Pat Metheny... Prog?
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Topic: Pat Metheny... Prog?
Posted By: Sweetnighter
Subject: Pat Metheny... Prog?
Date Posted: January 13 2005 at 23:13
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I was listening to a Pat Metheny record tonight, live record Travels,
and I got to wondering how Metheny is perceived in the rock world. Also
he's always categorized as a jazz guitarist, his music has always
walked along that border between jazz and rock, often swaying more
towards jazz, and other times more towards rock. His work with Lyle
Mays has produced some fantastic music. Owning five or six Metheny
albums, I'm disappointed in his lack of musical development over the
years, but he's still done some amazing work. From Bright Size Life,
his 1976 release with bass virtuoso Jaco Pastorius to his latest
release, Speaking of Now, with his five-man group, I feel that although
the content and stylistic elements have changed, the actual sounds that
Metheny and his band members employ haven't changed that much, ever.
Lyle sticks to the same keysounds and Metheny is attached to the
effects he is attached to. Granted his group now has a trumpeter, I
still would expect a little more textural change than has been seen. Now, question I prompted, and of course the favorite progarchives question, "is X prog?" Well, in many ways he is, and in many ways he isn't. For one, he doesn't fully embrace the "rock sound" in the way that other Jazz-Rock groups such as the Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return to Forever did, but thats not to say that he isn't a rock musician. He employs distortion and a multitude of effects. I think his music is progressive more in its length and structure. "The Epic" from American Garage and "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls" would in many minds qualify as prog epics. Although half of the time these pieces are more electric jazz than jazz-rock, there are certainly many progressive elements to the music... unusual time signatures, mood and tempo variations, etc. Maybe some would disqualify him as prog because of his outspoken musical opinions, but then again some would point to that and say, "oh, well he has a big ego and a guitar, must be prog." Others might point to his disposition towards improvisational complexity over compositional complexity and say "thats definitely jazz, not prog," while others may point that out and say that his improvisational ability and his musical virtuosity is an element that leads to his music being prog. Obviously no one single attribute there mentioned defines a musician as prog, but together, one could certainly build a strong case for Metheny being a prog musician. BTW, he's just released a new album that I read some reviews of in Downbeat magazine. Its 68 mins long, one epic piece called The Way Up, divided into a 5 minute intro, and then 25 min movement, 20 min movement, and 15 min movement. Is that prog? ------------- I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
Replies:
Posted By: Arioch
Date Posted: January 13 2005 at 23:22
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Who? ------------- Knight of the Swords Lord of Entropy Duke of Chaos |
Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: January 13 2005 at 23:32
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way off, though one of his releases Song X has a
song on it that has a climax in it that sounds like it came off of Gates of Delirium. A feat rarely achieved and a better example of progressive music than alot of jazz rock fusion artist ever made. I just have a hard time listening to all the individual soloing before they hit it. 
not your typical PM release |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: January 13 2005 at 23:33
Nope, BAFJG! ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Sweetnighter
Date Posted: January 13 2005 at 23:39
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Oh come on! First off, if you haven't picked up any Metheny albums, do it. Secondly, what does BAFJG mean? DallasBryan, what album is it that you're thinking of, do you know? ------------- I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: January 13 2005 at 23:45
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Pat Metheny
Song X(its an album, nothing like anything else from him) with Ornette Coleman Jack DeJohnette Charlie Haden Forgot what the style is but Ornette was the master. Everybody solos extremely fast in different directions, like they are all on different songs. Then when they all hit the same stride, everyones at full speed and its on. Really good stuff for avant garde jazz heads. But you gotta really concentrate and listen critically to each musician and hear what they are doing. Its the musicians music. DeJohnette and Haden are legends in modern abstract jazz circles. |
Posted By: Pixel Pirate
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 03:51
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No bloody way. Absolutely not! Great guitarist but about as prog as...as...something that's not prog at all. ------------- Odi profanum vulgus et arceo. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 04:11
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It's some jazz rock
Yeah, it's prog in my opinion. |
Posted By: sigod
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 04:21
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'Song X' along with 'Zero Tolerance For Silence' are excellent if somewhat difficult listening. It's amazing that these albums are produced by the same man that made tracks like 'The Bat Pt 1 & 2' or 'Across The Heartland'. A wonderful guitarist/composer/improviser.
------------- I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision. - Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill |
DallasBryan wrote:
Posted By: Beau Heem
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 04:48
Obviously, we are talking about free jazz, a rather difficult line of music... My fav free jazz record is the legendary "Dancing in your Head" by Ornette Coleman... Cheers -Beau ------------- --No enemy but time-- |
Posted By: SoundscapeMN
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 05:00
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Song X is too experimental for me. The title track has some melodic elements, but overall..it's just an experiment that I doubt I'd ever go for. OTOH, a lot of his stuff is highly melodic. My fav being First Circle, particularly the 2 tracks Yolanda, You Learn and the title track. In some ways it reminds me of Genesis. The vocal harmonies from Pedro Aznar on those numbers are incredible. is he Prog?..not exactly, is he Jazz?..a form maybe...he's really just diverse. Jazz-Rock would be my best description, but not like Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return to Forever exactly. He's almost like Jazz-Rock-World Music, or World/Ethnic Fusion. I love how he uses that synclaviar-synth guitar that sounds like a trumpet. I am likely finally going to see him live next month Kyle
------------- http://rateyourmusic.com/SoundscapeMN/"> 
http://last.fm/user/SoundscapeMN http://allmediareviews.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 05:40
| Perhaps more specifically The Pat Metheny Group - since albums released purely as Pat Metheny releases normally tend to be straight jazz. So the PMG, as 3rd or 4th wave jazz rock, should be included (most of the ECM catalogue - PMG, American Garage, Travels, Off Ramp etc., less of the post-ECM catalogue) then by default yes - up there with Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return to Forever. Song X was Metheny's opportunity to play with one of his heroes Ornette Coleman - so that album is far more avante jazz than anything else. However, check out the outstanding Root Of Coincidence (ex Imaginary Day) - new progressive jazz, if ever I heard it. The Way Up, the PMG album out the end of this month, has had rave previews; here the PM Group are are only doing one extended piece - which suggests "concept album" to me. And of course the LP side devoted to the title track of As Witcha Falls....(Metheny & Mays), may readily be called progressive. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 08:37
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Why make that assumption? I have tons of Metheny albums, have been a fan since the 70s, and have seen him live twice. But A Fantastic Jazz Guitarist! (See the poll.) He belongs on a jazz site, not a prog rock one. If it was up to me (but it's not, thank goodness!), no jazz fusion or metal would be here, because this is the sort of thing it leads to. I really like Metheny, but if he is prog, are all of the other 70s-80s jazz artists who use electic instruments, and who I have filed in the jazz section of my collection, therefore prog too? Why not? They are on my compilations with Metheny. C'mon, lets get David Sanborn, The Rippingtons, Special EFX, Passport, Ponty, Lee Ritenour, etc, etc, on here too! I am sick of all this "Is my fave prog?" crap. It NEVER ends! Why is this sort of thing such a critical issue for so many? Two guys (the originators and owners of the site) decide what is on here. (The alternative would be endless arguing.) They are human, not encyclopedias, and likely haven't heard every album in every one of our collections. My advice: deal with it, or start your own website. If people really don't like this site, or the way it is run, or the way in which artists are classified, WHY DON'T THEY LEAVE? (That was not meant for you personally, Sweetnighter, but for all the perpetual complainers -- those who come late to the game, don't find a particular artist, and make angry posts and assumptions about this site, its administration, and its reviewers, without bothering to find out how things work around here. Especially one!) ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 08:54
Yeah but Peter, how would you define Prog? Is there anyone out their who can tell the difference between Hevay Metal and Prog.
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 09:02
 !------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Beau Heem
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 09:45
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I've had a dislike for many progRock sites because they tend to be all
about those ugly guys doing the
who-looks-and-sounds-like-Yngwie-Malmsteen-the-most competition. My opinion is that progressive metal should be nonexistant. Ok, it isn't - so I'm ready to accept that sort of music in a prog site. Although, IMO, almost all prog metal and neo prog bands fall out of the sphere of interesting (or creative) music, they are at least a part of the contemporary prog scene - thus making it impossible to "look the other way" and leave them without notion in such a marvelous site as this (a big and ever-lasting thank you to everyone involved in building this site, and especially to those who've started it in the first place). Furthermore, this isn't a fan-zine. Even though I've joined the forums only recently, I have visited Progarchives for a rather long time (can't remember exactly) to read reviews and search for information about bands and their recording. And I've found lots of stuff that is of great interest to me (along with some disappointments, as well). The sole existance of these forums enables us to talk about groups that aren't mentioned in the "official parts" of the site. Some of these artists may be "prog enough" to be in the "official" listings and others may not. It shouldn't be a question of any importance, whether they are or aren't 1)prog to the extent of being mentioned in the progBand lists 2)any good, 3)Known by any other human being (or animal) on this planet of ours (even though a conversation of one person is kind of dull). We can share ideas about artists/bands here on the forums, and sometimes if we are lucky (or unlucky when it comes to musical styles we are unable to digest) enough, these groups "make it". Love you all. -Beau ------------- --No enemy but time-- |
Posted By: Sweetnighter
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 11:25
Oh I wasn't doubting that you had Metheny albums, but somebody asked "who?" so I was addressing that post as well as yours in my response. And why make a big deal out of it? Alright, the guys who own the site determine what they consider to be prog and they put those groups/musicians in the archives. As a result, those who largely agree with what they put in the archives come to converse with other prog fans on this web forum. Now, does that mean that if somebody has a slightly altered version of what they consider to be prog, that its wrong? In making this poll I wanted to see if anybody else agreed with me on the point that Metheny's group has many progressive rock elements in its music. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm asking for the opinions of others, I'm not trying to claim the site owners as having made some mistake. The other point you made brings up other questions that need discussion, not here though, but in another thread. Is Jazz Fusion a form of Progressive Rock or not? Is "Prog Metal" really prog? Of course we all have our opinions... think that some metal and death-metal groups included on the site don't qualify for what I consider to be prog, whereas some jazz-rock artists I enjoy listening to, in my mind's eye (or ear) play progressive rock... of course thats just my opinion! Others are entitled to theirs and I'm not trying to challenge anybody. ------------- I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 12:59
There are metal bands that embrace the same forward thinking attitudes of prog rock bands. Very few of them are catergorised as prog metal though, because the majority of popular "progressive" metal bands dedicate themselves to playing as fast as possible, rather than being progressive. While I do like Dream Theater, I'd have to point the finger at them for inspiring so much empty rubbish in other bands who like to think they're prog. The more original among metal bands tand to get lumped in as "experimental" or "avant-garde", because at least so far, neither of those tags has been filled to the brim with soundalikes (as far as I know...) |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 13:17
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^ Thanks for the cool-headed response, Sweetnighter. As I've long said here, what we each like/dislike/call "prog" is a highly subjective thing, on which there will NEVER be consensus. Sometimes I just weary of all the "is this prog?" "who is the best?" type threads -- because of the subjectivity involved, I find them to be basically pointless. Still, as you suggest, such can provide for "interesting," if passionate, discussion. As Maani would say: peace! ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 13:30
And you know my feelings here Peter. Jazz rock dating from before Soft Machine Volume 2 and Third, was originally gathered under the prog rock umbrella - I don't remember anybody arguing the toss back then. Keith Emerson did jazz (e.g. his interpretion of Brubeck's Rondo), and used jazz musicians to augment the Nice. How many of those Hammond organ based prog bands of the early 70's relied on jazz breaks for solos - aspiring Jimmy Smiths??? If rock could be fused with serious music, folk,, world, to give variants of prog rock - why not with jazz? I think the problem is that we've got sloppy, using the broader and vaguer term 'jazz fusion', which more often as not has little or nothing to do with rock rhythms or whatever. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 13:38
My only real issue with that, Dick, is the old "where does it all end?" sentiment. Bela Fleck? David Sanborn? Miles' (electric) 80s output? etc, etc.... ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 13:51
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 14:32
I'm coming to think there are start and cut off points for some sub-genres of prog, if not all. (I've said somewhere in these archives, that some of Yes's output should be banned from here, simply because it don't progress in any way). Krimson's In The Court and the first Renaissance albums were probably seen as the first clear-cut prog rock albums - in truth, we are vaguer about the Moodies' Days Of Future Passed (that inclusion is more hindsight beit from 2 or 3 years). So when Nice went occasionally jazz and Machine nearly completely jazz, the novelty, convenience and lack of competition in the prog genre, meant very few would get over-worried/over-heated, as to whether jazz rock should be included. Hence the inclusion of Mahavishnu Orchestra, RTF, (perhaps) Tasavallan Presidentti early on - but is Miles Davis or Tony Williams Lifetime prog rock.....................?. As mainstream prog blossomed - ditto jazz rock - more variants came into play. Jazz rock fusion will have propagated enough artists and albums, and develop enough musical differences to slowly become separated (to some)from prog. But by default, if MO, RTF etc. were prog and also jazz rock, then the later jazz rock bands are too- or are they? So it could be surmissed, if Steeley Dan had released several of their classic albums 5 years early, then their jazz rock would have also been absorbed into prog rock. But what for instance, of Bruford and Holdsworth's (even Bruford with Holdsworth's) jazz-based rock (or rock-based jazz) -? Bruford always claimed he brought jazz drumming sensiblities to Yes - as did Mitch Mitchell to Hendrix's blues rock. Bruford did play for Yes and Krimson (even Genesis). The sum of the parts of Bruford (the band), give some credence to being also prog. Bruford's Earthworks (essentially Bruford leading originally, a few former members of the great 80's jazz big band Loose Tubes) have some rock sensibilities - but Bruford post-Crimson, is he now almost a complete jazzman (and not prog at all)? Holdworth - too scary for both jazz and rock purists to claim for their own, and a number of his early bands being called prog - 'Igginbottom (????? but released on a prog label....), Tempest, Soft Machine (????), UK (the last original prog band??), Bruford(???), Lifetime (????). However, such a monster musician needs a home somewhere and jazz-based prog rock may have been convenient....
And brass rock (aka rock jazz) of BST, (early) Chicago, Heaven, Dreams, If, etc. : prog rock or not?
You know Peter, the more I think about, the more I realise the music was a lot simpler to classify in 1972 |
.Posted By: Beau Heem
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 14:42
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One of the my favourite progrock tracks is a Hit by Varese from Chicago II Still i wouldn't and couldn't think of Chicago as a progRock band. I trust that whenever and to whatever direction the site will take, I'll still be here... "Would you play free or in three or agree to attempt something new can-not-re-mem-ber a seed that will lead you to a hit by Varese e-e-e-ee-ee-eeeee." (or how was it...) -Beau ------------- --No enemy but time-- |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 14:53
"Who is the best" -the starting point of many a healthy discussion in my local.This is normal behaviour Peter. Why do you think the Guiness Book Of Records sells so many copies? We have the Booker Prize for Literature over here and it is basically an award for the best novel by a Commonwealth novelist of the last year. MVP, Man Of Steel,Best Pound-for Pound,Best In Show, humans are obsessed with who is the best and the why's and the wherefores are the most enjoyable part of it. How about "what's the worst example of screaming on an album you've heard this year?" -------------
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: January 14 2005 at 15:56
| I voted No but a fantastic jazz guitarist. Like his early stuf the most. Saw him live in Montreal at the Montreal International Jazz Festival I don't know how many times. |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: January 15 2005 at 05:22
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I voted NBAFJG. I find it hard to tell one PMG album from another, but he's done some interesting stuff outside of that. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |