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Requesting Ulver's category be changed

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Forum Name: Help us improve the site
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27958
Printed Date: March 04 2025 at 02:24
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Topic: Requesting Ulver's category be changed
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Subject: Requesting Ulver's category be changed
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 18:49
While doing my Ulver review the other day, I noticed they were in experiment/post-rock subdivision.

I would like to propose that they be switched to the category of Art Rock.


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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums



Replies:
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 19:01
ART ROCK:

Not a sub-genre, as much as a category. Bands included in Art Rock may have very few things in common, other than the fact that they are all 100% Progressive Rock bands.

The term Art Rock has evolved from being synonymous with Progressive Rock in the early 70's, to being considered the borderline between Progressive Rock and mainstream in the 90's. However, the term has changed again with the new century, and below are the characteristics of the bands that will be included in this category:

1.     100% Prog bands
2.     Bands that are beyond the limits of the sub-genre parameters, or
3.     Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent, or                                                        
4.     Bands that have characteristics of two or more different sub-genres and can't be reasonably classified in either, or
5.     Bands that are one of a kind, and for that reason can't be included as part of any sub-genre.



(The main difference with Prog-Related is that in this second category the bands included are not usually accepted as Prog bands, or are simply non Prog bands that have influenced or been influenced by the genre.)

Prog Archives accepts that this is a very generic category, but we believe it is necessary to avoid creating endless sub-genres for each eclectic band that appears.


Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 19:15
I think Ulver more or less fit that description

They went from a folkish/black metal sounding band to a tech-house band. A band with one of the most broad range of musical sounds on this site.


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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 05:55
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

3.     Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent...
 
This point makes the "art rock" category to absorb many bands, which could also be described with several genres. Ofcourse, this is just a thought brought up by observation, I believe the current version of the site doesn't allow this.


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:11
Perhaps it would make sense to rename Art Rock to "Various Genres"?Wink

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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:15
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Perhaps it would make sense to rename Art Rock to "Various Genres"?Wink
Now come on, let's be both serious and creative and question the current status of things! Tongue


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:21
^ I am serious - although I should have called it "Various Prog Genres". It's for prog bands that either changed their genre throughout their discography, or have a style that doesn't fit in the other genres.

About being creative: I don't know any better solution other than taking the genre assignment to the album level.


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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:26
Me and Bryan discussed Ulver's re-categorising yesterday. We haven't come to a certain conclusion yet, however, what we agree on is that Ulver are suitable ANYWHERE but in Art Rock, since they don't normally rock out.
 
They are well off where they are at the moment, as they have recorded at least 4 albums of obvious Post-Rock tendencies, however, I am thinking about moving them to Progressive Electronic. Art Rock is quite stupid, if you ask me, and they don't fit with the other bands.


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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:29
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I am serious - although I should have called it "Various Prog Genres". It's for prog bands that either changed their genre throughout their discography, or have a style that doesn't fit in the other genres.

About being creative: I don't know any better solution other than taking the genre assignment to the album level.
 
OK, sorry, I thought you very joking. Embarrassed I quess you know I support also the categorisation of albums. Maybe artists genre could then automaticly be concluded from those genres?
 
EDIT: I have heard only the flok album by ULVER, which was quite OK and a surprising find. I think I'll try some of their early metal stuff next.


Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:31
I also agree with Mike about the name Art Rock making no sense at all. We could name it Various Genres or General Progressive Rock or something like that. However, the definition of Art Prog we have at the moment has nothing to do with the common one. I mean, Peter Gabriel, David Bowie and The Flaming Lips are associated with Art Rock according to many music critics, whilst others use the term 'Art Rock' as a synonym to what we refer to as "Prog".

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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:33
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I am serious - although I should have called it "Various Prog Genres". It's for prog bands that either changed their genre throughout their discography, or have a style that doesn't fit in the other genres.



Rookie, as always, in this debate, yet I think "Various Prog Genres" would be a very generalized, even ugly name for such a "branch" like the important Art Rock one. A simple generalized pronouncement is the thing needed?


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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:33
Originally posted by Eetu Pellonpää Eetu Pellonpää wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:



About being creative: I don't know any better solution other than taking the genre assignment to the album level.
 
OK, sorry, I thought you very joking. Embarrassed I quess you know I support also the categorisation of albums. Maybe artists genre could then automaticly be concluded from those genres?


Well, I know a website where it is implemented just like you describe it.EmbarrassedWink


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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:37
Originally posted by Eetu Pellonpдд Eetu Pellonpдд wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I am serious - although I should have called it "Various Prog Genres". It's for prog bands that either changed their genre throughout their discography, or have a style that doesn't fit in the other genres.

About being creative: I don't know any better solution other than taking the genre assignment to the album level.
 
OK, sorry, I thought you very joking. Embarrassed I quess you know I support also the categorisation of albums. Maybe artists genre could then automaticly be concluded from those genres?
 
EDIT: I have heard only the flok album by ULVER, which was quite OK and a surprising find. I think I'll try some of their early metal stuff next.
 
Bergtatt is an excellent mix of Black Metal and Norwegian Folk, this is the Metal album you would find interesting, as it greatly influenced the band Agalloch, which I think you must be familiar with. Their other full-length BM release Nattens Madrigal is straight-forward generic, yet well done, true Black Metal, which would not appeal to prog fans.
 
However, their early stuff was not taken into account when they were added to the site. They are here because of their later albums, starting with the experimental multi-genre Themes... and ending with the latest Avant-Rock of Blood Inside. I suggest the two records mentioned, as well as the extraordinary Post-Rock influenced electronics of the musical journey that is Perdition City. They have numerous other release, which, whilst not fitting the title of a masterpiece, are very intriguing and at other times almost enlightening. One of the most diverse bands on the site at the moment, if not THE most diverse.
 
They have a lot of experience with Electronic Music, and do it the progressive way, which is the reason why I think they'd best be in Progressive Electronic. Bryan opposes me with the argument "They don't fit with the rest of the bands in the sub-genre so far", however, they don't fit anywhere perfectly.


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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:54
^ OK. I used to listen some harder heavy music as a teenager, so I can appreciate such music in some mental states.
 
^^ Mike, is it allmusic.com? Big smile


Posted By: darksinger
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:56
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

ART ROCK:

3.     Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent, or                                                        
4.     Bands that have characteristics of two or more different sub-genres and can't be reasonably classified in either, or
5.     Bands that are one of a kind, and for that reason can't be included as part of any sub-genre.

 
Sounds like Ulver...


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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 07:04
Originally posted by darksinger darksinger wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

ART ROCK:

3.     Bands that have evolved so much throughout their career, that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre being pre-eminent, or                                                        
4.     Bands that have characteristics of two or more different sub-genres and can't be reasonably classified in either, or
5.     Bands that are one of a kind, and for that reason can't be included as part of any sub-genre.

 
Sounds like Ulver...
 
Thing is... We don't just drop evolving bands into Art Rock. There is a difference between change of "progressive" genres and a band moving from non-progressive realm to create the polar opposite music. People who think Ulver should be dropped into Art Rock think about their progression from the very first albums to their other, more experimental albums. However, neither Bergtatt, nor Kveldsfanger nor Nattens Madrigal are progressive, which means we should neglect those from influencing our final decision.
 
Imagine a band that played brutal Death Metal and then suddenly became a RIO band. Do we put them under Art Rock or RIO/Avant-Rock? The latter, of course, because they had nothing to do with Prog before the evolution.
 
I say Progressive Electronic, Art Rock makes as little sense as anything to me, although if it is called something else, I'll get back to you with more thoughts.


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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 07:21
Originally posted by Eetu Pellonpää Eetu Pellonpää wrote:

 
^^ Mike, is it allmusic.com? Big smile


LOL no, I was referring to a much http://www.progtology.com/db/albums/_auto_6711998.xhtml - smaller website.Wink


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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 09:58
^ Ah... Tongue



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