Unusual Scales. Help
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Printed Date: November 25 2024 at 20:06
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Topic: Unusual Scales. Help
Posted By: Asyte2c00
Subject: Unusual Scales. Help
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 23:45
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This might seem ignorant and naive, but i am going to ask anyway.
Ive been playing guitar for a while and am pretty good at it, however, i would like to elevate my playing by learning some new, fresh scales.
I want to be able to create diferent vibes like a Far East sound or a Arabian sound. For instance, I recently listened to Spectral Mornings Steve Hackett and on one song, I believe, "The flow of Tachai blossoms" he captures the asian vibe perfectly, and yes I know he used a koto, or some asian intrument to get that sound, but can you get that sound on guitar.
Any Suggestions?
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Replies:
Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 05:13
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This may help - tons of different scales including Eastern/Arabian/asian http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=2&scch=C&scchnam=Arabian+%28a%29&get2=Get - http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=2&scch=C&scchnam=Arabian+%28a%29&get2=Get ------------- 
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Posted By: krusty
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 06:36
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I think the OZRIC TENTACLES must use these scales quite often as well. ------------- http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentChapterView.asp?chapter=309" rel="nofollow - Humanism |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 22:06
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Got to: http://www.wholenote.com/default.asp?iTarget=http%3A//www.wholenote.com/basics/scales.asp - http://www.wholenote.com/default.asp?iTarget=http%3A//www.wholenote.com/basics/scales.asp
Explore that site for awhile.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: BePinkTheater
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 17:09
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Nice site! ^ ------------- I can strangle a canary in a tin can and it would be really original, but that wouldn't save it from sounding like utter sh*t. -Stone Beard |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 28 2006 at 16:17
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Interesting sites - they look useful for learning scales, but I take my usual issue with the use (or abuse) of the word "tone".
For example, the "Spanish 8-tone" scale does not have 8 tones in it - it has 8 notes, so should be called "Spanish 8-note" scale. So there  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 28 2006 at 16:30
is it really "note"? I mean, it's also "semi-tone", isn't it? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Certif1ed wrote:Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 17:05
But there aren't 8 semi-tones in the scale are there? The correct word is clearly note - a scale has notes in it, which can be tones or semitones. A tone is either a measurement of pitch between adjacent notes or it is the name given to the sound produced by an instrument at a given pitch with a specific timbre - the quality of the note, if you like. It is not the same thing as the note itself, which is what some misguided schools teach. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 17:26
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I guess that another wikipedia page is due for correction then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone  BTW: I think that the meaning of the word "note" should be more rhythmic than pitch. In Germany we also use the word "Ton" for pitch related things and the word "Note" for rhythm related things. your "crotchets" are called "Viertelnoten" (1/4 notes), "quavers "are called "Achtelnoten" (1/8 notes), a "breve" is called a "Ganze Note" (whole note). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 17:39
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That latter explains a lot about some of our past exchanges... I'll bear that in mind!
But I don't see what's wrong with that particular part of that Wikipedia page. It uses the terms tone and semitone correctly and even makes a differentiation between them and notes. Maybe it's because it's late at night - what do you see as the error(s)? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 29 2006 at 18:55
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^ I don't see an error - didn't you say that semitone is wrong and should be called seminote instead? After all, a scale is nothing else than a description of which pitch intervals to use. A scale does not imply any rhythmic information ... there are no notes involved. Notes are a part of notation. But the whole discussion is not that important to me ... note, tone, call it what you will. BTW: Of course the different elements of a scale aren't "tones" ... "tone" and "semitone" are intervals. Maybe with this distinction we can reach an agreement. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 30 2006 at 02:39
No - I said no such thing. Please read what I write before replying, Mike, and you'll save a lot of time, misunderstanding and forum space. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 30 2006 at 03:41
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"For example, the "Spanish 8-tone" scale does not have 8 tones in it -
it has 8 notes, so should be called "Spanish 8-note" scale." Please explain to me how I could not deduce from that statement that you think that when talking about scales one should use the word "note" instead of "tone". ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 30 2006 at 04:21
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Seems clear enough to me - what's so difficult?
Let's ask a simple question to illustrate: Are there 8 tones in the scale? Answer: No there are not. Some intervals are semitones. Therefore there are 8 notes, not tones in the scale, since intervals between notes may be either tones or semitones. I'm very curious as to how you can deduce that the sentence reads "semitone is wrong and should be called seminote instead" - as you put it. I said, as you quoted: "For example, the "Spanish 8-tone" scale does not have 8 tones in it - it has 8 notes, so should be called "Spanish 8-note" scale." I just don't see how you misunderstood that - except, maybe, with your German use of "Ton" to mean note. In English, Tone is a property of Note (or notes). Note is a symbolic concept while tone (and by obvious implication, semitone) is a more specific entity. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 30 2006 at 04:31
/editing to see if I can work out what's confusing you here...
Emphatically not.
All true so far...
Yes there are - they're the funny blobby things on the page.
Er... Ah! Here's your problem! Notes are the most fundamental part of notation. You practically contradict yourself here - and this is why it is a really good thing to make the distinction between notes and tones - it's quite important - in fact, I would say crucial to understanding if you're even slightly serious about writing music or playing it from scores. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 30 2006 at 04:37
I *never* said that. The German word "Ton" means "tone", the word "Note" means "note". Please read my posts as carefully as you want me to read your posts. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 30 2006 at 04:44
Mark, it's perfectly simple:
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 30 2006 at 08:42
Mike, you're confusing matters - please allow me to clarify. Here are the basics: A scale is made up of notes - it has everything to do with notes. Without notes, there is no scale. Without notes, there is no music. Notes are like letters in words. Notation uses symbols called "notes" to convey the notes that are played to form the scale. The term "note" also means a musical sound at a pitch - but parameters such as duration, timbre and so on are not defined. Once the note is performed, the note acquires these attributes - and hence a tone - and I think this is where you're getting confused, because the term "note" doesn't have one single meaning. A scale, in Western notation, consists of steps which may be semitones, tones or multiples of these. The semitone is traditionally the smallest step between notes in Western music - but not in many Eastern musical philosophies, and so Western music has come to adopt fractions of tones as steps in its scales too in cases where the instrument can handle it (or at least, some composers of Western Music have used fractions of tones in their compositions). You can say a scale has steps - but so does my landing! Each step is a note, and each note bears a relation to both its predecessor and its successor by a tone or fraction or multiple thereof. This step is also known as an interval - but in the context of a scale, we tend to use the "tone" teminology instead of minor second, major second and so on. It's a convention. ------------------------------------------------------ Put very simply, a scale is made up of notes that are semitones, tones or possibly greater intervals apart. If the intervals are consistently greater than a tone and a half, we typically refer to the result as an arpeggio, or broken chord. Typically, a scale will begin on a named note and end on a note an octave higher. Your last point completely contradicts your second point - so it is obvious to me that you don't really understand scales. I hope the above has clarified this for you. And as for your response about me reading your posts carefully, that nearly made me laugh - it was supposed to be funny, right? Could you also explain how the phrase "An 8 tone scale should properly be called an 8 note scale" can be interpreted as "semitones should be called seminotes"? That is truly baffling. Thanks. I also think that such a rudimentary discussion should occur elsewhere, as the original discussion was about advanced scales - not the very basics. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 30 2006 at 09:06
I agree with that - and it's not put "simply" but "clearly".  Let's leave it at that - I understand what you said about the different meanings of "note", and I also agree with that.Getting back to the "unusual" scales ... it should be pointed out that even the most usual unusual scale , harmonic minor, involves a minor third, which is not a multiple of a tone or semitone (rather: the sum of those two).  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 30 2006 at 14:47
Indeed - when describing a scale, we call it "a tone and a half" .
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 31 2006 at 13:21
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Eastern Sounding music should be played on Sitar, Shamissen, Koto or something other wierd.
i have thease sounds on my synth.
not much help, but whatever
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 31 2006 at 13:55
Traditionally speaking - yes. From a progressive standpoint - no, not at all. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Badabec
Date Posted: June 14 2006 at 12:19
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Perhaps Mr Hacket used a guitar-syntheziser to get a koto-sound... This suggested itself, in my opinion... But I may be wrong... |
Posted By: W.Chuck
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 13:40
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G-Harmonic Minor gives you some egyptian/arabian sound ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 15 2006 at 14:18
Only G-Harmonic Minor? BTW: Try playing the B-Harmonic Minor Scale with a E-minor chord ... even more Egyptian! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: W.Chuck
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 10:38
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Every of the harmonic monor scales has an egyptian influence but the strongest I found was G, although I have to admit that I didn't really deal with every. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 11:02
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^ What do you mean by "G-harmonic minor"? I think that you're not expressing it properly for us to understand. To me, A scale sounds the same whatever key you play it in ...
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: W.Chuck
Date Posted: June 16 2006 at 14:15
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lol... Well it's quite similar, but there is still a small difference for me, so that I don't want all of them to be put into one big sad pot. but okay, maybe the rate of EGYPTIANISM was a bit exaggerated -------------
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