The truth about the TOP 100 ranking
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36126
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 05:07
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The truth about the TOP 100 ranking
Posted By: akin
Subject: The truth about the TOP 100 ranking
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 17:04
| "The album ranking algorithm is an attempt at finding a balance between quality (average rating) and popularity (number of ratings) . If popularity was not considered at all the top of the chart would be cluttered with hundreds of obscure albums with only one or two 5 star reviews. If quality was not considered the top of the chart would essentially show the most most reviewed albums. In order to find a balance between those two extremes the parameters of the algorithm were configured so that the resulting chart matches the expectations of the typical prog expert (your faithful admins and collabs). For example, the top 10 should feature albums which are considered to be the best prog albums of all time - like Close to the Edge, Selling England by the Pound or ItCotCK. Of course there are some experts who believe that the true masterpieces are not among these most popular albums ... "hidden gems" like Gentle Giant - Octopus, CAN - Ege Bamyasi, Magma - Mekanik Destruktiv Kommandoh, Van der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts ... these are albums with high average ratings (quality) but fewer reviews (popularity) than the widely known albums. But you can't please everybody, and especially for newbies the more popular albums are a good starting point for exploring metal ... save the best for last!" |
Replies:
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 17:08
^ this is a statement which I made in another, non-public thread ... akin thinks it is offensive and might cause some kind of controversy if made available to the public. So I allowed him to quote it ... in case any of you are wondering why this thread exists, and why the first post is in quotes.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
|
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 17:21
| I think its a pretty good algorithm. However, it would be even better if you could choose the emphasis, ratings or popularity. But maybe that's too much work for the end result. |
Posted By: martinn
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 17:23
Yes, so...?
------------- 
|
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 17:35
 I hope that word in bold is a mistake???? Or is this the algorithm from progtology.com? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
akin wrote:Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 17:36
Ehm... yeah, so?  ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 17:56
It's a mistake ... I wrote that text in a hurry. Of course it should say "prog" instead of "metal" ...  BTW: If you think that there's too much metal and not enough rock on PROGtology.com ... submit some ratings to even it out!  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 18:00
|
I dont see why so many people with the rating system.
I personally think that it's the perfect balance, neutralize popularity with quality. What can go wrong? ------------- Beauty will save the world. 
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 18:05
|
This is the problem: Some people get angry because some of their favorite albums have higher average ratings than CttE or the other albums in the top 10 (20, 50, 100 etc) but fewer ratings/reviews ... so they're demanding that the weight of the popularity (number of ratings) is reduced because they think this makes the algorithm more "fair". ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 18:09
|
Yeah but you can combat that arguement with something that was already said. For a prog "newbie", the exposure to the really popular albums will lead to exploration and eventually ratings/reviews to the lesser-known albums.
The thing that bothers me though, is that the people that think the lesser-known albums dont get enough ratings and complain about it never seem to write reviews of their own  ------------- Beauty will save the world.
|
Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 18:17
Yeah, I want to know too.
|
Posted By: proghairfunk
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 20:08
| out of curiosity, what is the actual formula for the alogirithem, so i can see how much emphasis is placed on either part. |
Posted By: lightbulb_son
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 20:14
 Youch that was quite a burn. I personally love progtology.com. They have a good balance IMO, although at times its a tad too prog-metal heavy.------------- When the world is sick Can't no one be well But I dreamt we were all beautiful and strong 
|
Posted By: lightbulb_son
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 20:16
|
In all honesty, I don't pay much attention to the top 100 anymore. Really guys, it's not a big deal. If you want to change anything, then submit more reviews.
I do think the algorithm should hold quality over popularity, but thats just my opinion. ------------- When the world is sick Can't no one be well But I dreamt we were all beautiful and strong
|
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 20:36
|
I think the algorithm is nigh on perfect, and I want to publicly thank those involved. It's all in how you use it, really. The top albums are the best' popular' prog albums; others further down the track are either popular albums on which opinion is divided, or more obscure albums beloved of fans. What tends to happen, I've observed, is that as an obscure album gets noticed and more people acquire it, the average rating gradually drops and its position stays about the same. This seems to be as the album moves out of the ambit of fans only and into the general prog consciousness.
Lotsa fun and not a life or death issue. |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 21:51
|
I don't understand why anybody gives a crap about the top 100. If you love an album, then you love an album. Does it really matter that it isn't on the list some computer algorithm spit out?
-------------   |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: March 28 2007 at 21:56
I agree. I don't mind the top 100, but the more important thing is that you like the album. Rankings don't necessarily mean anything other than that the majority of people like these albums. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 01:02
| Part of the usefulness of this site is to find NEW music. The rankings help with that. That's why people ought to give a crap. It's not so you can feel all superior - or inferior - about the music you like. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 01:51
| The top of the charts is pretty much as I would expect. It feels right so I'm happy.Obviously I would happier if my favourite album (Brain Salad Surgery) was higher but I have to factor in others opinions who don't share my enthusiasm.Hence its low placing (and other ELP albums) I suppose. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 02:08
|
Honestly I consider the Top 100 only as a reference for how to start a decent Prog colection.
I believe that Foxtrot is incredibly superior to SEBTP and Relayer is at least in the level of CTTE, but at the end there's no problem, being that it's oonly a reference.
Good list though despite some slight disagreements but taste is personal.
Iván ------------- 
|
Posted By: FruMp
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 05:07
|
I think the prog algorthim is a damn good one, I'm sure anyone who has been into prog for a decent amount of time can look at the top 10 and be happy that it's accurate (even though it's subjective).
------------- 
|
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 07:35
I rarely visit progtology.com, and of course I understood that the word 'metal' was a mistake. I think the algorithm is just fine, and I don't look at the top 100 that often either. I used when I joined PA less than a year ago, but at some point you find other (more taste specific) ways to find new items to collect. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 08:39
What else could a CAN fan say?
 |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 08:47
|
Well, for those who doesn't bother about the TOP 100 (like me for example), there is no problem. The way the ranking is made was shown to those who really bother about the TOP 100. Those who say the formula is accurate are talking nonsense unless they say it is accurate to represent something, and it is stated that the formula is accurate to show these albums mentioned in the first post in the 1st places, not accurate to describe the general preferences about prog. I think this post is useful enough to show people who check the TOP 100 what represents the TOP 100, so if they are expecting something different now they are not mistaken and they don't need to waste their times complaining of the band positions in the TOP 100. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 09:06
|
"accurate to describe the
general preferences about prog": Isn't this a contradiction in terms? "General preferences" can only mean a compromise between the personal preferences of all the users, which is inherently in-accurate.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 09:10
It is not, an election is to decide the general preferences about the candidates of the people of a country and the system is recognized as the fairest ever made. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 09:24
|
^ so are you suggesting that we conduct a poll about the constants of the algorithm?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 14:58
|
My algorithm will work better:
rate*numberofreviews*numberoftimesLaBriesingsonalbum - numberoftimesKayoDotappearsonalbum/ overall rating.
 ------------- 
|
Posted By: Firepuck
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 15:28
"I want to publicly thank those involved" - ME TOO!!!
 "the average rating gradually drops and its position stays about the same" - I have noticed this phenomenon also. ------------- Kryten : "'Pub'? Ah yes, A meeting place where humans attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks." |
Posted By: Firepuck
Date Posted: March 29 2007 at 15:37
"Part of the usefulness of this site is to find NEW music" - Absolutely, without this site (as I have mentioned before) I would never have gotten back into prog. To me prog stopped somewhere around 1980 when I stopped buying albums (at about the 1500 count - I figured I had enough of the music I love to last the rest of my life). Since finding this site a couple of years ago I have discovered new newer bands (i.e. Porcupine Tree), new older bands (i.e. Focus), new genres (i.e. post rock - GYBE) and most importantly - a new love for progressive music.
------------- Kryten : "'Pub'? Ah yes, A meeting place where humans attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks." |
Posted By: martinn
Date Posted: March 31 2007 at 22:33
I really wasn't interested in hearing Kayo Dot although it has been named Progarchives Album of the Year, but your obsession with it is making me curious. I may check it out now.  -------------
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 31 2007 at 23:20
I'm not really obsessed...i found the album atrocious but many people like it a lot and I just keep coming after it as a kind of very mature and grown-up vendetta for all the cheap shots agains The Dream... -------------
|
Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: March 31 2007 at 23:23
T, I can't wait for the day when Toby Driver registers on the forums and starts reading this stuff, then comes and kicks yer arse ------------- Beauty will save the world.
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 31 2007 at 23:24
i don't know who he is... The singer? Well, the way he wails and screams and yells in the album, he shouldn't be a problem to deal with... I mean, the guy's clearly depressed and insane, what challenege would that be??? -------------
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: April 05 2007 at 13:50
|
AM I to understand that some have hit it on the dot that some are KO'd from an overexposure or feel overrun by reviews of a certain recent release ? And one extra point here, doesn't Donald Trump own the trademark to the "Truth" ? P.S. Is this starting to sound like a soap opera where the plot seems to progress very slowly ? Already April, & we've yet to get over the last year's "polled" pantheon of prog perfection. Could we start a thread arguing that the choices that were voted top ten in 2005 are not deserving of that accolade ? Should we re-visit the top 100 ranking & dissect it to ensure no one has been "goosing" up their fave artist to make sure they out rank other groups who they dislike ? Heck , I gave VDGG albums 3 stars just to be nice, & now I think myself dishonest, because I simply could not find more than one song on 7 of their so-called top rated albums that I actually liked. So I thought I'd at least recognise that they have a sizeable following. And that was mainly because it sounds like another favourite of mine - A Whiter Shade Of Pale ! SO if possible, I'd like to request that my all my VDGG be deleted, so I can restate them to better reflect my actual opinion of them. I mean, I wouldn't want to skew the results of this ranking. That & having gone over the list, I notice that Albums I actually love are behind these VDGG releases, & I wonder if my over-rating just to be nice makes the difference in who comes in at # 83 instead of # 92. Not that I'm accusing anyone else of purposely rating an album highly to boost their idol, or dismissing another group's album with a low (say one star) rating so as to bring down a band they abhor. Actually, that may be more honest than trying to be objective. I mean, in the sense of having listened to an album & disliked it, make sure you sign in & rate it to reflect its' one star value in your eyes. Just might be that too many of us just go in for our faves. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 06 2007 at 06:33
beats Dream Theater polls anyday ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: April 06 2007 at 22:00
That & the constant polls re : Phil Collins |