Should reviews be written only by genres'
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37479
Printed Date: November 28 2024 at 10:31
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Should reviews be written only by genres'
Posted By: The T
Subject: Should reviews be written only by genres'
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 16:12
|
I ask this because I've read a few opinions saying that people shouldn't review albums that they more than likely won't like because they don't like the genre itself. Now, the argument is not that illogical: if you go about writing a review with pre-conceptions about a particular genre, maybe it won't be that fair. Or, even more important, people that DO love certain genres know more about every aspect of the music and therefore may be more qualified to write a review about an album. On the other hand, might it be that when people that don't like or don't know a particular genre that much write a review about it, that review would probably be more cold, ergo, more useful for another person who doesn't know the music? For example: should I review post-rock? sdhould someone that dislikes progressive-metal review progressive-metal albums? Will those reviews be fairer or more unjust towards the music than reviews written by genre's lovers? What kind of review is the average person looking for when that person is researching about music he/she doesn't know and have never heard? How come gas prices keep going up in US? All these questions I'd like answered, please. If you may. ------------- 
|
Replies:
Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 16:22
|
It would be nice if people who reviewed albums judged them on the merits of what they are offering, not their own preconceptions, but that may be too much to ask in this day and age.
Personally, I don't review albums in prog metal or post rock, but generally that's because I haven't heard them! ------------- The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning And all the rest is just bullsh*t -Steve Kilbey |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 17:33
|
Basically the number of reviews (and ratings) are too low, so therefor it would be better to have basically just the people who are favourable towards a subgenre to rate those albums, since the downward effect of one or two nay/sayers have too much affect on the albums stats. this off course will have an upward effect on the average rating, but since we know that those ratings come from people who like the subgenre it can be put in persective.
With more reviews and ratings added there comes a time when their needs to be made an adjustement downwards, which of course can come form people who are not as favourable to the subgenre, so in the end it needs to be a balanced package with all the different flavours added to the result. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 17:42
It's all about respect and skills, if one of those two elements fail, one shouldn't allow reviews 
|
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 19:01
|
If I may quote (roughly) the great "T", from a previous post - if there's an album that I see is rated highly & once I've listened to it, I dislike it, I think I should share that with others, just as much as I would share a positive review. I.E. If I don't care for RIO/Avant-Garde, how would I find out about Univers Zero , which I've come to love.? The reviewer who has stumbled upon an album outside their usual fave genres can be a great guide in arousing others' curiosity. Plus, even if I'm an RPI fan, there are bands that I just can't understand their high ranking. SO even within a genre, my taste may be mine only. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 19:14
Good points:
Respect: I don't like a single album by Dream Theater, so my reviews would be disrespectful because I have a prejudice against them.
Skills: I don't understand albums as Thrak or Bbooom by King Crimson, so I don't have the knowledge and skills to make a fair review, I rather avoid them.
But for example, I'm not an expert in Fusion but I like Jean-Luc Ponty albums, so I rate the ones I like and the ones I don't like equally, I don't need to be an expert to know that Aurora or Imaginary Voyage have the touch of the genius and that Tchokola is weak in comparison with the rest of his material, so I believe I have enough knowledge to make a respectful review saying the album is bellow his average.
I never rate RIO albums simply because I'm unable to understand it, I frequently rate Folk albums because I love that genre and I believe I'm able to understand it.
Iván ------------- 
|
erik neuteboom wrote:Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 19:25
| The problem is that if people reviewed only genres they loved every album would have a 4.something rating. If reviewers have natural prejudices against the band (as Ivan does about DT) he or she should not review. However, if someone doesn't like prog metal but gives DT an objective listen, I welcome the review, however negative. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 19:27
cutting through the crap and getting TO the questions hahahha..... the important one at least because this country was stupid enough to elect an oilman for President.. as far as the reviews... quite simple if you buy an album based on the opinion of someone that you don't 'know'... you get what you deserve. As noted in the last flap about my reviews... I don't write them for the site at large. I write them for those people who know what I like.. and what I don't like. Only then would my review of the album really make any difference to the reader. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 20:34
 ^ M-icky, I often read reviews by strangers (in magazines) whose tastes are unknown to me, but which I nonetheless find useful and informative. (i have been led to many fine albums this way.)
Re the larger, original topic, in general I believe one should at least be a potential fan of the type of music in question. Imagine me reviewing for a hip hop or death metal site. All of my reviews would read like this, in essence: "Warning -- more hip hop!" or "More death metal. hate it -- haven't heard any good death metal yet. What's wrong with you people?"
Imagine a food critic who hates all but kraft Dinner and PB sandwiches... Imagine a theatre critic who hates plays.... A book reviewer who hates heroic fantasy reviewing LOTR: "Elves, orcs and hobbits? WTF? Those aren't real! Are you people all on drugs? This is limp-wristed, escapist hippy crap!"
etc.
 (To that degree, broad categories, as we find in record stores, are useful: "This section is Death Metal, hey? Well I won't like any of that!" "Miles Davis is Jazz? Yuck! Where's the Rock section?" )
 So let's assume the reader already knows that DT is a metal band. He doesn't need me to tell him that, or that the lyrics of said form are often doomy/gloomy, the riffs lightning fast, the drums bombastic, etc. I think he'll be best served by a review written by someone who appreciates metal, and who can thus write about it in a more informed, unprejudiced manner. We are prog fans. how much sense would it make for us all to write reviews for a country site, and for the hard-core, line-dancing Shania Twain and George Strait fan to review Pawn Hearts or Free Hand?
So yes, I think one should like at least SOME of the genre in question, to review it, and you should reasonably, potentially be capable of liking the album you are reviewing.
(Would you want a non beer drinker's advice on the best beer to buy? Let a gay guy pick your next dance partner for you?
 )My 10 year-old son's appraisal of the opera i played for him this morning was not a flattering one, but what does he know about opera, Bizet, or Luciano Pavarotti?  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 20:47
|
I think only if it's a famous and generally regarded as accessible album. It's not much good for someone who doesn't like heavy metal to review Meshuggah, but it is useful for someone who's not a metal fan who wants to learn more about prog metal to hear what another non-metal fan thinks about SFAM. Now, if someone absolutely hates metal in any form it's not really useful, but I don't think there are many people who do that. Something that bothers me is when someone gets one album by a band and doesn't like it, but then proceeds to give negative reviews to all the band's other albums--we get it, you don't like them, so why are you bothering to give us your review of what is regarded as their weakest album when we already know you hate their strongest? |
Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 21:07
Yes, I think you nailed it! Four pigs for you! -   - oops one of them seems to have died...Of course I make a habit of reviewing everything I've ever heard, even if I fell asleep while listening to it 5 years ago and havn't heard it since. But, thats because I'm strong (flexes muscles while holding a guitar in one hand and shotgun in the other). ------------- I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 22:11
What an odd response!
Sorry, but I honestly can't tell if you are supporting my post, or mocking it.
or both....  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 01 2007 at 22:15
| I think reserving yourself to groups you like makes it hard for people to figure if they should try a new group that they've yet to hear. For me, that was VDGG. I went through some heavy listening sessions with 5-6 albums of theirs & simply did not find them to my liking, although I could see what others might find attractive. So I figured my reviews would at least balance out the fanatics raves. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 02:59
|
I don't believe in genres - they only confuse matters.
If I've bought an album and feel like reviewing it, then I'll review it.
After all - it's only one opinion among many, and I don't consider myself a genre expert as I don't believe in them.
It's all Progressive Music.
Or not... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 03:29
|
No, because I hate people who only review one specific genre or the like. It's a sign of narrow mindedness. ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 05:01
Nonsense ... just because I like Prog Metal for example does not mean that the albums get a "bonus". Of course the average rating of my PM reviews might be higher than the average rating of reviews for genres which I don't like.
I don't mind negative reviews by biased people, but they should explain their bias in the review (e.g. "I don't like prog metal to start with", or "I don't like any of this band's albums"). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 05:05
But surely having a solid background (e.g. knowing similar albums) improves the quality of a review (its usefulness). For example, if you're a total newbie when it comes to Krautrock and you listen to Tago Mago, you can write a review and describe what you like about it and what not, but you have few points of reference to compare it to. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 07:54
|
For example: should The T review Dream Theater? Should someone that worships DT review DT albums? Will those reviews be fairer or more just towards the music than reviews written by the bands haters?
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 08:02
|
Generally I'd say that a fan of the band is in a better position to write a helpful review for an album than someone who completely dislikes the band or the style. Imagine someone who completely dislikes onions and one day decides to post reviews of dishes which contain onions. These reviews will probably be negative ... and even if that person tries to be objective and to judge the dish from the perspective of someone who likes onions, it would still be a little bit awkward ... and how would that person be able to distinguish good onions from bad onions? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 08:20
Indeed Mike! That's what bugs me a little about open reviewing and some of the younger members (not an attack, BTW
), simply because they lack the references (although I am amazed at how some of our younger members are so  knowledgeable and  well-heard), this is not only a question of width/scope/spectrum, but a question on the duration (the fourth dimension: time) as well. I know this might appear nitpicking, but the numbers of years spent knowing the albums are ever-important at rating/reviewing games.
If I head heard Univers Zero at the age of 15 (wishful thinking here
) and written reviews in the direct future (let's say one year), I might have written all five stars reviews (provided I was ready for that kind of music) regardless of the history and the lack of knowledge of other surrounding bands that made RIO.Instead, I heard UZ when I was 27, being already aware of Henry Cow (which I still have to review, BTW
 ), and wrote my reviews two years ago. This, I feel, gives me the necessary width of view to review them properly.^^Many have written me about how important they felt this aspect of rating music is, and regretting that this is not more common. So I am definitely more at ease at rating 70's music (not necessarily one that I knew back then, because there is still 70's stuff I am discovering nowadays >> Ex: David Sancious) and can give a better rating according to its place in history. Where I am definitely less at ease is on the newer prog (you can definitely believe I am not quite as pleased with those) beit progmetal, post-rock or neo-prog (to which I admit I do have an aural prejudice >> it simply bugs/annoys my ears
  ), but also newer RIO, or Art Rock.------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 08:32
So tell me then: how am I supposed to get these albums from genres i know I dislike? Buy them? i don't think so! Steal them? Risk criminal prosecution for something I don't even want?
And then, even if I do somehow get some of those strongly-disliked albums, I'll have to force myself to listen to them enough times to be able to review them. Why would I do that? What's in it for me?
I think some of you nay-sayers aren't really thinking this through!
And re your sweeping "narrow-mindedness" generalization, surely we all have our individual limits on the types of music we enjoy. Is that really indicative of a serious character flaw, and someone worthy of your hatred? ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 08:39
|
i think people should write reviews on any album they feel they wanted to, regardless the genre... ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 08:41
|
^ since you live in Canada you could simply use Napster. But I think the main point is: Who has time to listen to countless albums he doesn't like? I don't ... and that's also why I don't write many negative reviews. I simple don't listen to albums which I don't like often enough to be qualified to write a review. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 08:44
Complete fanboy or complete disliker is just as worthless or valuable imo, and that was my point. I would have no interest in reading reviews of a young fanboy (not talking about The T) with little musiclistening experience outside of his preferred subgenre, no understanding of for example Progmetal's historical irrelevance (ok, or relevance), progressive-wise. I think we should treasure the few negative reviews, compared to the owerhhelming amount of five stars, we have here. (I'm guilty of giving probably more than 30% fivestars myself) ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 08:52
Is that free? (seriously)
(It is against my moral principles to acquire art without (someone) paying the artist.)
But as you say, Mike, no matter the financial cost, why would we want to force ourselves to repeatedly listen to music we dislike?
We are not paid reviewers!Plus, the resulting review will almost certainly be unfair, uninformed, and of little use to the genre's actual fans.
Now, I gotta go eat a sickenly-sweet breakfast cereal, ruin my coffee with lots of sugar, and listen to some Village People, Shania and 50 Cent, to sponge away my despicable "narrow mindedness." I hope you all appreciate my noble sacrifice at the altar of critical impartiality!
Riiiiiiiiiight..... ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 09:00
Yes, negative reviews themselves are fine (I have several here) but that is not the issue. The issue is the validity/desirability of reviewing music from entire genres you dislike.
All of my metal (or rap, or disco) reviews would be negative. What would be the point in reading them? Shouldn't I just outline my overall tastes once, in my reviewer's profile?
Plus, one would come in for a LOT of nasty abuse here (and rightly so, perhaps) if one continued to savage an entire genre. Who needs all that negativity in their lives?
Should non prog fans review here? What would be the point, pray tell? ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 09:13
They charge a fixed monthly fee (10 EUR in Germany, I don't know about Canada but you can find out at www.napster.cn). Then when you listen to music through Napster they record playback statistics, and in a nutshell your subscription fee is forwarded to the artists/companies you listened to.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 09:21
I get that. IMO they help even out the inexperienced fanboy reviewers, giving fivestars mostly based on lack of knowledge. I think of those just as pointless or valuable, and if you (not you) start removing that kind of negative reviews, you'd have to go through the all the fivestars as well, and remove the blindly worshipping ones. That sounds almost impossible. BTW: I think my strong dislikes (ca. 90% of what I've heard) of the genres Neoprog and Progmetal is valid and based on knowing progs history wery well. If I bothered to take the time, I'd make a one star review of DT or Symphony X based on that. If I think that has a value, why shouldn't I? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 09:30
indeed, I feel the same about my reviewing of Neo. Sometimes I wish I would actually fake reviews to lower the ratings of albums I deem not worthy of the constant fanboy praises. But then, again, I turn over and think, why bother?
BTW, I don't buy or rent records to review something I know I don't like ahead of time, but to discover new music. I have the immense facility to rent albums for a week and study them for the moderate price of 1.5€/album . This may seem expensive to Mike, but I get the booklet along, something lacking in MP3 downloading. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
for those not convinced >> read my post on last page at the bottom I think of that as just as pointless or valuable, and I think if you (not you) start removing that kind of negative reviews, you'd have to go through the all the fivestars as well, and remove the blindlyt worshipping ones as well. That sounds almost impossible. Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 09:31
Because you would risk making a fool of yourself. Suppose you gave one star to Symphony X - Twilight in Olympus or Dream Theater - Awake, would that help prog metal fans decide which album to get next? If you give 1 star to the best albums of the genre, then what about the average and sub par prog metal albums ... would these be 0 or -1 stars then? And finally: I don't think that any prog metal fan would stop listening to prog metal just because people like you bash the genre ... if anything it would strengthen their resolve and confidence in their own taste. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 09:37
|
I'd take that risk. If I hear a one star, and then I hear something even worse, that would be a one star too of course. If I ate the worst meal I ever had, and then tried something that tasted even worse after that, the first meal is still just as bad. Fortunatly for me, you and everyone, I'm not going to waste my time doing any of this. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 09:38
In my opinion this review is the perfect example of a review that should have been deleted immediately after publishing, what a ridiculous crap, it doesn't inform the visiting progheads in a right way. If Prog Archives allows this kind of reviews, we don't take our visiting progheads serious because this kind of reviews lacks respect and skills and it''s only based upon provoking in a very childish way, very poor  !
NEXUS — Perpetuum KarmaReview by http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=8202 - Prophet
Posted Monday, April 30, 2007, 05:43 EST |
Mirar Hacia El Centro" starts with keyboards and heavy guitar. At time 7:00 the song calms down and (male)vocals join in. Note, Mariela Gonzalez is gone and that's sad, because the male voice cannot compete to her, not even close. At 11:30 the song changes again to keyboard oriented instrumental. For an over 17 minutes song it cannot keep up the interest - it doesn't have enough to offer. The song is actually 17 minutes of uninspired organ soloing! 2½ stars.Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 09:50
Just a random example. Is this any better?DREAM THEATER — Train Of ThoughtReview by cdfe.vf
This is a great album!
You have to listen many times to being involved into it!
Supreme technical music; deep lyrics; shred solos; heavy riffs; great
vocals; beautiful progressions; beautiful concept: DT are the best
group on the planet earth.
This album is a step of their continuos progression.
There is no doubt: Train of Thought is exellent!!!
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 10:05
|
Erik, Krister
Those two reviews are very helpful. I know I must avoid both albums. Because the Nexus albums seems bad and the DT seems bad too
But in terms of credibility I prefer the Prophet character. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 10:14
|
OK Sean, you can expect some reviews about Iron Maiden, Dream Theater and The Beatles in the vein of Prophet, you won't be bored for a single second while reading those reviews ... and it is a cheap way to reach my review #1000 !
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 10:16
|
^^ Those two reviews say a lot about the reviewer, but very little about the album. Why do you use them as an excuse to "condemn" the album?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 10:22
|
Of course I am not Mike, I was only joking because if I start to review that way I show no respect and then I contradict myself to an earlier post in this thread
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 10:23
you'd better hurry then
 , 'cause I'm on a rating spree, and closing up on your unfair advantage  ( I have to pay for the albums I review, you get a deal of them free through that mag of yours)BTW, although not well written (probably by a non-native English speaker) the Nexus review, i find gives me a good idea what the album sounds like, and apparently he heard other albums of theirs.
I think you are more upset because he dislike what you try to promote. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 10:26
|
I like reviewing albums that I havn't even heard because I feel moved by the spirit of the Fripp
------------- I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers. |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 10:40
|
Sean, the only reason why I am a bit upset is about that Nexus review by Prophet is that five inspired and enthousiastic Argentine progheads made a wonderufl album that is nailed in a ridiculous way, no band deserves to be treated that way and we should be alert that this too verbally agressive and sarcastic language will not become common, that's my main concern. By the way, the Nexus promoting goes on in my own thread Sean
Here's another example how somebody indulged himself in nailing music in an extremely sarcastic and verbally agressive way, in my opinion this should also have been deleted!
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3070 - RUSH — 2112 Review by http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=3125 - Teaflax (John Thelin)
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 11:05
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
but I think Caress Of Steel is much worse. Yes, this is defintiely where Prog Rush was born, but all the problems of that particular period - and they are legion - are here in full force; heavy-handed experimentation side by side with tired cliché, ludicrously high intellectual ambitions entirely unmet and laughable philosophizing with all the depth of a sun-dried puddle. Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 13:13
|
It's not about accepting other views/opinions Sean, it's about Teaflax his sarcastic way of nailing the Rush album 2112, I hope he is not inspirational for other reviewers because personally I don't like that venomous style of him, too artificial, too much focussed on being sarcastic to the ultimate instead of informing the proghead about the compositions, about the music because that should be the goal of the reviewer, not the self-indulgence in showing how funny it is too nail the progressive hardrock and the ambitious lyrics by Rush on 2112. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 13:18
|
I think it would have been a decent review if he had stuck to slating the album and not the people who like it. However, it is his right to post this review and if people feel it is substandard they can just ignore his future reviews.
I've seen these kind of album assassinations done far better...
|
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 14:58
This really gets to the point. A review is always biased, no matter how hard a person tries to be objective, because art can only be objectively appreciated to a point. After that, it comes down to whether or not it suits your personal taste. If the only people who reviewed bands in a particular genre were people who were fans of the genre, most ratings would be skewed toward very high, making it difficult for someone who doesn't know anything about the genre to decide what albums in it to try. Then again, if the only people who reviewed bands in a particular genre were those who do not enjoy that genre in general, ratings would be skewed toward very low, making it difficult for someone who does (or would) enjoy music from that genre to choose an album to try. I think the solution is moderation (but I doubt that's going to happen) and being aware of the biases of the person writing the review. Someone who enjoys progressive rock music should not give all of the albums they like 5 star ratings - reserve those for the ones you truly think are masterpieces, considering more than just how much you like it. If you love the music, but realize the musicianship isn't actually very skilled (something that's important to most progressive rock), maybe that album should be a 3 or 4 rather than a 5. Or if you're blown away by the skill of the musicians but not by the aesthetics of the song, again maybe that album should not be a 5. The difficult thing about that is, usually when someone hates the way a band sounds they tend to give 1 star, without considering anything other than how much they like it. What about the skill level? Does the singer have a nice voice? Does the song seem to succeed at what it is trying to do? I've seen professional reviews that bash and trash bands for reasons that seemed very strange to me. I recently read (I wish I had the article now, I'll try and find it) a reviewer bash Renaissance's singer, Annie Haslam, calling her an over-annunciating horror. This person clearly did not even consider the timbre of her voice, how on-pitch she was, the very large range of her voice, or the advantages of singing clearly so the lyrics can be understood. I will try to find this reference for you all. Since it's difficult to keep such biases out of reviews, however, the only answer may be to have information about what the reviewer does and does not enjoy. If reviewers are willing to submit this information along with their reviews, or at least have it available to their readers, it will give people some perspective as they read. On a side-note, even people who enjoy prog music often mislead me with their reviews. Dream Theatre has quite a few adoring fans, but I find most of their work to be uninspiring. I recognize that they are fabulous musicians. It's their songwriting that doesn't draw me in most of the time. member_profile.asp?PF=3684&FID=44 - erik neuteboom - I actually found both of the very negative reviews you posted to be mostly valid, though obviously biased. They described pretty clearly what about the albums they didn't like. I thought the 5 star review posted on the previous page was much less credible. The thing is... as long as the reviewer makes it clear what it is that they didn't like, at least they made an effort to be descriptive. Maybe someone who loves organs in music would actually buy the album based on the Prohpet review. Someone who likes intellectual and virtuosic music would think to themselves, "Hey, I like music like that, even if this guy doesn't! I'm going to try that album out." I personally think non-descriptive reviews are much worse than ones that are just negative. I grant you, some of their language choices were extremely poor. I do wish reviewers had a little more moderation, as I was trying to say earlier, but descriptive reviews will suffice when moderation isn't there. Eh enough ramblings from me! Hopefully I made a point... if not... oh well. :) ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 16:44
| Well StarsongAgeless, my point is that Prog Archives wants to be the best progrock site in this Galaxy so the level of the reviews should at least be semi-professional is my opinion. Personally I am fed up with all the cascades of reviews on the homepage in which reviewers are focussed on releasing too subjective frustrations/feelings/emotions rather than informing the visiting progheads about the sound of the album and the level of the compositions. More and more the balance in a review is disturbed because of too subjective motives, in the case of Prophet and Teaflax their venomous language instead of delivering more information about the music. That is what I am concerned about! |
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 16:53
|
I agree, there should be some level of professionalism expected. But also, how would the site police something like that? I suppose members could be banned for writing unprofessional reviews, or just banned from reviewing and not the forum. But that means it's someone's responsibility to go through all those reviews and decide which ones are and are not unprofessional. Sometimes it's easy... sometimes it's not. I would have a hard time deciding whether to remove either of the reviews you posted, since they do make an attempt at describing what it was they did not like. The only thing truly unprofessional about the Teaflax review that I remember is his comment about fans of the album 2112. The Prophet review was very poorly written, but his point was very clear: he thought there was way too much organ, without enough to make the organ part interesting. I suppose I should go read it again now to see if the review was truly a flame or not, but my first impression was that it wasn't. I guess I'll get back to you in a few minutes. Edit: Yeah, there were a few comments: 'grants a short relief from that f...ing keyboard player' and 'listener is so pissed off, he hangs himself' that were definitely inappropriate and I would probably have deleted it if it were my decision. But the rest of the comments were informative if not complete. But rudeness is not the same thing as a negative review. I don't think that's what you are saying, but without people telling us what they don't like about an album, we'd be missing a whole perspective on it... |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 17:10
| I keep on saying that the balance in a review is disturbed when reviewers like Prophet and Teaflax are allowed to releases some venomous language, rather than describing the music. Of course they are allowed to tell what they don't like but looking at both reviews there is a lot of unpleasant language rather than descriptive information about the compositions, that's what I am pointing at and concerned about. |
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 17:23
|
I do realize that's what you're concerned about, I just don't see much of what you're concerned about in the Teaflax review. I thought he/she was very descriptive, just negative. The only thing I find objectionable in it is the careless and baseless description of the fans as, 'Sci Fi-obsessed pimply teenage fanboy[s]'. There's no cursing, and no insults directed toward Rush themselves - the reviewer makes it clear that it's this album in particular they don't like from Rush. It just seems to me like you're including things in the 'venemous' language category that are just 'negative' language to me. Do you happen to know of a 1-star review that you consider to not have venemous language in it? I think the difference between us may just be where we draw the line between negative and unacceptable. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 17:28
You're saying that if you know nothing about it you shouldn't write about it because your reviews will be useless?
I know, I twisted it a bit - but not much ,in fairness.
Before writing about Prog Rock here, I'd only written about it as part of a dissertation - which is hardly a review - and hence I can hardly call myself an expert - let alone in any so-called subgenre.
I don't know much about Tago Mago - or Monster Movie, come to that - but I reviewed the latter as I heard it, not in respect to any class of music, but for what it is in relation to how I personally perceive Progressive Rock.
Is is a useless review - or do I give you some idea of a) what I think of it and b) what it might actually be like to listen to?
I hope the answer is the latter two, but the point is, it's emphatically NOT written by genre, and nor am I a Krautrock expert.
I think that reviews should be written by people who have bothered to find out something about the music they are listening to - it doesn't have to be a dissertation, just something that shows understanding of the music.
Taste will always rear its head, but if the reviewer doesn't understand the music in any way, then the review becomes a waste of space. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 17:32
|
StarsongAgeless, we simply disagree about where to draw the line between negative and unacceptable, indeed and now I go to sleep, in Holland it's bedtime |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 17:50
Only for some! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
|
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 19:01
Hahaha. :) Goodnight member_profile.asp?PF=3684&FID=44 - erik neuteboom . Yep we just disagree on where to draw the line. I do have to say, even though I'm not crazy about 2112, I found that review to be ridiculous even though it didn't fit into my definition of unacceptable! Certif1ed as usual makes great points. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 20:17
A great helpful and negative review. Everyone who's not a fan of Rush, can see that. And if I had to choose between the DT or the Nexus review on which one I'd rather see deleted, I'd go for the DT-fanboy. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 20:32
|
I must agree that all reviews giving an opinion (however biased) should
be accepted, so long as they do not insult the band, its music, or its
fans through needless name calling or stereotyping. However, it
is perfectly valid for someone to express extreme dislike for a band
and/or its music, but this only helpful when it is clearly explained
why. Some people are just too sensitive for the hard life of Prog Rock Reviews ------------- I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 21:57
I only find the first sentence of the Rush review to be objectionable. And really just because of its' denigrating description of the sort of person the reviewer thinks would be "dumb" enough to like this music. The rest, while sarcastic, even caustic, is a valid review. I completely disagree with it, but I just wish he had left out the pimply teenage fanboy reference. That just makes the rest of the critique sound like someone with a hidden agenda & a bad case of pettiness. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 02 2007 at 23:37
It's actually too late, as I've reviewed all of their albums, and you can go check, the fanboyism that I'm so unfairly accused of isn't present there.... And I really think you CAN write fair reviews even about bands you love or despise.... I've done it myself, and most good reviewers also do it. About the more just part, I think reviews would be more just if they were written by a totally impartial person, but that's impossible in music, or it would have to be an a-musical person, and who would care about what he would have to say anyway? -------------
|
Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 00:25
|
I think that only official members of The Intelligent Peoples Thread should be allowed to give reviews
------------- I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers. |
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 01:33
Shouldn't that be people's, not peoples?  I couldn't help myself.... not in conjunction with 'The Intelligent People's Thread'. Of course, now you know I have to find this thread and take a look at its subject heading! :) I just read a bunch of Dream Theater reviews. There were an overpowering number of 5-star reviews, but I found the not-5-star ones to be a bit more helpful for me, so far. ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 01:57
Agreed. ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 04:28
The Karl Evil Nein syndrome, right???
Even a good Rush
 fan can see that this negative review is valid.
Thanks ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 04:42
So, I guess we agree then? If we're going to keep the fanboy ones, we must also keep the reviews that dismisses whole genres. I just twisted your sentences around to prove that point. BTW: I apologize for my crap english spelling all over this thread. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 05:22
I genuinely believe that most of the negative reviewers are closer to having a relevance and some truth to them, than the 'OMG! best band on the planet!!' ones. Both examples here proves that Erik's just a fan taking offence on behalf of a band he loves, and gets upset that five inspired and enthousiastic Argentine progheads are getting butchered. Probably because Erik's a nice and caring person, but even if the Nexus review is a quite bad one, I've seen much worse in the blind follower fan-end of the scale. (I can't believe you'd want Teaflax' review deleted, Erik. Your reaction is the best example of lack of objectivety here) There are albums I loathe, I'd feel my most important job would be to warn people that these are just hyped copycats, or worthless if you've passed your teens mentally. I'd certainly think its mine, and everyone's right to inform that. Disliking a band you like, is not the nessecerely disliking you. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 05:37
|
^ bashing a band (or album) which is commonly referred to as a masterpiece or "just" an excellent album can be quite disrespectful. I'm just saying that when you post a review which is in contradiction to a large number of other reviews (not just by fanboys but also by respected collabs) then circumstances suggest that you might be wrong in pointing out that it's a bad album "generally speaking". It's a bad album for you, but not for most other reviewers ... personally I'm always interested in such reviews (which represent minority opinions), but only if they're respectful of the fact that most people disagree. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 05:52
Generally when I review an highly rated album lowly, I usually state that I am in a minority and will take even greater care at making my point valid and come across correctly. I hope anyway!! But I find doing it with humour actually can make the point across better or easier but not always, because some ultra-fans can be completely humourless!! >> fanboyism galore------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 06:03
|
^ especially this type of humour can come across as being very disrespectful. Maybe you'd be also offended if someone bashed one of your "secret masterpieces" saying things like "how can people give this more than 2 stars ... those damn fanboys make me sick!". I think we should simply stop second-guessing the reasons people might have for their ratings. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 06:22
... |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 06:24
|
Writing stuff like: 'DT is the best band on the planet!'. Now what I call that's really disrespectful. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 06:24
? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 06:25
|
@Rocktopus: which doesn't mean that you should be equally disrespectful, does it?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 06:26
Read your own words. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 06:27
|
Edit: Mike ^Dunno. Have to think a while about that one. It probably means I should, but I'm too nice. Visitor: What? Except for the extra the, that sneaked its way in, I'm pleased with myself. Another edit: and spelling necessarily wrong, you nitpicker. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 06:39
|
Let me put it this way.
I'd feel my most important job would be to warn people who contradict themselves, even when they seem to act in good faith. I'd certainly think it's mine, and everyone's right to inform that. EDIT: Spelling, as always. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 06:43
|
Have to say, some of the things Hugues doesn't like- Curved Air, Flower Kings, some Strawbs/Camel albums, Fruupp etc.- that I really do, I do still find the reviews amusing. They are not as stand-offish in terms of demeanour.
I have no problem with bad reviews by any means, but I strongly dislike confrontational/attitude-laden bad reviews which are written to provoke a knee-jerk reaction and are borderline insulting. The music is all that matters, not the listening demographic and for me, some reviews here cross the line.
Likewise, I don't like fanboy 5 star reviews which don't really justify the rating, unless you count a sentence like 'band X are the best band ever and this is the best album they've ever done' as justification. I have posted here before about disliking 'impulse' 5 star reviews as well, I do not understand how an album can be rated so highly immediately.
I've seen some long-time collabs express disillusionment about their reviews being lost amongst both of these type of reviews, and I sympathise totally.
|
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 07:11
|
My critical comments about the review by Teaflax (2112 by Rush) and Prophet (Perpetuum Karma by Nexus) have nothing to do with a lack of objectivity, I only took these reviews as an example because I know the music very well. More and more this site delivers reviews in which reviewers use very unpleasant, provoking, degrading and other verbally agressive language, I would like to emphasize that if we take this for granted gradually we accept that it's normal to use that language. And in my opinion reviews should be about music and not a showcase for sarcastic and venomous comments that tell more about the reviewer than about the music. I can imagine that people don't mind about the things that bothers me, I am aware that I am a minority in this thread but that doesn't keep me from saying that the reviews by Teaflax and Prophet contain sentences that are too sarcastic and degrading and therefore should be deleted, in my opinion. In the past I have also been rude and verbally agressive in some posts (because I was too frustrated about certain things), I had no problem with deleting my posts because I accept that borders should be guarded. The problem is that the borders vary personally and that in my opinion it has become quite popular to react venomous and verbally agressive, especially on The Forum but also on the homepage in reviews. I don't like that development, I am concerned about it but it's up to the moderators where the borders are.
|
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 09:20
 for the whole post, not only the bolded section.
|
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 09:42
|
I think that a non-fan of a genre can give some valuable insight to
others. For example, I don't like prog-metal as a rule, but I stumbled
upon Room V by Shadow gallery and listened to it a lot, and while I
don't love it, I was able to recognize a quality piece of porg-metal
and I think my review of it is fair, and perhaps more helpful to
outsiders than the wealth of five star reviews provided by fans of the
genre.
------------- 
|
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 14:47
If I were, for example, to think that a highly acclaimed and incredibly well-selling album by Evanescence or Coldplay was bad, and gave it a poor rating and negative review, would that be disrespectful? What about a symphony by Mozart, or a classic like Thick as a Brick? Where can a line be drawn, if anywhere? Just because a lot of people (including critics and reviewers) like something, or because something is a turning point for a type of music, doesn't mean everyone will like it. I don't think they should have to step on eggshells and pad their reviews with apologies or excuses. The people who love it don't need to apologize or excuse themselves to the rest of humanity. So why should those who dislike something downplay their opinions, even if they're in the minority? My take on this is that reviewers should be respectful of each other by not commenting on other reviewers at all. Say what you think, back it up with descriptions of the music, and let the readers sort out whether they think your taste is similar to theirs or not. That doesn't mean I think a reviewer should be vulgar, or say things like, 'this band is stupid, no one should ever listen to them' in their review. Rather, I think it is just helpful to see the different perspectives people have when they listen to the same music. EDIT: Bashing any album is disrespectful, but there's a difference between bashing and a negative review. 
Even someone who is a fan of Rush (me) can see that. :P I don't agree with the review, but I think it's a helpful and descriptive review, overall. ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 15:28
|
^ There's a fine line between bashing and merely voicing a negative opinion ... of couse there's no need to be 100% politically correct all the time, but it's also wrong to go totally over the top with sarcasm and insults. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 03 2007 at 16:51
Agreed. But personally, I don't think someone should have to apologize or excuse themselves because their review is negative. It makes it seem like negative reviews are less valid than positive ones. EDIT: Not to say that if someone does regularly apologize for their negative reviews, that they should stop... but I also don't think it should be a requirement. The difference between bashing and a negative review is not whether a person apologized for their opinion. It's a lot harder to define than that. A person might conceivably apologize for their review or admit that other people love the stuff, but still have written a review full of bashing. |
Posted By: ZowieZiggy
Date Posted: May 05 2007 at 08:04
|
I think that the purpose of PA is to provide the readers with objective and, if possible, knowledgeable opinion. I have mentioned in one of my review for a Mostly Autumn record, that prog-folk is not my favorite genre. But this does not prevent me of liking some of their work and tell PA readers how I feel about it. Just as a music fan, not as a professional journalist specialized in a sub-genre.
It is like reviewing only your favourite albums. What's the point ? To give them all five stars ? This is one of the main reasons why I have decided to review almost the entire catalogue of a band when I have the opportunity to do so. OK, I suffer some times but I do not not think it is unfair to tell that you that I do not like "Under Wraps" at all even if Tull is one of my (many) favourite band.
One thing also annoys me at times. It is the way some bands are categorized. Let's take Santana for instance. Jazz-rock / Fusion ! If you have read some of my Santana reviews, you know that I like the band an awful lot. Since 1971. To me Santana is Latin-rock. Period. Even if some albums do have a jazzy mood, it does not make Santana a jazz band IMO. But do not ask me where should Santana being listed.
To summarize, I would say that if a reviewer expresses his opinion in a fair and objective way, he is credible. Whether he's an expert or not, this is another topic. But as far as I know, one does not need a special degree to be able to write his opinion on PA.
I hope it will remain so,
Cheers. ------------- ZowieZiggy |
Posted By: StarsongAgeless
Date Posted: May 08 2007 at 14:50
|
Well said, ZowieZiggy, at least I think so! I don't know if I have the patience to purposefully review the entire catalogue of a band... kudos to you. Fair is important, and I think an attempt at being objective is good, although I suspect it is hard for any reviewer to have a truly objective article, since at least part of it probably has to do with whether or not he enjoyed listening to the music. But hey if someone is successful at that, more power to them... ------------- Check out the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=71 - Unsigned Bands section! "Like the time I ran away, and turned around and you were standing close to me." Yes' Awaken |