Gun Haters’ Forum
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Topic: Gun Haters’ Forum
Posted By: Peter
Subject: Gun Haters’ Forum
Date Posted: December 10 2004 at 20:29
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Be my guest. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Replies:
Posted By: Arioch
Date Posted: December 10 2004 at 21:25
I hate guns! ------------- Knight of the Swords Lord of Entropy Duke of Chaos |
Posted By: Proghead
Date Posted: December 10 2004 at 22:54
| You son of a gun. |
Posted By: Glass-Prison
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 08:26
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I think it is in the best interest of the world if we ban guns and legalize pot. Imagine how peaceful eveything would be! |
Posted By: Arioch
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 09:37
Actually I have a friend who smokes pot everyday several times per day. He is really skinny and if it means having food in the cupboard or a few ounces of weed he'll choose the weed over sustenance. After knowing him for years I can safely say that there are addictive qualities to pot so let us put that into perspective before legalizing a potentially dangerous substance. I drink alcohol and that has all the same addictive properties so perhaps you're right. Maybe we should ban it all....cigerettes, pot, alcohol, guns, chocolate, freedom.... ------------- Knight of the Swords Lord of Entropy Duke of Chaos |
Glass-Prison wrote:
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 11:21
drugs and guns - now you're talking!!!!! 
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 14:06
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I could rabbit on for hours about my feelings about guns or more accurately the idiots who feel it is a right to own them. Americans, hmm,I still cant figure them out. This forum is the closest I get to "Americana" these days and the American members are for the most part warm, friendly and thoughtful. Heck, I used to believe that your average American Joe or Joanne was "thicker" than a whale sandwich, a sort of well-meaning half-wit. Ok so I acknowledge that "it aint so", until we come to the subject of guns and gun ownership. If I write here that Paris is the capital city of France or that day follows night, bear with me here,then no-one will dissent. If I write that gun ownership in the USA is the largest, per capita, in fact per anything you could mention,in the Western World and that death caused by guns is by far the highest in the USA than in any country in the Western World, and that there is a direct correlation between these facts, suddenly nearly all our American cousins find themselves unable to put two and two together and get 4.You have the worst gun-related crime rate because you have the most guns. I have sat before my computer in almost paralysed disbelief at the way ordinary, right-minded people not only tolerate but actually promote the ownership of guns as some sort of human rights issue.Then we have the incident at the rock concert,the shooting of innocent people and suddenly ever American to a man/woman is saying how awful it is. And it is. Yet these same people scream American Constitution every team some "nut job" wants to ban the ownership of guns. You should be out on the streets screaming for your rights to live without the shadow of the gunman hanging over you.Ban the ownership of guns for everybody. They wont go away overnight and quite a few hillbillies will get hurt refusing to hand their stash over, but what the hell. You have got to start somewhere. Why would you want to blindly defend a Constitution that was written 100's of years ago which, whilst for the most part is a great piece of work,was a product of its time and has "compromise" written all over it. You want the right to bear arms because of living conditions over 200 years ago? Whatever happened to progress,the development and sophistication of society? Like I said you're a great group of people. ------------- 
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Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 14:14
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i think it was me who got the american all riled up in
the Pantera shooting thread in main discussions and after a load of posts this is what i finally have to say there and here..... In reply to all the Americans who got quite rabidly upset by my post: To be honest, this was a needless act of provocation on my part. I knew it would get certain people exercised and that people's views on this are entrenched and reactionary - on both sides. It was a easy mark and I took it, and one I should probably have left alone. However, I firmly believe that the possession of firearms, hunting knives, crossbows, etc should be firmly regulated. Heavy regulation of possession does not curtail people’s right to hunt (though i also believe that in most cases that pursuit is wrong, as I believe all blood sports - of which Ireland is an unfortunate champion - are cruel and wrong). If you want to hunt and your country endorses it, then do so, intense regulation of access to firearms will not prevent you indulging in your pastime if you are a legitimate user of firearms for sporting means. It is the way it is in the bulk of Europe and sport shooting is in a healthy state judging by Olympic performance. I do believe that the NRA in the US is a reactionary organisation that seeks to preserve a status quo no longer relevant in more enlightened times. Its relentlessly negative attitude to progressive, meaningful gun control reinforces and exacerbates the problem US society has with guns. In short I believe its ultra-conservative stance encourages a 'over my dead body' attitude in which the possibility of armed resistance is positively relished. I agree, broadly, that people not guns kill people, but if you give people guns then the propensity for killing is vastly increased. it is basic common sense. While I did seek to provoke a response, my opinions on gun control are not an attack on 'the american way'. I like america and americans. I fundamentally disagree with certain aspects of policy and outlook with regard to foreign policy and US domestic lawmaking (The Patriot Act) and am dismayed by the increasingly inward-looking attitude of 'fortress' america. For a country founded on the principles of 'give me your poor, your huddled masses' etc, it is a sorry pass for such an initially radically liberal country to come to. James made some points about freedom from the yoke of oppressive regimes and the dangers of imperialism. There is a lesson of history there that appears lost to the current holders of the superpower title. It is a tale oft told throughout history and those who do not learn the lessons of hoistory are doomed to repeat them. The fall of countless empires throughout the ages has been predicated on expansion, complacency (inspired by riches and the monopolisation of power) and the eventual isolationism brought about by the threat and increasing dissafection of those whose futures are being determined by the vested interests of empire. it is a boom and bust cycle that a wise potentate would not ignore. Also James’ points about Ireland's bloody struggle for freedom in the War of Independence and the resultant Civil War are well made but choose to avoid a salient point. Once freedom was won and the power struggles of the various local factions were partially resolved, the right-thinking people of this island chose to abandon their weapons and attempt to return to a arms-free existence. We have an unarmed police force and owing to our recent (within the last 10 years) experience with internal strife we have a very prohibitive stance on the possession of firearms. It works. We have, outside of a smattering of gangland related shootings, a gun-free culture. There are few firearms related crimes here. We are far form perfect, indeed there are many aspects of life that frustrate me as greatly as anything i get riled about in other countries - and that includes afghanistan, france, britain, japan, angola anywhere where injustices or exclusions are perpetrated. But the statistics on gun control, still do not lie. America is a wonderful idea, but like all ideals it is imperfectly formed. Just because we Europeans (and many others) question the imperfections does not mean that we are hostile to the ideal. Indeed, true democracy is |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 14:20
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Just because we Europeans (and many others) Dont leave it there Mr Arcer....is what????????????
It's a good job you're not explaining the Meaning Of Life!
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Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 14:42
| oops sorry hang on |
Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 14:44
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is about discourse is it not?
that's something of a let down isn't it after the previous thousand or so words 
ah well they're only american they won't get past the first line of the first part of the post before they start frothing at the mouth
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 14:57
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Nicely balanced argument BTW. I only do stream-of-consciousness vitriol as you can see! -------------
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Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 15:02
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vitriol has its place. by and large invective seems to
be the stock in trade of US political discussion so maybe it's what gets a point across 
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 15:07
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If you can't get passionate about a bunch of berks defending their right to own a piece of machinery whose sole design objective is to kill other beings, what on earth can you get passionate about?
The Kyoto Treaty? -------------
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Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 15:09
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panic ye not - the chinese are coming to restore the
balance of (super)power Ah, the good old days - cold war, missile crises, evil empires, SALT, star wars, U2 spyplanes, happy times... |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 18:28
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I guess the fact that drugs kill more people in this country than guns means nothing to you at all. I hate guns. I don't want to be anywhere near one, I prefer never having to see one... and I could care less if they were banned. However, banning guns does not get rid of them, just like banning drugs hasn't seemed to decrease their availability here either. I think all of you have good intentions, but a non-realistic look at the situation. ------------- THIS IS ELP 
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 18:37
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 19:44
------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 19:53
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^ That's why everone else in the world believes you Americans are thick! Hey, and that's a fact!
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 19:54
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^ and I'm not saying you are thick, although sometimes evidence points otherwise, just that's what about 3 billion people all think.
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 19:59
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 20:04
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Right, oh I am just about oh no
And they give these people the vote oh help! NOW GET IN THE KITCHEN AND MAKE ME SOME PIE! -------------
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 20:07
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If only they had one of these:
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Posted By: Arioch
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 21:00
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Hey, at least if we're invaded they 'll have to contend with millions of nutty mountain militia citizens as well as our armed forces. The world hasn't experienced partisan activity until you invaded the US... I say this in jest of course......carry on the argument and please ignore me. ------------- Knight of the Swords Lord of Entropy Duke of Chaos |
Posted By: Quacky
Date Posted: December 11 2004 at 21:54
| The problem with that, Arioch, is the mountain militias may be the ones trying to overthrow your gov't. |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 01:08
Actually all the evidence I've seen says the opposite, but then I guess you read backwards to. And I'm sure I'm not the only one here who thinks that... just the only one who doesn't ignore you.... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 01:11
Actually I think its people like you that proves the need for guns. ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 06:45
DOH,I am not saying you are thick, although your reading is obviously patchy,I said your country's poulation is perceived as being thick-not quite the same thing. The greatest form of gun control is not to ban them is it? Like I said -------------
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 07:06
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Unfortunately I can't find the link, but a while ago I looked at a
table comparing deaths from shootings with legality of firearms, and several countries where firearms
are outlawed had higher death rates from shootings then the USA. I'm
not sure of the exact circumstances of the data, and for what it's
worth I'm on the anti-gun side, but it does demonstrate that the issue
isn't as simple as some people assume. |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 07:09
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No but banning guns would be an obvious start. I'm not saying that it will solve the problem overnight, but it is the obvious start. This is bizaare. -------------
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 07:20
See -this gun thing is ingrained in you. You want to shoot me for being anti-gun! Who are all these people who are too frightened/polite to say I'm thick?
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Posted By: Proghead
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 10:32
| A messy kitchen is a happy kitchen and this kitchen is delirious. |
Posted By: Quacky
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 14:20
| All I can say is that I don't like guns. Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 14:31
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Carrying a gun is legal, smoking pot is illegal. I'm glad I don't live in the USA. |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 14:34
Me too, apparently you deserve to be shot for speaking out against the gun-lovers! -------------
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Posted By: Arioch
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 14:44
Me too! I'm glad you don't live the USA either. ------------- Knight of the Swords Lord of Entropy Duke of Chaos |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 16:44
Me too... since its probably most of the pot smoking crowd doing the shooting anyway. ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 16:45
Why people would want to shoot you has nothing to do with your stance on gun control.... far from it!! ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 16:49
Who moi? Have you made me that pie yet?
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 19:49
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I think the point is about freedom. If you're against freedom, that's fine; history proves that most of the truly effective countries have extremely restrictive governments. I'll continue to hold out for more freedom, even for things I don't care for. I don't own a gun (I probably couldn't legally purchase one anyway, but I haven't tried) and I hate the thought of killing animals for fun. So did my father, an avid hunter in his youth, who taught me from a young age how to operate and have respect for guns. But when it comes down to having less freedom or more, it's a clear choice for me. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 19:54
But where do you draw the line on what you should have the freedom to own? I mean is it right to own guns because the law says you can and repealing the law would reduce yet another freedom? In that case why not repeal other laws that restrict freedom.In fact why dont we just let everyone do whatever they want and let anarchy prevail. Donald Trump could afford to buy a nuke if he wanted.Why prevent him? I mean it only carries a danger if he decides to use it.... -------------
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 20:19
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I guess you'll turn up here next James. Goodnight!
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: December 12 2004 at 20:20
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Because the 'gun control' vs. 'right to bear arms' debate is not about allowing more freedom, it's about taking it away. The 'safety of the public' argument has been used many times in history to restrict individual freedoms (as it is being used right now, in the Patriot Act farce). I'll throw back my usual response: why are we allowed to own and operate automobiles? They present a much bigger threat to the health and safety of the public. However, if we were to start a discussion on 'should Trump have the A-bomb', I'd definitely be in your corner. It's so much fun chasing RL around the forums. And we rarely get personal! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 00:27
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Thanks James.. you explain it so much better.. However, Reed, you look at the idea of banning guns as a deterrent to people getting killed, but thats just not the case. When really, we should be taking a better look at the mental states of those around us and taking our stands there. For instance, the people who worked with that guy who shot Dimebag last week, said he had been off his rocker for the last few months, talking to himself and acting very agitated.. and yet they did nothing to help him or contact anyone who could. It all reminds me of the PF song "On the Turning Away"... we've become so phobic on getting involved. ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 03:45
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...or even "Happiness is a Warm Gun" ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 03:54
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If only agreeing to differ would solve anything......but it doesnt.That is a cop out so all I can say is : you people are very dangerous! Must be the lack of sleep! Where do you live James? I'm trying to work out the time diff. I've been to bed and got up again whilst you lot have been performing keyboard-fellatio! -------------
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 04:24
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I just came back on myself after wasting valuable time sending out my resume. Really, one of these days I have to clear my schedule and give this forum the attention it deserves. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 05:04
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Posted By: sigod
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 07:26
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Why not make guns free but instead, charge $100,000 for each bullet? More useful suggestions from sigod as they occur ------------- I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision. - Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 13:43
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Actually, that cartoon reminds me of a picture I saw a few years ago of Bobby Sands, the IRA prisoner who was starving himself in prison at that time. It was a picture of his parents all lovey-dovey sitting on a bench with their arms around each other.. and a young Bobby of about 10 standing behind them with a rifle in his hands and a band on his left arm... And you call us dangerous! ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 13:58
On the turning away.... -------------
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 14:01
I am not contradicting you on the first part but to whom do we contact? Most authorities don't care and would do little to step in and do anything until someone has committed a crime or put someone else or themselves in danger. Someone who is a bit emotionally unstable cannot be legally arrested for anything or forced to seek medical attention. The more people exist automatically increases more unstable people. The pressures of our Society also trigger a lot of stress and emotional instability. Where do we draw the line? I agree that we do not need to unnecessarily give back rights so hard earned by the lives of many who went before us or because the rest of the world says it is the way to go. I have never owned a gun and probably never will but that does not mean I want my right or ability to own one taken away. The reason for my feeling that way is once the Constitution is tampered with that way the rest of the right listed will fall. Just watch! |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 14:28
You can contact the police, who may not be able to arrest them, but they do put them on a watch list. Hey, it couldn't hurt. Also you can contact any free counseling clinic, his family, his friends, a church, the veteran's association sometimes have councelors that help in these type situations... There is something you can do... you can even call the veterans assoc. for advice on what to do...
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 16:32
| It`s so much the guns, but some of the maniacs who get ther hands on them. Guns scare me. We are no longer living in the wild west. |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: December 13 2004 at 18:13
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But not planes with guns? -------------
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: December 14 2004 at 09:47
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You've never been to Brooklyn, have you?? ------------- THIS IS ELP
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