The FIRST sidelong song
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Topic: The FIRST sidelong song
Posted By: unclemeat69
Subject: The FIRST sidelong song
Date Posted: April 27 2007 at 16:09
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There have been many long epics written and released over the decades,
I am just wondering what would be the very FIRST of the all? For clarity, any song that is extended simply by long improvisational solos is not what I'm looking for (so live version of Creamsongs are out). But what is the very first occurence of a fully composed song of say 17+ minutes. In Held Twas In I by Procol Harum is clearly an early example, are there any earlier examples, or later examples where it feels less like a suite and more like a song that just happens to be so darn long? ------------- Follow your bliss |
Replies:
Posted By: Nao/Gilles
Date Posted: April 27 2007 at 17:18
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Well, I was going to post and say In Held 'twas in I, but you said it before me ;)
I don't see any occurrence of a side-long song before that. Of course, one could always argue that side-long songs have been around since classical music was born :) ------------- http://fox.cyna.fr/"> 
French-speaking blog, reviews and streaming samples |
Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: April 27 2007 at 17:19
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In-a- Gadda-di-Vida, Iron Butterflys 17 min plus opus from 68 comes to mind. ------------- Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan ringed by ants and musing over man. |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: April 27 2007 at 17:25
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Return of the Son of Monster Magnet on Freak Out ('66)is the whole side, I think, although I'm not sure. It's 12 minutes. |
Posted By: the icon of sin
Date Posted: April 27 2007 at 20:01
That's of course not the normal side-filling length, but "Freak Out!" has a really strange overall time...something like 60 minutes. I don't know how Zappa did it - either he used some insane studio engineering (more so than Genesis did) or he made it a double album and missed out a side of vinyl. Which isn't like him. |
Ghandi 2 wrote:Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: April 27 2007 at 21:14
It was a double album (in fact, the first rock double album, to the best of my knowledge), but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freak_Out!#Track_listing - each side is unusually short . So technically Monster Magnet is the first side-long, even though it's significantly shorter than the usual side length.
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Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: April 27 2007 at 21:25
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I allready posted this in some threads about early epics, but
The Collectors - What Love (Suite) of 1968 which is 19:15 is a side long epic which was to my knowledge released before "In Twas Held In I"
link: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=10664 - http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=10664
------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 03:25
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^and Love's "Da Capo" album of 1967 has the 19-minute, side-long track "Revelations", although to say it's fully composed, as with "In-A-Gadda..." is a bit generous. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 06:20
| Side-long (or even album-long) suites are NOT a rock invention. The great Duke Ellington was already into such suites in the 1950s. Charles Mingus and John Coltrane followed suit in the early 1960s. You might say these guys invented the concept album. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 06:36
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I have one by a band called The Seeds from 1967 called 'Up In Her Room' which is some 15 minutes in its complete form, but I'm not sure whether it was issued like this originally- there has been an edited version of it released. It was on their 2nd album 'A Web Of Sound'.
Without wishing to be too pedantic, 'In Held Twas In I' is not technically a side-long track, AFAIK. On the vinyls I had (reissues), I THINK the track 'Magdalene My Regal Zonophone' precedes it on the second side of the album. The same applies to 'Foxtrot', which has 'Horizons' before 'Supper's Ready', really.
As for the Zappa track, it's an oddity (musically too- not my fave track of his, you could say) as there have been varying issues of the album. I once had a copy of the original UK vinyl and 'Monster Magnet' wasn't even on it, it was a single disc version with the slightly more accessible tracks included. I'm not sure when the album was first released in full form in the UK...
One of the few of this ilk without this pedanticism I can think of is Bob Dylan's 'Sad Eyed Lady Of The Lowlands' which I believe took up a whole vinyl side of 'Blonde And Blonde' when released in 1966. According to Wikipedia it was released before Freak Out, so this MIGHT be the first of the rock albums (at least, of the ones I own) to feature a side long track. However, it is even shorter than '...Monster Magnet'..
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 06:59
Guess nobody thinks that, and its probably not the answer he's looking for, fuxi. Brahms Alto Rhapsodie Mahler Das Lied von Der Erde mm, are sidelong concepts made before the sidelong could possibly be invented. Lee Hazelwood's Trouble is a Lonesome Town from '63 is a fantastic, full concept album, but divided into shorter tracks. Does that count? All about the town trouble, and its citicens. Hangs much more together than most prog concepts. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 07:25
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Metamatic Ritual (13:56) 1962 Alan
Raga (32:09) recorded 1964 / released 1968 Seventh Sons “Raga (4 AM at Frank’s)” Desolation Row (11:24) 1965 Bob Dylan “Highway 61 Revisited” Sad Eyed Lady of the East-West (13:18) 1966 The Paul Butterfield Blues Band “East-West” Going Home (11:14) 1966 The Rolling Stones “Aftermath” The Return Of The Son Of Monster Magnet (12:17) 1966 Frank Zappa “Freak out!” The End (11:35) 1967 The Doors “The Doors” Interstellar Overdrive (16:46) 1967? Pink Floyd “Tonite let’s all make love in Nick's Boogie (11:50) recorded 1967 / released 1999 Pink Floyd “Pink Floyd London 1966-1967” Revelation (18:56) 1967 Love “Da Capo” When The Music's Over (11:00) 1967 The Doors “Strange Days” Viola Lee Blues (10:01) 1967 The Grateful Dead “The Grateful Dead” In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida (17:05) 1967 Iron Butterfly "In-a-Gadda-da-Vida" How Suite It Is (12:16) 1967 Jefferson Airplane “After Bathing At Baxter’s”. The Progress Suite (25:) 1967 Time has come today (11:) 1967 The Chamber Brothers. Fantasy (10:13) 1967 Fifty Foot Hose "Cauldron". Mass In F Minor (26:?) 1967 Electric Prunes. Up In Her Room (14:44) 1967 The Seeds "A Web of Sound".
In held Twas in I (17:31) 1968 Procol Harum “Shine on Brightly” The Fool (12:07) 1968 Quicksilver Messenger Service "Quicksilver Messenger Service".
I Put My Hands On Your Shoulder (13:36) 1968 Groep 1850 "Agemo's Trip To Mother Earth".
1983...Merman I Should Turn To Be (13:46) 1068 The Jimi Hendrix Experience "Electric Ladyland".
Voodoo Child (15:05) 1968 The Jimi Hendrix Experience "Electric Ladyland".
Sister Ray (17:00) 1968 The Velvet Underground "White Light / White Heat".
River deep, Mountain high (10:12) 1968 Deep Purple “Book of Taliesyn” In the Stable of the Sphinx (11:10) recorded 1968 / released 2004 East Of Eden ”Mercator Projected” Ars Longa Vita Brevis suite (19.26) November 1968 The Nice “Ars Longa Vita Brevis” What Love (Suite) (19:15) 1968 The Collectors. Lumpy Gravy (31:39) 1968 Frank Zappa “Lumpy Gravy”. Dark Star (?:?) 1968 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21669&PN=2# - - Grateful - Dead "Two From The Vault".
Fried Neckbones (10:10) recorded 1968 / released 1997 Santana "Live At The Fillmore 1968"
Soul Sacrifice (14:30) recorded 1968 / released 1997 Santana "Live At The Fillmore 1968"
Freeway (30:15) recorded 1968 / released 1997 Santana "Live At The Fillmore 1968" |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 08:06
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To my knowledge (see previous post) the first 17 min + rock/pop/blues/folk song was one of the following: Raga (32:09) recorded 1964 / released 1968 Seventh Sons “Raga (4 AM at Frank’s)” Revelation (18:56) 1967 Love “Da Capo” In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida (17:05) 1967 Iron Butterfly "In-a-Gadda-da-Vida" The Progress Suite (25:) 1967 I find the above more like an inspiration for the first full-blown symhonic prog suites that set the standard:
Ars Longa Vita Brevis suite (19.26) November 1968 The Nice “Ars Longa Vita Brevis”. |
Posted By: Man Erg
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 08:30
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Sandy Bull - Blend.
22mins from Fantasias for Guitar and Banjo (1963) ------------- 
Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 09:19
True, but Duke Ellington or John Coltrane's efforts were definitely intended as 20 or 40 minute RECORDS, or record sides. |
Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 12:38
It's indeed not the answer I'm looking for. As for the examples given here: Monster Magnet (the FZ song) is more like a spontaneous freak-out in the studio (as in free-form group-improvisation) rather than a song. In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida (or more likely 'In the garden of Eden' as the totally-stoned singer is probably trying to sing) feels more like a 3-4 minute song that breaks down into a jam that the band is desperately trying (unsuccesfully0 to finish. As for conceptalbums: every rock-n-roll albums concentrating on either cars, girls or dancing/music could be seen as a conceptalbum, besides Miles Ahead (Miles with Gil Evans) was a conceptalbum or 40 minute suite intended to be in continous play rather than 2 sides, In regard of the classical stuff: any opera is one piece of music with sme significant duration, the old JS Bach's Passions are similar in feel and construction. However, I was actually looking for 18+ minutes songs that are thoroughly composed, well constructed non-stop pieces of music (such as: Supper's ready, plague of lighthouse keepers, In Held or less suite-like: CTTE, MDK, TAAB) Are there any earlier examples than In Held of such type compositions in (prog)rock? ------------- Follow your bliss |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 13:11
Brahms Alto Rhapsodie has all that you're looking for. It actually reminds me of A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers. Great existential, pessimistic lyrics too. A poem by Goethe. The whole rhapsodie lasts for something like 17-18 minutes.
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 16:22
Well, I'm trying to find what the first fully composed prog-epic was. So, even if it was a lousy piece of crap, it should be admired at the very least as the first attempt of such a thing, I do understand that the classical influence as its BIG STAMP all over it. ------------- Follow your bliss |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: April 29 2007 at 07:59
No!
You have slowly been imposing more and more restraints. Subject to your recent requirements, the answer is no. Considering rock was possibly introduced in 1966 with Beatles' Revolver, the limits are now pretty narrow.
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Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: April 29 2007 at 12:41
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[/QUOTE]
No!
You have slowly been imposing more and more restraints. Subject to
your recent requirements, the answer is no. Considering rock was
possibly introduced in 1966 with Beatles' Revolver, the limits are now
pretty narrow. [/QUOTE]I don't think I have been imposing more and more restrictions, as my origingal question was about the first ever fully composed prog-rock songs, which automatically rules out both free-form jams and classical music, I wanted too know if In Held was the first song of its kind and apparently it is, obviously there have been earlier examples of longer songs, but those songs are long because of a large amount of improvisation or jamming endlessly over a drone, that wasn't what I was looking for, as Rocktopus remarked. So I guess the answer to my question is either In Held or else What Love (Suite) by The Collectors.  Thanks everybody!!! ------------- Follow your bliss |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: April 30 2007 at 04:40
....or Ars Longa Vita Brevis by The Nice.
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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: May 05 2007 at 15:36
or The Progress Suite by Chad Stuart and Jeremy Clyde, which is a five-part psychedelic-symphonic-folkish-avantgarde-rock (prog) suite with 26:46 from 1967 with the main theme being a critic about the progress in the modern world.
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