I was looking back over my collection the other night and played a few tunes off Selling England by the Pound and Invisible Touch and I had to admit that I liked the stuff with Phil singing more.Also The 80's production really strikes a chord with me and takes me back to my 80's heyday playing in Cock Rock bands.

Any other  Phil>Gabriel believers here?

I was in a band called Dame back in the 80's. We mixed some aspects of cock rock with elements of King Crimson and Floyd.

Basically what it meant was that we got to play the complicated worthy music we loved whilst getting to bang smokin hot groupies in hotel Jacuzzi's.

Exactly!

Not being the best looking of guys I had to get some tail somehow!

I think Phil gets an unfair rap myself. His drumming is what made the band in the first place.

Wes_Powell wrote: I think Phil gets an unfair rap myself. His drumming is what made the band in the first place.

I don't think that his drumming make the band. The Knife is awesome without him, and his voice can only closely mimick Gabriel's standard sining voice. Not to mention he and Rutherford wrote some of the worst lyrics I've ever heard once Hackett left.

Invisible Touch? 

Ahhh I know you guys are gonna jump on me for it but i just love the smooth 80's production.

I reckon Collins could give Portnoy a run for his money anyday.

Wes_Powell wrote: I was looking back over my collection the other night and played a few tunes off Selling England by the Pound and Invisible Touch and I had to admit that I liked the stuff with Phil singing more.Also The 80's production really strikes a chord with me and takes me back to my 80's heyday playing in Cock Rock bands.     Any other  Phil>Gabriel believers here?

Admit it - you're Patrick Bateman aren't you?

For what it's worth, I think post Gabriel Genesis was pretty good, and Trick of the Tail is probably their strongest studio album (although not my personal favourite).

Post Hackett Genesis was .

Post hackett was

PEople like you cant accept change, as COllins says himself:

"YOu don't wear the same clothing everyday"

IT IS A"METAPHOR" FOR THE BAND DOING THE SAME OLD THING ALL THE TIME INCASE YOU HAD NOT NOwn

I can't wait for Ivan's reaction...

You asked for it Mirco, but it's calmed, because this is not a matter of taste, it's artistic music vs POP SOFT BLAND BALLADS, that have no place in a progressoive Rock forum.

I understand (even when I absolutely disagree) if someone in a progressive rock forum says he likes more ATOTT or W&W because Phil sings better the progressive stuff, or even that¨Phil Collins sings better the Gabriel stuff because this opinion would be only a matter of taste.

But anyone who comes to a progressive rock forum and says Invisible Touch, Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit (Because that's what Wes_Powell is saying) is better than Dancing with The Moonlit Knight, Supper's Ready or The Musical Box, is entitled to his taste, but he would feel more comfortable in a POP forum, like The Phil Collins Paradise or maybe even joining the in the Duran Duran or Michael Jackson's fan club where this opinions are very common.

Iván

PS: Hey Wes_Powell aren't you related to a guy who uses the nick kOOl Prog Guruz?

think Phil gets an unfair rap myself. His drumming is what made the band in the first place

Wow, this one is great, Phil Collins was only a drummer, a good one but nothing else, Peter’ Gabriel’s voice and lyrics, Steve Hackett’s unique guitar and Tony Banks compositions is what made Genesis one of the best prog bands (Sorry for Mike but IMO the bassist could have been almost any one).

Trespass IMHO is a much better album than ant post Gabriel album (Yes, for me it’s better than ATOTT, W&W and even than Selling England), and Phil Collins wasn’t there. I heard the drum parts in Trespass and must say that Genesis would not have changed very much without Collins except for his backing vocals.

Seems that someone is trying to flame or do a bit of trolling.

YOu don't wear the same clothing everyday"

If Phil Collins compares his music with a simple set of clothes, this gives us an idea how important is the music for him, maybe as vital as a suit or a T-Shirt, whatever provides him more money.

¿Por que mi amigo? Solo dije lo que pensaba acerca de la comparación entre Invisible Toiuch y SEBTP, sin siquiera alterarme.

Why my friend? I only said what I thought aboutthe comparison between I.T. and SEBP, without even gettinga altered.

Peace

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: If Phil Collins compares his music with a simple set of clothes, this gives us an idea how important is the music for him, maybe as vital as a suit or a T-Shirt, whatever provides him more money. Iván

Peace to you too, amigo mio...

Syzygy wrote: Wes_Powell wrote: I was looking back over my collection the other night and played a few tunes off Selling England by the Pound and Invisible Touch and I had to admit that I liked the stuff with Phil singing more.Also The 80's production really strikes a chord with me and takes me back to my 80's heyday playing in Cock Rock bands.     Any other  Phil>Gabriel believers here? Admit it - you're Patrick Bateman aren't you?

 killer thread

ivan_2068 wrote: I can't wait for Ivan's reaction... You asked for it Mirco, but it's calmed, because this is not a matter of taste, it's artistic music vs POP SOFT BLAND BALLADS, that have no place in a progressoive Rock forum. I understand (even when I absolutely disagree) if someone in a progressive rock forum says he likes more ATOTT or W&W because Phil sings better the progressive stuff, or even that¨Phil Collins sings better the Gabriel stuff because this opinion would be only a matter of taste. But anyone who comes to a progressive rock forum and says Invisible Touch, Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit (Because that's what Wes_Powell is saying) is better than Dancing with The Moonlit Knight, Supper's Ready or The Musical Box, is entitled to his taste, but he would feel more comfortable in a POP forum, like The Phil Collins Paradise or maybe even joining the in the Duran Duran or Michael Jackson's fan club where this opinions are very common. Iván PS: Hey Wes_Powell aren't you related to a guy who uses the nick kOOl Prog Guruz?

I need to bookmark this.Thanks for giving me my greatest laugh today Ivan.(And I thought it was only Brits who could do really good patroninsing and condascending put downs).

to answer the question, i would say it depends....

for the drumming performance, no doubt: ATOTT and W&W are the best ones hands down!

for the poignant electric guitar solos, W&W is the best one.

for the best jazzy and best technical performance, ATOTT is the album.

for the catchiest tracks, ATOTT, ATTWT and W&W win hands down (many too many, ripples, blood on the rooftops)

on the other hand,

 the best & elaborated compositions are on the albums with gabriel, especially Fxtrt and selling.

the most complex tracks are on the gabriel albums.

the most prog tracks are on the gabriel albums.

the best overall albums are some gabriel albums: fxtrt and selling.

the best keyboards parts are on fxtrt and selling.

Finally, the best vocals are ..... on the Collins albums! just listen to ripples, blood on the rooftops and ATTWT and you'll see!

greenback

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

Not again,Gabriel's Genesis is miles better.Collins ruined a great prog band.I despise this odious little fricking arse of a man.

ivan_2068 wrote: think Phil gets an unfair rap myself. His drumming is what made the band in the first place Wow, this one is great, Phil Collins was only a drummer, a good one but nothing else, Peter’ Gabriel’s voice and lyrics, Steve Hackett’s unique guitar and Tony Banks compositions is what made Genesis one of the best prog bands (Sorry for Mike but IMO the bassist could have been almost any one). Trespass IMHO is a much better album than ant post Gabriel album (Yes, for me it’s better than ATOTT, W&W and even than Selling England), and Phil Collins wasn’t there. I heard the drum parts in Trespass and must say that Genesis would not have changed very much without Collins except for his backing vocals. Seems that someone is trying to flame or do a bit of trolling. YOu don't wear the same clothing everyday" If Phil Collins compares his music with a simple set of clothes, this gives us an idea how important is the music for him, maybe as vital as a suit or a T-Shirt, whatever provides him more money. Iván

Yes, someone who shares my opinion! I love Trespass, and prefer it to the post Hackett. As for Phil Collins' quote- Genesis was always inovative, and changed dramatically with each record. He just changed it in the wrong way.

Gabriel doesn't have the most gifted voice in the market, but he has something special, he transmits the message he wants, he plays with the feelings of the listener and makes you a part of the plot of the song or album.

I always give this example, but it's really clear, In The Cage is the most descriptive track I ever heard, Gabriel not only tells the story of Rael trapped in the rocks cage but he describes the feelings that pass by Rael's mind, his physical symptoms, his anger and pain plus the solitude and disappointment when abandoned by his brother John.

I always feel the pain and claustrophobia made more evident with his famous semi yodeling almost as a desperate cry for help:

Stalactites, stalagmites
Shut me in, lock me tight.
Lips are dry, throat is dry.
Feel like burning, stomach churning,
I'm dressed up in a white costume
Padding out leftover room.
Body stretching, feel the wretching
In the cage
Get me out of this cage!

Of course the lyrics and the dramatic lyrics (By Gabriel) help a lot, because nobody can be emotional with Misunderstanding, but Phil is unemotional.

Phil's voice is nice for the soft stuff, but he sings in only one tone and he's incapable of transmitting emotions, when he tries to be dramatic he only shouts, for example listen the touch me, touch me part of The Musical Box by the two vocalists and the difference is very clear in favor of Peter.

Iván

I agree with ivan too..

Thats a good appraisal of both singers. Gabriels voice basically had more character and was more expressive. Phil Collins was technically a better singer, but was really a just a more polished version, especially on TOTT and WAW. Its funny that when their manager first heard Phil singing lead vocals in the rehearsals for TOTT he said 'Phil sounds more like Peter Gabriel than Peter Gabriel!'

And of course at the reunion concert at Milton Keynes in 1882 (?) PG was reported to have said to PC 'You sing the old songs better than I do, but you'll never sing them like I do'

When Hackett left it did mark the end of an era, thats for sure. Hackett thought the band were moving onto very safe and unadventurous ground, and was sick of having his songs rejected by the band.

For me 'And then there were three' and 'Duke' were both very good albums, though. It was after Duke they turned sh!t over night. Abacab was drivel IMO. Sounded like they had knocked it up in a day  Everything they done subsequesntly barely warrents comment.

"Better" - in what way?

If you prefer the music after Gabriel left, then to you, yes, they were better.

From a technical musical perspective, Syzygy is right on the money - the quality of the musc changed dramatically after Steve Hackett left - necessarily.

However, Banks has always been a bit of an understated powerhouse of great musical ideas, and to me at least, Duke is the last of the truly progressive albums, each of which have qualities that appeal in very different ways; highlighting Genesis' versatility as a band.

That said, "A Trick of The Tail" is where the musical ideas become noticeably less experimental and more "safe". Ironically, this is summed up in the lyrics to "Duchess" on "Duke".

What's better is up to you - but I prefer music to be more experimental and less "safe".

Velvetclown wrote: Genesis was better without Steve Howe !!!!!!!!!

Steve HOWE?? Perhaps if Howe had replaced Hackett they would have still produced something worth listening to after 1980!!

Did nothing for Yes though.

I'm presuming I'm the only person here who's been scolded by Phil Collins ... and that for asking him a question which wasn't subtle enough to hide the fact that I much prefer Gabriel-era Genesis ...

It happened during a video conference interview in 1996. Twas my first year as a journalist for Malaysia's The Star newspaper, and Phil was promoting the Dance in the Light album ...

Phil's two notable quotes ... "Do you want Steve Hackett's phone number? Actually Steve is one of those people I found where all we had in common was the music, and when we stopped playing together, we had nothing to say to each other. I've seen him once or twice at Michael Rutherford's parties, I think" and equally tellingly ... "I don't think I'm doing the same old sh*t all the time" ...

Sigh ... it's tough as a journalist not to go fawning over your heroes ... ( I think Phil's drumming was particularly outstanding on Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot and Selling England by the Pound ... plus I really love the haunting song In The Air Tonight) ... but I obviously went too far in the other direction on that occasion...

Velvetclown wrote:

er... I wasn't replying to your post, Velve - I was being lazy and just posting a generic type answer to the original question.

You are of course, 50% correct. Without Mr Howe, Genesis produced their very best music. However, they also produced their worst...

You know...I have mixed feelings about Gabriel. My opinion is that the Gabriel era was the finest productionwise at Genesis. But lets be honest, leaving Genesis for a solo, huuummm, may I say pop career ? didnt seem quite right. If you look at his overall work; Genesis + Solo I'd say that Gabriel is overrated and mega cultuated. I never cared much for Collins anyway but I'm obliged to listen to his crap since my better half just adores Mr. Collins

So to answer the question...No ! Gabriels bigger than Collins what concerns Genesis vocals !

- Did my bad English mislead any of you ! -

_________

Lunar  

Jim Garten wrote: Blacksword wrote: Velvetclown wrote: Genesis was better without Steve Howe !!!!!!!!!  Steve HOWE?? Perhaps if Howe had replaced Hackett they would have still produced something worth listening to after 1980!! Have you heard GTR??

Yes I have. Point taken. Its a funny old world, when two great musicians can get together and produce such sh!te

Hows does it happen?!

Lunarscape wrote: You know...I have mixed feelings about Gabriel. My opinion is that the Gabriel era was the finest productionwise at Genesis. But lets be honest, leaving Genesis for a solo, huuummm, may I say pop career ? didnt seem quite right. If you look at his overall work; Genesis + Solo I'd say that Gabriel is overrated and mega cultuated. I never cared much for Collins anyway but I'm obliged to listen to his crap since my better half just adores Mr. Collins So to answer the question...No ! Gabriels bigger than Collins what concerns Genesis vocals ! - Did my bad English mislead any of you ! - _________ Lunar

Gabriel leaves for pop career???????? - splutter!!!!! Hardly. With the exception of the (by and large) regrettable So album, nothing Gabriel has done has been pop. His first four solo albums new wave, funk and electronica they're miles away from pop. The fact that they also contain some great hummable melodies doesn't make them bad. And you only have to look at Collins' slavish recreation of Gabriel's sound on 'Face Value' and 'Hello I Must be Going' to see how influential PG was on all of Genesis. Collins was even doing it on the mid-80s Genesis album - Mama being a nod to Rhythm of the Heat etc

After So, Gabriel's Us was a return to form and there are some truly wonderful trackson that especially the gorgeous Washing of the Water. Ok the thing for the Millennium Dome was rather woeful but it did contain Father/Son which is a brilliant song. And Up is a similarly great record - and miles away from pop.

Oh and don't forget the Passion - his awesome soundtrack for The Last Temptation of Christ.

The man has talent to burn and can still cut it when most artists his age are writing music for the Lion King...

Blacksword wrote: Jim Garten wrote: Blacksword wrote: Velvetclown wrote: Genesis was better without Steve Howe !!!!!!!!!  Steve HOWE?? Perhaps if Howe had replaced Hackett they would have still produced something worth listening to after 1980!! Have you heard GTR?? Yes I have. Point taken. Its a funny old world, when two great musicians can get together and produce such sh!te Hows does it happen?!

Yeah..i heard they kinda suck, but i have to hear them even though i know i'll be severely dissapointed. I  saw the vinyl for 6.99$ the other day: should i get it?

ivan_2068 wrote:   Wow, this one is great, Phil Collins was only a drummer, a good one but nothing else, Peter’ Gabriel’s voice and lyrics, Steve Hackett’s unique guitar and Tony Banks compositions is what made Genesis one of the best prog bands (Sorry for Mike but IMO the bassist could have been almost any one).   Trespass IMHO is a much better album than ant post Gabriel album (Yes, for me it’s better than ATOTT, W&W and even than Selling England), and Phil Collins wasn’t there. I heard the drum parts in Trespass and must say that Genesis would not have changed very much without Collins except for his backing vocals.   Iván

I know some people who wolud agree with Iván on that, yet I do´'t quite see the point. John Mayhew's drumming, while not disastrous, is really out of order with all those obsessive rollings that seem to overload some beautiful climaxes in songs such as 'Visions of Angels' or 'Stagnation'. Collins is a hell of a drummer, much better than any of his predecessors in Genesis. His sense of swing, precision, and his jazzy leanings helped Genesis to reinforce the rhythm section in a most energetic way, something that was clearly lacking in their first two albums (compare it to KC's first two albums, for example, that's what I call a fiery rhythm section!!... even in the slow songs...)

I think that there's lots of magic and dense mystery in the Trespass album, but I also believe that the musical work performed and arranged there is very immature. Foxtrot and SEBTP show you how a mature band should sound like: the material is more diversed, and the sense of energy is enhanced, while keeping that special dense magic in most of the acoustic parts. Even a transitional album as Nursery Cryme displays a more accomplished vibe and a cleverer management of contrasts (something very progressive, indeed) than Trespass. Sometimes "very good" is a worse enemy of "excellent" than "very bad": Trespass shows you how an album that should have been excellent, just had to settle down to being very good. Trespass was my first Genesis purchase ever, and all the time I began to get acquainted with all the Genesis stuff, I gained a better perspective of its true artistic value.

Regarding Rutherford's inputs for Genesis, I must remind all my fellow ProgArchives memebers that, despite him not being a genius at playing bass and 12-string guitar, he certainly has written or co-written some of the best stuff of 70s Genesis (White Mountain, The Musical Box, The Cinema Show, Ripples), so his efforts should not be diminished just like that. Among the collection of the most irrelevant Genesis numbers during their post-Havckett phase, there are more compositions by Banks and Collins than by Rutherford.

Regards.

Cesar: I always liked the fabulous speed Mayhew had, of course Phil is better than him as drummer, but in matterof composition and musical ambition Genesis wouldn't have changed too much because Collins cotribution for the best Genesis albums (From Nursery Cryme to The Lamb) is almost 0.

By the way, Mayhew would never been responsible for almost ruining SEBTP withe the most boring and mediocre track from Peter's era, MORE FOOL ME

You couldn't be more wrong IMO. The fact that he could play guitar and bass (pedals) at the same time is one of the biggest factors of the greatness of Genesis. It just adds that "fullness" typical to the Genesis sound. See: The Musical Box.

Being absolutely honest, Cesar is right about Mike's compositions skills were very helpfull for Genesis but let's not remember he's guilty for Your Own Special Way, which IMHO is the starting point of the end of Genesis.

Now lets talk about his style as bassist, it absolutely and totally leaves me cold, he has no soul, and the typicall Genesis sound was created by Steve Hackett & Tony Banks, Mike had nothing to do with that.

Just as the jewel of the crown, Mike's solo career is only better that Phil Collins, what means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: By the way, Mayhew would never been responsible for almost ruining SETP withe the most boring and mediocre track from Peter's era, MORE FOOL ME

Hey I like it better than "For Absent Friends"

Firstly, I've got to support the 'Genesis better before Hackett' contingent, Hackett was taken on by the band for his ability to write and perform 'atmospheric' and unique sounding Guitar styles, when he departed, a large chunk of the established Genesis 'sound' that made the band 'stand out' from others at the time, disappeared also.

Secondly, If Collins was such a good singer/songwriter or at the very least, more than a drummer, why didn't he display this while Gabriel was in the band, 'More fool me' is hardly a showcase for his blinding talent, He could have released a debut solo album at the same time as Gabriel and Hackett released theirs if he was that much of a talent, but it didn't happen. Collins was, and possibly still is a brillliant drummer but that's about it. I can listen to any of the 'Brand X' albums he featured on over and over, but 'No Jacket Required'??? you can forget it.