Should Iron Maiden have been put on the A
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29331
Printed Date: November 24 2024 at 13:31
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Topic: Should Iron Maiden have been put on the A
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Subject: Should Iron Maiden have been put on the A
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:19
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I've never heard any of their music to judge how much prog they are, but I know its annoyed a lot. I'm annoyed that they are mentioned and yet Split Enz still isn't - it feels like a slap in the face when I saw I.M. on the archives this morning. There is also still the question of Miles Davis and Led Zep as well. But I'll stop my whining and ask what are people's views on them being included. My view is if they are prog then they are prog, like 'em or not. ------------- |
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:28
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If Metallica also get added: yes. Otherwise: no. I was initially against the addition of bands like Iron Maiden. Now that they're here it would be very inconsistent to not add bands like Metallica, who - among some blatantly non-prog albums - released some fine & innovative albums which are IMO much more prog related than anything Iron Maiden ever did. But that's just my personal opinion.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: glass house
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:32
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I never thought as them being prog-related. I enjoy their music.
Even in prog-related.......................NO.
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Posted By: riversdancing
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:35
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I really do not care. I was against some not-really-prog band such as Death or Nightingale, although I love their music, but as a metalhead I can understand why the core here was against them. Now I do not say anything against of for Maiden, if someone feel disturbed, simply skip the reviews and threads. I also do not understand why the proglovers can talk about other bands with so much hatred. Probably they should give up their intolerant behaviour and narrowmindedness and leave their caves. Reflecting to a post in another thread, Maiden is not the 13 year old teens music. I am 29 myself, but the real maiden fans are even older, in their mid-30s (the road to baldness). Now playing: Seventh Son of the Seventh Son |
Posted By: R o V e R
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:35
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its all started when they added
Queen, deep purple, and what not |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:36
Maiden influenced many modern bands all across the rock spectrum - including Prog metal bands especially Dream Theater. Their inclusion as Prog related is fully valid and justified IMO. Heavy rock and Metal is an integral part of the whole rock scene, not on a separate planet. There are groups on here whose inclusion i don't approve of, but you never hear me complain about them.
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:38
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Please remember that they have been added to the prog related section, which means they are not classified as prog.
For information, the addition of Iron Maiden was sanctioned only after a lot of detailed discussion in by the site's collaborators. This does not imply that all were in favour of course.
Also note that this will be the last new thread to discuss the addition of IM.
Oh and keep it civil, no throwing of toys out of the pram please.
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Posted By: R o V e R
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:41
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cool
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Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:50
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actually, this raises another itneresting question: how related to prog an artist has to be to be considered Prog Related? I mean, are we talking about "wants-to-be-prog-but-doesn't-quite-make-it" bands or "wanted-to-make-good-music-and-ended-up-making-prog-without-knowing-themselves" bands? i.e. Death never meant to be categorized as progressive, they just wanted to sing some innovative death and technical metal; same with some other bands within the prog related spectrum |
Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 04:57
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They have already been added, there's nothing you can do, just get over it. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bilek
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 05:18
I agree with you to a great extent. Metallica produced IMHO the greatest prog-metal albums of all times: Master of Puppets and ...and Justice for All. Ride the Lightning and black album are also worthy mentions. I really don't see why people keep on classifying them as thrash metal
 ...yet, Iron Maiden's Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is no less prog than those. Powerslave is also fine. I doubt about the others, they never admitted themselves as "prog" in the first place (though they covered a bunch of prog songs, notably that of Nektar) besides, they are known as a key innovator of NWoBHM...
------------- Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret: Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 05:55
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^ sorry, but I beg to differ: 1. I wouldn't call Master of Puppets a prog-metal album. It's simply not a part of that genre. It's a progressive Thrash Metal album - Metallica defined the genre together with bands like Slayer and Megadeth. 2. Seventh Son is IMO not even a prog-related album. The eponymous song *is* progressive, but most of the other songs are typical Maiden songs. Very simple chord structures and rhythms, and the occasional rhythm and/or key changes are commonplace even in AOR ... they're not adventurous enough to qualify as prog. But that's just my opinion! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 05:59
| but...they have been added as Prog-Related...which..um...isnt Prog...if some of their songs "are" Prog then they quite obviously are prog-related.. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 06:01
If 25% of an album is prog and the rest isn't, then ... it's a tough choice whether I want to call it prog -or prog-related. In this case I say:   ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 06:07
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I have always disliked Iron Maiden's style of music. However, I have to say, I do like their new album. So to answer the question...I don't know ------------- Proud to be an un-banned member since 2005 |
Posted By: Bilek
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 06:32
this is the first time I hear a genre called "progressive thrash metal"!!!! besides, Slayer and Megadeth's music are way too heavier than Metallica's. Honestly, I couldn't stand listening to a Slayer album all the way through, and even Megadeth was a bit hard for me (when I was into all kinds of heavy music!). I really wonder where the heck is the progressive element in Slayer's music...
as for 7th Son, Moonchild's synth intro, Infinite Dreams' melody, and The Prophecy's beautiful acoustic guitar outro give me the feeling that only prog gives. (I haven't listened to the album for ages, though) Can I play with Madness, The Evil That Men Do and Only the Good Die young are indeed typical Maiden songs (NWoBHM), which I'd classify as fillers in this instance (Maiden lovers, just don't bash me!) The Clairvoyant is a bit above these tracks.
taking the title track's length, the "prog percentage" of this album must be higher than 25%, mind you!
what the heck, I'm not even a Maiden fan anymore  ------------- Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret: Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 06:41
I know what you are saying and from a purist point of view you are probably correct but this is Prog-Related we are talking about and what is Prog-Related here to do? ...if there is a chance that Iron Maiden listeners will make the jump from the proggier IM sings to say prog-Metal or hard-edged bands like Rush or Porcupine Tree and from their to Classic Prog then why not include them? That is what the Prog-Related category is supposed to be a stepping stone to real Prog. I think that Iron Maiden,from that point of view,are the epitome of Prog-Related along with bands like Magnum. |
Posted By: KeyserSoze
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 06:57
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Ok, now we daily get 20 reviews of Iron Maiden albums. Who's next? U2 or Faith No More? They influenced many bands too... ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/mhron/?chartstyle=artists" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 08:31
This is what I was worried about- the 'if band X are here band Y should be' kind of thing. IMO, both Maiden and Metallica had prog influences in their music but I wouldn't necessarily have expected to see either on a prog website. I'm not going to start a mutiny about it, and I've been able to see the prog in Maiden's output for years, but it has possibly opened the floodgates a bit TOO wide. Maiden aren't too shocking an addition (arguably Triumph, ELO and Fairport Convention are less valid inclusions) but I worry that now there'll be cries to get no end of other metal bands on the site...
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 08:45
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If I had my way, Iron Maiden would not be here for the simple reason that I would ditch the entire prog-related section altogether. However, in another thread The Progtologist pointed out, and correctly so, that the existence of prog-related is a direct request or desire of the site's owners. It is important to remember that ultimately this is their site and it will be run in the manner that they see fit. So, given that prog-related is here to stay, I do believe Iron Maiden is prog-related or a proto-prog metal, if you will, having exerted enormous influence on a lot of PM bands. I am sort of worried that we are on a slippery slope here, however. Time will tell. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 09:17
| Yes. Under the prog-related category, it's really no problem. They have always made good, cleverly made complex heavy metal, a lot of rhythm and tempo changes, great guitar solos, awesome bass work, good drumming; I agree that they definitely influenced the prog-metal scene. Anyway, it would be a mistake to consider them as prog-metal artists. Prog-related, yes. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 09:31
Thing is that Iron Maiden are here to stay ... it's a given. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 10:02
I'm curious. How many prog bands did U2 and Faith No More influence? The hysteria is unwarranted. Every band gets evaluated on its own merits. Just because The Beatles are here, that doesn't mean we are now obligated to include bands like The Rolling Stones, and The Kinks. I am not a big metal fan, but I was in favor of Iron Maiden's inclusion. I took the time to get several albums, and carefully evaluate the music. This is how it is done. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Bilek
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 10:11
speaking of which, can anyone tell me what the heck U2's genre really is? I'm really curious about it (and please don't make the joke "curiosity killed the cat"!!!! )------------- Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret: Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 10:11
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^ U2 heavily influenced Dream Theater (Mike Portnoy is a huge fan), and Faith No More could be seen as related to prog because it was essentially Mike Patton's band. Having said that, neither one should be called prog or prog related (except perhaps the last FNM album, which is kind of Avant-Garde/Experimental). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 10:28
That is interesting Mike. However, I don't think it was the prog elements of these bands that were inspirational. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 11:31
| Yes, but only because we have the Prog Related category (I actually want it removed). They have many Proggish moments in much of their music, Prog Related is a good place for them to be. |
Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 11:44
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A BIG definitive yes. They dabbled with prog ever since their first album, with tracks like 'The Phantom of the Opera' and 'Remember Tomorrow' and have hade prog tracks on each album ever since, which I cannot say about Metallica. They influenced countless pure prog-metal bands. Prog related was a good choice, though 'proto prog-metal' would have been more accurate. ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 11:45
You must have noticed by now that it doesn't really matter if they are only classified as related. You've seen these kinds of reactions before. They're here. Their albums are all over the front page. Its wrong. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 11:56
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I must say I still haven't seen any healthy logic in favour of Iron Maiden having no place on the site, and since, as a member of the PMT, I endorse the decision of both the admin and my respective teams of including the band into Prog-Related, out of all categories... ------------- sig |
Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 12:00
I agree completely, Proto Prog Metal (if this genre existed) would have been perfect, but Prog Related is a good decision.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 12:03
Then I recommend you listen to Master of Puppets, which contains many progressive songs. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 12:14
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It was already voted NO, but whoever....
Now it appeared added to PA without a strong reason, at least to my opinion. If they are prog-related, then everyone else is too...
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 12:38
| YES |
Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 12:43
I own MoP ever since it's release, and yes there are prog moments. Can you say the same about the Black album, Load, Reload and St-Anger ? No. Crappy albums by once a great band
Maiden have gotten more and more prog. For proof, listen to the last three, Brave New World, Dance of Death and A Matter of Life and Death. You'll find that the prog argument is strong, whereas Metallica have nothing to stand for... ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 13:09
I don't agree. First of all it doesn't matter whether a band has a progressive phase and then became totally mainstream, or if they kept releasing prog albums (example: Yes, Genesis ...). And secondly I can't say that I find the later Iron Maiden albums much more progressive than Seventh Son. Maybe Brave New World, but only barely. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Selkie
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 14:40
Yeah, many metal bands have very technical instrumentation, write longer songs, deviate from standard verse/chorus song structures, and write concept albums. If you follow the reasoning that Maiden is prog, then you'd have to include a bunch of other metal bands, ex: Metallica. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 14:40
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RIOTS IN WORLD CAPITAL CITIES AS PROG ARCHIVE ANNOUNCE NEW LISTING http://www.flickr.com/photos/gonzale/116927680/in/set-72057594091957612/">
  Rafters News Agency 3rd October 2006
Public unrest around the world deepened last night as riots were reported in the world's major capital cities.
In London, Berlin, Sydney, Paris, Rome, New York, Rio de Janiero, Swindon and Bolton, disgruntled Prog Archive fans assembled to protest about the inclusion of IRON MAIDEN into the database - many burned effigies of Prog Archive Admin members and chanted "They are not Prog" it is reported.
Iron Maiden records and CD's were burned in huge bonfires in each city. Police think the protests were co-ordinated by The Revolutionary Purist Front, an organisation opposed to any new additions on the site.
An Admin spokesman said "we never had this much trouble when Deep Purple or The Beatles were included, Maiden are only included in Prog-related - it'll all die down in a few weeks. God knows what will happen when Metallica are included..."
The Army and National Guard remain on standby during these troubled times.
------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 14:46
 ![[=D>]](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif)
Brilliant!!
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 15:02
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Posted By: Spiderprog
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 15:38
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I am the last one to object to making this site broader and
be flexible with Prog definitions but including Iron Maiden? There are just about a thousand more bands that will need to be included if Iron Maiden is Prog Related. The fact that they are more popular is no excuse to include them and exclude others. There are enough websites that deal with heavy metal bands, was adding Iron Maiden to this one a wise decision? To be consistent, the prog related section will have to include more bands than all the other categories combined!
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 15:58
I'm with Spiderprog.  See now why the Prog Related thing was a bad idea? |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:00
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Fred...that was the funniest thing I have ever read here!!!!!!!
-------------  |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:03
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Don't know enought about them.
Don't care.
Consider the Flaming Lips. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:05
2nd. ------------- sig |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:06
Yeah...my son likes them...he saw them playing on Cartoon Network.  ------------- |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:07
! How did I miss that? ------------- 
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:13
I was talking about The Flaming Lips...not IM.
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:14
Yes, the Flaming Lips alright...  -------------
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Posted By: epifreak
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:22
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Hmm...I would have loved a "perhaps, only time may tell" option on the poll. I'm not really sure, but seeing as how I was leaning towards yes, I voted that way. Ultimately, I go to the definition of prog-related, which seems to have eaten the term "art rock" here. I believe that because you could make a very compelling case for Maiden's inclusion, on the grounds of several prog-ish elements, they deserve a spot. On the other hand, the band rarely went too far beyond the NWOBHM sound (at least until the last couple of albums, which as I understand, are the source of most arguments in favor of addition). Ultimately, they were a metal band, who happened to show some prog elements, rather than a prog band who used metal as their medium. As such, the best Maiden could get was prog-related. Since on this vote, 6/10ths of me wanted to vote yes, and the other 4/10 wanted to abstain, I can understand either position. |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:29
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I only have Brave New World and although it is a good album, it's not prog related
All I can think about is how they are on and not more worthy bands like COHEED AND CAMBRIA  !!! oh and the flaming lips-------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Andrea Cortese
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:30
| As I said in one of the many threads, I think IM stay well where they have been put. In prog related. I'm happy for the inclusion. |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:37
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The main problem in this case is not that Iron Maiden was added because of their (very scarce) prog elements. The main problem is that there are dozens of bands (led zep, black sabbath, cream, bowie, etc.) that have more or less the same level of progressiveness (some with more progressive elements than Iron Maiden, some less, but all in almost the same level) and they were denied. So it seems that the bands under heavy discussion are added according to admins' personal tastes, not the relevance to progressive rock (or progressive music that is a term that do not add anything since it is used here only to include prog metal (prog techno, prog country are not considered)). For me no problems if IM was added, prog-related is a category to be inclusive, but I think admins should explain the users why IM was added and the other I mentioned not based on progressive elements in their music and relevance of their music in prog compared to the relevance of the other bands. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:51
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I voted for "Don't care" but I was tempted to say YES!!! Now there's a Prog band. I applaud the courage, and some might say audacity, of those who opted to place IM on the site (even under Prog_Related) as they must have full-well recognised how controversial it would be especially as they'd be setting a precedent (well, another brick in the wall of scorn). They weren't afraid to risk further alienating many members in the interests of progress. Whether they're sufficiently Prog-related or not is not important to me, what matters to me is that these PA guys (gods one might say) have a vision, and whether or not I agree with that vision, I totally respect that they're pursuing it and not letting ruffled feathers dissuade them, or (hopefully not) cause them to second-guess themselves. Furthermore, that it's controversial is a good thing. I like controversy as it leads to debate. Without the free exchange of ideas the experience of communication is greatly diminished. It's controversial, and so IM's inclusion has led to debate (interesting communication). WONDERFUL! Can never have enough. This is a progressive site, to be progressive one needs to push the boundaries despite what others think (that goes for all in their own way). And never let anyone discourage you, PA dudes. I know that in your hearts, at least, you knew this was the right thing to do, and that's good enough for me. BRAVO!!! Now please get Spinal Tap into the archives!  |
Posted By: theBox
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 16:54
Where do I sign up for the Revolutionary Purist Front?????? ------------- |
Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 17:32
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Revolutionnary Purist Front = The mailto:N@zis - N@zis of Prog ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 18:43
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if the prog-related section were removed, Phish and a couple of other bands would have to be put somewhere else, for their music is too prog to not at least be on this site..
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: mrdfield
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 20:14
| I Know that I am new to this site but I am 43 yo and I have been listening to Maiden since 1980 with the release of thier first Album I do not claim to know a lot on the matters of what is and what is not prog But I have to say that Maiden have always put out very powerful and epic cds and thier lyrics to songs always have been of high calibur compared to other NWOBHM bands of the time They have been around since I belive 1975 and still are going strong I have been very intrested in seeing them added here as I belive they are more than just a NWOBHM band that has endured all these years I wonder sometimes that Should the prog metal catagory stand on its on, not under the umbrella of Prog Rock and have its on sub genres although It seems something like that may complicate the matter rather than fix it It just seems to me that Bands Like Maiden, Opeth ,Kamelot, Rhapsody of Fire, Queen, Deep Purple, and Rainbow etc probally should be in thier own catagory |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 20:26
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Just saw it now, Fred... it made my day, thanks! ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Bilek
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 08:03
I'd second that! ------------- Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret: Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 08:40
to Fred
Zep has exactly six or seven songs that are prog: Dazed And Confused, Stairway and Battle Of Evermore, No Quarter , Rain Song, Kashmir ans Achille's Last stand >> barely an album full.
Sabbath has the first two album in their almost entirety, plus parts of the all the Ozzy albums (bar Technical Ecstasy) and the two with RJ DIO are prog-related
Maiden has three album full of tracks that are at least prog-related
Zep has not got a case, even if I love Zep.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 08:45
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^ Maybe you could compile three albums of Iron Maiden songs that are prog-related ... but the problem is that they're scattered over a dozen studio albums. I agree about Led Zeppelin, although I'd add a few songs from LZ 3 (as Prog-Folk Related).
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 08:59
I also thought about that! On Zep 3: If they are pure folk rock then they are not really more than prog-related. Friends might also be prog-related.
I was not really a suporter of IM's inclusion because of the emotional impact they bring, but I do admit that they had a slight case for inclusion. I'm just not sure what the Archives had to gain from it though.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 09:19
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^ regarding your green comment: Agreed. Not every track on an album needs to be prog (prog-related) in order to make it prog (prog-related), but I'd say that it should be more than 2/3. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 09:35
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I am all for Maiden´s inclusion here (as I stated in an earlier post)
The problem is the genre in which they have been placed.
Maybe they should be whisked off to Prog Metal instead of being the only metal band in Prog Related
OR
Put into a genre of Proto Prog Metal (together with Priest and Sabbath) as they are more an influence to Prog Metal than a band with lots of Prog elements.
I am pleased to see them here but at the same time I can understand all the confusion and frustration.
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 09:36
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I think that Proto-Prog Metal would be more relevant to a Metal database than here.
However, never say "never"... |
Posted By: Bilek
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 09:45
I can't help agreeing you. I always regarded Zep as a blues-dominated hard-rock band, with some prog scattered here and there. They get pretty much wild in concert, though... Actually, the first two albums (as well as some later released material from that era) show obvious psychedelic references. Check out "White Summer/Black Mountain Side" from box set, for instance...
as for Sabbath, their Bloody Sabbath album is almost entirely prog (with a strong touch of Wakey!), and I can't agree more, on your statement "bar Techn."... After Ozzy, things unfortunately got worse (prog-wise).
well; what about Led Zep off-shoot Page & Plant's first live album? it has some of the songs in your proggy list, and some more "progified" by adding a touch of "arabesque" string section! "Friends" never sounded better, IMHO! and what about the previously-bluesy "Nobody's Fault But Mine"
? Also some folky songs of early period (Gallows Pole, Four Sticks) turn into prog-folk. Not to mention the magnificent rendering of Kashmir.sorry for going off topic! ------------- Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret: Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 09:56
That Unledded album has become my favorite of theirs I have to say. Many of those songs are better than the originals. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Swanhild
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 10:00
| The way metal is seen and classified by metalheads could be relevant for this discussion? I do not believe that they would say that Maiden is prog-metal. For me it seems better that they are in Prog Related rather than Prog-metal. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 10:32
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. |
Posted By: Uther
Date Posted: October 05 2006 at 15:30
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Well Subject IM....more replyes and more threads....There are some People that they care so much their personal tastes and biases.
I was censored by the team ( a while) for making and posting some polls and threads about it
They don't like Zep, very popular so we don't expect Zep or unledded could be add
Hope to not be censored this time. This site is public so we must feel free to post our opinions
 ------------- What! can the devil speak true? Macbeth, 1. 3 |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 05 2006 at 17:10
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Uther,
Any decision on whether or not a band is added does not take into account whether or not those taking the decision like the band or not. To suggest such shows disrespect for the integrity of our members, teams of experts and for the admin team.
Also, you have never been prevented from voicing your opinions. Action would only be taken if you are considered to be in breach of the site rules.
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 05 2006 at 17:16
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Maiden was considered for prog metal and after we discussed them and voted on them they were ultimately rejected.So don't look for them to be moved to that category. ------------- |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 07 2006 at 01:35
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Iron Maiden were a metal band that had unusually progressive tendencies-- more than other previous bands of their ilk (Sabbath, Priest, Scorps). There is very little doubt they generated the spark that started what is best described as progressive metal. Remember; Prog metal is metal with progressive leanings rather than heavy prog like Rush. Maiden are prog metal, they are prog-related, they were the most important band of the era-- much more than Metallica, Angelwitch, Exodus or Motorhead. They belong here and 'prog-related' is better than nothing. As far as Zep goes, they were progressive by nature but *not* Progressive. Zep started the idea of heavy blues/metal but moved on quickly, passing the torch to Black Sabbath.
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Posted By: Hatters
Date Posted: October 09 2006 at 14:18
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NO, simple as.
-------------  http://www.last.fm/user/SHatters/?chartstyle=basic10"> 
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Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 09 2006 at 21:20
| My only fear is that these prog-related bands will start to get as much attention as the real prog bands. |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: October 09 2006 at 23:22
To me, good music is good music. I don't care for IM, but if a number of progressive rock fans find a certain band interesting, I want to know about it. The nice thing about a prog-related category is that it gives us a chance to review and discuss albums that are similar to prog, but are not full-blown enough to be considered prog. A number of bands have one or two very progressive albums. Why completely exclude them simply because the rest of the catalogue is not? -------------  
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Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: October 09 2006 at 23:24
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Oh, and last I checked, Prog-Related was not winning the vote for favorite genre listed on this site: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29511 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29511 So, I think you're safe.  -------------
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Posted By: Bilek
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 03:01
... Your last sentence may even apply to notorious bands such as Genesis... (fans don't bash me, there's almost consensus that their post '80 works are not prog at all... Well, the previous ones are best of symphonic rock, that's another story...)
Yet, the problem with all these bands (in the prog-related category) is that they might be mixed up with "full-blown" prog bands, so as to distract attention (just as Sasquamo's concern). This site's first and foremost aim is to advertise progressive rock music, not honour bands which came close to making prog in a certain phase of their careers!!! For this reason I'm repeating my suggestion that I made several times before: the bands in prog-related category (after the transfer of Peter Gabriel to some other genre
) must somehow be kept seperate from the other subgenres, and reviews should not be featured on the homepage (or homepage must be split into two, showing prog-related album reviews at the bottom). This way a newcomer, who tries to investigate what prog actually is, would not see 3 Iron Maiden, 2 Ten CC, 1 ELO, 3 Queen, 1 Fairport Convention and 1 Wishbone Ash etc. albums! (btw, I just realised Troya is also in prog-related! Remove it elsewhere, please! it's more prog than most bands in art-rock...)I know, this is a hard task, and might take a lot of time, but I believe it will pay off in the long run and save us from needless arguments like this ------------- Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret: Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 08:55
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"Seventh Son.." is already in No 174, surpassing tons of true prog albums... no comment... ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 09:06
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^ the cold and objective world of database queries ... not the album is wrong, but the SQL query!
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 09:15
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Yes. Prog Related. ------------- 
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Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 09:31
Sigh. The overall top100 is a SUPERFICIAL rating system. It compares apples and oranges and throws it all together into a fruit salad. You tell me which is better: The highest ranked Zeuhl album or the highest ranked Prog Metal album. Well the top100 has already decided, but to actually say that one album is better really doesn't make too much sense. They have entirely different goals and their music leaves not too much to be compared. I'm trying to direct you toward an argument that might actually get some consideration, because comments like this will get you nowhere. I would argue to throw away the whole top500 thing if people like you are getting so bent out of shape about it. It doesn't mean that much anyway. It makes more sense to have top100 in individual sub-genres. And another flaw with your line of thinking: Inidividual albums are written to be progressive, not bands. Don't believe me? Ok, then try to claim that Yes or Genesis' whole catalogue is progressive, and you'll have the whole site laughing at you. Just because Iron Maiden isn't a prog rock band doesn't mean that can't write a progressive album, and apparently many people believe this to be a very progressive album. Listen to MikeEnRegalia, he knows... -------------
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 16:53
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Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!! ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 17:07
| sorry, but I don't think it was a particularly good idea... |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 17:12
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Yes.....their new album is a Prog Metal album, so therefore I p[ersonally see know problem.....I voted Yes.......thats a "yes" from me.......................yes! I voted "yes" ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 17:22
To me, the real issue is not the presence of any one band like IM. Rather, it is "does metal belong on a progressive rock site?"
(Is it "prog," or is it just "prog as far as metal goes?") I'm not saying yes or no, but that seems to be the fundamental issue: how broad is your definition of "prog?"
The definition of the site's owners obviously does include metal, so, given that, then I can't see how people can justifiably whine about the continued inclusion of metal bands. Like it or not, metal is here on PA, and it has been here from the start.
If it REALLY bothers you that metal is here, you should perhaps leave and start your own "pure" prog website.
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 17:33
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I think the problem lies with the concepts behind metal bands, quite often they are not as intellectual and more image conscious(eg skinheads etc) than prog bands like Genesis. Although this is not the 100% truth I think this is the general image that metal has been portrayed to the public. Noise and posing are often the priorities in metal bands rather than creativity and musicianship. To me a most of the 80s metal bands had more in common with punk than rock - loud, image consciuos and promoting the the impression that it appeals to the lowest common denominator of the public. I think this is why people are opposed to IM on the archives. But good or not if they are prog related they are prog related.
I guess the general impression I get is that people who want to look tough and violent listen to metal, just like some of the early punk listeners. While prog is less image conscious and more cerebral. ------------- |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 18:41
I can tell you, my dear friend from the Southern Hemisphere: some of our beloved bands of the 70s were real posers!
------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 21:21
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Yeah you've got a point Atkingani, especially ELP and Richard Wakeman but they had the musical dexterity to back up their posing, without the posing they still perfrmed intricate music. I actually hate posing in music prog or not, but you do have a point. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I interpret many metal bands and their listeners as more focussed on the external eg listening to Metallica makes you think you look tough
 , while listening to early Genesis etc might make you look...
   prog is unfashionable, I think that most of its listeners are less self conscious what their friends or media think. While with metal you're in this subculture that king of symbolises violence and aggression, thats not really what prog symbolises.
Ok I've probably opened a whole can of worms, and offended metal fans ------------- |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 21:28
Do my eyes deceive me?? What kind of weird alternate reality have I stumbled into?? I never thought I would see the day Peter. ------------- |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: October 10 2006 at 22:52
I don't think people go onto PA and discuss music because they want to promote an image. So, if a number of people on this site want to see IM on here, it's most likely not for their image...regardless of whether IM has one or not. And here in the US, prog isn't unfashionable, because nobody even knows what it is. -------------
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: October 11 2006 at 02:39
i respect everybody's opinion that "Seventh Son.." is a prog album... but i disagree... just because some people say so doesn't mean that i have to agree too.. it's just a matter of opinion... ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 11 2006 at 03:04
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^ obviously you're either unwilling or unable to understand what this list means.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: October 11 2006 at 03:13
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^maybe.. ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 11 2006 at 03:14
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^ you have to understand that the *only* problem is that the list doesn't sepoarate prog from prog-related. The problem is not specific to Seventh Son, or any other album ... the list simply shows the most popular albums, regardless of prog status or genre.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: October 11 2006 at 03:24
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^still, you have to understand that seeing an IM release in there, among all these prog albums...i don't know, i've always considered IM to be a NWOBHM legend with its leader to be a big prog fan...
------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 11 2006 at 03:28
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^ I agree.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 11 2006 at 03:31
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IM are not as prog-related as MANY other bands that aren't here... YET.
Just about all NWOBHM bands are prog-related in some way, for a start. Iron Maiden should not be here - the "prog-relation" is tenuous to say the least. Where are the MELLOTRONS??? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Grake Leg
Date Posted: October 11 2006 at 14:04
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Uhm... Didn´t ever know they´re prog in somehow...
That´s strange: Everything I´m listening to is prog.
I think they music is different from usually metal- isn´t it?
It contains complexity wich even some prog bands do not have.
I say "YES"
Vote for Maiden!
Give metal a chance!
PS: It´s draw!
This is gona be interesting. ------------- Welcome back my friends to the show of hands! |