John Myung
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Topic: John Myung
Posted By: WaywardSon
Subject: John Myung
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 22:34
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This has been brought up so many times, so I decided to make a poll.
When I listen to DT on headphones it´s hard for me to hear John Myung a lot of the time.
I have watched the DVD "Scenes from New York" hundreds of times and can hardly believe my eyes when I see him play (lets face it, the guy is fantastic!)
Listening to Rush(Geddy Lee) Yes(Chris Squire) or Kansas (Dave Hope) the bass can really be heard, but when listening to DT it is sometimes lost (or drowned out) in the mix.
What is your view.....seriously.....
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Replies:
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 22:44
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I think I can be considered somewhat of an expert on this subject, being that I have studied John Myung's work in Dream Theater extensively over the past two years. I know the guy's positioning and favorite techniques to a tee. The discussion at the moment is his place in the mix, I will talk about this first. John Myung is not the only bassist I've studied, and usually regarding a bassist's quality in the mix, he has to be compared not some ideal standard, but to other bassists not just in his field but others' as well. Compared to metal bassist, John Myung is very present in the mix on studio albums. Furthermore, Myung has a cleaner tone than many rock bassists including the likes of Squire and Lee. What Myung gains in clarity, he loses in volume. Squire and Lee have a great prescence regarding volume, but I find their tones to be nostalgic and awful, they're just too trebly and dirty. John Myung is extremely clear, especially on Awake and Falling Into Infinity, where his tones are quite loud in the mix. He may lose in volume, but if he's audible, it's much better he lose some volume than be louder with a questionable tone. On Live DVDs, his volume is entirely unsatisfactory. Five Years in a Livetime, and Images in Words Live in Tokyo DVDs, his volume is alright, but Scenes From New York and Budokan, he's almost inaudible. This may be because Dream Theater uses headphone stage sound, and the only members of the band that have true stage volume are Portnoy and Petrucci. Rudess, Myung, and of course LaBrie, are ran entirely from the PA system. As a player, Myung is marvelous. He finds the most creative way to move with chords, and has a great sense for supporting melodies, and when he finally gets a chance to cut loose and shred on his instrument, he's just more impressive. This is one bassist that I never grow tired of studying, and so far, I've gotten tired of almost every other bassist I've studied. -------------  
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: Tomodachi
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 22:54
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Waaaaaay too low in the mix! Almost unperceivable in most DT albums, also because he often follows the guitar lines note by note (!). But if you see him live you can realize he's a monster. His sound in Live at Budokan is great. I hope so for Score...
------------- 
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Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 22:57
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Good post AtLossForWords! Strange you also mentioned Falling Into Infinity, because that is one of my favorite DT albums.
I, for one think he is much better than Geddy Lee, if he was mixed a little higher on studio albums I think more people would recognize what a brilliant player he is.
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Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 00:23
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I think he's perfect in the mix. It's somewhat comparable to Jethro Tull (volume) in the fact that he's a hidden bass. They get just loud enough for you to go "Is that the bassist?" and then lose track of them. Never easy to follow unless you know the parts yet loud enough to add a presence to the band that would be missed. ------------- 
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Posted By: Open-Mind
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 01:07
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In my opinion, John Myung bass playing is OK
------------- "I'm on a roll, I'm on a roll this time, I feel my luck could change.. " |
Posted By: shanocles
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 02:39
correction .... EXCELLENT POST AtLossForWords!!!! thanks for sharing your insight which is obviously well researched. ------------- if left is wrong i don't wanna be right... 
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WaywardSon wrote:Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 03:21
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Myung is a hell of a bass player but only dogs and wolfs can listen him clearly, too low for two legged beings.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: transend
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 03:24
| Great player, unfortunatley we barely hear him. I love DT but have ALWAYS thought they were the most terribly mixed band in existence. Most of the time it is ALL drums and guitar. Its sad coz their songs are so good! It seemed to start with 'Awake', when I first heard it in '94 I was SO angry, the guitar drowned all the synths and bass. It has never gotten much better. The live album from Budokan is the best mixed thing they have done since 'Images & words' and it is likely because Petrucci coiuld not ADD more guitars. I love his playing but he drowns everyone but Mike. Its a sad thing coz Myung is so talented, I feel alot of the time when I watch DVDs of them that I can see Myung doing amazing stuff on the bass neck but I CANNOT hear any of it!!! Its annoying! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 03:33
Ivan, you're unique..  Unfortunately, that's all too true... As a big bass fan (and there's even the danger that I might learn how to play one in the future...  ), I love to hear a really great bassist do his/her stuff - but, although I've heard people carry on about how great John M. is, I've never been able to hear him on record (I own 5 DT albums). The only exception might be "Learning to Live", in which the bass line is much more noticeable than elsewhere (but then, that is a Myung-penned track). Otherwise, he might just as well not be there at all, swamped as he is by Portnoy's noisy drums, Petrucci's over-the-top shredding, and even LaBrie's wail. Squire may not be as good as he is (something which I doubt... ), but at least he could be heard very distinctly - and he played in a five-piece with a top guitarist and a top keyboard player as well. |
Posted By: Under
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 04:50
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DT is a great band, but the backbone of the band (drumms and bass) will never be as good as the one from Yes. You can hear Portnoy, but no Myung.
That is why Myung will not be remembered as a great bass player.
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Posted By: Silhouette
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 06:05
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I think John Myung is a great bass player, and he's definitely too low in the mix. ------------- Silhouette http://www.last.fm/user/Zammiz/?chartstyle=Geldropdown-small - Profile @ Last.fm |
Posted By: fairyliar
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 06:13
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Just like Tomodachi said, there are two problems:
-first the mix is terrible and even with a good audio equipment and bass to the max, he is just heardable
-secondly, he often follows the guitar which is something I find horrible and stupid, bass makes the rythm and guitar the melody and everyone stays where his place is.
I must add that, as a bass player, I can't stand 6 or 7 strings melodic basses, it's just a crime!!!
4 strings are really enough to do the job!
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 09:13
I too find it very hard to pick his lines out. They certainly do
not stand out like Squire or Lee. However, it's fun as hell to
watch him live - I tell myself, "Boy, if that sounds as good as it
looks, it must be incredible...I wish I could hear it!" 
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 10:13
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Myung is a great bass player, easily in the same line as Claypool and Squire. But I agree he's too low in the mix on DT's albums, which is sad, because his bass playing is really great! ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 10:18
*Has a heart attack*  . Honestly I think Myung's tone is average at best. He's a great player, but you can't really hear him. I'd rather have the beautiful tones of Geddy and Chris and their melodic lines over Myung playing the guitar part or a 250 bbm solo anyday. His early work is awesome, but their later work where he drowns in the mix and both he and Jordan Rudess play the guitar part is awful. I miss the early days when everyone played a different part and worked together, not them all playing the same riff until a mindless synth lead or guitar solo comes in. Train of Thought was the worst in that respect, you couldn't tell guitar from keys! I miss the melodic chords and progressions of Kevin Moore. When he played a solo it was obviously keys, whereas I've heard my DT fan sister say during a Rudess solo, "this is guitar now". I just wish he would play more melodic things and focus a little less on that awful lead sound. Well, back to Myung. One of the main reasons I'm not a big fan of Metal bass players (excluding myung) is that they play the guitar parts and are low in the mix. You don't see tuba players playing the Violin part, now do you? Sure, it adds to the mass of the music, but the bass player has no room to express himself. Sure they get a 10 second intro or shred solo every album, but that's not enough in my opinion. Riffs and solos get you nowhere in my opinion. BTW- Nostalgic means a longing for something, or homesickness.... Not sure how that relates to bass tones. ------------- 
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 12:35
I must be the only person alive that has no problem hearing John Myung playing. OK he's harder to hear on Six Degrees and Octavarium but he's more audible than most bass players on every other DT album, whats wrong with you all, I only have cheap systems and I can hear every note on most albums.
P.S. to those that say he only follows the guitar lines, clearly you need to listen harder to the bass as he certanly doesnt. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Kleynan
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 12:37
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It's too low in the mix. He does some crazy sh*t on the Budokan DVD. ------------- 
You've just had a heavy session of electroshock therapy, and you're more relaxed than you've been in weeks. |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 12:53
Atlossforwords has a point, although he is not very...present in the mix, soa re msot of metal bassinst...which is a petty, cause with a huge talent like Myung is, its almoust a waste... Doesnt he like to have his bass a bit more present? Maybe he is a hell of a bassplayer, but not a good fighter when it comes to stand by what you want!
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 13:54
Squire and Myung aren't nearly as good as Claypool. They aren't even in the same class of bassists. -------------
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 14:03
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I can't hear too much of what he actually plays, it's just down there
somewhere. What I do hear, and what I've seen in videos qualifies him
to my personal top 10 or something of bassists. |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 18:46
Average at best? On Train of Thought and Octavarium, his tone can be considered average at best, but on Falling Into Infinity and Awake, his tone is the top in the genre. It's full of depth, attack, and definition. Beautiful tones of Geddy Lee and Chris Squire? Squire's tone is alright, but it's far too trebly. There's no depth into it, and it has an effect on Yes' composition. The bottom falls out of the band when Squire is playing in upper registers. Lee just has a bad tone. It like Squire's is much to trebly, but distorted too. Myung has a clear bass tone, undistorted, and defined. The bottom never falls out of Dream Theater song, and that's because of Myung's bass tone. He can play very high registers, but still have enough depth to his tone to have the tonic of the chord ring out. I would like you to explain to me how Myung's lines are not melodic. "Lifting Shadows Off a Dream", "Scarred", "Voices", "Learning to Live", "Take the Time", "One Last Time", "The Glass Prison", and "Blind Faith" are examples of metal's most melodic bass playing. If you studied Dream Theater's music, you'll find the bass, guitar, and keys differ very much. Especially on Scenes From a Memory and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Rudess has some of the most creative keyboard tones of any keyboardist in any genre. He's a definate breath of fresh air. I'd rather listen to a keyboardist using a great variety of tones than one which that brings out the same old analog lead all the time. Squire and Lee have tones that are very representative of the past, they give some character to the music, but I say awful becuase I'm not a fan of those tones. -------------
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 29 2006 at 03:36
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 29 2006 at 07:47
I know Portnoy follows Petrucci on stage, though I dont know wether its to so with the fact that he cant hear Myung (which must be by choice as most of them can adjust the volume of what there hearing through there ear pieces in concert). Its also just as likely that Myung chose to follow the drums, there's no law anywere saying that drums have to follow bass.
As for being a husky, I'm not that hairy!  I do however find it very easy to hear Myungs bass on all DT recordings except Octavarium (and occasionally on Six Degrees) but I find it harder to hear the bass in a lot of other prog metal bands (Pagans Mind comes to mind here).------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: August 29 2006 at 23:12
Dream Theater uses headphone sound monitor systems, and John Myung has no stage volume. Both Rudess and Myung play straight into the PA. and for the record I can hear his bass playing. -------------
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: August 29 2006 at 23:28
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my favorite DT member can never be heard, making me like Mike Portnoy related projects less ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 06:03
Well, thats two of us, I wonder if its got anything to do with the fact that were both six string bass players and DT fanboys.
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Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 11:00
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His bass is mixed just right... Wizzie hates it anyway. He thinks John Myung is a guy who works at our local chinese restaurant. ------------- 
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 11:05
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: mr_johnny_lee
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 15:57
| Yes, his bass playing is too low in the mix. You see his live performances and he's moving his fingers loads and yet he's gets drowned out by Petrucci and Rudess, it's a shame really cos he's an awesome bassist. |
Posted By: MajesterX
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 19:54
I just watched Score a couple days ago and I was amazed at the ability to hear Myung and his amazing tone. You are right, his FII and Awake/ I&W tone is very good. I'd love to hear all of your "findings" from studying Myung as you have said. -------------
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 21:37
I think some albums he's present, and on some of the later ones, he's not quite as well in the mix.....Octavarium he was fine though 
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Posted By: MattiR
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 06:29
| OK |