Does prog make you smart?
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Topic: Does prog make you smart?
Posted By: gdub411
Subject: Does prog make you smart?
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 13:44
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Recently my uncle had told me of an experiment someone made. They took two normal people who listened to standard pop music and gave them a variety of acedemic tests to guage their I.Q and their level of knowledge. After that they had one person listen to rap for an entire month while the other listened to classical music. Afterwards they retested them and found the one who listened to rap actually scored lower than he did a month earlier and the one who listened to classical scored higher. 1st I was wondering if anyone has heard of this or is this just a bunch of mularkey? 2nd, if it is true, could the same hold true for someone who listens to progressive rock, would they actually get smarter like the guy who listened to classical.(that obviously hasn't been the case for me. |
Replies:
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 13:50
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Nope, I believe you have to be already stupid to listen rap (Just a joke) Ivn
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 13:53
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The classical music phenomenon has been (controversially) documented before - I think there was a study called The Mozart Effect (or something along those lines). I've not heard about any specific study relating to rap, but I'd imagine similar effects would be associated with styles like death metal, hardore punk and anything my neighbour's teenagers play at 2 am when their parents are away. I also recall a study which showed that plants grow better if you play them classical music, but worse if you play them hard rock. I always leave my radio tuned to radio 3 if we're away for a few days and my plants seem to thrive on it. This would bear out Lemmy's boast about Motorhead: "If we moved in next door to you, your lawn would die". Having said that, IQ tests prove nothing more than your ability to do well in IQ tests. Anybody who wants to join MENSA should be forced to read a copy of 'The Mismeasure of Man' by Stephen Jay Gould first. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 13:55
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"If we moved in next door to you, your lawn would die". Must be the wart  ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 13:58
It beggars belief! I reckon if you try hard enough, you can prove anything you want in a lab situation! Total cobblers!
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gdub411 wrote:
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:00
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:01
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Well lets face it, the Rap Stars aint no Rocket Scientists
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: cirith
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:04
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well its probably because the music is more complex, if you listen(not hear)mozart and then britney spears i dont think u would learn much from britney, but maybe thats just a load of crap since music can react in different ways for each people. ------------- yeah i have a funky fish! |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:09
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Recently I told this girl who happens to be an avid rap listener this experiment and she said "It was a bunch of crap! I told her a classical music listener would have said it more articulately like: That is a great deal of defacation or such Later she had forgotten where she had left her purse and asked if I knew where it was and I told her " If you'd listen to classical music you'd remember." Her reply to that was "#@%#%^ |
"......Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:10
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I remember a laboratory test involving laboratory-rats. When a group of scientists studied these rats and one of them began to laugh on what the Rats were doing the other scientist began to laugh too, for they wouldn't want to be the one left holding the joke. Anyway scientific tests can prove anything you want them to prove. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:11
Oh Rats !! 
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:14
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Anyone on this Forum who thinks all Rap music is unintelligent is ignorant. IMHO.
See one of them is a Doctor for Christssake! -------------
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:16
Sorry !!!!!!!  Witch Doctor might that be ?????
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Matt0001
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:43
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Your uncle told you of an experiment that was made, huh? Any idea where
this study was done, where the results were published? Sorry, my urban
legend detector is going bonkers here. Rap does not make you stupid. Believe it or not, there is good hip hop out there. As with any style of music, the best is not necessarily represented on the radio. And even one of the most popular albums of the past couple years--Outkast's Speakerboxx/The Love Below-- is also one of the best albums regardless of genre from the past ten years. Andre 3000 is the Frank Zappa of hip hop. Don't tune out anything from ignorance. Give it an honest listen first. |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:44
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Frank Zappa of hip hop. That will make him turn in his grave !!!!!!  ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:47
Is Andre dead already then ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:50
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ZAPPA WOULD TURN IN HIS GRAVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:57
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Zappa was a square just like you old guyz see how you are like old grandads, oh music of today it all noise. Not Kool you guyz. Tails Of Topografic ocean that is one kool album . dre & eminem rock, the kidz luv them pioe and sliper bregade here again. |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:57
| How do you know, without listening? Does having rapping on a song automatically remove any other good aspects the song could have? |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 14:59
I guess that settles it conclusively................. -------------
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Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 15:05
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Am I the only one being bothered by the fact that you guys are looking down on people who listen to music you don't like? I listen to some rap, as well as punk, death metal, and other genres you guys are citing as making people stupid, and I would like to think of myself as maybe being remotely intelligent (although I'm more than open to having my thoughts changed on this matter). |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 15:06
I never bite the hand that feeds me.......
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 16:59
Like you, I listen only to music I like, without discrimitating because of genre. All genres have a portion of great music, a portion of utter tosh, and a middle ground (Duh!). It's up to a selective listener to find the music he/she likes and ignore anyone who doesn't agree - why follow the herd?  |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 17:24
Winning friends and influencing people again, Gdub?
------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 17:35
That's just my seductive charm. Actually we have been friends for well over 10 years so I know she's cool with it. She just has bad taste in music. |
Posted By: asuma
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 18:11
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ive heard some smart rap.
Dr. Octagon here is one song Dr. Octagon Biology 101 lyrics Yeah At 40,000 kelvin, it's Dr. Octagon, with the Emperor General drop down to 40 g's can science achieve the unified theory of complex systems permenantly skeptical of friends of the institute external faculty, a routine exerts selected pressure by killing less-fit programs life evolves, in cyber space green and blue objects of self-replicating lightning represents random mutation complete with chaotic systems such as turbular fluids heated gasses are formless fully complex, amino entree disappear the order in which you ordered the poetry the torsist liquid terms compiled among a list of 31 ways to define grammatical the degree of universiality in a language required to describe a style effective the degree of regular rather than random information for instance complexity equals the capacity of an un expecting observer thermo dynamic deaf of the amount of resource to put back a system together from scratch pioneering, engineering, cybernetic, cellular, calculus co-operating flatly contradicting predictable circumstances including uranium 235 is obtained from bombs fission can science achieve a unified theory of complex systems? maybe so can science achieve a unified theory of complex systems? maybe so can science achieve a unified theory of complex systems? maybe so can science achieve a unified theory of complex systems? like carbon dioxide you messing with the chemicals, warfare different stars in the atmospheres like haley's comet computers that will make you vomit change the earth south saliva run in your mouth gastric juice more beyond since mother goose created shapes the first man was hairy apes 7, 35 PPTD over powering spray crops like DDT the first around apollo 13 beaming down through rain drops white pieces hit the scene atomic formats complex playin on silver DATs guarded by sonic steel and taken off by thundercats you on the avenue wishin you could see me my force field shuts in two eyes seein three of me illusions fusions particle gas confusions i run space shuttles in EM you the solution takin off from boe meet me at the black hole in times four your mind seems to move in tider showin you the spectrums the past in fabric liner you in my future now is h2o a gas or a liquid? perhaps concepts could not explain is h2o a gas or a liquid? perhaps concepts could not explain is h2o a gas or a liquid? perhaps concepts could not explain is h2o a gas or a liquid? psychology is not applied biology nor is biology applied chemistry level independant some degrade the levels above and below captive intricancies after their friends give interest theories collapse, perhaps concepts cannot explain irreversible concrete philosophical developments such analysis indicate emergence naturally, in a simple society the pale matrix summerizes the scorming affluent software 30 arc seconds strategy like drops of water floating in a void unstable atoms orbit this new cloud nuclear having excess neutrinos or protons teeter on the edges of nuclear stability nor and drip lines under the stress some develop a halo bale radioactivity isotopes exotic depending on their velocity their charges narrow momentum distribution force is directly reflected electric magnetic c 22 l i 11 escape particle bombardment properties of the nucleus v8 in the sun it produces easily detected neutrinos much less to predict the standards can be designed if you end it and it provide for continuing evolution of technology by remaining compatible with existing applications in programming language psychology is not applied biology nor is biology applied chemistry whats the issue? psychology is not applied biology nor is biology applied chemistry whats the issue? psychology is not applied biology nor is biology applied chemistry whats the issue? psychology is not applied biology nor is biology applied chemistry whats the issue? psychology is not applied biology nor is biology applied chemistry whats the issue? delta 9 approximate time my face in venus the sun is over there and nothing gets between us you the earthling trying to float its a mental thing i got oxygen 8 hours of space time you must return quick please don't waste time you get down here, the moon is a place to fear with 2 minutes on the planet you're only bound to panic we have no extras, bags, etcetera what if your obstacles backfires you inflate in seconds nervous like flat tires one seconds left to orbit has last breath telecast to earth a astronaut didn't make it we move beyond your navigation enable a 32 switching like channel 13 late at night you see a blank screen focus on the outer limits but you're back on stage on the line of scrimmage i am out here come and get me with no equipment call the president not even rocks or fossils live damaged by the elements is light the source? touch my delicate instrument is light the source? touch my delicate instrument is light the source? touch my delicate instrument is light the source? touch my delicate instrument ------------- *Remember all advice given by Asuma is for entertainment purposes only. Asuma is not a licensed medical doctor, psychologist, or counselor and he does not play one on TV.* |
Posted By: BebieM
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 18:18
| I agree with you guys, putting an entire genre down is ignorant and wrong. But I also think saying that modern mainstream music (almost) never reaches a high level compared to prog or other more complex and inspired music it just true. |
Posted By: Pixel Pirate
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 18:37
Yes,even the truth... ------------- Odi profanum vulgus et arceo. |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 18:45
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Dr Dre and Dr Octagon....two members of the medical profession. Wow! Rap must be intelligent. Move over Fish, Roger Waters and Peter Hammill.....here comes Dr. Octagon. Oh...by the way....that one tape loop during every single rap tune with that one bass note one can hear pounding from rap enthusiasts car.......pure genius! Brilliant!!! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 18:45
| The rap you guys talk of is pop music that has "urban" flare. There is true hip-hop out there that's educational, positive, deep, and immensly talented. |
Posted By: joniox
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 18:50
| Does prog make you smart? |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 18:55
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That's the big question. Please read the intro to the thread before asking your "clever" question. |
Posted By: Pixel Pirate
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 18:56
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I did read a test once,not an urban legend! proper scientists in a real laboratory and everything!,where they tested the effect certain types of music as opposed to silence had for improving the,for want of a better word,cognitive faculties,of mice. They played nothing but classical to one group of mice for 8 hours a day I think it was for a certain amount of time (I think it was a week,this is a few years ago and the memory is a bit hazy), heavy metal to another group of mice for the same amount of time and nothing at all to a third group of mice for the same amount of time. Then they tested each group separately in a maze to see which ones would make it through the maze the fastest. The mice that had not been listening to anyhing but silence completed the maze in the same time they had before the experiment,the mice who had been listening to classical music completed the maze markedly faster than they had before the experiment and the mice who had been listening to metal just bumped against the sides of the maze banging their heads against it,and when they finally managed to get out of the maze much later than the other mice,they started attacking each other. Now,does this mean that people who listen to classical are very clever and people who listen to metal are stupid and agressive? It might of course,but how mice react to certain stimuli in a laboratory has usually very little to do with the actual lives of human beings. One situation can't necessarily automatically state something categorically about the other. For one thing: Humans aren't mice,even though they are our ancestors. At least it's probably the only case in history of headbanging mice! ------------- Odi profanum vulgus et arceo. |
Posted By: joniox
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 18:59
I never meant to be more clever than I am. Just didn't bother to read all that. I should have. |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:02
No...my apologies.....I should be nice and encouraging to newcomers. Welcome to the Forums. Usually I am a swell guy! |
Posted By: joniox
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:04
| Friendliness of this board keeps surprising me. |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:06
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:09
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No but Gdub can recommend something that does!
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Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:12
plenty of protein is my suggestion. |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:15
EL Presidente Of De Third World Comedy State: Smart=Sting -------------
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Posted By: Matt0001
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:19
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Dr. Octagon, aka Dr. Dooom, aka Robbie Analog, but best known as Kool
Keith really is a genius. He has two classic albums--his album with DJ
Q-bert as Dr. Octagon, "Dr. Octagonecologyst," and Kool Keith's "Black
Elvis/Lost in Space." He has as many pseudonyms as he does albums and
each one really does has its own distinct characteristics. His raps are
incredibly creative and out there. The Dr. Octagon album is also a
classic in the turntable world for DJ Q-Bert's exhausting work. And
this is someone you'll never hear on the radio. Hip hop, just like any
good music, has it's water-downed, corporate mainstream scene, and it's
vital, creative underground scenes. And to adress some of the more ignorant arguments: Sampling is in fact a creative art. It's a re-creation and re-working of found materials. Do you dismiss Joseph Cornell's work? And a lot of hip hop's techniques--programmed beats, tape loops, studio assemblage, etc has its roots in prog and other experimental music. The Moog is nothing but an analog sampler. Frippertronics was pre-recorded tape loops. The Beatles and Brian Wilson were assembling tracks in the studio that would be impossible to recreate live back in the sixties. And if you've ever seen a hip hop DJ work live, well, a DJ solo can be as athletic, as bombastic, and as tedious as a Carl Palmer drum solo. And for a great example of sampling being a creative act, listen to The Avalanches' "Since I Left You." It's an entire album made of nothing but found samples. It's as varied and creative as anything with "real" instruments. |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:29
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If he is that good, why does he need so many aliases? Is on the run? He certainly isnt a genius when it comes to choosing names! Kool Keith-ha ha!
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Are the bailiffs after him?
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 19:43
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Matt, Rap is a genre based in a couple of chords repeated 100 times with a guy speaking (Yes I don't consider that singing) fast. The lyrics may be intelligent (even when I haven't heard many of this kind) but it's not music. It's almost as reading with a musical backup, in this case absolutely repetitive and lack of talent. I really don't know very much about DJ's or even care about them, so answer me a question, Do they create music or do they mix other people's recordings adding some sounds, because I searched for a definition and found this one: DJ: A person who mixes songs together for public performance. DJs perform on the radio or in clubs. If this is all they do where is the creation and the talent? Ivn |
Posted By: asuma
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 20:02
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i have seen djs work many a time, and they work
their ass off just as much as any other musician. though they don't actually "play" an instrument. they take something and mix it with another, and create something new, and hopefully, special. ive tried it before. you might think it's easy to match up a beat with another. but it's not, especially when it's done live, and you're making a switch from tracks. and rap isn't always the same loop set on repeat. many many rap songs are structured in, what can be, very complex styles. ------------- *Remember all advice given by Asuma is for entertainment purposes only. Asuma is not a licensed medical doctor, psychologist, or counselor and he does not play one on TV.* |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 20:18
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I never said they are not working, I'm sure N'Sync and Backstreet boys worked very hard, but this DJ's are not creating anything new, not a single chord or even a note. For God's sake, they are not even performing, they are usinga complex recorder a couple of turntables and a very expensive computer to reproduce music. They are simply using what more talented people created and mixing it, maybe it's hard, but breaking your back at the office is also hard, and nobody will pay a dime to see us work.
Probably, even when I didn't had the chance to listen them, but you should accept this intelligent rap may represent 1 or 2% of the genre. Ivn |
Posted By: Matt0001
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 20:33
I'm not about to get into a "is rap music music?" argument. There is no argument. Rap music is music. You may not like it, and you certainly don't have to like it, but it is music. I guess probably there are still a few old codgers out there who maintain that abstact expresionism is not art, but they are just as wrong. If you trully are curious and not just baiting an argument, email me and I will gladly send you a CD or make a Rhapsody playlist or place some MP3s in my Yahoo! briefcase of examples of good sampling and turntableism. You might be surprised by what you hear. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 21:11
 Man, please don't generalize a genre
you obviously know nothing about. You still aren't talking about a
LARGE QUANTITY of rap music that has beats that aren't loops,
intellectual lyrics, and amazing emotion. Just as the Poppy music you
hear on the radio is not rock, the poppy music you hear on the radio
isn't rap. I thought you guys would have that figured out...
You are talking about the DJ's that perform in clubs/on the radio. This is not the type of "artist" DJ. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 22:13
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Hey Root Pepper, then you're talking as underground or cult rap bands and DJ's. Pronbably they don't represent 1% of the genre. In the case of Progressive Rock and Rock music, the good artists represent a very big percentage of the genre. So if we talk about a genre we must talk aboutthe general rule, not about the exceptions. Ivn |
Posted By: penguindf12
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 22:16
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I really have no problem with good rap. (I know, most say there is no such thing) But seriously, rap has the potential for good use. It can be used to convey real emotions, thoughts, and ideas. My problem with rap is that most rap artists do ONLY rap, and in doing so repeat cliches, recycle material, and sell out before they even begin writing. Most is pointless garbage, mass-manufactured like any other pop music. But it has potential, except a lot of people are biased against it since it has remained stagnant and BAD for so long. Some artists, I think, are trying to fix this. The only two rappers/hip-hop artists I can stand or even like are Eminem, Outkast, and Linkin Park (which is actually rap-rock). For instance, Jon Anderson uses a rap-like vocal on "Close to the Edge". But is it bad? NO! It's well-thought out, the music is original, the thoughts are progressive and the intent is not base and regressive as most rap is. I suspect that soon, whether we like it or not, progressive rap/hip-hop will appear (actually, it probably already has...but nobody cares yet). But all that nonwithstanding, I still hate most rap because most of it sucks, frankly. |
Posted By: Rob The Good
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 22:47
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I wish people would just face it. Rap is a load of rubbish. It's not music and the guys who make it are commercialized and unsophisticated...I shudder to hear people call them "artists". ------------- And Jesus said unto John, "come forth and receive eternal life..." Unfortunately, John came fifth and was stuck with a toaster. |
Posted By: Matt0001
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 23:44
And just where are you getting these numbers? They're just pulled out of the same place where you seem to keep your head. Hip hop is not out to get you. If you don't like it, that's fine. It will progress and move on without you. Just as it has for the past thirty years. Just like rock'n'roll before it, it will not go away. |
Posted By: aqualung28
Date Posted: January 09 2005 at 23:58
------------- "O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love 'n you should have us all O' you should have us fall" "Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart |
< Maybe these emotions (from the rap "music" I've heard at least)Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 00:08
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I would only ask you to keep the level of the discussion Matt, this weekend I've been involved in more than one and all have been absolutely civilized. Of course the percentage is not exact, it's only a pleonasm to make clear those good prog and hip hop bands are the absolute minority (if they exist). And it's obvious, every day hundreeds of new rap and hip hop bands go to the labels to try to have a chance and most of them have to play what the labels and radio want, if they want to survive they have to play crap, if not well they turn to underground bands that die of hunger, on this days only a few have the courage to make things fot theoir love to art.
It's true, I don't like it, I also believe most of it has no artistic value, but I don't think it will progress, I believe they will vanish as Disco, New Wave or Punk did before. Ivn |
Posted By: the musical box
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 00:44
yes, rap does indeed chomp the chode (no offence meant), but there is some value to it. Some rap is tolerable, like Outkast for example who accualy make fun of themselves. I really dont care for rap at all, but if interested, check out a canadian rapper named K-OS. He's being called the saviour of hip-hop and he is starting a new genre which he calls, and i quote: "Progressive rap". .Who knows? Perhaps in time there will be a new sub-type called "prog rap"..only time will tell.------------- something pretentious |
Posted By: aqualung28
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 00:46
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but do we really want 20 min + rap epics?
------------- "O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love 'n you should have us all O' you should have us fall" "Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart |
Posted By: the musical box
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 00:51
...i dont know ------------- something pretentious |
Posted By: aqualung28
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 01:05
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^ In Short....NO ------------- "O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love 'n you should have us all O' you should have us fall" "Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart |
Posted By: the musical box
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 01:10
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I 'd have to hear a "rap epic" first to have an informed opinion ------------- something pretentious |
Posted By: aqualung28
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 01:13
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but after you listened to it you wouldn't be able to tell us how it sounded due to the fatal brain damage it would cause.b ------------- "O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love 'n you should have us all O' you should have us fall" "Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart |
Posted By: the musical box
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 01:18
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on a different note: why does this thread keep on being moved?!?!
------------- something pretentious |
Posted By: aqualung28
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 01:20
well its been moved to Discussions not Related to music for good reason ------------- "O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love 'n you should have us all O' you should have us fall" "Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart |
Posted By: the musical box
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 01:23
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its been moved about 5 times in the last hour!!
------------- something pretentious |
Posted By: aqualung28
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 01:24
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Has it?
------------- "O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love 'n you should have us all O' you should have us fall" "Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart |
Posted By: the musical box
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 01:25
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indeed it has
------------- something pretentious |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 03:48
Firstly, nowhere is it written that the backing must be repetitive. Admittedly, it usually is, but likewise (I should think) the majority of rock music is simplistic and repetitive (ergo, every rock band (including prog) must be without value?) Secondly, why does music have to have melodies? Drum solos (usually) have no melodies, after all. And most of the time they're longer than rap songs !
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 03:52
Some hip-hop groups use live instrumentation. And some composers have almost entirely used other people's work. I can't remember the name, but I listened to a piece a few months ago, composed in the early part of last century (I think) which quoted piece after piece with a solo voice over the top. Plus, didn't Zappa quote Stravinsky and Mozart in his pieces?
And much more than 2% of rock is intelligent? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 11:35
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Sorry Goose, but isn't one of the main characteristics of Progressive Rock not being repetetitive, but full of constant changes and odd timmings? Music needs melody, it's a combination of rhythm and melody according to musical cannons. Please, don't use drum solos, it's absurd, there are one or two drum solos in each concert and are only a small part of the music. Most of the rock and Prog concerts and albums have one or two drum solos in the middle or the end of a determined track. Don't compare it with rap, where melody almost doesn't exist. Goose, Zappa Yes, ELP, Wakeman quote famous composers, but again as a small part of a composition by them, theydon't pass all concert playing other people's music, maybe except albums like Pictures at an Exhibition, but in that case is a new arrangement and it's only one album from the whole ELP catalogue. I used the word intelligent Rap asa rhetorical figure refering to those bands that some people here mention as good music but I haven't heard yet as most of the people in this forum. And yes, I can mention at least 100 good rock bands well known by everyone here, but I doubt anybody can mention 10 good rap bands barely known by 10% of the people here. Ivn
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Posted By: sigod
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 11:53
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Would a Prog/Rap crossover look like this then?
------------- I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision. - Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill |
Posted By: charliefreakz
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 12:23
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Christ! Threads like these depress me. I'm not a rap fan, but
each to their own. This is exactly the sort of thread that plays straight into the hands of those who think that all prog-rock fans are uppity little snobs. You are becoming the clich. 
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 12:27
| Yes, and i'd like to add that "Indifference is the greatest contempt!" |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 12:37
And the progressive rappers aren't repetitive either! My point was: While rap in a lot of cases is simple, some isn't. Likewise: While rock in a lot of cases is simple, some (prog) isn't. With regards to sampling other music, I'm not going to argue; you have a fair point in disliking it for that. It doesn't bother me, because I don't bother about how music was created, but about the end result. But there is some original and thought provoking rap around. And re drum solos, while they may only take up a small portion of a concert, most of the time there is no melody whatsoever, wheras in hip-hop songs the backing will generally have a melody. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:10
|
Please. Prog fans snob, take a visit to public places as rateyourmusic.com and read what people thinks about prog?, you'll find:
It's funny when people gives their opinion about rap in progressive forums everybody says they are crap, but now a lot of people says it's great, it's music or even that there exists progressive rap!!!! All the rap I listened in my life is crap IMO, maybe there's some good rap, but it's very ocult. I didn'tstarted this but I do believe rap or hip hop have no place in a progressive rock forum. Ivn |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:13
PROUD TO BE A SNOB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:16
What about a square VC? -------------
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:21
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Does LEICESTER SQUARE count ??? I visited in August 2004   ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:23
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:26
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I've heard of Court Jester and Village Idiot but never.................
-------------
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:34
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Looks like a Jesters Village
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:38
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CLOWN TOWN:
-------------
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:45
|
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:50
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Looks profane to me? Is it the nudey version of The Bible?
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 13:51
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 14:57
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Okay...my fault. I gave this thread a horrible name for what I really wanted to know about. My two questions at the beginning of the thread is what I was concerned about. 1. Is this a bunch of mularkey? 2. Could prog make one smarter as classical did? This whole thread discussing the crappiness of rap REALLY wasn't my intention. |
Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 16:06
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Hi gdub. By way of a serious answer to your thread, I am convinced that having a musical background as a child, and being a musician myself, has hightened my ability to pick up languages very quickly. A musician's ear is trained to distinguish tones and patterns in sound. Once you've learned the tune the words come easily. ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 16:50
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It's easy for you to say that. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Wizard/TRueStar
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 19:10
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I see this all around. Rap is not very involved. It is someone talking over a beat. Rap is actually modern caveman music . Progressive is to me a higher level of music (not in every case) than "classical". It has more limits. Prog done right (remember this is Whiz talking so every thing is prog It takes a higher musical awareness to understand and fully appreciate what this website has decided is progressive. I think that is why we are all here. Our awareness brings us together. |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 19:20
|
Ha. I love it when the stereotypical brainy and/or wealthy character in a bad movie or film (or forum discussion) is represented as a classical fan. It's like how the Romans are always shown with british accents in biblical films, or how villains are more likely to have moustaches. Classical music is not a priori intellectual (although the phrase 'a priori' is. And much the same idea applies to prog. The complex and/or exotic additions to the rock form often effectively mask the fact that most prog is not really all that different from any other type of music. It may tend to appeal to a certain above-average-intellectual segment of western society, but that's more a matter of sub-cultural taste than intellectual distinction. I'm always a little dismayed by folks who think that their tastes elevate them. Take a look around at the forum...we're not all rocket scientists here. No matter what the subject matter, we're more likely to reduce it to the usual crap than maintain an enlightened level. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: Matt0001
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 20:26
|
Ok to get back to the original topic. I claimed this was an urban
legend. And even the "Mozart effect" that everyone assumes is true is
actually bunk science that has never been verified. See this article
for more information: http://skepdic.com/mozart.html - http://skepdic.com/mozart.html And, Ivan, I'm sorry for the uncivil remark earlier. You are right, there is no place for that sort of thing here. My offer to make a CD for you still stands, however. |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: January 10 2005 at 20:32
|
Good job dismissing my post. I'll remember this...you've crossed the wrong guy! ...just kidding, of course...one crazed violent stalker on this thread is enough. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 14:24
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Well, at least here I'm not the only one who thinks the same about rap:
63.64% believes Rap is crap 77.28 believes its mediocre or less 18.8% believes it's good 1 lunatic believes it's brilliant One person, one vote progheads have spoken. Ivn |
[4.55%]Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 14:30
|
Just read your post Matt0001, thanks for the apologize but it was not necessary, because we all sometimes loose temper in the heat of a discussion. But again, I believe we are here to discuss different points of view. Thanks for the CD offer, I'll send you my mail and in return I'll burn you a peruvian progressive album. Ivn |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 14:43
Not true - so-called "classical" has pushed every boundary there is to push. Prog is still dragging its heels in some areas - I have yet to hear a piece of prog use a note row (as in 12-note music) or some of the more esoteric aleatory methods of composition. There is no prog I know of that combines virtuosity with melody in the way Rakhmaninov could, and Debussy remains untouched in his ability to produce impressionistic music bordering on atonal yet somehow rich in harmony. Nothing in prog comes close to some of the more adventurous composers of the twentieth century; "classical" knows no limits, prog rock is limited by the "rock" boundary. Zappa probably knew this. I've never heard of tests that prove whether prog makes you smarter or not - the only test results I've seen that have come to any conclusion were for the music of Bach and Mozart, both of whom achieved absolute purity in their music - so I would guess that would rule prog as a genre right out - except for those bands with a degree of purity. From that we could surmise that those who listen to Pink Floyd, Marillion and Camel are pretty bright... |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 16:15
I find the use of "esoteric" and "aleatory" in the same sentence wonderfully ironic given the thread's title.
-------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 19:55
Oh well there you have it. And most people think prog sucks, so prog must be worthless too... |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 21:23
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At last I will answer this question. I don't believe Prog' makes you smarter, what i do believe is that people who listen progressive rock are people with a higher level of culture or education. In my country the prog' listener is a person that comes froma private schooll media A class (rich kids usually don't listen prog' bu7t the prog fan had to be wealthy enough to buy albums from other coutries because in Perpu doesn't exist), with a University degree (At least intelligent enough to go to a university and get a degree usually in science), most of them with a classical music formation when kids and at least one parent that listens this kind of music. So, I believe Prog fans are at least as intelligent as any person who studies a career but with a higher cultural background. About the scientific tests: A few years ago I was witnes of a test done by a Peruvian researcher who is also a proghead for his thesis; he prepared three rooms with mice and plants. On the first one he played Classical music, in the second one Progressive Rock and in the third one only mainstream radio. In the classical room, the plants grew faster and the mice increased their speed in the tests, despite the fact that the volume was very high. In the Progressive Rock room, neither the mice or plants showed any change. In the mainstream room, the mice became aggressive and most of the plants died. So at least Progressive Rock is not harmful, except for our salary. Ivn
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 21:30
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Quote Ivan On the first one he played Classical music, in the second one Progressive Rock and in the third one only mainstream radio. In the classical room, the plants grew faster and the mice increased their speed in the tests, despite the fact that the volume was very high. In the Progressive Rock room, neither the mice or plants showed any change. In the mainstream room, the mice became aggressive and most of the plants died. Did the scientist bother to enter the third room where mainstream was played for watering the plants and feeding the mice? ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 21:31
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We all knew (some of us since 30 years ago) that for the people who listen mainstream Prog' sucks, or to be more exact, they don't even know it exists. Something absolutely normal for a genre that has no radio diffusion, it's ignored by media, suffers boycott from the musical industry (Ask Wakeman if AM wants to release again his albums) but when a genre like Rap that has radio, DJ's, Musical Industry and MTV support, is considered crap, well it means something I'm not saying this poll proves it's worthless, only shows that I'm not the only one that believes Rap is crap. Ivn |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 21:42
This work took several months and because I was a friend of him and his brother , I saw the how seriously he took it. Ivn |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 21:53
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It might be a serious studie, but what did he tried to prove/investigate. Why wasn't there a 4th and a fifth room (silence and random sounds). Did he made one room of each or was it done in duplo. How can one relate/translate this results to (consiously absorbing) humans, or was that not the intend? irrelevant questions maybe, but I can't take this studie seriously. (is there a website where I can check his findings). With all love and respect to you. and your brothers studie. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 11 2005 at 21:59
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Please Tuxon we're talking about a University Thesis done in 1985 in Per (Internet was not common here until the very late 90's) you're asking too much if you want it on Internet. In those years the Thesis (including mine) were done in typewritters because almost nobody had a PC, i had the luck to use word star even when I did it in the 1986) I believe that the studies in silence and with ambiental noise were done before him and served as the starting point for his project (he measured the rooms taking the silence room results as the base and even compared his results with ambiental noise), he was trying to prove the influence of music in the behaviour. By the way, he is not my brother, only a good friend. Ivn |