Why Is Prog So Hated?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30768
Printed Date: February 22 2025 at 09:26
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Why Is Prog So Hated?
Posted By: ThisWas
Subject: Why Is Prog So Hated?
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:09
|
any ideas as to the main cause of the destestment of prog? |
Replies:
Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:10
|
It's not hated: do you hate your weird, mentally ill brother? ------------- 
|
Posted By: ThisWas
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:11
|
idont have a mentally ill brother, i dont even have a brother, he died when he was young. and from my experience, prog is hated, its been called pretentious overblown, boring, not fun to listen to. and i want to know why certain people think these things |
Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:12
Whoah, you have to have a sense of humor, man.  -------------
|
ThisWas wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:13
| Firstly, bask in prog's untoward shadow, it keeps it honest. Second, I suspect it is as secretly admired as it is 'hated'. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:13
|
It's not hated, just completely ignored. Just a lot of preconceptions abound. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: ThisWas
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:14
|
im not mad that people think these things, nor mad at your comment, how were you to know of my brother. im just wondering what about prog, drives people away, or causes them to not enjoy it |
Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:15
That's a great way of putting it! -------------
|
Posted By: Asyte2c00
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:15
|
Because it encompasses everything good that is either inaccessible compared to contemporary pop standards or appears pretentious, too eclectic for popular scociety. A person must invest a lot of time and effort to truly appreciate the virtues of progressive musc. Proggers listen to whole albums rather than songs. Prog is both past and present. White Willow, Wobbler, Flowee kIngs to Genesis, ELP, Yes, Kansas. There is always something new to investigate. Its simply too much for people to take interest in, unless you have alot of time, an opend mind and appreciation for intriguing, captivating music.
It can overwhelming for people who have been lsitening to hook drive pop melodies for their whole life. Imagine a person who listens to the TOP 40 every week listening to "Supper's Ready" for the first time. they would get diintereested immediately becsue they either lack the patience or fail to appreciate talented muscianship.
Marillion to Mahavishnu
Mars Volta to Man
Prog has it all.
|
Posted By: lightbulb_son
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:32
|
I don't think prog is hated. Just for the everyday music listener, it's either too complex, or too pretentious, or "useless instrumental w**king". It takes a certain kind of person to truly appreciate prog in my opinion. It's not for everybody. ------------- When the world is sick Can't no one be well But I dreamt we were all beautiful and strong 
|
Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:54
|
Prog is not hated anymore, it was for a long time though. Just friday night I watched Muse (not fully prog but quite good) featuring as the main act on Joolz Holland's show on the BBC. I think the tide is turning, back to more sophisticated music in the popular arena. I think we will live to see a full revival of Prog quite soon! ------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: aspinosa
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 22:59
|
because its require patient to understand, its like classical music or jass. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 23:05
In the popular arena perhaps (gak!) but is also possible we are living in that time now, or at least in a kind of silver age of prog second only to the 70s. I think the last ten years has seen a great prog rebirth without being retro. Enjoy it now, while you can |
Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 23:11
I'm doing that  fully! ------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: tardis
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 23:16
How could anyone not like prog? 
|
Posted By: Ridge
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 23:21
|
Prog hated? by who? I think you would have to go elsewhere to find answers to this question, you won´t find any prog haters here! or am I wrong? ------------- Discipline is never an end in it self, only a means to an end. |
Posted By: barbs
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 23:25
|
Musical complexity, song length, fusion of musical ideas - all those things and more probably. The other point is that prog in the early 70s, late 60s, was not hated but considered desirable by alot of people. Look at record sales of your fav prog albums of the period for proof of that. It was much more an organic thing, I believe, that people identified with the evolution of rock from the 60s protest movements into the 'Brave New World', so to speak of an intelligent fusion of rock and classic (The renaissance of modern music). The punk movement in the 70s bred the greatest amount of emnity between the different rock genres because punk in its simplicity was meant to be pure anarchy and they saw prog as part of the establishment for using the ideas they did, in their music, from eras that punks despised and I think this translated, through the help of record companies and producers who operate purely for profit, into a complex division of genres that compete in the global marketplace of ideas for their share of the publics affections. Divisions have always been there and music lovers have always had their fanatical elements. I don't think it is hated so much as either; misunderstood, ignored, considered elitist or paradoxically by some fans - enjoyed just to be considered unique.
Prog doesn't get the mainstream radio play, generally because of song length and popularity so for a vast majority it is unheard of. Lets face it, there are some prog fans who would drop their fav artists if they became universally popular. They would see it as a sell out because they don't believe that the average music listener has the intelligence to understand and appreciate the type of music they listen to. That though, says more about that person than it does about the average music listener. ------------- Eternity |
Posted By: Masque
Date Posted: November 05 2006 at 23:51
prog ... well I have been asking around and most people hate it .. not sure why that is maybe its because its a little bit hard to grasp for most . anyway I don`t care I love most prog (not all) and I think most people are bumbling fools who pay good money for Paris Hilton cds 
------------- |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 00:00
|
Prog is not hated... I think is ignored in a few ways:
IGNORED by people, and this because it's a difficult, elaborate style of rock... and most people when they think "rock" they think Elvis, Beatles, Stones, and stuff like that (about Beatles: they'll be thinking about the love me do beatles...)... they think something funny, something with pure kinetic energy, something SENSUAL (remember the "rock musician" figure is always a crazy, women-machine guy).... people don;t know or can't get the idea of a rock played by not-crazy musicians, with songs that maybe won;t make you dance (for sure)... with songs that have like 8 different parts instead of the usual three...with songs with solos longer than the usual same-melody-as-the-vocal-melody pop-rock solo....with songs that last sometimes up to 10 TIMES what a usual rock track lasts.... played by musicians who are not larger-than-life figures....so common people just DON't know (or if they know, they probably WON't accept) the idea of a complicated, elaborated rock....
As is ignored by regular rock fans, it will also be ignored by LABELS... I mean mainstream (Inside Out is not mainstream....Elektra, Sony, Virgin... that's MAINSTREAM)...... the time when Yes, genesis made millions is a thing of the past... so if ignored by labels, it will continue to be ignored by people...and the circle will go on and on....and also, if not commercial, radios won't play it (besides, what kind of advertising can you put on in your radio to be able to keep it on the air if you have to wait more than 10 minutes in between??)... the time when radios played Yes and Genesis is long gone...so, MTV (Mentally-challenged TeleVision) won't play it...
IGNORED by the press... by the music press, for three reasons:
a) the most educated musical press will have problems accepting the idea of a GOOD (musically speaking) rock.... most educated musicologists are trained in classcial, jazz...for most of them every style of pop music (pop as in POPular, not as in POP Madonna) is utter crap (and compared to classical, most of them are)....so they don't have in their mindset the idea of elaborated rock...and they choose to ignore it even before having a chance to know it (and again, those in the press when Yes and genesis were around are long gone)....
b) In relation to commercial values, if prog doesn't sell, if prog is not advertised, nor played in radios...the press is owned by the same people that own the giant labels... so it's just obvious that they will write about SELLABLE music, and not about some crazy music-for-music's-sake weird thing like prog....
c) The press in magazines like rolling Stone are not mostly musicologists, and they choose to dispise prog for it being "pretensious, overblown, etc"....because: 1) let's give it to them: prog is rock PRETENDING TO BE SOMETHING BETTER than it originally was (rock)... and, 2) imagine comparing the latest release by Beyonce to BE by Pain of Salvation?? it would make the little poppy (poopy) thing look like ....WHAT IT IS...FACTORY MADE MUSIC (there's someone around that may like that concept...)......
So my point is, prog is not hated, just ignored....
|
Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 00:13
|
Let me put this hopefully succinctly.
Most would vote against or for an amendment or law without ever reading what this law entails. This is the way of most things in life. People want to see things blow up in movies, and they want three minute accessible pop songs they don't have to think about. Nevermind Picasso or French Impressionism, lets just stare at a completely casual and generic painting of a tree with a shadow. Now I'm really entertained...
There's something about remaining stupid that the majority of planet Earth is habitually attracted to.
If you don't understand what I've said, god help you, son.
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 00:51
...They are not attracted to by themselves...
....The ones that make millions want them to.....
|
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 00:59
|
Progressive rock is seen by experienced music critics as tasteless, self-indulgent and excessive, in much the same way that Wagner is seen in classical circles. Music for teenagers, the aural equivalent of childhood foods, all brightly coloured but without lasting nutritional value.
The irony is this is almost exactly how followers of prog rock describe the pop scene. |
Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 01:03
|
Perhaps there's an element of fooling here on the part of the rich thieves, but on the other hand trash does sell MILLIONS. That means millions of people willfully go out and purchase the junk we all find so repugnant here, like Beyonce or Brittany Spears for example. People convince themselves they are attracted to this, and that is a bigger factor than if they truly are attracted to this or not, in my opinion.
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 01:17
Like in everything, most people want the easy way out....and they don;t want to search for music, they don't want to deal with complicated music, they don't care for lyrics that don't always speak about how A loves B and how A would love to F**K B or how rich A is so B is impressed.... lyrics about the nature of man? lyrics about a world beyond?? Please! That's difficult to digest for I-want-everything-already-cooked consumist people....
let's remember the downfall of prog rock in a commercial way happened at the boom of radio, mtv and the final explosion of cable tv....better ways of advertising and selling...better ways to make millions.... consumism.... what has thoughtful music have to do with easy-selling music? Have you seen what the grammys are? Most of the people there talk about "this artist sold 100000 millions of copies"...."this album sold out the first day"........ so even pop's music award are not for quality, are for commercial success....
And what place does prog have in a commercial atmosphere like that?
None. So we better keep on listening and keep it alive.
Because other people won't. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 02:42
|
Prog isn't really hated.What was really hated were the people who took it all far too seriously.I love all the anecdotes about prog.These all happened:
Flying pig shot down by RAF for being a danger to aircraft
Keyboard player eats curry during live performance
Singer plays flute standing on one leg
Half ton drum kit collapses stage
...and many others
It was a 'stupid' ridiculous over the top movement played by musicians with egos the size of skscrapers and with keyboard stacks that could have been a menace to low flying aircraft.But it was also darn good fun.Like a big kiddies playground for talented musicians with an over bloated sense of self importance.
|
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 02:53
And you see? That's exactly what the Moody Noobs are all about...
(pulls out acoustic guitar)
C'mon everyone! Gather round the bonfire, hold hands, and let's all sing Dancing With the Moonlit Knight! ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 03:02
| If people can't understand something, they become afraid of it and in some cases hate it. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 03:34
|
- Most people who listen to rock music prefer simple, traditional tunes. As the British author Jonathan Coe recently said (in an excellent article on the Canterbury scene) their brains aren't 'wired' to enjoy prog.
- The above comes with inverse snobbery, especially in the U.K. Rock musicians aren't SUPPOSED to play their instruments well, to play intricate songs, rip off Stravinsky or sing about 'musical boxes' and 'minstrels in the gallery' because such things just have no street cred. Simple and honest emotion, preferably expressed in two chord songs, is considered more 'real'. - Prog musicians haven't helped. Let me give a few examples. (a) I haven't read many defenses of Jon Anderson's lyrics on this website! (b) Singing about hunting girls and heavy horses, while growing beards and smoking pipes AT THE HEIGHT OF PUNK inevitably makes musicians look silly. (c) Using a church organ in an album ONCE may seem impressive, but if you include heavy church organ chords on every possible occasion, it inevitably sounds pompous. (d) The fairy-tale themes of some prog albums, or of their original covers (e.g. Camel's MOONMADNESS, Steve Howe's BEGINNINGS), make a lot of people shudder (me included). |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 06:59
|
You cant dance to it, and dancing is part of the human mating ritual. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Neil
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 07:09
I disagree. You can dance to some of it, but not in a particularly tribal way; more of a hippy style  ------------- When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory. |
Posted By: darren
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 07:10
|
Rock and roll was originally something you danced to and sang along to. It was something spontaneous, dangerous, sexual and rebellious that your parents hated. After Elvis and The Beatles (among others) it became something that could be created by a bunch of guys in their basement or garage. It was fairly simple as it was based on I-IV-V blues music. Prog is not necessarily danced to, especially if there are complex time signitures and changes. (You probably don't want to dance to a fifteen minute song if it's got a very fast tempo anyway). It's not something simple that a bunch of kids could pull off after a few hours of banging away in a garage. The music loses its spontinaety when it's carefully done. Music isn't for everyday people when it has diminished 6th or suspended 13th chord. Let's face it, it's not that rebellious; your parents won't worry about Peter Gabriel or Jon Anderson's influence on you. In a way, prog is no longer rock and roll. (but neither is a lot of forms of rock)
To make an analogy, think of other art forms. Some people will buy a painting because they like it and they have a large, empty wall space. Some will buy a painting and really look over each brush stroke, the composition, the possible meaning in the smallest detail and feel some kind of connection with the artist.
I don't know if people hate prog. They just listen to music for a different reason. Unfortunately in this day and age, if something doesn't apeal to someone, it "sucks" which dismisses any other opinion.
------------- "they locked up a man who wanted to rule the world. the fools they locked up the wrong man." - Leonard Cohen |
Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 07:39
|
I don't hate prog, in fact I quite like some of it. ------------- Proud to be an un-banned member since 2005 |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 07:54
It was good to see Muse on Later, but I suspect the majority of their fans would not see them as a "prog" band, certainly not like the more traditional prog bands.
The question is, why are modern prog bands such as Magenta and Pendragon, totally ignored by this programme? They have practically every other genre of music on it, including totally unknown acts most weeks, but I've never seen a real prog band there (unless I missed it).
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 08:14
Be honest, can you imagine a prog version of Saturday Night Fever, or Dirty Dancing?? er, no! 
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 08:25
I don't know Pendragon or Magenta, but you're right about the absence of true prog bands on LATER. This must have something to do with the 'inverted snobbery' I mentioned earlier. Although the makers of LATER allow a wide range of music, they won't tolerate complex music. I've never seen any jazz-rock on the program either. |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 08:27
|
Prog is not hated simply because most people don't know about it. ------------- sig |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 09:46
|
...because of musicians that dance around the stange on one leg while playing a flute (and take themselves seriously while doing it). -------------  
|
Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 10:21
|
...because the average person has a rather short attention spam Also, because it's dissonant, it has annoying vocals, rhytms that are at times impossible to dance or even headbang to, lyrics that make no sense and compositions that never fit in less than 5 minutes |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 10:24
Bloody hell, you're right! It is awful isn't it. Dont know what I ever saw in it... 
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: artguyken
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 10:24
| why do people dislike jazz, classical or opera? why do I dislike hip-hop, rap or death metal? It's fascinating to think about why some things appeal to some people and not to others, but a buddy in college used to say "one should not dispute matters of taste." For me, I enjoy the intricacies, complexities and beauty of prog, as I do classical and jazz. I think these same things are put-offs to some people. It takes a bit more mental energy to get your head around more complex forms of music which some are not willing to expend. Ah, but there I go sounding like a prog snob... |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 10:37
I think I know someone with that problem...  ------------- sig |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 13:10
Ultra-personal, inintelligible lyrics are part of the prog-ignoring problem as I said in my last post.... first person that actually gets and feels IDENTIFIED by the lyrics from Tales From Topographic Oceans please let me know....for you truly come from a topographic ocean
....I mean, prog-rock is complicated rock, better rock, BUT Still rock....musically-speaking, there aren't many really impossible-to-get-if-you-don't-know-theory bands.... so, why did prog classics feel they could get away with impossible-to-get-if-you-didn't-actually-write-them lyrics???? We all here like to be challenged and read something interesting that's not the usual come-to-bed pop song (not that that kind of lyrics is bad PER SE...only when it's THE ONLY topic).... but please?? Do we really like to read the strange dreams and wanderings of Anderson (and other for that matter) minds???
Music not, LYRICS were pretensious (and still are, a few at least).... because if almost every prog musician is a gifted, if not excellent musician, that doesn't mean they WERE POETS, too..
|
Posted By: Jason_Clement
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 13:46
|
Prog. is not hated. It's misunderstood. Nobody has the attention span for prog. Well, everyone does, but why waste your time when you could just turn on the radio, right? It truly goes back to the media.
Someone getting into music would rather listen to a catchy three minute song with over rated pop lyrics, then a fifteen minute song with lyrics that truly mean something full. Not to mention many people can't stand music without vocals over it, so that throws out most progressive songs (solos/ insturmentals). I believe if the media were to put progressive songs on the air, people would hear it and like it a little more. And slowly, it would just be a part of mainstream music. But do we really want to be mainstream? Progressive music is kinda my sanctity. I can say I listen to prog. proudly, 'cause I know I'm the only one (or one of the few) in my highschool that does. *shrugs* Anyway, carry on ! -- Jason Clement |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 13:47
Terrific, insightful post, Barbs!  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Paradox
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 13:48
|
Does it really matter what people think of it? As long as there are some people out there who revel in it's complexity and beauty I'm happy.
It doesn't bother me that some sections of society dislike prog. It's their loss in the end isn't it? ------------- 
|
Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 14:11
Tell me why Beethoven is remembered? If people were incapable of enjoying something so classic (also not commercial) then I wouldn't be able to reference him.
You can say people don't care, and you'd very often be right, but that doesn't mean they never will. The overwhelming majority of people who buy CD's aren't 35+ years old (typically mature people willing to give inaccessible things and strange art a chance are older).
It's pretty easy to complain about how stupid people are at the grammy's, we all know that here. Part of being human is often times being able to understand things you didn't before, whether it be on a concrete topic or not, you just have to be willing.
The 14 and 17 year olds who constantly buy Backstreet Boys and Usher is what keeps the grammy's going (This is coming from a young person, by the way). If everyone under the age of 25 was killed today, tomorrow there would be a much smaller reason for pop, and everything would be closer to balancing out. You'd be able to hear whatever you want.
So to reiterate, age does not determine what one is able to understand and enjoy, but more often the willingness to understand and enjoy something, such as progressive rock. Most who buy CD's + feed off of MTV/Grammys are young, and have little willingness to purchase something such as progressive rock, but that doesn't mean they won't ever want to. Give it time, give it age.
|
Posted By: Jason_Clement
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 14:13
|
If we do kill off everyone under 25, can we refrain from killing me? xD |
Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 14:28
And me as well
 , I hope so. |
Posted By: Jeff Schu
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 14:39
|
^^^ Sweet I make the cut at 25. Hahaha, I get to live!!! ------------- 
|
Posted By: Jason_Clement
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 14:42
| Damn. =P I'm 10 years off. So. I gotta either throw ten birthday's really fast, or...move to mars. |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 15:07
Well, you said you were into mainstream rap, so probably not.  ------------- sig |
Posted By: Jason_Clement
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 15:08
|
Huh? I hate rap. When did I say that xD
edit: if you're refering to when I said I listened to mainstream stuff as well, I said minus the pop-punk and rap stuff. Rap is the most degrading music in the world.... |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 19:03
|
Not much call for it 'round 'ere, sir.... ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 19:05
|
Well, we probably shouldn't kill of the under 20 age group entirely. After all, they make up the largest set of members on this site! http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=703 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=703 looks to me like the 30-35's aren't holding up their end of the bargain. -------------
|
Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 20:55
Right and wrong.
Generally those who are under 20 on this website have a focus on Post Rock, Progressive Metal, and so forth, as opposed to say, Krautrock, Symphonic Prog, Canterbury, etc. Progressive Metal is a whole lot closer to any MTV, radio station, or commercialization then any other genre on this website. If progressive metal is the strict future of progressive rock, it's dead, as we need diversity to keep a genre like progressive rock living (my opinion). The older age groups usually focus on the traditional progressive rock areas, which is what is made fun of, also hated/ignored by everyday people. This is what the topic is on, ignoring prog. Symphonic prog is ignored allright, excuse the Pink Floyd, Yes, and Genesis.
Who hates Opeth in everyday life? If you find a random person on the street who knows what Dream Theater sounds like, are they going to say "Ewww yuck I hate Dream Theater!!!", now introduce your young-friends to Anglagard or Henry Cow. Good luck!!! Haha.
When understanding why the biggest age-group on this website is younger, rather than older, you must realize they listen to "progressive" music generally of today, that a regular person may be able to relate to, as opposed to progressive rock of the past. Opeth fits right in with the metal crowd, don't they? Of course there many differing prog-acts, but another example is Queensryche. Queensryche had commercial success why for example? These popular progressive acts have no place in this conversation, as they ARE exceptions, and very popular or have been in recent history. Therefore they draw people to this website. I found out about this website a few years ago by searching information on Dream Theater, for example. I wasn't searching for Anglagard, that's for sure.
If everyone above the age of 25 were to be slaughtered today, tomorrow we would all forget the progressive rock sound formed in the 1970's and we would live strictly for the metal. Or at least the numbers would show to be so.
|
Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 21:06
Speak for yourself. Most of the young people I know on this site like both ends of the spectrum. For example, my friend went from listening to Robert Wyatt to Porcupine Tree in one sitting; I, a 16 year old listened to Chicago Transit Authority (which is prog) and then Sigur Ros. I've discovered a lot of prog fans (and people who are generally fans of good music) tend to not view time as a boundary (ex: Yes is an old band, TMV is new). A true fan of music does not listen to one era or even genre of music. They love music, not just prog-metal or post-rock. Most people who join this site are true fans of music. I do agree with you on all other points, but try not to generalize; generalizations tend to not capture the actual majority. -------------
|
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 22:41
|
hell im 19, but ill go from Herbie Hancock (jazz-rock/funk) to The Mars Volta (rediculousness) to Opeth (prog-death metal) to Phish (prog/jam band) to YES (symphonic prog) to Ozric Tentacles (Space rock) in one sitting and not mind. i listen to tons of different styles of music, but i dont care cause it's all good. dont put me in a generalization, i dont even like post-rock. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
|
Posted By: Jason_Clement
Date Posted: November 06 2006 at 23:33
I agree with all that. Minus the fact that I'm 15. And I like some post-rock. But, I'll listen to anything if it's GOOD. Speaking of Ozric Tentacles, I just got one of their CDs. They're crazy good. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 00:40
Not much call for it?...it's the single most popular cheese in the world! |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 04:27
An interesting read, much of this thread 
I don't think prog is hated; more like underexposed and too much like hard work for the general listener.
Using the "trouble and strife" as the barometer (she hates me putting on prog in the car ... but when I'm driving I do get to pick the music ... sometimes):
1. She can't sing along to prog; 2. She can't really bop about to prog ...therefore she's not interested in prog.
When she turns on the radio what does she get: 3 minute pop songs, albeit mostly from an older era, because that is what sells nappies, Coca-Cola, motor cars, tampons, etc, therefore it is what the commercial radio stations play.
I think having been exposed to prog when I was in my early teens (before pop-type stuff had a chance to get it's hooks into me) prog has stayed with me. (It may have been put on a back burner during different times in my life as priorities changed but it has always been there.)
Hopefully my kids will hold the prog banner high in the future! My 9-year old daughter loves Pink Floyd (or so she tells me) and I do catch her listening to PF quite regularly as she sits at the computer; Sons 1 and 3 seem to be taken by instrumental music, so much of what I play from the instrumental or minimalist lyric prog field gets stuck into their computer playlists; as for son 2, he is into prog metal (especially DT) and metal in general, plus good old classic rock. He is playing the guitar and bass ... he has played in one small gig at school doing something I can 't recall from System Of A Down, plus Sabbath's Iron Man and Purple's Smoke On The Water. I see him as a possible provider of prog music in a few years time ... fingers crossed! Anyway, hopefully my playing of loads of prog and them seeing the myriad prog CD's I buy has seen the seed of prog appreciation planted very close to home!
I get into a lot of classic rock, too. I don't mind some pop and punk. I dig quality blues and jazz. I have a few classical CD's that get a spin from time to time. And I get into prog in a fairly big way. Hopefully this diversity makes for a reasonably balanced music appreciation, and evidence to my children and their circles of friends that all types of music can live together if you take the time to enjoy it ... and that some music (read "prog") needs more time to be appreciated.
I think I was going to make three points at the start of this post and my have lost the plot. It must be the grey hair affecting the grey matter!
------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: artguyken
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 07:36
|
I think what you shared, T.Rox, pretty well sums it up.This reminds me of something my daughter (27) said to me a couple of
years ago. "ya know, Dad, the thing about your music is that the songs
don't stay the same from beginning to end." This is why she doesn't
like it. It's part of what I do like about it. My other kids don't care for prog, either. On a different branch of the musical tree, I was listening to some Pat Metheny and daughter #2 asked derisively, "what do you LIKE about that?!?" For her, it was cacophonous, but for me, I was hearing the intricacies of the interplay between instruments. I'll go back to my comparison of prog to classical or jazz, because of the complexity of the music. I find a very strong relationship there, musically. |
Posted By: mrpink
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 09:48
| Maybe because during the seventies, progressive rock was (one of ) the main genre, and when it came to an end with the coming of the punk, for many people it was a kind of relief to get rid of that difficult hardly enjoyable genre. |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 12:11
I think you'd be surprised. I'm 23 and a good portion of the music I listen to is before my time. Actually, I own more Frank Zappa cds than any other artist. I think a number of the younger users on this site are somewhat even-handed when it comes to listening to older music as well. After all, almost any user on the forum is here because they have at least a small sense of musical adventure. -------------
|
Posted By: N Ellingworth
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 12:18
| Erm I'm 19 and to be honest I don't 'get' Prog Metal at all, to me it mostly sounds like cheesy power metal or it relies on growling/shouting vocals which I detest. |
Posted By: artguyken
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 12:57
|
I'm right there with you, N Ellingsworth! (except I'm 50). I listen to the classic bands, but also the new stuff. Prog came along during my teen years. I've always loved it, though not all of it (any more than any other genre), the metal side being a prime example and certainly the primal screaming vocals are a major turnoff. Someone earlier suggested that prog was mainstream in the '70s. Not so. It was pretty much a sub-culture of its own then, as it is now. Occasionally a prog band would have a "cross-over" hit on the radio, but it was generally ignored by the public at large. The thing we DID have then were radio stations with much more open formats, though mostly late at night. They'd play entire albums. That's how I first heard Phil Keaggy's "The Master & the Musician" which anyone who likes Ant Phillip's "Geese & the Ghost" should check out. (got to see Keaggy live last Friday night. Excellent show) Many people seem to simply like whatever the DJ will play. I don't know how else to explain the popularity of many artists (and I use the term loosely) today. Repetition on the radio waves breeds familiarity & popularity. Prog doesn't fit with today's radio, because the songs are too long and they can't play enough commercials. Hurray for internet radio! But still, it's a niche market. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 13:39
|
Prog is rarely hated, people just ignore the existence of our beloved genre, we live in a fast society that tends to find the easy alternative, if we have fast food…..why not fast music? Pop fills this requisite, you listen, like it the first time, you get bored soon and find another fast artist to follow for a couple of months, musical industry has been promoting this for years. On the contrary, it takes months or years to love some Prog albums and when you get them is a life commitment. Prog fan rarely stops loving their favorite artists works, Music Industry doesn’t like that because if it doesn’t sell in the first months and bores almost immediately there is not business. People will never care for Prog it’s too hard, in mainstream music you just listen, in Prog the listener has to make a bit of effort in understanding and people don’t want that in their music or movies (How can you explain that movies like Spider Man fill the theaters while really good films are rarely noticed?). Now there are a few people that really hated Prog like some radical Punks who saw Prog as a betrayal for the 3 minutes song with chorus-verse-chorus structure, but hat’s because Prog represents the opposite of their musical concept. When I was in the University, the only people that an opinion about Prog were Punks (Already talked about them) and Metalheads, which were just the opposite, they respected Prog because they hated mainstream Disco as we did, we used to play poker at my house while listening Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin, Yes and ELP and they were really informed because as in our case, their music was for a determined group of people, sometimes we jammed with them and used to play Metal and Prog songs (Well try to play would be more honest) because they were really open to alternative forms of music. POP/Disco fans simply ignored us, they were very busy buying white suits with black shirts and trying to dance as Travolta (Wow this mania survived until the mid 80’s), Prog just was outside of their conception of music. People like what they listen, being there’s no Prog in radios, it’s hard for today’s kids to like Prog, they have Rap and Hip Hop in TV, radio, school, etc, that’s what they are going to like. But as people can’t like what they don’t know, they rarely hate what they don’t know, so it’s hard to find people who hate Prog, at the most they don’t care about Prog. To love or hate something, you have to know it in first place and most people don't know about Prog.. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 13:41
I was going to add something, but after reading that, I realize that there is nothing for me to add. The only prog I have ever liked and now don't care for (though I don't dislike it) is the Alan Parsons Project, my first dip into prog.
Also, I'm lucky enough to live in an area where there is a radio station that plays music from the 60s and 70s, and occasionally the 80s, and they play some Tull and Floyd, though I haven't listened to them enough to know if they play other prog as well. They've played the Moody Blues, though, from what others have told me.
|
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 14:44
I must back artguyken on his stand. Prog wasn't mainstream, at any point. Actually straight hard-rock wasn't mainstream in the 70s, can you imagine that? Neither were blues, folk, and very few classic rock acts were actually mainstream. They may have been the mainstream of rock, but nothing more. Just take a look at this playlist of a "Top Hits" cd covering the year of 1972 (what a year for prog!), based on the actual charts: 01 - Gilbert O'Sullivan - Clair 02 - Lobo - I'd Love You To Want Me 03 - Nilsson - Without You 04 - Daniel Boone - Beautiful Sunday 05 - Helen Reddy - I Am Woman 06 - Billy Paul - Me And Mrs. Jones 07 - Tony Christie - Amarillo 08 - Looking Glass - Brandy (You're A Fine Girl) 09 - Chicory Tip - Son Of MyFather 10 - Don McLean - American Pie 11 - Sammy Davis Jr - The Candy Man 12 - Johnny Nash - I Can See Clearly Now 13 - Bill Withers - Lean On Me 14 - America - Horse With No Name 15 - Alice Cooper - School's Out 16 - Hot Butter - Popcorn This may lead to the idea that most good music wasn't, isn't and won't ever be mainstream. Could be. Still, there's something strange; if you check the audience numbers for prog or straight rock events in the 70s the result is amaizing - how could those non-mainstream bands gather tens of thousands people for a concert? Was this some kind of counter-mainstream? This could be an answer. The edgiest example is Woodstock for the 60s music. Several non-tophits bands gathered half a million people for a three days concert. The playlist for the 1969 cd, the year of Woodstock, goes like this: 01 - Elvis Presley - In The Ghetto 02 - Zager & Evans - In The Year 2525 03 - The Move - Blackberry Way 04 - Thunderclap Newman - Something In The Air 05 - Amen Corner - If Paradise Is Half As Nice 06 - Henri Mancini & His Orchestra - Love Theme From Romeo 07 - Bobby Gentry - I'll Never Fall In Love Again 08 - Fifth Dimension - Aquarius 09 - Steve Wonder - Yester Me Yester You Yersterday 10 - Desmond Dekker - Israelites 11 - Peter Sarstedt - Where Do You Go To 12 - Sly & The Family Stone - Everyday People 13 - Tommy James & The Shondells - Crimson And Clover 14 - Tommy Roe - Dizzy 15 - The Archis - Sugar Sugar 16 - Steam - Na Ha Hey Hey Hey Goodbye Any idea? Answers like artguyken's are good, but don't cover the width of such a huge problem. My hypothesis is that in the 60s people became aware as (biological, social, cultural, political) generation throug pop-culture, especially through it's music. They bonded, connected their common goals and ideals, by relating to the same symbols - and music was the most important. This doesn't mean their music was made with such goals. Most of us, like myself in the 90s, discovered it later just as great music, without being aware of the mentioned corelations. The secret of that era may have been the combination of those specific attitude&music, I think that made it all such a phenomenon. How about the 70s then? I think there's a great difference; their approach to music and pop-culture was not ethical, like in the 60s, but aesthetical. They made great music for the sake of making music and for their own pleasure. They dressed, behaved, lived in extravagant ways, for the sake of being extravangat. There was quite a lot hedonism into all that (anti-ethical attitude, I mean). Was this a way of life that was best expressed through the 70s music and was there a generation that felt like that and related for that to the music we are talking about (rock & especially prog)? I would incline to say yes, after hearing people saying the 70s generation grew tired of the politicalðical debate and just wanted to fell good so it let itself be, but I have no final answer as I live in a totally different era&country. How about our days? Of course prog is not hated, there is just a totally different context. People have no more reasons to relate in mass proportions to good music. People do not have any more common social goals to express or symbolise through some music, though good music is still being made as always. Our society doesn't generate common goals and ideal any more, doesn't generate "generations". There hasn't been any social contents music since street rap; now we have hiphop and "r&b" and "soul" (they call them like that, I don't know why...). The only ideology lasting that keeps stirring young people is in fact generated by the same 60s generation: ecology. There isn't even an anti-ideology attitude, like it was in the 70s. This is my explanation. Our era is the normal way to be, the 60s and the 70s were the exception. We should get accustomed to that and stop complaining, or do something great, "epical". What are the standings? ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
|
Posted By: Kid-A
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 15:46
because people talk this kind of pretentious bollucks about it to make it seem superior ------------- 
|
Posted By: artguyken
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 15:50
| A quick aside, regarding the songs of '72. Bill Hubauer, of the prog-tinged band, Ten Point Ten, does a very nice proggy rendition of "I Can See Clearly Now" |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 16:14
I agree with Aspinosa 100%, I required several years to get into Trespass and even more to understand Gentle Giant...THIS MEANS PATIENCE.
If I had one buck for each time I read here or in other forums people saying it took them a lot of time to get into one determined album or band, I would be rich.
Aspinoza is not comparing Prog with Classic or Jazz in terms of quality only saying that this genres are not designed to be instant fashion as POP, you need to listen them understand their music and sometimes acquire the taste.
But once you get it...you are doomed for ever.
Iván -------------
|
Posted By: artguyken
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 16:16
|
bullocks? how so? prog tends to have greater complexity in its construction, pure and simple. does that make it superior? in some minds, I suppose it does. which is why lovers of classical and jazz are also thought to be snobs. are they? someone who is passionate about any particular form of music, who prefers one type over another is easily labeled a snob by those who don't share those tastes. of course, it's also easy to put down other forms of music as inferior, rather than chalking it up to simple matters of taste. my tastes are pretty far flung, though there are certainly types of music that don't appeal to me in the least. However, I do love a good "hooky," well crafted simple song. Complexity does not necessarily make something better. some prog hides a lack of true originality or lack of melody by wrapping things in complex instrumentations. I'll pass on that stuff and go for the simple pop song (though it's likely to be one from 20 years or more ago) |
Posted By: N Ellingworth
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 16:24
You make it sound like a bad thing. Doomed to spend all your money on it is probably more appropriate. |
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 16:37
|
I think it's becuase a lot of it's fans acted like they had superior music taste to everyone else. "Are music is art, unlike your pop music that commercial and simplistic," and "I'm listening to real music, not three chord garbage anyone can play." I think it was that silly elitist attitude that gave prog a bad name, not the music itself. To me prog isn't any better than other types of music and has no more artistic credibility. It's just a different type of rock that happens to have a lot of bands that I love. -------------  
|
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 16:44
Exacly the point I try to make. -------------
|
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 17:24
Which was really what i was trying to say.Most prog is 'pretentious' and by extension so are many of the fans.When you read comments along the lines of 'it takes 10 years to appreciate the full glory of Selling England By The Pound' then its easy to see why the average person runs a mile from a prog fan
|
Posted By: artguyken
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 17:26
|
Which was really what i was trying to say.Most prog is 'pretentious' and by extension so are many of the fans.When you read comments along the lines of 'it takes 10 years to appreciate the full glory of Selling England By The Pound' then its easy to see why the average person runs a mile from a prog fan [/QUOTE]LOL! That's really funny! Man, at this rate, I don't think I'll live long enough to fully appreciate all my CDs!!!! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 18:41
Now that's some truth.... yes, most of us are pretensious (I have to admit I tend to inferiorize other's people tastes in music....)..... But it's the nature of man... if you have around you lots of crap but in an overwhelming amount, and your stuff is better, you tend to make it clear to everyone else...it's a situation of pure intellectual power...that's what you're aiming for.... intellectual power over mass-aceptance-power.... remember many people will defend pop music saying "it sells millions, your music sells hundreds..." and against that attack, ????
|
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 18:59
|
I want everyone to consider what life would be like if prog were loved to the extent that POP is now. Every band would start doing it, it would all start sounding the same, and it would become boring. It's better that it's relatively unpopular.
And it doesn't take ten years to get into Selling England, if you haven't gotten into an album in ten years, you're either never going to get into it, or you've not listened to it enough. |
Posted By: apinagez
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 21:17
|
I don't care about what people think.
Listening to prog is better than eating a nice, hot, full of cheese and delicious toppings pizza. That's good enough music for me. |
Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 21:36
Hey man, I'm with you. Out of my top 5 favorite bands they are all from the 60's/70's, and I'm younger than you! But you and I are in the minority in reality. On this website, maybe or maybe not I cannot say for sure. If you poll the youth, generally they will stick to modern pop, rap, r&b, soul, heavy metal, grunge, alternative rock, and so on. When I say generally, I mean the majority (Go find out for yourself if you do not believe me!!!!). Basically, they enjoy music of the post-70's era that we live in today most of all. You can't deny this entirely, especially not in a western nation.
These kids need a reason to come out of their little boxes and experience music like Frank Zappa, or other aged classics (prog or not) and without a path showing them the way they are most likely to never experience what you and I have. What reason do they have? It's not even necessarily their fault at times, it's ignorance.
The mind of an adolescent or toddler will usually accept what is given to them if they can mentally store it in the mold their culture has created in their minds for them. If rap (or any other now popular genre) were the only music on the radio, that could very likely be all many youths of today speak of when it comes to music. Real shame.
I'll have to disagree with you on one thing though, the site is not even. Most of the time this forum focuses on progressive metal rather than anything else. I'm not a metal-hater by a long shot, I just wish things were more even-handed, as you say. It's just constructive criticism, it's improvement I want. Not to whine all day.
|
Posted By: artguyken
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 21:47
|
I've been listening to it for about 35 years and am not about to stop just because it's not getting airplay. I agree with whoever it was who pointed out what it would be like if prog were accepted by the masses and played to death on the radio. There's a certain joy in finding music that not everyone is listening to. I remember a certain sense of disappointment when Chariots of Fire made it big on the airwaves. I'd been enjoying the music of the obscure Greek, Vangelis Papathanasiou. Suddenly EVERYBODY was saying Vangelis. It's silly, I know, but how many of us don't feel some satisfaction in knowing of all this great music that is not being played ad naseum on the radio? Yet, we all tend to think our own taste is excellent and that there is something lesser of the musics we don't like or find detestible. I'm glad to have communities like this one where we can talk about it, even disagree on what it oughta be called. Prog's just the label I'm most comfortable with, though I've had others refer to it as "weirdo" music. (I'm not sure if weirdo was more attached to the music or the one listening) |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 21:48
|
i dont understand, all these people that said it took them a while to get into Gentle Giant. Am I the only one who got into them almost right away? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
|
Posted By: NotSoKoolAid
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 21:50
You have a gift.
|
Posted By: artguyken
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 23:42
I need to give GG another shot. I loved them 30 years ago, but found they left me cold when I tried listening recently. BTW -- if you like Gentle Giant, I recommend looking up Advent. Cantus Firmus has some nice GG tinges. |
Posted By: artguyken
Date Posted: November 07 2006 at 23:46
Well, I am not a lover of metal, prog or otherwise. I'm not fond of harshness in either instrumentation or vocalization. I'm much more interested in other forms of music. So, I'm one grain of sand to fall onto the scales to help balance things... at least I will be much more interested in discussing other avenues of prog. |
Posted By: gong
Date Posted: November 08 2006 at 03:57
i agree.
rgds!
|
Posted By: endlessepic
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 02:29
| Muse and Radiohead are two bands that are really bringing Prog rock back to the arena, if not Genesis-esque, they are definatly prog. But it takes someone who is willing to be absorbed by the music not just throw it in their car while they are takin a joy ride downtown. Some people find the aforementioned bands good to rock out to, and therefore listen to them, and then realize it is deep stuff. Who knows it could lead to more examination. |
Posted By: Heff
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 02:48
I listened to my first Gentle Giant song (Wreck) a week ago, and it got me instantly hooked. Two listenings of Acquiring the Taste and I decided they were one of my new favourite bands. Since then I've listened to their debut (which I loved), Octopus (which took 3 or 4 listens to really get into) and The Power and the Glory. So no, you aren't quite the only one who got right into them.
|
Posted By: magnus
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 13:43
|
it's in the human instincts to seek immediate satisfaction. that's why a lot of people don't bother taking the time to really listen through progressive music, because they could reach immediate "satisfaction" through turning on the radio and hearing some catchy tune.
also, as a lot of people already said, prog isn't hated, it's ignored. I guess like someone said, prog isn't as profitable as pop, hip hop, r&b etc.. people hardly get exposed to prog through the biggest medias(TV, radio), thus they will not be motivated to 'dig deeper' into it. |
Posted By: rainbow111
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 14:20
|
I hate when people say I'm a hippie for liking Deep Purple (Some say Purple is prog)...People are sort of, well stupid.
I just think people lost any real sence in music...
------------- It's got to be slow Taking love the only way It's got to just flow Making love and taking time to let it grow |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 21 2006 at 02:15
|
Deep Purple = hippie? Interesting, I didn't realize that. Great avatar, though (I far prefer Dio-Rainbow to DP).
------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: giantenemycrab
Date Posted: November 21 2006 at 13:27
| I'm glad it's not as popular, because then it would become all about the money and popularity instead of the great music. |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: November 21 2006 at 22:48
|
Pretensious?.... Britney Spears is pretensious!! she's pretending to sing hahaha... don't I make a point here?.... surely there are some pretensious "proggy" bands around... but to call people like Keith Emerson "pretensious" is a bit ridiculous... he's not pretending to be a pianist... he's a great pianist.... classical pianist at that... perhaps a bit show-offy but not pretending to be what he isn't... he is it.
I think the word "pretensious" is a bit worn out and misused. Overblown... maybe; but never pretensious!!! ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: progadicto
Date Posted: November 22 2006 at 17:47
|
Hated???? I don't think so... Taking some Duke's lines... You kill what you fear and you fear what you don't understand... When people understand what is progrock they stpo to fear and underestimate and begin to enjoy and love... ------------- ... E N E L B U N K E R... |
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: November 22 2006 at 17:48
|
ummm....U2 are so prentious they make prog look pretty modest. -------------
|
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: November 22 2006 at 18:02
|
it is not hated.it is complicated,it deserves more attention,dedication,it is not for everyone.many people doesn't understand it, that's why they ignore prog.
------------- www.last.fm/user/angelmk 
|
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: November 22 2006 at 22:43
Yes, and pretensiouness is just trying to appeal much more than what you really are... U2 wanted to fool people into thinking they're so intelligent because they talk about the holocaust and they used atmospherics...On the other hand... while Brittney pretends, Mariah Carey really does sing amazingly... even so, ego is a talent-killer ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 22 2006 at 22:47
Yes, because traveling to Sarajevo and raising sunds to rebuild the city and help out the poor, raising millions upon millions for AIDS and poverty, and constantly meeting with world leaders to try and solve such problems is just an elaborate ploy to fool people for some causes they've pretended to believe in for 30 years.
Seems logical to me
* *Indicates sarcasm. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: November 23 2006 at 14:23
They pretend to make mind-boggling music, but I'm not arguing good intentions or charisma, I'm arguing music and lyrics... fans around think of them as serious musicians with the most clever lyrical issues, even though there are tons of musicians who make far better music and write far better lyrics than them. Their fans think of U2 as the most inventive band, perhaps because ignorance blocked their vision to far better bands. ------------- Jesus Gabriel |