Discipline/Matthew Parmenter
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Topic: Discipline/Matthew Parmenter
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Subject: Discipline/Matthew Parmenter
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 15:06
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With a recent debate over which category of prog Discipline and Matthew Parmenter fit into, I thought I'd make a poll. Your thoughts over your choice are much appreciated. Thank you. -------------   
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Replies:
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 16:11
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I only listened to the sample a few times after reading that thread. I'd think Art rock. Only the guitars feel slightly neo progressive especially at the end. The vocals are nothing like Marilion, Iq or Pallas though, more dark. I like them btw. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 16:54
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I happen to agree. I've yet to hear the debut album however. I believe it has a similar sound though. The influences are more VdGG and Genesis if anything. The sax playing maybe isn't the best in the world, but it doesn't make it a neo-prog band. Art Rock works for me (even though I don't personally like that term for bands like VdGG, King Crimson and Gentle Giant). -------------
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 23:50
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Bump!
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Posted By: The Ryan
Date Posted: May 28 2006 at 00:19
| I just heard Matthew Parmenter's Discipline for the first time today. I call it art rock, certainly not neo. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: May 28 2006 at 02:08
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I haven't heard Parmenter's solo albums so i can't comment on those, but Discipline is certainly a Symphonic band. Art rock should not be a catch all category (like it apparently is turning into). ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 28 2006 at 03:10
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I agree with that Hattie, Art Rock shouldn't be a dumping ground, but as it stands, with the current definition, it's the best place for them.
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Posted By: Ridge
Date Posted: May 28 2006 at 11:38
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Unfolded Like Staircase is symphonic all the way, an absolute masterpiece of 90´s prog. Their debut Push & Profit is slightly neo and has it´s moments, The Nursery Years is a great tune. Parmenters´s solo Astray could be called Art Rock it is very good but I would have loved to hear what the rest of the band could have done with the material. Does anyone know if the band is still together? ------------- Discipline is never an end in it self, only a means to an end. |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: May 28 2006 at 12:45
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I honestly think it's Symphonic, and one of the best one in the genre.
Yes, of all time. It's an odd blip, because P&P was just awful and
Parmenter's solo work is boring and featureless. Right place, right
time, I guess. I was lucky enough to get to see them live (and one day, I may tell the story of just how lucky), and it's still one of my best concert memories. -------------  
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 28 2006 at 13:09
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The only problem with ULS is the production, there is just no life in it. Nothing against the excellent music, I love the music, but it feels flat to the ears. I'd still give it a 5 (rounded up from 4.5). A re-master would be much appreciated too! It seems it isn't neo-prog, as I suspected. But I cannot see it moving anytime soon. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 02:55
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Honestly neither Symphonic team or me believe it's Symphonic or Art Rock, talked with the the leader of the Neo Prog team and he agreed with us in the name of his team.
In any case, we will discuss this issue again with Neo Prog Team, but not in the next days, this is a taken decision that can be changed, but in our case we have a lot of work to do adding 21 bands (Making a bio and creating discography) of 21 supposedly symphonic bands, from which only around the 20% or 30% at the most are really Symphonic, after that we have to advance checking one by one all the 497 Symphonic bands (We're around 120 by this moment) and only after we end this work we can go back to check the already changed bands.
I'm sure that Neo Prog Team is in the same situation, so I will please ask a bit of patience, because there is a lot of work to do and only a handful of us to do it.
Thanks
Iván
BTW: No genre that joins the most complex and hard to define bands like King Crimson, Gentle Giant or VDGG can be called a dumping ground, by the contrary very soon Art Rock will possibly be the most challenging sub-genre. ------------- 
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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 04:50
Thank you Ivan for clearing up the situation I've noticed that DISCIPLINE's removement to Neo category has provoked much more worries than GG and KC's one to Art Rock!!! 
BTW,DISCIPLINE is symphonic proggressive rock 
Wow ,what a support to Matthew!!!
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Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 08:31
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How are Discipline not "Art Rock" by the definition you give, Iván? I'd prefer it (along with GG, VdGG and KC) in Symphonic Progressive, but I've now come to accept the "new definitions" for both Symphonic Prog and Art Rock. Therefore, I conclude, Art Rock is the best place for them, if we use the new definitions. Using the old definitions, they're Symphonic Prog. In neither case are they Neo-prog. Also, Cygnus-X2 (Robert) has said he made a typographical error at the time of the discussions, hence why they are now under Neo-prog. But this matter is for special collaborators to discuss. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 13:56
Lets see what other sites think of them:
Isn't this a descripition of a Neo Prog band?
Also Progressor describes them as the limit between Symphonic and Neo Prog, they mention Art Rock also, but Pregressor has the peculiarity of considering most sub genres except Prog Metal and Fusion as Art Rock.
Even before we read this sites our team had reached the conclusion that they were a Neo Prog band, maybe we're wrong, maybe all his sites are wrong but at least we have enough arguments to consider the posibility of Discipline being a Neo Prog band.
I found that many people are worried when their favorite band is not considered Symphonic, some of the see Neo Prog as an stigma instead of another valuable sub-genre.
In the lapse of this weeks I saw Folk, Prog Metal, Art Rock and even New Age bands included in Symphonic just because some people see this sub-genre as the most important one. Nothing can be more wrong, every genre has it's strong and weak points and each one is as valuable as any other.
Well, I assume the responsability in the name of my team any mine, we didn't made a mistake, we listened the band, discussed the options and reached the conclusion that Discipline is a Neo Prog band, that's the reason why I sent a PM to Cygnus X-2 (Robert) and asked him if he considered this good USA band appropriate for the genre he's working on.
He accepted them and we made the change of label.
Yesterday night we exchanged PM's again after he mentioned this and another poll, and we decided to discuss this band's destiny in a short future, being that now there's too much work pending to open an already closed discussion.
Already added this band to a list of conflictive bands that our team will check again after cleaning our sub-genre.
Again, thanks for your patience.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 14:22
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Sorry, I didn't completed my last post.
Geck0 wrote:
King Crimson Symphonic Prog????? Please Geck0 they released only one 80% Symphonic Prog album at their debut (21st Century is not a Symphonic song) and a second semi Symphonic album, the rest of their 30 years career is as far as they can be to Symphonic.
They've been closer to Fusin, Prog Metal and ene Avant Garde than to Symphonic. Can you find any Symphonic element in Thrak, Bboom, Larks Tongues in Aspic, Red or even Three of a perfect Pair
What valid reason you have to consider them Symphonic except that believing any good band should be ibn Symphonic. Sorry, but this is absurd, King Crimson is anything but Symphonic, the same goes for VDGG.
About Gentle Giant, they have Symphonic elements, that's true, but they also have Medieval Folk Avant Garde and Fusionesque elements as strong as the Symphonic bands.
One Collaborator started a thread about Gentle Giant in this same section and 80% of the voters (Believe it's 48 to 11 in this moment) decided they were anything but Symphonic.
Do you know this band was discussed in the Collaborators section? The main problem is that Prog Folk team claimed GG for their genre, and I honestly believe that a band that sings in disonant Medieval style, dress as Medieval trubadoures in their concerts and use a narrative almost spoken style are much closer to Folk than to Symphonic.
But at the end it was clear that Folk Prog was neither wide enough to describe them and that Art Rock is going to be the place for bands almost impossible to classify as the three mentioned ones until a better genre was created or the new meaning of Art Rock accepted, and I agree with that.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 14:27
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"In the Neo-Progressive vein" doesn't mean they're neo-progressive, it just means they have similarities to that genre. "Halfway between classic and neo manifestations of symphonic" again doesn't mean they're neo-progressive, only that they contain elements of symphonic and neo-progressive. They're a difficult band to categorise, hence the Art Rock category would fit them in this case (using the new classifications you've mentioned before). "The music has symphonic tendencies with a very modern sound. The music is complex yet melodic first. Vocalist Matthew Parmenter adds an intensity that gives the music an aggressive edge." This describes a mix of genres, not just neo-progressive. I don't find neo-progressive prog that complex, from what I have heard. I've also not heard so much of an aggressive edge, except maybe with Marillion (I'm not familiar with that many neo-progressive bands, but from what I've heard, none have sounded that agressive to me). Only two people have voted for them being neo-progressive on this poll and I am sure they are more familiar with the neo-progressive genre than I am. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 18:01
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I must be honest Geck0, the responsability of my team is toi clean Symphonic, in other words decide which bands are or are not Symphonic and keep the sub-genre clean.
If we sticked to that it would be much easier work for us, because in most of the cases (I would say 90%) the members after thinking realize that the bands we believe are not Symphonic, agree with us.
The problem coes when we recomend to what sub-genre a band must go, you have seen the Gentle Giant Poll, 80% of the people voting (We're talking about almost 60 voters not 15 as in this case) agreed they were not Symphonic.
But it would be irresponsible from our part to leave a band floating in some sort of Prog limbo, we ask the leaders of other teams if they agree with our opinion and akllready Neo Prog, Fusion, Folk Prog and Kraut have accepted bands that were wrongly ascribed to Symphonic.
In this case we asked the Neo Prog leader, he agreed and we made the change.
2 out of the 3 sites i mentioned describe Discipline as Neo Prog:
GEPR said:
What more do you want, that they swear over the Bible that they are 100% Neo Prog? For God's sake they are comparing Discipline with IQ and Hogarth Marillion, What more Neo Prog do you want????
Mandmmusic.com wrote:
Please, this a text book description of Neo Prog
Progressor wrote:
Progressor doesn't say Discipline is so complex they can't be defined or that they defy the sub-genre classification, they just say Discipline is in the borderline that divides Suymphonic and Neo, they can't be anything elkse, Symphonic - Neo Preog limits are not clear for anybody, but they say that in desinitive way they are one of both.
But all this opinions mean a little, I need to check other data:
But over all this I value the opinion of my team that in this case is divided in two:
I value Neo Prog team's opinion about Neo Prog more that our own, but if they say it was a mistake (Robert didn't said that yesterday to me by PM, so I have to listen him), well we have to work it again very soon. But, even when slight I listen some VDGG and King Crimson sound in Discipline so I wouldn't feel uncomfortable if they are moved to Art Rock, but now ths is out of my hand because the band isn't Symphonic (that I'm 100% sure) any more and I have no right to move them.
But I'm sure that Robert and I will talk about Discipline again and reach a mutual agreement even when in this moment his opinion is more relevant than mine.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 21:36
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I agree that with the current definition of Symphonic Progressive that this site uses, would mean Discipline wouldn't fit here, but they have strong influences from VdGG and Genesis I believe (plus other bands I'm probably unaware of), but they also have a unique sound that doesn't fit the neo-progressive mold. Hence why I'd say Art Rock was the best place for them. But if prog bands from the '80s onwards are influenced by symphonic bands, such as Yes and Genesis and play in the neo-prog vein, then they are most likely neo-prog. But a band that have other influences, that are not from the symphonic progressive genre (such as VdGG in this case), may not necessarily be neo. The thing is, Marillion are also influenced by VdGG, who aren't symphonic... yet they're neo-progressive. Do you see my problem? I'm not deliberately causing problems, I'm just trying to help somewhat and offer suggestions. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 22:32
I understand you Geck0, the first Neo Prog song I heard was Marillion's Script from a Jester's Tear back in 198something
 and honestly I wasn't able to understand why people was starting to talk about this band as icons of Neo ¨Prog and about past glory of Symphonic if I wasn't able to find a significative difference.Of course that after listening more Neo Prog it was much easier to get the main differences, but the line that divides both genres is so thin that it's almost impossible to find in some cases.
Iván -------------
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