Transferring Vinyl
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3476
Printed Date: November 21 2024 at 18:45
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Transferring Vinyl
Posted By: Aaron
Subject: Transferring Vinyl
Date Posted: February 06 2005 at 02:48
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has anyone done this? what software is best? is there a good site to tell me how to do it? Aaron |
Replies:
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: February 06 2005 at 02:54
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3350&a mp;PN=0&TPN=2 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3350&a mp;a mp;PN=0&TPN=2
Reed Lover has explained it somewhat, I don't understand it, but scroll down somewhere on the bottom of the page. Something with a cable to your amp and nero software ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 06 2005 at 14:25
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Pretty simple. I use a thing by Creative Labs called a Digital Music LX - this is basically a little external USB soundcard with phono ins and outs You plug it into the USB port on your computer then plug the phono outs from your hi-fi amplifier or your phono-stage into the ins on the Creative LX and fire up your turntable (you can monitor via headphones on the LX or take a line from the LX's outs back to your amplifier/phono stage) The software is simple to use and offers you the option of removing all the crackles and pops from the vinyl via a clean-up facility. It also offers a de-noiser to remove hiss but this seems to me to just chop off the high end, so I don't use it. The de-clicker is excellent though. It also comes with basic soundwave editor software so you can record a whole side of vinyl and then cut and past the various tracks to create track breaks and you can clean up the intros and outros with fades or just be deleting the noise and inserting brief silences. It is very, very simple and if your tunrtable is up to it then you can achieve really good results. It's a real case of sh** in, sh** out. If you're signal is rubbish, your cartridge destroyed or your vinyl in terrible repair then you'll still hear that. If you have a good set-up and pretty clean vinyl then it's a winner I'm running a Linn LP12 via a Musical Fidelity XLPS into my laptop and the results are almost as good as CD in my opinion. And the good news.... the Creative Labs thing retails for about €60 (maybe $80) Cheap as chips and very very user friendly.
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Posted By: Fitzcarraldo
Date Posted: February 06 2005 at 16:19
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I have no experience of transferring LPs and cassettes to CD, but my brother burnt all his LPs and musicassettes onto CD-R using software called PolderbitS ( http://www.polderbits.com/ - http://www.polderbits.com/ ) which he swears by. He tells me it is easy to use and gets rid of all the hiss and crackle. I've got a CD-R that he burnt for me last year from an old cassette of a now-unobtainable LP that I recorded years ago, and the quality is good (even when converted to an MP3 on my iRiver player). He claims it sounds better than the cassette - which theoretically should not be the case I suppose - but I have to say I agree.
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Posted By: Aaron
Date Posted: February 07 2005 at 00:02
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that creative labs sounds pretty simple, just depends if the 80 bucks is worth it thanks guys Aaron |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 07 2005 at 06:32
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This is a great mistake to convert analog vynil sound into numeric.
The better is to record your vynil on a good cassette deck, like a Nakamichi 1000zxl(the best in the world)for example... Moreover, all that passes through a computer is rotten! Compare an original Cd to the duplicated one, burnt on a computer and you will understand, if you listen it on A REAL GOOD TRANSPARENT SYTEM. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 07 2005 at 06:36
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Just for the eyes's pleasure...
Simply the best K7 deck in the world: http://my.reset.jp/~inu/ProductsDataBase/Products/Nakamichi/ Cassette-Decks-ZX/Nakamichi%201000ZXL.jpg |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 07 2005 at 06:39
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It seems ther's a pb with the previous url...
Try this one: http://k-nisi.hp.infoseek.co.jp/1000zxl-h.jpg |
Posted By: billm57
Date Posted: February 07 2005 at 09:42
| I like to use a program called LP recorder. very cheap..under 20 bucks i belive and it works great.. |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: February 07 2005 at 11:07
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Sorry Oliver... just not a believer in that theory. I've converted lots of vinyl to CD through the computer and it sounds fine and I have a pretty decent system and even if it does, it's just for the convenience of having CDs of the vinyl to listen to in the car and I sincerely don't believe that a Nakamichi deck is better than CD through a good system - the limitations of tape just don't permit it. Also I don't understand how the transferral of numbers and pure information from one cd to another can impair sound quality - it doesn't make sense to me. maybe i'm wrong but..... |
oliverstoned wrote:Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 07 2005 at 11:35
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"I sincerely don't believe that a Nakamichi deck is better than CD through a good system - the limitations of tape just don't permit it."
A nakamichi deck like that, with a good k7, recorded from a real good source, is much musical than any CD; Cause their are very bad inpair harmonics between 20knz to 40khz with numeric sound. This is one of the causes of numeric harshness of sound. When you record a CD on a good tapedeck, which bandwith goes to 16khz on a Pionner CTF1000 for example and to 21/22 khz on a Naka1000, there's a filtration of that bandwith up to 22khz and its bad impair harmonics are suppressed. That's one of the reason why a CD recorded on tape is better than the same Cd... And the bandwith from 20khz to 40 khz is unuseful to listen to music for humans. And believe me, a naka1000 playing a good tape, beat 15000€ good cd players easily. Like a Linn LP12 turntable ruins many expensive Cd players. That's the same. But you have to hear it to believe. That's what i do with my best CD, (exactly the contrary as you):i convert numeric into analog... "Also I don't understand how the transferral of numbers and pure information from one cd to another can impair sound quality - it doesn't make sense to me. maybe i'm wrong but....." Yes it's hard to believe at first, but if you were hearing a burnt computer CD and the original one beside on my hifi system, you would hear the difference in 10 seconds. That's why i use audiophile burner and not burn on my computer. The technical explanation is that sound (even numeric)is much more complex than a succession of 0 and 1. Thare are very complex harmonics problem and this not as simple as it seems; I would conclude by saying that today some very big studio musicians are looking for old 1960 studio tapedeck like some Studer, and they use it to improve their sound! That proves that there's a reason for that... |
Posted By: Aaron
Date Posted: February 08 2005 at 00:34
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[QUOTE=oliverstoned]It seems ther's a pb with the previous url...
i see a microwave Aaron |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 08 2005 at 13:46
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http://my.reset.jp/~inu/ProductsDataBase/Products/Nakamichi/ Cassette-Decks-ZX/Nakamichi-Cassette-Decks-ZX.htm
here's a good one! |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 08 2005 at 13:47
http://my.reset.jp/~inu/ProductsDataBase/Products/Nakamichi/ Cassette-Decks-ZX/Nakamichi-Cassette-Decks-ZX.htm |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 08 2005 at 13:48
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SORRY IT DOESN'T WORKS
Here's the gold version: http://www.segundamano.es/fichaI.cfm?id=1239428&categoria_id =12&subcategoria_id=22&orden=precio |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 08 2005 at 13:49
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http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?misccass&1111984747
the "normal" version |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 08 2005 at 16:14
From what I learnt, it's not possible to get frequencies much above 20 kHz on a CD because the whole concept of digital sampling means that the highest frequency preserved in an ADC conversion will be just under half of the sample rate of 44.1 kHz. edit: I'm having a go with some .wav software to see what happens. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 09 2005 at 13:07
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Hi goose,
it seems that there's some "supersonic noise" on CD from 20 to 40 khz From audioholics.com: "As you can see, there is no such thing as "absolute silence", even on a digital rip off the CD. Note, though, that there is a cliff drop at around 22kHz. Note also the rising noise below 1kHz and the "hump" around 20kHz. This is same bit, but as played back by the SCD-XA777ES via the analog outputs: The Sony played back the "silence" reasonably well. including the rise at the bottom end and the hump around 20kHz. However, note that additional ultrasonic noise between 20-40kHz has now crept in at around -108dB. " |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: February 09 2005 at 16:59
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What I still fail to properly understand is that if the 0s and 1s remain unaltered, how the audio data can possibly change. If noise has "crept in", it MUST have been introduced as binary data via an alien mechanism: Computers don't store information any other way - they don't "understand" sound. Granted that different readers interpret the data in different ways, due to the algorithms the implanted firmware uses to translate it - but I would not think it possible that data stored within a file could be changed unless the file has been opened and modified. Sound, as far as a computer is concerned, IS merely a succession of 1s and 0s. It cannot be any other way - that is how computers work. It is how the higher level software and hardware interprets or modifies those bits that alters the sound. http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/analog-digital3.htm - http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/analog-digital3.htm Unless someone knows different - linkage, anyone? |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 10 2005 at 05:37
OK, I don't know enough to disagree. Maybe someone should invent a filter/processer to connect between the CD player and the amp to remove anything over 22k... |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 10 2005 at 15:05
Yes, i've already think of something like that. Maybe it would be better, but the gap will be never filled between analog and numeric (and 24 bits technology will not change this, unfortunately) |
Posted By: HaroldLand
Date Posted: April 25 2005 at 22:08
i used that psolderbit program, and it was pretty good.. im by no means
an audiophile, so i just use audacity now, and reocord the stuff,
filter out some of the crackle, and im good to go.. to many people,
this yields very poor sound quality results, but i dont really care, i
just want something decent.. i usually end up buying records that i
really like on cd anyways 
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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: July 29 2005 at 07:27
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I have done some CD-r's as for back-up or to the car by simply recording the LP's as wav-file, and then editing it with Cool Edit Pro. Some major cracks and pops can also be faded if you have time, at least from some parts of the LP. I also did some experiments by altering the hertz values, but these adventures ruined the whole sound! Didn't notice it first from the lousy computer headphones, but listening them from a decent amplifirer revealed that the sound resonated in unbearable way. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: July 29 2005 at 14:39
| Yes, i keep on saying that converting analog vynils into numeric (it's the worst on a computer) completly ruins the sound! better buy cds. |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: July 30 2005 at 01:18
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When I do LP conversion with the basic hertz configurations of Cool Edit Pro, the sound is OK, at least in my standards. When you think of the CD versions of the LP's from pre-digital era, what's the difference between those done home or in a factory? If there are some problems with result, I'm sure it's a question of machines or programs and the skill to use them. But hey, this conversation is nice! These things have bothered me for a while, but I haven't managed to change opinnions about it before. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: July 30 2005 at 02:50
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"what's the difference between those done home or in a factory?" At home, moeover on a computer (which is the worst thing ever that has been created for sound, along with MP3 and others compressed sound formats), you ruin the sound, whereas in a factry, they use professional machines to duplicate CDs,Tapes or whatever. It has nothing to do.
"CD versions of the LP's from pre-digital era" they are not alll good, depending how carefully they done the conversion from numeric to analog, and anyway digital is crappy BUT it has many chances to be better than your homemade compression on a computer. The best is to record your vynil on a good turntable to a good tape deck! 
Btw, happy you enjoy this discussion 
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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: July 30 2005 at 04:44
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Sure! I have Akai GX-95 tapedeck, but I use it nowadays only for recording the music of the garage psych band I have with my friends. I agree with your opinnion about mp3's, I don't use them exept of listening some music samples from the progarchives. But do you (or anybody else here) know, what kind of formats do the music industry use? How much more denser they are than wav? I can enjoy transcriptions I have done in a way desribed before, but I have also guite bad hearing, so I quess I don't get all the details of the sound. But I enjoy analog sound more than digital, that's for sure. I'll have to leave before I get late from the sets! |
I'm anything but pro in this subject, but it interests me. Different opinnions make the discusson, and my (too) big ego seldom get's harmed. 
We're having two gigs today, and I just packed it to the car. I don't have very much different uses for casettes, as there's not MC player in my car, nor do I have walkman.Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: July 31 2005 at 05:36
Akai GX-95 is not too bad on a technical point, so you should use it instead of Mp3. That would be an interesting experiment for you. But it also depends on which turntable/cartridge you use. I'm not sure understanding well your question about formats being used by audio industry. |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: July 31 2005 at 08:33
I have Technics SL-DL1 turntable. I used to do some taping during early 90's, as my parent's car had a casette recorder. From that machine it ofcourse impossible to hear any good sound. At home I listen from a casette only those LP's I have copied from local library (not too many of them). Mainly I listen only the vinyls themselves, and not any kind of copy from them. I don't have any mp3 on my computer or CD for listening. I also use the vinyl transcriptions only in my car, or I make a backup copy for myself of the LP's I fear I might not be able to get anymore, should they be destroyed. I also did some "party CD's" to ruin parties where I was invited, but I'm not invited to them anymore.
OK, it's a bit complex for me to bring my thoughts about this in english, but I'll try. If one transfers an analog information to a digital information, then more denser the resolution of the binaries representing the soundwave should be, that closer of the original source should be the result, no? I would be interested in concrete details, how much better are the digital formats that music industry use, than the wave files used by common computer users, and in what way these sounds differ. How can the differences be heard? Me, with my bit deaf hearing, can probably be satisfied with much rougher sound than majority of the people. I respect and like analog technology and products done with it much more than of digital techology. But we're living in digital world, and I'll try to seek ways of bringing some analog content I like to some of the digitalized enviroments I'll have to be in. The opinnions of imitating alive sound with a computer could be taken to a level, where one can state that technology of any kind cannot bring the hoped result: real analog sound. It's allways plain binaries. The whole lifetime of the universe isn't enough for any kind of computer of any technology, to calculate and represent the fysiological phenomenons in quantum scale, which make the sounds appear to our world. Ouch, I think my braincapacity is running out... But there's some nice aspects of digitalization, like this forum and this discussion we're having!
Ops, what a mess my post was! |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: July 31 2005 at 09:52
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"But there's some nice aspects of digitalization, like this forum and this discussion we're having!"
Agree! but in the sound field, unfortunatly it's catastrophic compare to analog. "I would be interested in concrete details, how much better are the digital formats that music industry use, than the wave files used by common computer users, and in what way these sounds differ. How can the differences be heard?" I've not the technical/scientific knowledge to tell you in detail (that's very complex), but the simple thing is that MP3 and others are much more compressed than classic CD, which results in a great loss of data. This results in a very bad sound on all criterias. In the audio industry, they compress dynamic unfortunatly but when you buy an original CD, it has nothing to do with a mp3 or even a computer-burned cd, but that's another issue. But to hear this differences, you need to have a real good system. "But we're living in digital world, and I'll try to seek ways of bringing some analog content I like to some of the digitalized enviroments I'll have to be in" Yes, that's sad but fortunatly there's enough stock of analog vynils to enjoy analog sounds during a long time! But we are in a digital world like you said, that's why i bought myself a great CD player (Sonic frontiers SFT-1 drive + Goldmund Mimesis 14 converter+ Nordost digital cable). Sonic frontiers SFT-1 (on the upper) 
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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: July 31 2005 at 11:22
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Wow, that's a nice player! I'll manage atleast now with LG DVX8651, as I can play my CD's and DVD's with the same machine. It supports also mpg's and divx, and it was a real lowbudget thing, about 70€. Thanks for nice brainstroming! |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: July 31 2005 at 14:58
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Here's my power amp.
Highly recommended, the best price/value of the whole market
Jolida 302 
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Posted By: cobb
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 03:30
This is a physical impossibility. CD duplication invloves transferring 0 and 1s from one cd to another. If it messes this up, the duplication is in error. Digital music is just a series of binary code that is translated into sound by the sound card. You can't get any loss of signal- the duplication is the same as the original |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 04:46
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Do you know, does the quality of windows wav-files match with the digital files in factory produced CD's? I mean, that there isn't anykind of compression in wavs? In pratice: If i rip a CD, which I have bought from a store, to a wav file f.ex. with Easy CD Creator, and I choose highest quality values for it, is the transcription 1 to 1? |
Posted By: cobb
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 05:28
| The only way to get an exact copy is to perform a CD copy. Why do you copy them as wav's to your hard drive when roxio will do a cd to cd copy? |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 06:56
| You can't get a perfect copy of an audio CD with most programs because they (edit: don't) allow for offsets. As far as I know there are only two ripping programs that do - Exact Audio Copy and Plextools, although I think there may be more. |
Posted By: cobb
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 07:02
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No you are talking about ripping.... Ripping involves running the original music through an algorithm and essentially re-recording it. This will only be as good as the hardware and software that you are using. Making a CD copy is just making a digital copy of the data on the ISO- it is exactly them same, a perfect clone. If I'm wrong on this, I'm sure someone will tell me. |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:09
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It is a digital copy, but it misses about 200 samples from the beginning and end of the CD. When there are 44,100 samples a second that's not a very big deal, but it's still not perfect. Converting to .wav isn't rerecording the sound at all, it retains all the data and just represents it in a different way - it's just as perfect as a CD copy, assuming all the data has been ripped correctly in the first place.
Offsets: http://pages.cthome.net/homepage/eac/setup1.htm - http://pages.cthome.net/homepage/eac/setup1.htm
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Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:30
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tubes own!!! someday I'm gonna build me a tubestate power amp... ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:38
This is much more complex. Anyway, we have already discuss this. |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 12:31
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I can edit the waveform after that. I do this transcribing only when I wan't to do A compillation CD for my car. It's nicer to fade the beginnings and the endings of tracks from a concept album, where the music runs continuously from beginning to end. I also may amplify some of the tracks, to have more balanced volumelevel on the CD-R. So wav is a compressed format also, with some data lost or altered from the original? |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 12:36
It's not?
 Hip!  When I examine the waveforms I have ripped (with 44,100), I sometimes have noticed a microscopic gap at the beginning and the end of the track. That's annoying, 'cause one can hear it very clearly when a track changes, in a serie of tracks with continuing music. I also correct those manually with Cool Edit Pro.
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Posted By: cobb
Date Posted: August 12 2005 at 21:58
In this circumstance - carrying on regardless. Audio perfection is only for audiophile perfectionists anyway. We don't all have million dollar audio equipment that can show up these differences. The music will still sound great even if you convert an MP3 with a high sampling rate and burn it as a wav. The easiest way to think of wav is that if you copy a song from a CD onto your hard drive (just a straight folder to folder copy - no media application involved) it will get a wav extension so that windows knows it is an audio file. No compression in a wav, but may have lost bits as pointed out- not too sure on this though (don't know enough about how the ISO works compared to hard drive allocation). The no compression can be easily demonstrated by copying an MP3 to audio on a CD- the 3MB MP3 will be blown out to 30MB audio file |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: August 13 2005 at 03:35
Thanks! 
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: August 13 2005 at 07:06
| Not all compression means a loss of sound though. Also you can fit more music on an audio CD than you can if you burn .wavs as data on it, I forget why now, although I believe it's something to do with error corrections. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: August 19 2005 at 03:48
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You could always include a stand alone CD recorder in your hi-fi setup - personally, I use a Phillips CDR760 & have always had good results.
Sorry - not technical I know  just my own humble opinion... ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 02 2005 at 07:57
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I just hooked up my Phillips CD recorder to my stereo to duplicate the vinyls and it works correctly. I do not use special filters. I do have special digital cables when recording Cds, though , but for analog (Vinyls) recordings they are the good old quality cables I always had! I am happy with the results and it does not fade away as taping vinyls on cassettes , however good the brand (Maxxell XL II-s) was my fave until I switched to Cd-Rs. The sound difference is noticeable : on some compilations I make, there are Cd track and then Vinyl tracks and there are scratches and pops but who cares.... nothing shocking I do not trust computers in transferring analog to digital or even digital to digital! Many copies of cd-Rs from friends have problems playing in most decks. I never have the problem as I use the Hi-fi option. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |