Upper/Lower case in titles
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Forum Name: Report errors & omissions here
Forum Description: Seen a mistake in a band bio etc then please tell us
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33476
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Topic: Upper/Lower case in titles
Posted By: Fassbinder
Subject: Upper/Lower case in titles
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:05
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PFM 2006 -- Stati di immaginazione.
It should be written as Immaginazione, with the initial upper case letter, since it is a noun.
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Replies:
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:11
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I often experience a similair problem, particularily with French
titles. The problem is that people who don't speak French often write
the titles wrong. An example is Art Zoyd's Musique pour l'Odyssée.
People often write "L'odyssée" instead, which is wrong because Odyssée
is the noun and the " l' " is the same as a "la" or "le", which in turn
is the same as a "the", and therefore should be written with lower case
letters. The same principle applies to " d' ", which is the same as
"de", meaning "of" or "from". |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:23
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I'm working for a while with the titles beginning with "A". There are plenty of inaccuracies already. The project will take some good days (or even weeks). The main problem is, of course, with the non-English titles. But it is possible to overcome too, with the help of the native speakers of the correspondent languages, since the rules are the same -- main parts of speech begin with upper case letters, the others -- with lower case.
L'Odyssee should be written with lower case "l" when in the middle of the title, since "l" stands for the article "le" or "la", and with upper case "l" when it's at the beginning of the title.
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Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:26
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Quite agree .... as far as I am concerned all words in titles should be capitalised .... but, I am not familiar with the conventions of languages other than English which may differ .... eg in French should it be "L'Homme" or "l'Homme"? Done ... thanks PS - there are many cases of this where people have added titles with lower case initials - generally, as I make my way around the DB I change them if I spot them Edit: just noticed your post above   |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:35
That is correct as it is written. What you say would be correct if it was about English or German, but that's in Italian. Latin languages don't have this rule. For example these Romanian titles are also not correct: ../Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=7399 - Cei Ce Ne-Au Dat Nume or ../Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=7400 - Mugur De Fluier . They should be written "Cei ce ne-au dat nume" and "Mugur de fluier". ../Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=7399 - ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Fassbinder wrote:Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:39
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I think that people are copying and pasting the foreign language titles from another source because they are uncomnfortable with the language or form and forgetting to recapitalize.
I think that they should take more care..or not do it at all. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:40
| ^It's the same thing with Finnish titles. All words should be in lower case, except proper nouns which are always in upper case. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:41
Sorry, but as a native speaker of Italian I disagree. The title is NOT in English, so it shouldn't submit to the rules of the English language. When I write titles in English in an Italian context (something that happens quite often), I always use upper case initials for nouns, adjectives and verbs - please, let's not Anglicise all languages, as much as I love English!  |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:42
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Well, this is what I have for the moment:
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=11418 - A bulik másképpen! (Népstadion 1994/99), OMEGA (HR) (2002) -- in Hungarian -- ??? about the parts of speech
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=11066 - A Hard Day's night, BEATLES, THE (1964)
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=877 - A live Show , MALIBRAN (2001)
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=12440 - A Night At Red Rocks with the Colorado Symphony Orchestra, MOODY BLUES, THE (1993) -- I still think that only main parts of speech should be capitalised
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=9992 - A ti se ne daj, MLINAREC, DRAGO (1971) -- Serbocroatian, I can't be sure here
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=5 - A Trick Of The Tail, GENESIS (1976)
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=11747 - A Vision Of A Dying Embrace, ANATHEMA (2002)
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=932 - A work of Art , MIND'S EYE (2002)
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=13969 - Aborescence/Become The Other , OZRIC TENTACLES (2003)
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=14060 - Ach to státu hanobení, PLASTIC PEOPLE OF THE UNIVERSE, THE (1977) -- ???
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=1738 - Acorralado Por Ti , NU (1984) -- "por"
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=10362 - Acoustic Live In Toronto At Hugh's Room, STRAWBS (2004)
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=1145 - Acquiring The Taste , GENTLE GIANT (1971)
http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=9020 - Across The Circle's Edge, WINTER (1992)
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Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:45
OK. Then, should all the other titles in Italian be reconsidered? Most of them are written with the upper case initial letters...
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:49
| Only the initial word of the title - e.g. "Stati di immaginazione", "Io sono nato libero", "Per un amico", etc. Italian has very strict rules concerning the use of upper case initials - they are mostly used for proper nouns. Names of languages, for instance, all have lower case initials. |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:52
Great. It means that almost all the titles in Italian, appearing in PA, should be rewritten now...
Poor Joolz...
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:54
| If he needs help, I'll try to give him a hand with Italian titles. After all, being my mother tongue, I'm sure not to make mistakes! |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 08:58
| When I growed up, there was very right proverb in the USSR -- "Initiative is punishable"... |
Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:02
Can you just confirm you are specifically referring to titles and not generally? For example, in English ... as a title .... A Hard Day's Night .... In The Wake Of Poseidon general grammar .... A hard day's night .... in the wake of Poseidon |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:06
| I want to bring my apologies for the mess caused by my posts and for the uncomfortable feelings of everybody who was hurted by them. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:07
| I am referring to both. In Italian titles are written just like normal phrases and sentences. Upper case is only used for the first word in a phrase, or for proper nouns - e.g. "Felona e Sorona". |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:12
With all due respect this is an English language site so surely presentation of titles etc should follow the English style...? 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:14
What? Are you joking? I'm NOT hurt by anything... As a native speaker of Italian, I just wanted to set the record straight in order to help you do the best possible job. Just that! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:17
No, Tony, languages should follow their own rules even when quoted in a foreign language context. This is a basic rule of linguistics. Of course, when talking about languages not written in the Roman script, translitteration is essential to afford comprehension. This is not the case with European languages, though. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:18
| I agree with Tony. The site looks more tidy if all titles are written in the same way. |
Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:20
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err, but wouldn't that reduce the originality of the album itself ? ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:21
No, unfortunately, I'm not joking. I'm truly very glad that you aren't hurt by any of my posts/suggestions, but I feel I opened an unwanted theme. After all, the re-writing of the titles may take a good amount of (very precious) time. And, at last, who cares? Those who writes everithing with lower case letters, including their proper names? The pedants between us are able to see the right spelling through the forest of mistakes even without any corrections.
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:28
Yes, I understand that but this is consistency of presentation we are discussing here, it just looks neater and more professional if they are all presented uniformly. Otherwise the site would have a piecemeal look to it. Stati Di Immagionazione should be presented the same way as Made In Japan etc.. IMO of course. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:36
Tony, sorry to contradict you (I've been negatively influenced by someone you know.... hahahhaha ), but there is nothing professional in altering the rules of a language. I know that from firsthand experience - I'm a translator among other things, and write essays in Italian in which I quote English book titles by using the rules of English - that is, upper case initials when it is necessary. However, if you think the site looks better with consistency of presentation, I won't start a war against it. I just wanted to offer my qualified advice as a language expert. |
Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:37
Noo - I'm glad you did - I like to get things right
Dammit I agree with both of you 
IMO you are both right .... I do believe the conventions [spelling
(accents etc) as well as grammar] of native languages should be
honoured, but it looks much better to be consistent .... doh
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Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:41
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The current conditions aren't too comfortable for work. I suggest, first of all, to reach the consensus. How should a(n ideal?) title look like? The easiest solution (not necessarily the most logical one) is to write everything with the initial capital letter. Anyway, only with clear rules in hands, there is a possibility to make a corrector's work. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:45
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How about making a poll of this thread? Rules vs. Consistent presentation? |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:49
although we wont mention the fact that I studied English, FRENCH and GERMAN Literature for my Honours Degree...
its not about the conventions of language, its about presentation format which is completely different.
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Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:49
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There it is a problem, nevertheless. It it is represented from the word "to be" that in the third singular person of the present indicative it becomes "è". In fact in the computer it is not existed like capital letter. How do we have to allow us? For example we should write: "Dopo... Niente è Più lo stesso" (a song by BMS) or: Dopo... Niente E' Più Lo Stesso" Why in Italian it is not the same thing. ------------- 
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Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:49
No, it's for the site owners and Admin to decide |
Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:51
erm ..... È .... what's the problem? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 09:59
OK, Tony, I understand the point. Anyway, I didn't mean to offend you in any way... I didn't know anything about your studies, and I never wanted to imply that you didn't know anything about foreign languages (I am well aware that you're very fluent in French). I just saw this thread and jumped in as usual... never meant to start any kind of controversy. |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 10:03
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Diacritics are the totally different issue.
Back to our sheep...
I think that it should be seen as "for the PA internal use only", regardless the actual linguistic reality.
Proposals:
1) Everything is written with the capitalised initial letter (unless the lower case is intended by an artist);
2) Main parts of speech are written with upper case initial letter, everything else is with lower case (except for the proper names, of course); once again, unless the lower case is intended).
An example of initial lower case intended by an artist -- pH7 by P.Hammill.
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Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 10:08
That I do not succeed to write it in capital letter and like believe me that there be also other persons in possession of keyboards that do not allow it. All here. -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 10:14
I was just teasing you....if I was upset I would have terminated you!
And my French (and my English grammar judging by this sentence) is dreadful since I havent used it for 25 years....
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Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 10:25
It's not on the keyboard, it is in the Character Map [assuming you are on a Windows PC] - you find it in Accessories -> System Tools ----------------------------------------------------------- I'm off to bed now. Have we reached any decision here? Tony / Raff ..... |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 10:31
As for the diacritics -- if the Character Map isn't helpful, just open a Word document, enter the "Insert Symbol" section, find a diacriticised (??) letter, then copy/paste it into the post box in PA. That's what I do, always successfully. Some of these diacritics are mantained by a system, but some aren't, however...
As for the decision -- I've posted two proposals -- haven't seen any reaction for a while...
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 10:33
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I think album titles probably should be capitalized according the rules of their respective languages, otherwise we're setting a bad precedent and people will come away misinformed. That should be more important than being slightly easier on certain peoples' eyes. I'm slowly dealing with my mislabelled mp3s because the cognitive dissonance became too much. No more "L'Isola di Niente" for me, I'll have to learn to handle the stark italian format. ;) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 10:35
| There is always a possibility to write the original title in parentheses... beside the "conventional" one... |
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 10:37
In Polish you write titles in the exact same manner. I remember that when I added albums of Skaldowie someone "corrected" all their titles. ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: January 21 2007 at 11:17
I think it's pretty obvious that all titles should be written correctly, so if there are words in lower case they shouldn't be changed to upper case. That would be the same as deliberately spelling the title wrong. 
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