Eurovision
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Topic: Eurovision
Posted By: Tony Fisher
Subject: Eurovision
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 13:17
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Will Lordi's win on Eurovision do some good for prog as a spin off? Although they're more plain stadium hard rock than anything, will this encourage some to look beyond the rap/boy band rubbish to some real music with real people playing real instruments? After all, Finland's viewers wanted to enter Nightwish the previous year but the powers that be said they weren't what Europe wanted to hear. I disagree. I suspect that Iceland would do well with Sigur Ros too, who are immensely popular in the UK. Eurovision is a bit of a joke with the political voting, but a prog band on there could restore some credibility and give the genre some valuable exposure! |
Replies:
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 13:24
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Why would any self-respecting Prog band want to subject themselves to the celebration of the lowest common denominator that is Eurovision?
Imagine Sigur Ros getting beaten by some half-baked mutants in fancy dress for next to last place... The dreaded "nil points" 
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 13:27
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Having said that and hijacking Tony Fisher's thread,which I nearly moved BTW (but to where??)
Which European Prog (or prog-related)band would have the most chance of appealing to the widest proportion of Eurovision viewers? A breakthrough band so to speak.... |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 13:47
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Actually, I don't think the voting is political per se, I think it's
based on cultural similarities. The musical traditions of the Balkans
are different from those of Northern Europe, and their respective
populations are going to respond to different things. Also, an artist
like Sweden's Carola isn't really known outside Scandinavia so that's
the only place where you can factor in her star power (which - for
reasons that completely elude me - is considerable). It's not because most Norwegian viewers consciously go "Oh, a Swedish song - we must vote for that!", but that they may already be familiar with the artist performing and have a natural affinity for the style of song performed. Replace Norway/Sweden with Croatia/Albania or any other countries with some shared cultural background. Also, there's nothing in Lordi that's more "real" than lost of other Eurovision songs. Many are performed by the artists (one was, after all, totally acapella), and quite a few written or co-written by the performer. What Lordi's victory proved was only that a Metal song of the type Lordi performed really isn't that far off from the radio-friendly Pop that most Metal fans abhor. And this is borne out by a growing Metal presence in each respective country's sub-contest (and remember, Norway did really well with Wig-wam last year). The soundscape is quite different, but the conventions are the same; the structures, the rhythms, the melodies and chord progressions run very close to what is now the standard, almost immutable template for How a Song Should Be. One that's used by Westlife and Bruce Springsteen, by Lordi and Carola, by The White Stripes and The Sugababes. The differences are minor and usually cosmetic. A much more likely scenario for Prog benefitting and gaining listeners through Eurovision is the heavy Balkan influence of the last few years. Balkan music generally does not shy away from odd meters and chord progressions that sound positively weird to the Western European ear. Macedonia's entry Life from two years ago was a minor key tune in 7/8 with some intricate backing vocals and a nice Eastern-style string arrangement. As I recall, it placed quite high, probably kept from the win by Western Europe ignoring it completely, strange as it was to them. Maybe as people hear more things like that, they'll become less sensitive to "odd" details in music, and so may expand their horizons a bit. At least, so one can hope. But Lordi? Naw... -------------  
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Posted By: OT Räihälä
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 14:24
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Wise words from John (Teaflax)... The only thing I would like to
emphasize is that Norway's Eurovision contestant last year (someone
called Wig-wam) must not be mistaken as Wigwam! One of the finest bands to ever come out of the Fenno-Scandinavian prog scene. http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=657 - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=657 ------------- http://soundcloud.com/osmotapioraihala/sets" rel="nofollow - Composer - Click to listen to my works! |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 14:39
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Sorry - my bad. I'll fix it. -------------
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Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 14:51
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I'm just not convinced that it was the song wot won it.
If you listened to the song alone, with no knowledge of how they looked, would you really pick it as a winner, even amongst such dross as the competition this year?
Don't get me wrong - I'm glad Lordi won - they were a pseudosatanic breath of fresh air - but 90% due I think to their image, rather than the music. Thus, I can't see any knock on effect on the quality (sic) of Eurovision. It will always be a mixture of the naff, the very naff, the jawdroppingly indescribable, and the very occasional, often unintentional gem.
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Posted By: Walri
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 15:07
| It deeply saddens me that Lordi would be chosen over, say, Wintersun, and many other incredible bands (progressive or not) that are in Finland. Then again, it's not that much of a surprise. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 15:29
I suspect Nightwish would have done okay but like you say Tony, I can't imagine any prog band wanting to touch Eurovision with the proverbial barge pole. |
Tony R wrote:Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 15:36
Rick Wakeman would do it and ELP probably......
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 16:00
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I thought it was a dire song.There were actually 3 songs I liked! (for the record Norway,Turkey and Croatia).
Norway had the best presentation by far
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 17:11
| ^ Hmm, what makes you say that Richard? |
Posted By: Tasartir
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 17:36
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No, specially because the costumes where either intimidating (hard to watch) or plainly ridiculous, so it was hard to watch them, I mean there were even kids seeing Lordis in their sleep after the show. The second point I'd like to add was that the song was BAD, it was not metal, it was not rock, it was not pop, it was not prog. It was this wretched mixture between rock and pop, just nasty stuff (in my opinion of course). ------------- ...Histoires Sans Paroles... |
Posted By: Tasartir
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 17:39
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And yes, Nightwish, Sonata Arctica or even Stratovarius (in their good old days) would have been really nice to watch and listen to. ------------- ...Histoires Sans Paroles... |
Posted By: crucify_the_ego
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 18:04
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No band who are actually good will go near Eurovision, as, nowadays, appearing on it is basically the end of your career. That said, I found Lordi utterly hilarious, and, to be honest, nowhere near as bad as most of the musicians on thee. And that a capella group ... wow, they were talented. Let's face it though, the only reason to watch it is Terry Wogan. |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 18:08
Definitely!!! ............although one year I was camping, and I actually heard some on the radio and Ken Bruce's Radio 2 was just as funny! Apparently they share a booth and get drunk all throughout the evening on "bailey's" (euch horrid stuff!) |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 18:32
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I can't believe my eyes - progheads discuss Eurovision!
IMO Eurovision is a musical event for people who don't need music at all.
Participation in it is rather a shame than a honour for any serious artist. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 18:51
| I'll see a Lordi video on Youtube.com, and I'll give you my opinion. |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 19:12
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Well, I saw "Hard Rock Alleluyah", a metallized rock/pop simple song, VERY, VERY commercial (and a bit bad, really........) The monsters are very well done, funny !! It's FAR of being Prog. I think they can have a commercial succes in the future (MTV, Muchmusic, etc......)
Overall, just another commercial band with good image, that scares me.....
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Posted By: Tony Fisher
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 19:23
Wrong! Tell Lordi that as their sales go through the roof and every festival signs them up. Winning Eurovision will catapult them into the limelight with a wider fan base and good luck to them for having the guts to be different. It was a catchy commercial rock song with a good riff, sing along chorus and fun lyrics. The 6th form rock/prog fans have been playing it in the common room today to annoy the dance and rap fans. My son (a metal/hard rock fan) thinks it's great and so do I. Not the greatest music, but great fun. Christ, I even VOTED for it (and I've never watched Eurovision before). But the point is this: it's a song from an unfashionable genre (like prog) and they play real (ie guitars, keys!) instruments, so it may stem the tide of dross that is standard Eurovision fare and encourage a few decent bands (even prog ones) to have a go. |
Posted By: Notch
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 19:45
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I think any band that did something different would have won. Imagine say a fifth of the viewers were metal fans, the rest preferring the usual pop the contest throws up. If everyone who was watching voted, the spread of pop acts means there will be no significant winner. Whereas with Lordi, they were one of a kind. All of that fifth of voters would have concentrated their votes on Lordi. Plus the fact that many people who wouldn't have otherwise voted called in to try to break the monotony of the usual pop act after pop act that the contest currently displays. |
Posted By: Drachen Theaker
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 03:27
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I've just been to Lordi's website (okay I'm sad and it's quiet at work). The keyboard player, who I find worryingly attractive, likes prog and cites Rick Wakeman and Dream Theater among her favourites.
Could Lordi spring a surprise and bring prog back to the masses?! ------------- "It's 1973, almost dinnertime and I'm 'aving 'oops!" - Gene Hunt |
Posted By: pero
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 03:46
Don't mix cultural background of Croatia with Albania. 
Croatia was long time part of Habsburg empire and influenced by European culture in classical music, art and literature.
On the other hand Sebia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia was influenced by Turkish style of life, so the music was similar to Turkish also.
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Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 04:51
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Fair enugh. For Croatia, read Macedonia, then.
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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 10:55
Poland can send RIVERSIDE on the next Eurovision.Sweden - OPETH.England - PORCUPINE TREE.Russia - AZAZELLO.It'd be a PROGOVISION!!!!!!!!     
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Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 12:47
The thing that concerns me about Progovision - which is an excellent title for an otherwise excellent idea  - is that Eurovision itself is a loooong night, with 26 countries doing a 3 minute song. Presumably, on Progovision, the minimum song length would be an epic 20 minutes........plus, instead of a straightforward awarding of points, our markers would insist on a review-length analysis.......of each song.
Anyone care to estimate the approximate length of a Progovision broadcast ?
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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 12:59
3-4 DVDs!!!
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 15:06
Chill baby.Eurovison is the funniest thing on TV.You have to watch it to believe it.
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Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 15:09
 The Lordi song is catchy as hell - admit it or not you all like it. Basically it's pop music. There are a lot of people here from the UK ; did you see / hear your own Eurovision song? Oh dear.. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 15:11
I look forward to their 20 minute opus at next years Eurovison.I wonder if the keyboard player is a girl? How can you tell?
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Posted By: crucify_the_ego
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 15:28
Perhaps things will be different for Lordi, as they are indeed something fresh and different, but the days of ABBA in Eurovision are long gone. Besides Celine Dion (and France Gall, I suppose), how many Eurovision winners can anyone remember? Normally, the winners become huge stars in their own countries, and are ignored by the rest of the world as being, well, just bad. Lordi will likely find massive success in Finland, and, quite probably, due to the bizarreness of their song, in other countries, but, generally, a prog band wouldn't be willing to compromise their artistic integrity by participating in an event as saccharine as Eurovision. Not to mention the humiliation of losing. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 15:46
Middle aged bloke rapping with female 'dancers' pretending to be school girls..wonderful
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Posted By: Tony Fisher
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 17:51
Yes, the Lordi song is as catchy as hell. It's a great piece of power pop/rock in the same vein as The Darkness or any 80s big hair headbangiing band. It's fun; we progheads can be too serious and up our own a***s sometimes, sl*gging anything vaguely designed to sell or be a bit of fun. The UK entry epitomised everything that's wrong with Eurovision. Predictable, uninspiring, it was Brits trying to copy the worst of US culture and doing it badly. How it didn't get "nul points" amazes me. Will we learn from the Finns? Will we send a prog band or The Darkness or another band that actually plays real rock (however commercial) on real instruments? With that berk Blair in charge we won't win (too damn unpopular) but at least we might show the world that we're not all chavs. I live in hope, but not expectation. |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 01:20
Yeah, but for some reason, as soon as it's Rock or Metal, a certain category of Progists will defend it, even though it may be as vacuous and simplistic as any chart hit. It's the inconsistency of that that bothers me. If you're someone who can have the above attitude to all music, not just that which is all long hairs, leather pants and guitars, I'll definitely respect that. But the general attitude of deriding all that is catchy and popular except for that which is Hard Rock-derived is pretty hackneyed. -------------
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Posted By: crucify_the_ego
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 08:12
Instrumentation does have an impact on a song, though. Listen to the Britney Spears cover by Children of Bodom, and I defy you to tell me that isn't a good song  Basically, the instrumentation of most "pop" music is quite bland and vacuous, which can, on occasion, disguise the quality of the song underneath. You must confess, some of the hooks in pop music are damn catchy. That's where Porcupine Tree shine for me - they're not afraid to use hooks and choruses, to use the vanilla pop song structure of verse-verse-chorus, etc, yet the quality of the production, the instrumentation and the lyrics, turn what could be a fairly good pop song into a great piece of prog. The same for Lordi, and their song, though perhaps "great" isn't quite the word. |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 10:53
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I'm sorry, but I am of the firm belief that the song doesn't get
much better by arrangement (unless we're talking real arranging, as in
adding strings, changing bass lines, shifting ryhtmic elements etc. -
like some of the tremendous work done on the latest Paul Anka album). A cover done in a different style can be funny or interesting, but unless you do some of the things noted above, you're not improving on the actual song. Sure, performance, sound and instrumentation is an important factor, but that's not what I am discussing. It's obvious to me that certain types of instrumentation and performance styles will allow certain listeners to look beyond the shortcomings of the song. In fact, I doubt most people really listen to how a song is put together - and that's why the template is so locked down; you don't need to do anything but follow the same path everyone else has for decades now. PTree shine (when they do shine - early PTree I find deathly dull) by dint of precisely adding just enough filigree and detail to vanilla structures to boost them into something different. Even if Britney, Lordi or Celine Dion were to do Blackest Eyes (and did not mess with the actual elements of the song) it would still be quite a good tune. And if PTree play My Sharona, it would still be f**king annoying and awful. When early Yes did covers, they reworked them extensively and always - to my ears - improved on the original. But just playing the song as written, whatever your sonic elements or your performance, will never improve the song itself. -------------
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Posted By: spacecraft
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 19:47
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If voting in the trully appalling Eurodivision thong contest isn't political (yeah and the Nazi's didn't use Zirkon B to gas the jews), what is it? Every Baltic state voted for Russia, friends of the Uk voted for them, and so on. To say it wasn't political is sheer crass, and shows a complete lack of knowledge in the Euro arena. I watched the voting (sadist that i am), and got nearly 90% of votes right...work it out people, The best song doesn't win, fear does. ------------- To Him as the Supreme King and Judge we commit our cause, casting our cares upon Him and firmly trusting that He will inspire us with courage and bring our enemies to nought. |
Posted By: Teaflax
Date Posted: May 27 2006 at 19:56
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Oh, all of Europe lives in thrall to the concept of voting for their
neighbors! Right. If only you hade any idea how little Swedes actualy like
Norwegians or Danes like Swedes... Also, Nazi's is a possessive. You meant Nazis - no need to type that extra character. I usually don't correct stuff like that, but someone who uses that offensive a metaphor for no good reason doesn't deserve that kind of concern. -------------
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Posted By: Angeldust
Date Posted: May 28 2006 at 01:24
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To be honest i really don't think that Eurovision can pursuade someone to listen to some good stuff.Because everybody and i really mean everybody who takes it seriously as an event and likes it also, will listen to everything that will win that f**king contest.Won't have an opinion about it ,or his opinion will change in 5 minutes.Ok it's been funny that Lordi won that thing but in the end , they won for the same reasons that almost anybody wins.The visuals. ------------- 
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