! Post any musical knowledge you wish!


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for those about to prog, we salute you.


Posted By: nightlamp
Date Posted: July 26 2007 at 12:23
Originally posted by purplepiper purplepiper wrote:

yeah, I posted this a while ago. I've since learned about the medieval modes. I find them to be impractical personally, a bit redundant.


Oops...Embarrassed   I certainly can't argue with the redundancy of the church modes now, or the six rhythmic modes for that matter!  I'd love to get some early-music jams going (that adhere to all those modes), but time and circumstances haven't allowed... 



Posted By: purplepiper
Date Posted: July 26 2007 at 16:29
Originally posted by nightlamp nightlamp wrote:

Originally posted by purplepiper purplepiper wrote:

yeah, I posted this a while ago. I've since learned about the medieval modes. I find them to be impractical personally, a bit redundant.


Oops...Embarrassed   I certainly can't argue with the redundancy of the church modes now, or the six rhythmic modes for that matter!  I'd love to get some early-music jams going (that adhere to all those modes), but time and circumstances haven't allowed... 

 
the modern day modes are my musical bible. I think the church modes are just limited versions of what we have now. For the sake of medieval music though, I'd stick to a church mode in an instant!


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for those about to prog, we salute you.


Posted By: jmcdaniel_ee
Date Posted: November 20 2007 at 12:53
Bumping...

Someone mentioned the melodic minor scale.  The James Bond 007 theme is based on that scale (or maybe it's harmonic minor).  The very distinctive chord you hear is a minor chord with a major 7 on top.  (I believe it's Em/maj7.)  Pretty wicked.  Purely harmonic minor gives a really old fashioned medival feel (Greensleeves or the Christmas carol What Child is This?)
 
If you consider the melodic minor as a static scale (i.e. not using it only when ascending or what not) then you can draw 6 other modes from it.  (The anti-modes or whatever you want to call them.)  These are the only other 7 note modes that you can come up with without having a gap of more than a whole step between notes.  But aside from discussion's sake, they're probably largely useless Tongue.
 
You can really get a good wicked effect if you play a diminished chord arpeggio (1, b3, b5, 6th).  The diminished chord repeats every minor 3rd, so if you move it up a minor 3rd, you're playing the same notes, just a different inversion.  Whole tone has some similar concepts, but is generally more disorienting or dreamy than wicked.
 
The major #9 is a pretty funky chord (it's basically a major chord with a minor 3rd an octave higher).
Adding a 9th will make a minor chord sound even sadder, and a major chord sound even happier.  Replacing a 3rd with a 9th makes you sound like Andy Summers.
Moving the bass note of a chord up a whole step will basically turn it into some crazy extensioned chord (like an 11th or 13th depending on what you're playing on top).  I find it's a lot easier to visualize than actually picking out the extensions (on piano at least).  Steely Dan would use these types of chords all the time.  Steely Dan definitely exercises your chord vocabulary.
 
But in the end (IMO), a skilled songwriter can make better use of 2 basic chords than someone unskilled trying to throw all this other stuff in.


Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: November 21 2007 at 04:21
Originally posted by jmcdaniel_ee jmcdaniel_ee wrote:

 
But in the end (IMO), a skilled songwriter can make better use of 2 basic chords than someone unskilled trying to throw all this other stuff in.
 
 
 
That is the single best theory lesson I've ever read.
 
ClapClapClapClapClap


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The important thing is not to stop questioning.


Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 21 2007 at 04:53
A few observations about scales non based on major scales: I know we can use, for example,  a whole tone scale, it contains 6 tones and only 1 mode (itself).

We can use mode for more exotic scales or for pentatonic and blues scale.

But what if some of these modes doesn't contain a third at all, how we will define a character. It's not a problem for my if I'm playing it, but  I'm curios what the musical theory have to say.

For example, two Japanese scales (Hirajoshi and I forgot the name of the second) are basicaly just a two modes of a same scale:

A H C E F A
H C E F A H
They're both lovely.

Of course you can continue with modes...

(H tone here is what English-speakers are calling B, in some European countries H is B, and B is Bb)


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https://japanskipremijeri.bandcamp.com/album/perkusije-gospodine" rel="nofollow - Percussion, sir!


Posted By: Snipergoat
Date Posted: November 22 2007 at 10:00
Whoaa, im really confused about modes now.

Id watched this video of Joe Satriani on YouTube talking about modes and I thought that a mode was basically just another scale. He was playing Lydian, Dorian, Locrian etc... but always staying in the key of E.

Here it is: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHKeC4IEgA

So I learnt "E Lydian".  But I read on the previous page that Lydian can only be F? Ermm

/really confused. :P


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 22 2007 at 10:15
Originally posted by Snipergoat Snipergoat wrote:

Whoaa, im really confused about modes now.

Id watched this video of Joe Satriani on YouTube talking about modes and I thought that a mode was basically just another scale. He was playing Lydian, Dorian, Locrian etc... but always staying in the key of E.

Here it is: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHKeC4IEgA

So I learnt "E Lydian".  But I read on the previous page that Lydian can only be F? Ermm

/really confused. :P
No, you can transpose the Lydian mode into any key you like. in my example I showed how the lydian is made from all the white keys played from F to F on a piano keyboard,
 
if you transpose that down to E you get: E, F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E
 
(or all the same notes as B Major, which makes sense as F Lydian is all the notes from C Major)


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What?


Posted By: Snipergoat
Date Posted: November 22 2007 at 11:12
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by Snipergoat Snipergoat wrote:

Whoaa, im really confused about modes now.

Id watched this video of Joe Satriani on YouTube talking about modes and I thought that a mode was basically just another scale. He was playing Lydian, Dorian, Locrian etc... but always staying in the key of E.

Here it is: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHKeC4IEgA

So I learnt "E Lydian".  But I read on the previous page that Lydian can only be F? Ermm

/really confused. :P
No, you can transpose the Lydian mode into any key you like. in my example I showed how the lydian is made from all the white keys played from F to F on a piano keyboard,
 
if you transpose that down to E you get: E, F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E
 
(or all the same notes as B Major, which makes sense as F Lydian is all the notes from C Major)


So Lydian is 3 Whole Steps - 1 Half - 2 Whole and then 1 more half step?

and if you move that from E to D Lydian it becomes - D, E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D?


What combination of intervals (I think it's called that) make up the Dorian mode?




Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 22 2007 at 20:16
The Dorian is all the white notes starting at D, so it's whole, half, 3 whole, half, whole

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What?


Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: November 22 2007 at 20:36
BEADGoodCornFlakes - order of flats

FatCatsGetDiarrheaAfterEatingBurritos - order of sharps

.
.
.
.


Posted By: Snipergoat
Date Posted: November 23 2007 at 04:05
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

The Dorian is all the white notes starting at D, so it's whole, half, 3 whole, half, whole


Ahh I get it now

Thanks :D


Posted By: Snipergoat
Date Posted: November 25 2007 at 07:16
Could anyone explain Chord Progressions for me? Alot of times when Im reading about theory I see something like... "i (Im) - bVII - bVI - bVII" written down and I really have no clue what that means....


Posted By: jmcdaniel_ee
Date Posted: November 26 2007 at 13:03
Originally posted by Snipergoat Snipergoat wrote:

Could anyone explain Chord Progressions for me? Alot of times when Im reading about theory I see something like... "i (Im) - bVII - bVI - bVII" written down and I really have no clue what that means....
 
In some ways of thinking, the actual key of a song becomes irrelevant.  Either because you may want to play it slightly higher or lower, or if you simply want to analyze the relationships between chords.  So, writing a chord progression in roman numberals makes it easier to discuss relationships.
 
An uppercase is major, a lowercase is minor.  If you're in the key of C playing a I - IV - V progression, the chords will be C, F, G.  If it's i - iv - VI - V, then it's Cm - Fm - A - G.  The numbers are based on degrees of the major scale, so even if you're in the key of Cm (which the minor 3rd is an Eb), a i-III-v progression would be Cm E G, not Cm Eb G.  If you wanted to represent Eb, you would represent it as bIII.  When me and a friend are writing riffs, we usually discuss it this way, i.e. "Should we go to the minor third before or after going to the flat 5th?"
 
Using the notes in a major key, the natural major/minor relationships are as follows: I IV and V are major, ii iii and vi are minor and vii is minor-diminished (1, b3, b5).
 
Louie Louie and TONS of other 50's and 60's rock and R&B songs, and standard 12-bar blues utilize some version of the I IV V progression.



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