Yes, now a discussion ostensibly about IQ's Dark Matter has become the latest vehicle for some  who want to "have a go" at America here. Why?

 I, for one, while certainly no fan of G. W. Bush and many of his government's policies, am sick of it! Music should bring people together, but no other nationality gets singled out here for abuse as the Americans do. Perhaps this is predictable -- their country is by far the most powerful on earth -- but last time I checked, folks like Danbo, Garion, James Lee, Eddy and Three Fates had not invaded anyone, or singled anyone else out for ridicule simply on the basis of where they are from. Russians, Germans, Brits (hey, Britain is an American ally in Iraq), etc. can all identify their homelands and post here without fear of being singled out, or blamed for the actions of their past and present leaders, but not so with the Americans. I know for a fact that many of them (and of their friends & fellow prog fans from elsewhere) are getting increasingly fed up with this state of affairs.

The American prog fans here are humans, like you, with feelings. Like you, they did not choose where they were born.

Please, take your anti-American rants (some of which may be entirely justified, if you are complaining about the US government, and not all Americans) elsewhere, to a more politically-oriented forum, because you are poisoning the atmosphere of this one, with your ill-considered, blanket condemnations.

Please, all, take this in the spirit in which this is intended -- I am not here to make enemies -- I just want a more welcoming, considerate forum here. I am pleased to say that I think that the great majority of members here are fine people, who likely wait until they know someone, before forming an opinion about that person.

For the record, I have an extended family that includes Americans. They are nice people, and I quite like them. I may not always agree with all of their points of view, but we have more in common than we do that which would divide us, and we get along.

At the risk of sounding naive, if we can't all get along, can't we at least be civil, and avoid tarring everyone from one huge, diverse country with the same brush?

As with any western democracy -- in fact, any country -- there are things to condemn in America (there is also much to praise), but unless your country is without a blemish, why cast stones at strangers? Please, lighten up, live and let live, and help make this a truly "progressive" rock forum, where all can feel welcome, regardless of where they live.

Shall we divide into pro-choice and pro-life camps next? Is this the place to do it?

yes, give us americans alone. we have feelINGS!I cared when my dog died, it meant we got a new puppy, which are alot more fuyn to play with! i dont like bush either HES A COMPLETE MORON!@ gIVE US A BREAK YOU GUYS!We have to praticly run the world! we doent need trouble from you ENGLAND MONKEES!

. nice speech peter. said very good.in all serousness. I Ussually am not offended by you guys. But do take care of respecting eeveryone and the country which they live in! WE ALL LOVE PROG 

I didn't see much bashing In the Dark Matter thread, other than an offence made to my ancesters killing black Africans, but probably I'm too sensitive

As usual I don't understand much about the fuss being made. Read the thread again and tell me where the bashing begins and how it develops.

I'm not free of sin and will not cast a first stone, nor a second a third or a last.

believing a discussion about politics - religion or other potentially controversial subjects does not belong on a forum about prog-music is your good right. But then don't get involved in such discussions yourself, refrain from replying and smother such a discussion with silence, instead of an offencive-deffencive stance. Which will ultimatly lead to another reply, and so on.

On that particular thread i responded to an argument you made (about how americans died to rescue us from the nazi's, or something like that), which I did not think was apropriate, it was a foolish remark, and you where not the first to come up with that argument, so I thought it would be nice if I pointed that out. Maybe I was to harsh for your taste, then so be it (although the last sentence on that particular reply was not nescessary, and maybe shouldn't have been there).

Again we have a discussion about sensorship, cause that is what this is. Making a topic taboo (eg, the bashing of Amerika (not included in this taboo is bashing Mariah Carey, Phill Collins, Styx, other people on this forum on a more personal note, Music we don't like etc.)) this is the ultimate sensorship.

Of course the sheep will applaud you for your great idea, let's not bash America, but they don't understand that they'll be giving up the possibility of forming an own independant opinion. and learn/hear about other ways of thinking about a subject.

If we can't speak freely anymore on what we want to say, how much credibility will a forum have. Let's just stick to the "Keep Quiet" thread then.

What is bashing America????????????????????

Of course in any discussion people can get offended. Purposely intended or by accident.

I have no meaning of offending anyone, and if occasionaly I do, I'm sorry for that.

Possibly purpetuated by yet another thread on the subject.

No offence, Peter, you feel strongly about this and want to have your say. Fair enough, but by merely mentioning it, this thread may well go down the bashing route yet again. It will only take one of us Euro's or indeed a Canadian, to say something like 'I will stop bashing America when America...' etc.. to cause argument or offence.

One of the shortfalls of free speech is that people tend to 'speak freely' on whatever subject they choose. If they want to bash, they will. If they feel strongly that a country deserves to be 'bashed' because of the actions of its leaders, then they will go ahead and say what they think. You are not going to stop the trend by complaining about it. You can limit the upsetting effect it apparently has by simply deleting threads that cause a problem. Alternativly ban all discussion on politics and religion. The moderators, in both instances, will be accused of censorship then, but you cant have it both ways, I'm afraid.

BAAA BAAA HERES ANOTHER SHEEP!!!

HERE, HERE PETER I AGREE, THIS IS A MUSIC DISCUSSION FORUM AND WHILE DISCUSSIONS ON MANY SUBJECTS IS WELCOME THIS AMERICA BASHING IS GETTING TIRING.

THE FACT IS ALL COUNTRIES MAKE DECISIONS THAT ARE NOT ALWAYS LOOKED ON FAVOURABLY AND MOST IF NOT ALL COUNTRIES,LIKE PEOPLE,ARE GUILTY OF TRANSGRESSIONS,INDEED,VARIOUS GOVERNMENTS OF MY COUNTRY,AUSTRALIA HAVE BEEN GUILTY IN THE PAST OF TREADING ON SMALL PACIFIC NATIONS IN ORDER TO PROTECT ITS INTERESTS SO FOR ME TO POINT THE FINGER AT THE U.S OR OTHER COUNTRIES FOR ILLS REAL OR PERCEIVED WOULD BE HYPOCRITICAL.

SO LETS JUST TONE DOWN THE ANTI US CRAP AND CONCENTRATE MORE ON THE THINGS THAT UNITE US SUCH AS MUSIC, HUMOUR AND REALLY DUMB JOKES!!

MY GOODNESS THERE IS ENOUGH TRAGEDY IN THE WORLD AS IT IS AT THE MOMENT SO LETS BE A BETTER UNITED NATIONS THAN THE CURRENT ONE.

EXCEPT FOR BRITAIN AND CANADA.... NOW THERE ARE TWO REALLY  STRANGE COUNTRIES

OOOOOOOOPS SOMEWHERE IN ENGLAND JIM IS ABOUT TO RELEASE THE ATTACK BADGERS

Q: HOW MANY AUSTRALIANS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHTBULB.

A: WHATS A LIGHTBULB?

Here we go again.

sighs..........................yawns........................ ..stretches.

As one who has never been frightened of running off at the mouth or keyboard I find all this unecessary. Why dont these people who are supposedly fed up with this so-called America bashing say so?

It seems to me that every fortnight or so, Peter stands up and informs us that "they are fed up with this" or "certain one's of the old guard are increasingly disappearing because of that"

Who the hell are these people Peter and why don't they speak up for themselves in "public" instead of muttering away in the background (cosy PM's?)?

I thought that discussion, in this area of the forum, about America at the time of the Elections was relevant-for those that wanted to take part.

I agree that this subject is less relevant now, but there will always be people like myself who will jump in with remarks, for comedy value!

Why aren't these people more forthright with their objections? I made a very silly post last week and Jim slated me for it-he was right and I apologised, frankly and fully in my opinion.I also apologised to the person I upset. I didnt feel humiliated or threatened, because whilst sometimes I behave like a child, I am actually an adult. Some of the adults here should try behaving like children occasionally -they might have fun. Fun, remember that?

I think some people should re-read the discussions about why people dislike Prog Rock. Strangely enough, it may be because they dont want to be associated with the legion of stuffed-shirts who listen to it!

Agree with you Reed..

Whose bleating James? Are you saying that you are one of the shadowy characters?

Always thought you were one of the more ahem () forthright characters on this forum.

And what is wrong with Pallas?

And in the spirit of not bashing anyone I call you all to sing along with Pallas and hold your lighters aloft..

'All the world now, join hands as one..

The first time since the world has begun..

All the world, I'm calling you now. Join hands with me..

The first time since the world has begun..'

smell the cheese!!!!!

Blacksword wrote: And in the spirit of not bashing anyone I call you all to sing along with Pallas and hold your lighters aloft.. 'All the world now, join hands as one.. The first time since the world has begun.. All the world, I'm calling you now. Join hands with me.. The first time since the world has begun..' smell the cheese!!!!!

Alan: Do you want some cheese?
Tony: [Sitting back, slightly worried]  No thanks.
Alan: [Sniffs it] Mmm. Quite nice. Smells. Do you
want to smell it? [Alan offers the cheese, still on
the end of his fork, to Tony.]
Tony: No thanks.
Alan: Smell the cheese.
Tony: No I don’t want to.
Alan: [More forcefully] Smell my cheese!
Tony: Alan, please.
Alan: [Shouting] Smell my cheese, you mother!
(Alan thrusts the cheese in Tonys face)

Reed Lover wrote: And what is wrong with Pallas?

Man, I'd forgotten how good an album cover that was and to top it all off, I like Americans too. The similarities between our culture and politics far outweigh our differences.

I do suspect however that what might drive many of these 'slanging matches' is that the UK used to be what America is now, A world power who is answerable to almost no-one. It didn't really work for us and subconsciously, I suspect many Britons wouldn't like a great nation like the USA to repeat those mistakes. In short, be proud of who you are but also be nice to people on your way up as you might meet them again on the way down.

Britain's empire was an active one. The British actually went and lived in the places we stole from its indigenous populations. We build railways, cities, trade routes, forced entire nations to speak English over their native tongues, think like westerners and if they didn't, we killed their men and then their women and children. We did all this and then asked the survivors to serve us our tea. Britain has nothing to be proud of in this respect.

As a result, we as a nation know from experience what the world looks like after losing your superpowers. It's a big playground with many pairs of eyes looking at you all saying the same thing 'Now for some payback'. That day might be many years from now and American citizens today my never see its nation's fall from power; but their children might. In the UK, my generation did.

I cannot speak for the many nations represented on this fantastic site but for me, it sometimes feels that, like many of the Eastern European countries in the last century, an iron curtain is slowly being built between the ancient, old and new world.

Anyway er...that Pallas album cover is great. 

sigod wrote:

'Britain's empire was an active one. The British actually went and lived in the places we stole from its indigenous populations. We build railways, cities, trade routes, forced entire nations to speak English over their native tongues, think like westerners and if they didn't, we killed their men and then their women and children. We did all this and then asked the survivors to serve us our tea. Britain has nothing to be proud of in this respect.'

Well, I'm with you on this, sigod, but this is how disagreements start. For many people our invading and raping of other cultures was 'helping' them and 'teaching' them how to be civilized, and to not live like savages. That is the old school take on the British empire.

It is ironic that Hitler was a great admirer of our empire and was inspired to strive for his own based on the model we had created. His vision was a world where Britain ruled the waves and Germany ruled the air, and together we went around kicking the arses of dark skinned people.

The comparisons with Nazi Germany are not flattering for Britain. The parallels between the Reichstag fire and 9/11 are even more shocking and inflammatory.

Sorry to stray off topic. Peace, goodwill and Pallas records to all men..

Reed, if "they" speak up, they get ganged up on, stomped, and the situation escalates, or so history here would indicate.

Passive resistance -- me, I'm a hot-head....

  Anyway, it seems that at any given time, a large number of people here (and even on other forums!) are pissed at me, others are patting me on the back, while the (perhaps wiser) majority sit it out, talk about (gasp!) prog, and wait for the storm to blow over. (I seem to be unable to "bite my tongue.")

Time for me to take a break from all of this, I think, and "earn my keep" around here by writing some (much less controversial!) reviews. < (That "stern smile" is for myself!)

Wonder how long my resolve will last -- as many of you know, this place can be highly addictive!

TTYL 

Velvetclown wrote: thread very carefully

How elegantly put.  

Peter wrote: Reed, if "they" speak up, they get ganged up on, stomped, and the situation escalates, or so history here would indicate. Passive resistance -- me, I'm a hot-head....

So,they keep their heads below the parapet.

That's called cowardice in my book.

I'd rather break wind in the Halls of the Mighty!

Well Peter, it is nice to know you care about all people’s feelings it seems no matter where they come from. I have debated on this place everything from what a republican is or isn't to why do we have deficits in our federal governments budget. I find that the world first of all has a greater knowledge of our systems, policies and practices of government than we here in America do of theirs.     (I also see we are the only country attacked or criticized for anything and everything from our president to our many faiths.  These critisims are not always nice and some become personal. )

At the same time though these opinions seem to have only one general view.  I do not think everything they say is correct or accurate just as I think that everything my government says is correct and accurate.  It is all a matter of perception.  It is like trying to describe a battle scene some people from what they hear from others and othes describing what it was like to be in it.  Neither one is a complete nor accurate representation of what it really is.

I have no problem with criticism of my government or my country. Just be fair and listen to what we write back.  Place it along side your own perception and see if it makes sense.  That is all.  America ain't perfect !!!!! I am the first American to say so.  If you don't like GWB he will be gone like it or not in 4 years. He won't have a choice.  That is also our system. 

And Reed, you know I would much rather laugh than argue. I really agree with your post.  I really do try to take a lighthearted approach to everything here (Hell, how can you take much here seriously? ) and join in the fun as much as possible!   Becoming more childlike sometimes is a good thing.

Gdub it is time to call off the invasion.

I have not yet heard "Dark Matter, but I understand some of the lyrics question some US policies. As such, the album and its contents are a legitimate topic for discussion here.

I don't percieve much anti American feeling in the IQ thread, other than some trolling by Miyaru, and some minor feeding of the trolls. I thought Lobster made some excellent points, and spoke in a considered and sensible way.

I don't think there is "Relentless American bashing" in the forum, but there will always be those who get their kicks from making inflamatory comments. If I had a penny for every time someone has suggested Scots are mean, I'd have nine pounds and fifty six pence by now, (which I could have invested at a good rate of interest too!)

Have a good break Peter, hurry back! Time you wrote a decent review anyway!

Garion81 wrote: Gdub it is time to call off the invasion.

No Invasion!!!....Shucks!!.........

Actually I love all the Euro's around this forum. They are well educated and I look up to many of them for their well informed, and insightful opinions.

Peter wrote:   Anyway, it seems that at any given time, a large number of people here (and even on other forums!) are pissed at me, others are patting me on the back, while the (perhaps wiser) majority sit it out, talk about (gasp!) prog, and wait for the storm to blow over. (I seem to be unable to "bite my tongue.") Time for me to take a break from all of this, I think, and "earn my keep" around here by writing some (much less controversial!) reviews. < (That "stern smile" is for myself!) Wonder how long my resolve will last -- as many of you know, this place can be highly addictive! TTYL

Oh Geez Peter...you better not be gone for long. Who cares what other think of America? What will I do without your wisdom and insight? Now I'll have to create another identity for this place. If I ,of all people on this forum , can saywho cares , then so can tolerant Peter.

Anyways I find their bashing ...well....imformative....and kind of endearing.

gdub411 wrote: [QUOTE=Peter] ...you better not be gone for long. Who cares what other think of America? What will I do without your wisdom and insight? Now I'll have to create another identity for this place. If I ,of all people on this forum , can saywho cares , then so can tolerant Peter. Anyways I find their bashing ...well....imformative....and kind of endearing.

Quite right Gdub. Hurry back too Peter, this forum is a better place for your input. Opinion, right or wrong as always better voiced than kept to yourself.

James Lee wrote: Peter: I say this with all esteem and friendship...but your icon should be a revolving door!

I just need a break James -- write some reviews, sleep, work & read more, etc.

I'm not angry or anything, just trying to control my own life/computer use.

Bye for now,

Ps: when I return, I vow to have a thicker skin, and "defend" only myself. (Though I might post the odd "."

TTYL, all! Be good!

I'll give it a week at most.........see you soon.

Peter Ridesout again! More farewells than Sinatra

He's got a good point. Here it is, one of the few gloriously incongruous days we have snow on the ground here in Vegas, and instead of being out in it, I'm on the PC chatting about a 30 year old Yes album and a bunch of books that are at least twice as old. Maybe I should follow his lead and get something important done for once!

OK, I'm back. It's cold and wet and real people can see me out there.

Stumbled on this photo, while searching for ordinary dreams for great people.

(this would be an ordinary dream to me)

That's why American Foreign Policy is so short-sighted!

Reed Lover wrote: Dunno, but Threefates can polish the instruments...

Only Gregs!!

Peter and All:

As a matter of policy, no subject will be considered "verboten" on this site.  Yes, it is a music site.  However, that is why we have a category called "discussions not related to music": for discussions related to anything else, including politics, religion, etc.

In this regard, and pursuant to the guideliines for the site, if any unnecessary or inappropriate "nation-bashing" - i.e., enough to rise near or to the level of "personal attack" (though that would seem difficult) - is found in "regular" threads, those posts may be edited or deleted.  However, if someone wants to start a political or religious thread in the proper place - here, at "discussions not related to music" - they can do so, and "nation-bash" to the heart's content.  That's what we call "protected free speech," and this site will not be put in a position of undue censorship or repression.

If someone is offended by that speech, they have two choices: (i) participate in the thread via defense or otherwise, or (ii) ignore the thread and not participate.  No one is "forcing" anyone to participate in any particular thread, or to endure hurtful comments: personal ones are not permitted at any time, and anything not personal is, by definition (at PA), "free and protected speech."

We hope that our members will be courteous and respectful toward each other.  However, while we monitor and will edit or delete if necessary, we are not "thought police" or "speech police"; if a member becomes "obstreporous" in their attitude or approach, they will be permitted to do so as long as any "negative" comments are not personal in nature.

Thus, keep threads on non-music - and especially controversial - topics in the "discussions not related to music," and all will be well.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding in this regard.

Peace.

Reed Lover wrote: That's why American Foreign Policy is so short-sighted!

Does it come with a remote?