Can each type of Metal be progressive?
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Topic: Can each type of Metal be progressive?
Posted By: Trickster F.
Subject: Can each type of Metal be progressive?
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 09:42
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This has been a question I tried to answer subconsciously for a very long time myself, as the idea sprang today, I thought I would better make it public and see if my thoughts at the moment match anyone else's.
Is Progressive Metal a specific sub-genre of Metal or just a trait that applies to various unconnected bands in the scene?
Years ago, I had no doubts about things tagged as 'Progressive Metal' being some kind of an elite force in, as I thought, a declining and regressive Metal scene. Progressive Metal for me meant an interesting, unusual twist and, most importantly, an influence from 70's Symphonic and general Prog. As I listened to more bands from the genre, I started to come to an opposite conclusion: Progressive Metal may not even be influenced by 70's Prog, and Symphonic tendencies are unneccessary, as neither Symphonic is the only type of classic prog, nor is a direct Prog influence crucial to make a band do something that does not really fit within a certain genre. It looks like the tag 'progressive', when used towards peculiar and bizarre modern Metal acts, means 'extraordinary' and 'innovative', as well as filled with potential of a great future and progressive tendencies, rather than the old definition 'sounding like Dream Theater'.
I have begun to believe that the tag 'progressive' separates the Progressive Metal bands instead of uniting them, as differences are many and not too hard to notice even during a superficial approach.
So, the main question is, is there an opposite to Prog within whatever genre of Metal? Let's try to look over to see whether that is true or not, by trying to find one example for each sub-genre of Metal when a band is obviously within that specific genre's scene, meaning sound, but has got major progressive tendencies.
Traditional Metal - half of the popular bands under the tag 'Progressive Metal' fit this definitin.
Hair Metal - Queensryche.
Thrash Metal - Meshuggah.
Death Metal - Atheist, for example.
Power Metal - Blind Guardian, Rhapsody and Nightwish are often called Progressive Power Metal, but this is not agreed with, so drop me a better, less controversial example.
Black Metal - uh, Solefald(I had to slap my face twice before coming up with a choice out of so many in mind, and I am still not too happy)
Doom Metal - I'd name My Dying Bride's 2nd-4th albums, but I am not in a majority thinking that way, so shall we say Green Carnation's LODDOD?
Folk Metal - Agalloch.
Metalcore - Between The Buried And Me.
Grindcore - !T.O.O.H!(correct the wrong symbols).
Industrial Metal - Ulver's Themes.
Gothic Metal - In The Woods...?(Most bands considered Gothic are not really Gothic whatsoever, so I'd rather not comment on this one)
Nu-Metal - SOAD, but I do not endorse this.
Let's see if we can come up with a list each of us agrees on in a limited amount of time. ------------- sig |
Replies:
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 11:38
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I think some metal genres are just too simplistic and aimed at
mainstream appeal in general so that if a band in it were to develope
progressive tendencies it could no longer be viewed as a member of that
genre. Speaking of the genres Hair Metal and Nu-Metal really where I
don't agree with either of your examples.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Benjamin_Breeg
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:00
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I've been asking myself this for a while too. I think that progressive metal can be a separated genre and only a complement tag at the same time. For example bands like Dream Theater, Ark, Vanden Plas and Pain of Salvation for me belong to the Genre Progressive Metal cause the influence of other styles is not so strong like in bands like Opeth, Arcturus and Axamenta that make a Extreme Metal with Progressive approach. This is a very delicated question that i would like to discuss more cause im still very confused xD ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Dream_Thief_/?chartstyle=Geldropdown2"> 
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:11
Interesting thread, but I'm lost looking at the above quote. Are you trying to find an opposite of prog in each genre or is the list a seperate thing? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Trickster F. wrote:Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:15
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Thanks for noticing, I think my thoughts were coming out quicker then I was typing and it slipped through. I meant to invite everyone to find a Progressive band in each genre, not the other way around, although that's how it must have seemed. If I did the opposite, it would be too simple, wouldn't it?
I'll correct my post, adding a sentence for the original post to make more sense. ------------- sig |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:34
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I personally hold the belief that the quintessential or most perfect representation of Progressive Metal are bands called Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation, Zero Hour, Vanden Plas, Tool, and etc. Opeth really opened up the door for more and more bands to be classified as Progressive Metal. I think if Opeth isn't classified as Progressive Metal, very few extreme bands if any would be considered Progressive Metal now. In other words Progressive Metal is a genre of bands like Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation, but other bands do Progressive things with their music. -------------  
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 12:54
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I think we try to call progressive rock a genre, but it's not really. I mean how can "progressive" be a genre. A genre implies something static. It implies sameness. If you really want define a band by it's sameness, then it's not progressive by definition of the word right? Naturally there is some amount of sameness between bands, and that's why we can categorize them at all. I'm speaking very abstractly, but for example you have bands that obviously play something that sounds like metal. If a band that plays metal-like music does something completely new and original with the sound of metal, then it is "making progress" on the sound of metal. In my eyes, the band is worthy of being called a progressive metal band. But if two bands are doing something different in the same way, then one of them can't be progressive. Does this "make a genre"? Well, not really, but it's a good way of characterizing music that people like you and I will enjoy. So in my opinion, a band in ANY subgenre of metal can be progressive. In fact, any band in any genre can be progressive if they are striving for originality. Do you agree? -------------  
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Posted By: Benjamin_Breeg
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 13:07
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uh that was quite confusing aahahhauhauhaua but i get it now let me see Death Metal: Death Black Metal: Borknagar Power Metal: Angra Folk Metal: Agalloch Thrash Metal: Nevermore ( i'm still wondering why they aren't in the archives) Nu-Metal: System of a Down ( i really see some prog in their music) Doom Metal: Anathema Gothic Metal: Epica i will not put grindcore, metalcore and industrial cause i don't like, don't listen and don't know a thing about this kind of music ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Dream_Thief_/?chartstyle=Geldropdown2">
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 13:57
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@Trickster: now I understand, thanks for the clarification. I'm not even going to try and have better guesses at representatives from all the metal genres. I tend to believe that, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, if a band 'progresses' the way metal is played, it can be called progressive. If I look at the definition of progressive metal as used on this site, the number of bands that fit the definition in your list is limited or zero. Looking at other genres listed on this site, it could very well be that progressive metal should be split into multiple, similar to what is done with progressive rock. In that case, we may end up with progressive thrash, progressive doom, progressive death metal and so on. Not sure if that makes things more clear for visitors and people trying to find out about progressive metal though... I guess what I'm saying is that I understand your issue: there's more metal that progresses than just progressive metal, and that load is not going te covered by one definition. Something for the prog metal specialist squad to dive into. Where's Mike when you need him most?  ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 14:12
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Very interesting... I also used to think that Progressive Metal was a kind of...virtuoso heavy metal with its roots in Iron Maiden and Metallica, as Dream Theater and maybe Synphony x... But then I discovered Pain of Salvation, Opeth, Tool...etc and I realized that its almoust always Heavy metal, whatever this may be with more elaborated, sophisticated structures and adventurous passages... then I also began to think that bands like Symphony x may not be that progressive, but more of virtuoso metal, full of shreading...but progressive?...well, maybe but Im not so sure Well, if you ask me the best example of Progressive metal, or to begin understanding progressive metal would be Ayreons albums, this ones are truly 50% metal and 50% prog... or better yet, 50% metal and 50% symphonic ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 14:30
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I think any form of metal can be progressive, but I dont think is that any metal that progresses is prog. For instance I would say that Kamalot's The Black Halo is progressive for Power Metal but I wouldnt call it prog, however I dont think you could call Pain Of Salvation and Dream Theater anything other than prog metal.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 14:47
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Also of note (and often overlooked) is Progressive Sludge Metal, with bands like Isis, Pelican, and Callisto.
------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: patomtz
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 15:30
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I was about to make this poll!! but better haha ------------- I still can't get how Dream Theater music is created by humans Dream Theater in Monterrey, Mexico 03.03.06 Unforgettable 
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Posted By: Swanhild
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 15:33
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Trickster, for progressive power metal Symphony X would be a suitable choice? It may be difficult to think of Symphony X this way, I guess; we are quite used to think of them as a 'prog metal' band. But if there is not such a subgenre, then this example would not fit? |
Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: September 09 2006 at 23:58
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SOAD isn't really nu metal or prog. They're just a hard rock band.
People called them nu-metal to try to connect them with the bands of the time (limp Bizkit and Korn and whatever), and once those bands fizzled out, they needed a new label, so they sprinkled a few Zappa influences in their sound and people started calling them prog. ------------- 
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Posted By: xtopher
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 02:44
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Oh man... genreizing makes my head hurt... But I will try to contribute something. In my observation, I have found music to be very cyclical. You can never not be influenced by someone else, yet on the other hand, you must distinguish yourself as an individual artist. So being an artist is almost an exercise in contradiction. This contradiction is magnified within the boundaries of progressive rock, thanks to how we popularly characterize what is "prog" as fans. Today's "prog" is supposed to be influenced by older "prog"; but "prog" is supposed to push the boundaries, be unique and unprecedented—in other words, it's supposed to be "progressive." So anything we label as prog is cursed with this intense contradiction. Therefore, I don't think the question is whether one of these definitions of "prog" is better than the other; I think the goal of the artist is to balance these two seeming contradictions. Nothing any artist makes will ever be completely new. Nevertheless, the artist takes what s/he knows and makes it different, makes it better, makes it their own. So if genreizing is your thing, then I have this to say: it would be possible to make/classify any type of metal as progressive. But due to the arbitrary rules and definitions we create, we may ourselves keep this from happening. Example: I really wouldn't consider System of a Down as prog. But why is this? I believe it would be their influence: I have a hard time hearing any prog influence at all in their sound (though that doesn't mean it's not there). On the other hand, with a blend of modern (and bordering on the extreme) metal and world music, there's no doubt SoaD are fairly unique and original, and thus fairly "progressive". It seems to me that the definition we stick with for prog-metal is a metal band with notable prog influences or a prog band with notable metal influences—characteristics most of us would give for Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation, etc. So the cycle lives on... We love the bands who respect the past, and we love the bands who embrace the future. Hopefully these two mindsets can coexist and thrive. (Hope that makes sense.) ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 03:21
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Let's try to keep the good old prog metal categories chart in mind: http://www.progtology.com/home/progarchives/progmetalchart/subgenres.xhtml - http://www.progtology.com/home/progarchives/progmetalchart/subgenres.xhtml R.I.P.!  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 03:42
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1.classic metal - Iron Maiden 2.power metal - Helloween 3.progressive metal - Queensryche 4.glam/hair metal - Twisted Sister 5.thrash Metal - Destruction 6.death metal - Death (what else?) 7.black metal - Emperor 8.atmosheric/goth - bands like As Divine Grace or 3rd And The Mortal 9.nu metal - Machine Head 10.folk metal - Skyclad 11.grind metal - Napalm Death 12.NWOSHM - In Flames 13.US/hardcore metal - Lamb Of God (14.White Metal - Strypes  )
------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 03:46
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All that is pure invention. You can invent all sub genres and categories you want, there's not the smallest progressive element in all that. This is just garbage teenage music, IMO! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 03:55
Olivier, of course you have every right to express your opinion... Only remember that here there are people who like that genre, and not all of them are teenagers (I also like some metal, as you might remember, and I'm definitely NOT a teenager!) - and opinions can and should be expressed in a more subdued way to avoid offending others. As to invention or the presence of progressive elements, I think this is an ongoing debate, and that on this website or others there is no agreement on what constitutes progressive... This is what you think, but no one can say it's the gospel truth. We're not talking hard sciences here, but an art form. |
Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:00
i don't know if you say that for my post but all i did was to name the metal genres IMO and give an example.. i don't think that those are prog either...just metal... as far as "garbage teenage music" is concerned, i respect your opinion but you should listen to Savatage or Fates and a few other hundreds of metal bands and maybe you changed your mind... ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:10
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Heavy Metal is derived from Heavy Rock, a hybrid of electrified Rock and Blues. Prog metal is a vary recent form of metal to my ears, though many metal "genres" are over-complicated since most bands can be associated with many categories not just one.......
f'rinstance....Iron Maiden - NWOBHM, Heavy metal, power metal, hair metal, stadium rock, goth metal, thrash metal, Prog metal..?????
..BTW that's naughty Oliver saying metal is garbage teenage music - early rock'n'roll and jazz was thus judged once upon a time you know! you sound like my dad god rest his soul.
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:28
Yep, Kayo Dot and Spastic Ink are the definition of "garbage teenage music". It's a good thing somebody here knows what they're talking about. |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:43
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progressive music has to do with informality, abstraction, gradual process or changeable harmonic expressions. The sources come from "concepts" which emerged outside of popular music; coming from avant garde, classical music and non-western music. I see this genre as abstract expressionism or music for the brain...none metal pigheads can pretend to reach this musical aesthetic. ------------- 
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:50
i feel sorry for you... ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:52
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you are just on the defensive I understand -------------
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:52
yep, i'm a pighead... ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:53
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certainly -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:56
 Seriously, can't you at least *try* to be tolerant? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:56
have you considered therapy? ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:57
Can you sometimes consider things in their correct definition? -------------
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Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:58
| Just ignore philippe, he's a joke but a bad one. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 04:58
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Sorry, guys, this discussion has become abusive once again, so I think it would be better to close it for the time being, until tempers have cooled again. It really seems some people never learn...  |