Long hill down after debut album
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27734
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Topic: Long hill down after debut album
Posted By: Under
Subject: Long hill down after debut album
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 06:36
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Which band peaked at its debut album, but thereafter went down?
It is not right to say they went far down, but Marillion's peak was with Script. Script was the Mount Everest. There have been some Mont Blancs....
Steven Hackett. He had a great debut, a very nice second album, a good third, an ok fourth..... etc. etc.
There must be more bands who lost the creativity after their debut album.
It would have been Pink Floyd's Debut album with Syd Barret (didn't he die recently?) if it wasn't for the fact that the others could even write better songs.
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Replies:
Posted By: Chipiron
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 07:22
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Mike Oldfiend managed to release several good albums, but IMO his peak was "Tubular Bells" and his latest works are much weaker.
I'm sure there are many other cases, but I can't remember now. ------------- [IMG]http://www.belderrain.es/GIFs/tora.gif"> |
Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 07:27
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I agree with Steve Hackett, he wasn't able to equal Voyage of the Acolyte but he did come close with Darktown. Same with Mike Oldfeild. I don't like Godspeed You Black Emperor have been able to equal F#A#. ------------- 
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Posted By: Under
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 07:31
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Yes, for the big public the peak of Mike Oldfield must be Tubular Bells.
If that is true for the fans..... I don't know.
I just discovered Mike Oldfield and I like it very much. But I must say Tubular Bells is great but starts to be a bit boring, while his second album Hergest Ridge and 3th Ommadown are really great, equal to Tubular Bells if not better.
I understand that more recent work is not all that.
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Posted By: pero
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 07:34
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Chipiron wrote:Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 07:35
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Misplaced Childhood and Clutching at Straws are both at least the equal of Script..., and IMO are better written and played than the debut. Similarly, Ommadawn and Incantations are both better albums than Tubular Bells.
In fact, most of the classic prog bands of the 70s had relatively weak debuts, and even where this wasn't the case they generally managed to equal or improve on their debut - for example King Crimson with LTIA. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 07:45
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Have to disagree on Hackett. Spectral Mornings, Darktown and To Watch the Storms are all superior to Voyage. King Crimson haven't made any album better than ITCOTCK, in my book. ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 07:55
| In my book Larks tongues is better and Red is equal |
Posted By: Under
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:02
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Speaking of people who left Genesis: What about Peter Gabriel?PG 1 was his peak. Maybe for some proghead PG 4 was his peak, but PG didn't reach a lot of his fans with that album. Of course anyone would say So was his peak and commercially they are right. But was this really his best (progressive) album.
Hmm, this is becoming very subjective.....
Small link in my brain:
Fish made a masterpiece with Virgil. Anything hereafter (and I have tried) was less.
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Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:04
I agree there. Larks' tongues is their best in my opinion. -------------
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Posted By: Dragon Phoenix
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:06
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I agee with Fish, I definitely do not agree with Peter Gabriel - he
made at least three albums (4, So, Up) that I rate higher than his
first.
------------- Blog this: http://artrock2006.blogspot.com |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:06
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I agree with you on Gabriel. His first album was more prog than other projects.
After 1 album his 3 was also OK.
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Posted By: Dragon Phoenix
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:10
pero, it looks like we just agreed to disagree. 
------------- Blog this: http://artrock2006.blogspot.com |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:11
Above mentioned albums were more commercial than first 3, but definitely inferior in any other way
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Posted By: Dragon Phoenix
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:13
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No.
------------- Blog this: http://artrock2006.blogspot.com |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:14
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Yes indeed
 . Well said |
Posted By: Chipiron
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:15
Agreed, although I prefer "Red" (slightly). KC is a band that's been very good through the years. I'm not very fond of "Discipline", "Beat" and "3oapp", but their latter albums are really good. IMO. ------------- [IMG]http://www.belderrain.es/GIFs/tora.gif"> |
Posted By: Under
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:23
I agree with Dragon Phoenix regarding Fish
I agree with Pero regarding Peter Gabriel
 Seems I am back at my own opinion.
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Posted By: unforgivable74
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:43
I know I'm gonna be so outspoken here but I have to disagree. For me, 'Brave' and 'Marbles' (full 2CD) are better than Script, not to mention 'Clutching At Straws'. But that said, 'Script' is a remarkable debut from my favourite band of all. ------------- Laughs as I clean my teeth, laughs as I rub at my eyes. |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 08:48
Who will now understand who agrees with who  . I give up
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Posted By: Under
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 09:32
| ^I agree. I give up as well. |
Posted By: Kleynan
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 09:42
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I agree about Hackett. I also think ELP went down-hill after their debut. It is IMO their best. ------------- 
You've just had a heavy session of electroshock therapy, and you're more relaxed than you've been in weeks. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 10:17
Yup, this is often true for prog groups who refine their complicated formula in further albums, because it is damn well almost imposiible to get down pat inb just one shot..
But in other rock styles, often the debut is theitr best work , because the most immediate and honest. Also where they have the most fresh ideas. For ex: Lynyrd Skynyrd, Van Halen etc..
I must say that by their fourth or fifth abums most 70's groups (non-prog) have said all they had to say. And usually went downhill after that.
This is however not so true with 60's bands that managed to survive a while >> Savoy Brown, Ten Years After. Their better efforts came much later in their career >> Raw Sienna or Lookin' In and Cricklewood Green or Space In Time
By the second album, most 80's and 90's groups had said everything.
Some bands like TFK never manage to say anything throughout their lengthy career filled of double albums
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 10:21
| Ambrosia's debut was their peak, and it still wasn't that good. Same with Asia. |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 10:21
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Asia ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Under
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 10:28
That is an interesting theory.
Band from the 60s: evergreen
Band from the 70s: 5th album is top
Band from the 80s: 2nd album is top
Non prog bands: 1st album is top
Band from 70s?
Yes - Close to the Edge
Genesis - Selling England by the Pound
VDGG - Godbluff
So far, you are right. Band from the 80s?
Dream Theater - Images and Words
IQ - The Wake
Right again
Non-prog albums?
Las Ketchup - The Ketchup song
Right!
Hmmm, not bad. I'm impressed. |
Posted By: Dennis
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 10:32
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Swedish band Paatos. First album was a gem and very exciting. Original guitarist leaves. Second album still good. Third album, dull, boring and more poppish. Too bad. They seemed to have so much potential and are now wasting their talent. Their excellent drummer went from sounding like a young Bill Bruford to now sounding like Ringo. Sorry Ringo, but you were never a Buddy Rich!
------------- "Day dawns dark, it now numbers infinity" |
Posted By: Ty1020
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 10:36
Just want to comment on that one, I actually think they got better with each album . They're all great, but F#A# is the only one that I don't consider to be a masterpiece.------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Ty1020/"> 
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Posted By: memowakeman
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 10:50
Paatos 2006 release is quite good ------------- Follow me on twitter @memowakeman |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 10:54
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 10:57
I almost fully agree with Dennis. Fiske (from Landberk) was THE man and leader HuxFlux Neterham's drumming was superb on the debut.
But Kallocain is just as boring as AKOSilence ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: captainbeyond
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 11:02
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Alas, I must point to my namesakes, Captain Beyond, though they are
only tangentially prog. Their first album was as good as any hard rock
album ever recorded, up there with In Rock, Master of Reality, Bad
Reputation, Zep II etc. Never came close to matching it. Must've
existed in the chemistry between the musicians that was only there at
that place and time. The band to keep an eye on right now, in this regard, is the Mars Volta. Staggering, jaw-dropping debut. Relatively weak and lazy follow-up. Waiting on the upcoming next album..... |
Posted By: Dennis
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 11:04
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I almost fully agree with Dennis. Fiske (from Landberk) was THE man and leader HuxFlux Neterham's drumming was superb on the debut.
But Kallocain is just as boring as AKOSilence Yeah Sean, isn't Fiske now in the psychedelic band Dungen? I love his inovative guitar style, put much more when he was doing prog. I have several early Pattos "live" bootlegs with him on it which are awesome and I definitly think the band has lowered its standards since he left. ------------- "Day dawns dark, it now numbers infinity" |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 11:18
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Ambrosia ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 13:15
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I like Spock's Beard's debut better then anything eles. Not to say they were terrible after that (although Day For Night wasn't that good) they never achived what they did on The Light. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 15:05
| you could say Pink Floyd, since they went down after the debut. but then they rose up again after atom heart mother and just kept getting better |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 15:24
As much as King Crimson is my favorite prog band, and the fisical manifestation of everything prog is, and all their albums are excellent...they could never top ITCOTCK...no one can!!!
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: jcleary
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 16:51
You're out of your mind! "Tarkus", "Trilogy", and "Brain Salad Surgery" are DROP DEAD BRILLIANT!!!!! |
Posted By: chessman
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 20:08
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I sort of agree about Script. But I do think other Marillion albums equal it, or maybe slightly surpass it. Clutching At Straws and Marbles come to mind. But it's right up there. One of the best prog debuts of all time.
As for Steve Hackett, I can't agree there. As good as Voyage Of The Acolyte is, I think there are others which nudge it down the ratings a tad. Namely To Watch The Storms and Guitar Noir. But it's always hard to judge with Hackett as his albums are so diverse.
His classical guitar albums are just as good, but different.
Incidentally, the classic example of a band going downhill after the debut, though not prog, must be Van Halen.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 04:23
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bump ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 04:29
Que? (Fawlty mansion)
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Posted By: KeyserSoze
Date Posted: August 31 2006 at 06:12
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Ok, I have two bands on my mind that made great debuts but they have never reached its quality later (even though their later albums aren't bad at all):
Phish - Junta and Enchant - A Blueprint Of The World ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/mhron/?chartstyle=artists" rel="nofollow"> 
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