Mahavishnu Orchestra finally "clicked" on me
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Topic: Mahavishnu Orchestra finally "clicked" on me
Posted By: Zitro
Subject: Mahavishnu Orchestra finally "clicked" on me
Date Posted: June 01 2006 at 22:18
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I always thought as them being extremely complex and unmelodic with a style of King Crimson, but way less accessible. However, I enjoyed their album "Apocalypse" and Vision is a Naked Sword really interested me. Afterwards, I tried going back to the two albums I consider inaccessible (Inner Mounting Flame, Bird of Fire) and I'm starting to enjoy them all. The band members blow me away with their great musicianship, especially the drummer who can keep up with the crazy time signatures. Mc Laughlin is espectacular too. I still have a long way to go to absorb the sound, but hopefully the band may be one of my favourites after dozens of more listens and could even open me up to King Crimson as The flower Kings made me like Genesis more, and Spock's beard with Gentle Giant.
I don't know how I managed to be so patient. I did it with Yes' Relayer (I found the jazz-fusion inaccessible and ugly at first) and this band's music was even harder to get into. I hope it keeps growing on me.
So, this is a Mahavishnu Orchestra appreciation thread actually.
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Replies:
Posted By: BePinkTheater
Date Posted: June 01 2006 at 22:29
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Yes!
McLaughlin is a GOD.
I got Inner Mounting Flame last year from my music teacher. I was told to put it on, turn off the lights, lay down, and absorb! He let me borrow it for a week, and in that week I heard the album at least over 30 times.
I blew my mind. The music, musicianship, writing, everything! It just blew my mind. I was totally thrown back by the intesity.
I have only gotten into Birds of Fire since then, but I love that too. Great sh*t! ------------- I can strangle a canary in a tin can and it would be really original, but that wouldn't save it from sounding like utter sh*t. -Stone Beard |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 03:52
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Re: Mc Laughlin , try his Devotion allbum Just about the most sizzling hard-driving jazz rock >> and i should be writing jazz-ROCK, because it rocks!!!!!
I certainly love IMF and BOF, and the Lost Trident Seesion. Between Nothingness and Eternity is a lttle indulgent at times
However the Mk II line-up: From Apocalypse onwards does not do much for me. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 04:02
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If you liked those albums try also the best: "Inner mountain flame" and "Birds of fire".
Live from nothingness to eternity is exceptional work also.
"lost trident sessions" are worthy album too.
Solo McLaughlin albums: "Extrapolation" (a bit jazzy), My goals beyond (a bit acoustic) and especially "Electric guitarist" are excellent.
"Love devotion surrender" with Carlos Santana is one of the best fusion albums.
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Posted By: S Lang
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 05:59
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Mahavishnu have changed my music appreciation from Black Sabbath to John Coltrane - you get the drift...
McLaughlin in his great spiritual devotion has created something new and exciting, never heard before. The intensity is just awesome and most players are above first class.
Shakti followed, very different and extremely satisfying.
The man just had to invent genres, performed to ultimate heights, no doubt due to his tenure with Miles Davis, a great inspiration.
McLaughlin remains one of my most respected artists/composers to date and whilst he gave way to red wine and marriage, resulting in mediocre outputs for a while, he is back with his full might now. More mellow and thoughtful, yet so classy that words fail me to explain. Check out "After the rain" .
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Posted By: Aaron
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 06:55
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if you dont have Vision of the Emerald Beyond, get it quick, it's so f**king good
Aaron
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 06:56
| Between Nothingness... & Hendrix' Band Of Gypsys are 2 of my all-time favorite live records. I've always felt that there was a connection between them, I think it's the music's texture being similar...Nothingness contains some great bluesy/rock passages that could've easily come from Jimi... |
Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 09:16
| Great stuff the Mahavishnu Orchestra, Birds of Fire is one of my desert island discs. Although McLaughlin and Cobham are the players that may stand out on the first few listens, Jerry Goodman is great on violin - and I'm not a fan of that instrument - and of course there's Jan Hammer (I'm talking MO Mk I here). Glad you're enjoying them. |
Posted By: Zitro
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 10:03
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I have "Electric guitarist" and that side-project with Santana (an album my brother bought to do a project in a jazz class). I have to give them more listens. Vision of the Emerald Vision? Well, in a couple of months I could see if I can get it only if Bird of Fire/Inner Mounting Flame keep growing on me. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 02 2006 at 10:08
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Zitro wrote:Posted By: kenmeyerjr
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 19:16
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I agree, MO is one incredible band...and if you like that and don't have any of Miles Davis' 70's releases, you should get them (of course, McLaughlin is on many of them). You might also like the three releases from Go (in which the guitarist slot is filled by Al Dimeola, no slouch in the speed department himself). I only got into MO about 5 years ago and cannot believe it took me that long. ------------- If you like art of musicians, check my site (the music section) and tell me what you think! http://www.kenmeyerjr.com |
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 19:39
Yay Mahavishnu Orchestra!
Those guys rock really hard and manage to combine resonance and technical skill in an almost unheard of way. Every musician is a virtuoso supreme that know when to back down. There is also a spiritual element to there music that adds to the sound. I only have the the first two albums and the live albums and the really manage to impress me every time I listen. Everyone needs to listen to these guys. -------------  
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Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 19:52
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"Inner Mounting Flame" clicked with me right away.
------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 20:40
Sorry, I guess I'm not at your enlightened stage yet. 
Birds of Fire has impressive musicianship, but ultimatly leave no emotional impression on me save a bit of queasyness (sp?) and vertigo, not because of the fast speeds, but because of the melody lines can be so out of key and are seemingly random jazziness to my eas that I can't stand it. I'm not a big fusion fan.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 23:42
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I love most Jazz-Rock Fusion (of what I've heard, at least) And I think Mahavishnu's two first albums are excellent. The only problem is that they can get tiresome at times, IMO. ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: June 03 2006 at 23:46
Sometimes they scare me with what they can do on their instruments.  -------------
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Posted By: Articuno1
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 18:44
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I am very glad that you got the MO. They were one of my first prog bands; I was simply amazed by everything they did on Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of Fire. As a musician myself, I appreciated the technical skill of McLaughlin and Goodman especially (I play cello and guitar) and as a listener I was blown away by the sheer volume, so chaotic yet always directed. Get those two albums if you haven't already. ------------- Many Bothans died to bring you this information. |
Posted By: Kleynan
Date Posted: September 05 2006 at 19:48
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John McLaughlin is THE greatest guitar-player of all IMO, and he will be remembered for a long time. I've only got Birds of Fire of Mahavisnu, but I've got a lot of John's other material. ------------- 
You've just had a heavy session of electroshock therapy, and you're more relaxed than you've been in weeks. |
Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 01:23
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Think of them as just some guys jamming and dancing and interacting in a conversation. ------------- 
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 02:46
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The music of the Mahavishnu is fantastic - McClaughlin can certainly compose well, and the band get the groove on like troopers.
Pity about the rubbish guitar playing on "Inner Mounting Flame" though - almost all of it is really awful. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 03:13
What?
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 06 2006 at 09:11
It's dreadful - there's no getting away from it - it ruins the otherwise fabulous music. See my review  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 02:55
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You just pretend that you understand and like Mahavishnu orchestra but in a fact it's not your favorite music. First you have to listen to his 3 solo albums before Mahavishnu orchestra
Extrapolation is more jazz oriented without frantic solos and truly masterpiece.
My goals beyond and esspecially "Electric guitarist" are more like "Birds of fire"
In your other rewiews you give 3 Hawkwind albums 5*. For me Hawkwind is a joke in prog. I would give them 2* top.
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Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 03:00
The inexperienced listener would not find that, but it's true. If you listen closely to McLaughlin's playing on that album, you will find that he will stay noodling on the same 4 frets for a long time often, as if running out of ideas what to do next. There is one song (I believe it's Vital Transformation) that he does not do it in. He sounds hesitant when playing any solo on IMF, running riffs over and over again. Ofcourse, since Lotus has acoustic playing(he's better at that) that song is innocent from this.  EDIT: what's up with the messed up quoting? ------------- Epic. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 03:23
I don't pretend to understand Mahavishnu - it's a plain fact that I do understand their music from my own perspective. You're right that it's not my favourite music - but what has that got to do with anything? I don't pretend to like the music - it's really something, as my review discusses. However, as the previous poster has elucidated, the guitar playing is "Emporer's New Clothes", ie, it's not very good. I have no doubts in McClaughlin's pedigree and that he's a great writer, it's just that his playing on "Birds of Fire" is awful. Your opinions are your opinions and you're welcome to them, but Hawkwind aren't a joke and I provide reasoning behind my reviews - reasoning that is sadly lacking in your reply. Why would you only give those albums 2 stars when they're so obviously innovative and of interest to proggers? Awarding less than 3 is a joke - you clearly have an irrational dislike for Hawkwind! You need to listen to Hawkwind to get what they achieve - since you plainly don't. Read my reviews again as you listen to the albums, that might help. You don't have to agree with my reviews, but if you're going to make a point of disagreeing, please back up your opinions with reasoned discussion or I'm simply going to think you're a simple-minded time-waster. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 03:35
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Why do you review music you don't like? If you don't like McLaughlin guitar especially on "Birds of fire" than I don't intend to continue discussion with you about Mahavishnu orchestra.
Expressions like "simple minded" and "time waster" points out that you can't stand opinion different than yours and speaks about you and not me.
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 03:45
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I just knew this would turn into a heated debate... sorry Pero, but I have to agree with Certif1ed and JrKASperov for the most part, McLaughlin's playing on IMF is really sub-par, defnitely putting in the weakest performance of the five. Not that I'm an experienced listener or anything... |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 04:09
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I have no doubts in McClaughlin's pedigree and that he's a great writer, it's just that his playing on "Birds of Fire" is awful. Do you agree with this also?
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 04:22
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^ If Mahavishnu compositions are the work of his pen, then he truly is a great writer. But being a great writer doesn't equal being a great soloist. And I am talking about "The Inner Mounting Flame" here only, I haven't heard "Birds of Fire" in a long time. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 04:29
I review albums that are interesting - and the music itself on "Birds of Fire" is exceptionally interesting. However, no-one needs to justify why they review music they do or don't like 
You don't discuss things with people that hold opposing opinions to your own? OK, that's your call!
That simply is not true - I adore discussing things with people that hold different opinions to myself, as many here will testify... The point is that you just disagreed with some of my reviews of another band, calling the band in question a joke, without giving any kind of reason. That, to me, is indicative of you wanting to change the subject and hit back at me - which is time-wasting. The fact that you simply used the term "a joke" and used this hitting-back technique indicates a simple-minded approach to discussion. That's fair comment, and rational reasoning - isn't it? Anyway, I'm more interested to hear what makes the music "click" than continue a nonsensical exchange of "You're wrong" and "Oh no I'm not" - so what makes McClaughlin's playing so good - in your ears? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 10:15
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I think Pero actually understands Mahavishnu, and I think the rest of you really don't. There's levels of enjoying the music...the fact that you mentioned the solos are horrible is proof you don't get it at all.
Because while they are technically solos in a sense because they're unison...they're not a traditional guitar solo. They're him making rythmic music with the band and playing lead/follow. If his "Staying on the same 4 frets" is a problem; yell at Miles Davis who stays on the same note for measures at a time. You just don't know jazz well and that's okay...you can still enjoy MO but you don't enjoy it like someone like Pero or myself. -------------
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Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 15:12
There's a difference between staying on the same note because that's the way it's composed and staying on the 4 same notes because you're out of ideas.
------------- Epic. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 16:09
All that proves is that you like the music and appreciate it on whatever level you appreciate it at. To tell me I don't understand the music because I say that the solos are horrible is a bit of a cheap shot - or at best, a poor assumption. To say that I don't know jazz well as a result is simply ridiculous - using patently flawed logic in order to hit back at someone who holds a different opinion. Most of the soloing on "Birds of Fire" is not unison at all! What's it in unison with? The rhythms in the guitar solos do not seem particularly notable - especially in respect to the superb rhythms coming from the band - and do little to contribute to the rhythmic flow of the band. JM is obviously playing lead/follow - except that no-one else is following, they're accompanying on the whole. There's very little "conversation" between soloist and band, just noodle - improvised ideas played in a variety of modes and very quickly - seemingly in the hope that no-one will notice that they're not particularly musical. If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance...
Staying on 4 frets isn't an issue for me - great music can be forged from simple ideas; Beethoven's 5th, for example, relies on a simple 4-note phrase throughout the entire symphony - and repeated ideas can be used to fabulous effect - Hawkwind, for example. It's just that here, it comes across as limited rather than expressive. Of course, not everyone is going to enjoy the music the same way you do - taste is a large percentage of why anyone listens to a particular piece of music. However, don't use cheap put-downs as a way of trying to extinguish opposing opinions - it's just not elegant. What is it, in your opinion, that I do not understand or get? Try to answer without telling me again that I don't understand the music, unless you have some way of backing it up.
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 16:16
| Please, guys, would you mind trying to keep the discussion as civil as possible? I've already seen some words I don't like too much fly around... You are all entitled to your own opinions, but you can agree to disagree without resorting to name-calling or anything of the sort (the word "simple-minded" is not exactly a compliment in my book). |
Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 18:06
I don't understand what the argument is; I said basically we appreciate it at a different level than you then you repeated that in your first sentence. You saying the solos are horrible is a bit daring compared to saying you don't get the solos or enjoy them. I didn't mean to say unison, I completely mistyped. I should have said melodic or counter-melodic to actually get my point accross. As well the rhythms are countering the rest of the band but it is still what I said. The soloing should be viewed in an emotional veign not expressive. -------------
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Posted By: pero
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 03:07
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I was on 3 Mclaughlin concerts and listen and enjoy his music for 30 years. 1. Mahavishnu orchestra 1974, 2. Coryell-Mclaughlin-De-Lucia, 3. Shakti His is unique composer and one of the greatest fusion guitarist.
Mahavishnu orchestra live is experience that you will never get from bands that you like and I don't (Hawkwind, Marillion, Supertramp). The technical brilliance and understanding between band members is unique experience.
I'm not so good in English that I could get in detail explanation of the way he plays, but you have to enjoy music not analyze every ton like machine.
Birds of fire and Inner mountain flame is and will be one of the greatest fusion albums, whatever you say.
I'm a bit dissapointed that nobody of dozens rewiewers who give this albums 5* has nothing to contribute to this topic.
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 03:35
Well, you're arguing with my statements, and those of others, and we're replying. It's obvious that we appreciate the music at different levels - everyone does. I'm curious as to why anyone can think that the soloing is any good when it's plain as daylight to my ears that it's atrocious. I get the solo ideas, I just don't enjoy them because I think they're horrible for reasons that I've given in my review (as I pointed out) and in earlier posts, which is why I didn't bother repeating them - but I'll extrapolate a few more in my replies to your later comments. To remind you, the argument is that some of us think that the guitar playing is awful, and some think it's great - and so far, there's been very little from the "I think it's great" crew that supports their cause. Instead, there have been somewhat antagonistic comments that go some way to support the opposition!
But that's the problem - they're not really melodic, they're pure improvisation that have no melodic comment on the music as a whole - the ideas, if you can really call them that, are not in keeping with the surrounding material. On "Inner Mounting Flame", there are a few unison ideas that actually work very well - e.g. "Meeting of the Spirits" - but they are the exception rather than the rule. If they were counter-melodic, then they would need to follow some of the rules of the main melodies in order to maintain the wonderful coherence of the ensemble passages. The fact is that they are not even related to the musical ideas around them - it's noodle. This isn't an argument based on a loosely formed opinion: Some people think that music doesn't (or shouldn't) have rules, but they're wrong - it very much does. It's fine to produce ground breaking and rule-breaking music, but the ground and rules set up by the music are completely ignored by JMs solos - like some kid in a garage session playing for the first time and not knowing what he's doing. I know that's a kinda fashion thing - but it plainly doesn't work as coherent music in this case. Like I said, the compositions are great, it's just the lead guitar that's awful.
Yes, that's what you said, but I disagree - the rhythms are not even complementary to the rest of the material, they're just egotistical improvisations that ignore all of the rhythmic structures and just go off on one. If that's what you like, then that's your taste - but any kid with a guitar could do that.
And the difference between expressive and emotional is? I understand - and love - expressive and emotional music. Andy Latimer is one of my favourite guitarists because he can play a single note and almost bring you to tears with the intensity of the emotion. But waffly noodle all over a lovely laid-back number like "A Lotus on Irish Streams" is just sacrilege. It expresses nothing but "listen to how fast I can play all over this lovely chiled-out piece." And that's just wrong. ...just noticed that somehow "Inner Mounting Flame" became "Birds of Fire" in an earlier post - I must've mis-typed and got the name stuck somehow... Just so's we're talking about the same album... 
I haven't reviewed "Birds of Fire" yet, but it's just moved up my list
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 04:16
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This just makes me wanna listen to Like Children next chance I get!
------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 10:51
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Well I gave Birds of Fire 5 stars and Inner Mounting Flame gets 4.
I'm not a guitarist but picking up on an earlier point, some of the playing on Inner Mounting Flame is to my ears not quite as cohesive as on Birds of Fire. I get the impression Inner Mounting Flame was less rehearsed (not that that's a bad thing), and had more improvisation...there is less discipline and structure to it than Birds of Fire. Anyhow I like them both!!
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Posted By: Rando
Date Posted: September 10 2006 at 18:25
Interesting you consider their two best albums ( The Inner Mounting Flame & Birds Of Fire) as inaccessible. Actually I've always thought of KC's Starless & Bible Black or Lark's Tongue as more inaccessible.
John McLaughlin's style & technique of playing always transcended familiar styles of jazz, blues, rock, and yes, probably prog. Probably inspired by his own spiritual and philosophical beliefs.
And with a band that included Jan Hammer and Billy Cobham, is quite an ensemble of talent and creativity.
You might also want to check out "LOVE, DEVOTION & SURRENDER" (1973) JOHN McLAUGHLIN & CARLOS SANTANA.
Yes, I agree, APOCALYPSE is a beautiful album...
 ------------- - Music is Life, that's why our hearts have beats - |