Da Vinci Code controversy
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Topic: Da Vinci Code controversy
Posted By: Blacksword
Subject: Da Vinci Code controversy
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 08:01
Ron Howards film of Dan Browns 'Davinci Code' opens on May the 19th in the UK. The film is causing uproar. The Opus Dei catholic sect is demanding that the film has a disclaimer making it clear that it is a work of fiction. The book and film portray the sect as a dark and sinister organisation who self harm and abuse others. The Vatican is also launching a counter PR offensive.
Director Ron Howard says it should be obvious to anyone that it is fictional, and that spy thrillers dont need disclaimers. The film stars Tom Hanks as a Harvard scholar entwined in a murder mystery which points to an alternative history of Christianity.
Is the controversy justifed, or should the church butt out??
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Replies:
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 08:05
All i can tell you is i'm tired to see everybody do the same and read the same book.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 08:16
Bit of a storm in a teacup if you ask me.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 08:34
Blacksword wrote:
Ron Howards film of Dan Browns 'Davinci Code' opens on May the 19th in the UK. The film is causing uproar. The Opus Dei catholic sect is demanding that the film has a disclaimer making it clear that it is a work of fiction. The book and film portray the sect as a dark and sinister organisation who self harm and abuse others. The Vatican is also launching a counter PR offensive.
Director Ron Howard says it should be obvious to anyone that it is fictional, and that spy thrillers dont need disclaimers. The film stars Tom Hanks as a Harvard scholar entwined in a murder mystery which points to an alternative history of Christianity.
Is the controversy justifed, or should the church butt out?? |
Only the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Opus dei represents the most absurdly and integrist current of Catholic faith and are thouroughly hateble although I think there are more dangerous christian sects around >> Scientology for ex.
if you listen to Opus Dei you should go to mass everyday in Latin and the priest turning his back on the communiants etc...
This alternative christian history is however a bit of loch ness monster and subject to a bunch od fantasies! I call these stories Vat-Fi (Vatican Fiction)
Thing is that those new testaments or Evangiles were actually written some 400 years after the prophet's death, completely manypulated by the so-called authorities who decided that such and such verse should be interpreted as they see it and no other way 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 08:57
I agree with Ron Howard - it's a work of fiction. Lighten up! (not you Andy).
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Posted By: Fitzcarraldo
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 09:08
Sony must be figuratively rubbing its hands in glee... the Church is adding to the hype and providing added publicity, arousing more Public curiosity.
------------- http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=326" rel="nofollow - Read reviews by Fitzcarraldo
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Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 09:09
It's the work of heretics. In the good old days they'd all be burnt at the stake.
As we Opus Dei members like to say:
Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est
------------- Proud to be an un-banned member since 2005
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 09:35
^Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 09:37
The book has a prose style that makes Jeffrey Archer read like a combination of James Joyce and Tolstoy in comparison. The film may well be successful and even enjoyable - Ron 'Ritchie Cunningham' Howard can be a pretty good director - but I think that the Catholic church will do itself more harm than good by taking a stand against it. In which case, let the protests continue!
------------- 'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Posted By: A'swepe
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 09:45
Last time I checked, a Novel is a work of FICTION.
Asking Dan Brown, or Ron Howard to post a disclaimer would be like asking Tom Clancy to do the same because his novels are about the CIA & the US Military. I personally find these works of fiction very interesting reading. The fact that the entities portrayed exist should in no way lead readers to any conclusions regarding real events, real people, or real organizations.
I read The DaVinci Code & enjoyed it as fiction. Mr. Brown has a vivid imagination & I give him credit for writing a compelling novel set in the present day.
That being said, I enjoyed his novel Angels and Demons more - it too relies heavily on the Vatican & religious entities for its plot. If you liked The DaVinci Code, you will probably love Angels And Demons.
Oh yeah, seems like every novel i've ever read has a "Disclaimer" page at the beginning stating something to the effect that... This is a work of fiction. Any resemblance to actual people of events is coincidental & the work of the author's imagination.
------------- David - Never doubt in the dark that which you believe to be true in the light.
http://www.myspace.com/aardvarktxusa - Instrumental rock
http://www.soundclick.com/aardvarktxusa
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:06
Religion is fiction, so what´s the problem ?
------------- Billy Connolly
Dream Theater
Terry Gilliam
Hagen Quartet
Jethro Tull
Mike Keneally
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Posted By: man@arms
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:09
It seems to me that every movie made that deals with Christ always generates a controversy. Think about Mel Gibson's 'Passion of the Christ' or Martin Scorsese's 'Last Temptation of Christ'. Both of those caused an uproar when they were released; 'Passion' from the Jews who believed it betrayed them in a bad light, 'Temptation' from the Evagelical Christians who felt it was sacrilegious. When making a movie about Jesus it's bound to piss off someone. Why should Ron Howard's movie be any different?
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:09
Velvetclown wrote:
Religion is fiction, so what´s the problem ?  |
in your 30000000000000000000000000000000 posts so far , this is the one that makes most sense 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:10
Sorry....It was NOT MY INTENSION
I must be gettin soft
------------- Billy Connolly
Dream Theater
Terry Gilliam
Hagen Quartet
Jethro Tull
Mike Keneally
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Posted By: man@arms
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:11
Sean Trane wrote:
Velvetclown wrote:
Religion is fiction, so what´s the problem ?  |
in your 30000000000000000000000000000000 posts so far , this is the one that makes most sense  |
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:12
Velvetclown wrote:
Sorry....It was NOT MY INTENSION
I must be gettin soft  |
Old age striking quicker than you thought , Uh 
next step is premature ejaculation, Velvie 
Better that than total impotency 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:13
What have I done !!
I made some sense !!!! Yikes
I´m losing it !!!!!
------------- Billy Connolly
Dream Theater
Terry Gilliam
Hagen Quartet
Jethro Tull
Mike Keneally
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:14
Ha Niagara works wonders !!!
------------- Billy Connolly
Dream Theater
Terry Gilliam
Hagen Quartet
Jethro Tull
Mike Keneally
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:16
ejaculation with a two week delay !!!
------------- Billy Connolly
Dream Theater
Terry Gilliam
Hagen Quartet
Jethro Tull
Mike Keneally
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:20
Velvetclown wrote:
ejaculation with a two week delay !!! |
Now I recognize our Velvie better!
I was afraid his identity was being usurped 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
|
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:23
NO NO I´m still a Dirty Old Man
------------- Billy Connolly
Dream Theater
Terry Gilliam
Hagen Quartet
Jethro Tull
Mike Keneally
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:24
Guess I should start ANOTHER useless thread
On the other hand......... NOooooo
------------- Billy Connolly
Dream Theater
Terry Gilliam
Hagen Quartet
Jethro Tull
Mike Keneally
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Posted By: man@arms
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:27
It's funny how a thread can go from the "Da Vinci Code" to premature ejaculation. I love it!
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 10:28
Well........It takes some doing....but we are very flexible in here
------------- Billy Connolly
Dream Theater
Terry Gilliam
Hagen Quartet
Jethro Tull
Mike Keneally
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 11:04
man@arms wrote:
It's funny how a thread can go from the "Da Vinci Code" to premature ejaculation. I love it! |
Quite a relevant link
Vatican >> priest >> no sex >> premature ejaculation under their robes and thinking about their fictional gods 
Elementary my Dear Watson 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 11:09
Da Vinci code = BOGUS!
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 11:16
man@arms wrote:
[IMG]height=17 alt=LOL src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> It's funny how a thread can go from the "Da Vinci Code" to premature ejaculation. I love it! |
Well, it is a load of old w&nk!
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 11:21
Sean Trane wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Ron Howards film of Dan Browns 'Davinci Code' opens on May the 19th in the UK. The film is causing uproar. The Opus Dei catholic sect is demanding that the film has a disclaimer making it clear that it is a work of fiction. The book and film portray the sect as a dark and sinister organisation who self harm and abuse others. The Vatican is also launching a counter PR offensive. Director Ron Howard says it should be obvious to anyone that it is fictional, and that spy thrillers dont need disclaimers. The film stars Tom Hanks as a Harvard scholar entwined in a murder mystery which points to an alternative history of Christianity. Is the controversy justifed, or should the church butt out?? |
Only the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Opus dei represents the most absurdly and integrist current of Catholic faith and are thouroughly hateble although I think there are more dangerous christian sects around >> Scientology for ex.
if you listen to Opus Dei you should go to mass everyday in Latin and the priest turning his back on the communiants etc...
This alternative christian history is however a bit of loch ness monster and subject to a bunch od fantasies! I call these stories Vat-Fi (Vatican Fiction)
Thing is that those new testaments or Evangiles were actually written some 400 years after the prophet's death, completely manypulated by the so-called authorities who decided that such and such verse should be interpreted as they see it and no other way[IMG]height=17 alt=Dead src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> |
We have an MP who is a member of Opus Dei. I think it's Ruth Kelly (perhaps someone can confirm) Whatever her name is she's just been put in charge of equality, tolerance and all things nice, which is ironic as Opus Dei loathe homosexuals, and Kelly has abstained from numerous commons votes on issues to improve equality for gays and lesbiens. Nice choice of minister Tony!
Scientology? Is that anything to do with Christianity. I dont know much about it, but I thought it's founder L.Ron Hubbard only registered it as a religion to elude the tax man at the time??
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Posted By: man@arms
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 11:38
Posted By: man@arms
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 11:53
Sean Trane wrote:
man@arms wrote:
It's funny how a thread can go from the "Da Vinci Code" to premature ejaculation. I love it! |
Quite a relevant link
Vatican >> priest >> no sex >> premature ejaculation under their robes and thinking about their fictional gods 
Elementary my Dear Watson  |
 Thanks mate, I hadn't thought about it like that!
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 13:30
It should be banned. Not because of the church, but just because it was a terrible book that should be forgotten forever.
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Posted By: Royalist
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 13:50
The church is always making mountains out of a molehill. Da Vinci code is a fictional story. There are many movies about Russian mafia attempting to rule the world and U.S. government hiding UFO spaceships. Nobody starts crusades against it. Is it wrong to say that a man had a child? When a bishop speaks about evil satanists it is OK, when a writer writes about evil Opus Dei it is wrong? Myth against myth. Religions teach obout heavens and hells, gods and demons just like it's 100% sure. No trace of proof. But when you don't wear a black/white long dress and a funny cap you're not allowed to tell your legends. One book is good, another book is bad. Just like kids arguing about who built the best sand castle.
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Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 13:54
I have read the disclaimer that Opus Dei is demanding to be added at the beginning of the film and it GIVES away the complete clue of the story! At least I know it is the clue, because I have read the book couple of months ago.
Nevertheless, I'm still going to see this film in cinema very soon
------------- Interested in my reviews?
You can find them http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=784 - HERE
"...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..."
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 14:00
I've always been a sucker for thrillers and detective stories with a religious theme,even if it is all a load of old guff. Must be the Catholic brainwashing I received as a child......
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Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 19:39
The church should butt out. I don't see the big deal with some dude's book about his ideas of Jesus. It's just the latest thing for the church to condemn. Just out of curiosity, do they endorse/like anything, because all I hear is the latest condemnation. Maybe they're making some noise to be heard because no one would listen to them otherwise.
But for the record, I enjoyed the book and will be enjoying the movie shortly.
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 20:07
Erm, they're not his thoughts on Jesus though are they?
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Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 20:12
Velvy's right for once anyway the book is overrated and Tom Hanks? that just killed it
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 21:05
Arsillus wrote:
Just out of curiosity, do they endorse/like anything |
Yes. It doesn't make very interesting news, though...
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 00:22
Setting aside any notion of whether religion is fiction (VC - nice to see the leopard hasn't changed his spots! LOL), or even whether The Da Vinci Code is fiction or what is being called "faction," the real question, as posed at the beginning, is: what is/should be the "Christian" reaction to the book.
As the resident minister (LOL), it might surprise you to find that I agree with the majority: tempest in a teapot. Indeed, I will go further and state that any "Christian" who gets "bent out of shape" every time an alternative/controversial view of any aspect of Christianity comes along - The Da Vinci Code, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Life of Brian, Dogma, Mary, etc. - shows a weakness of faith. (Indeed, one could argue that such a reaction lacks humility, forgiveness and patience - three of the most important tenets of Jesus' ministry.) Those with strong faith can "take a joke," or simply "accept," and not get their back up in such cases.
That said, there are two caveats. First, there is a difference between being satiric or irreverent and being insulting and profane. As the site rules suggest, "profanity" - the conscious, deliberate, spiteful or malicious denigration of another person's faith or strongest-held belief system - is inappropriate and wrong; there is no excuse for it, and any reaction it does provoke is understandable.
Second, the real "problem" with "faction" like The Da Vinci Code is that it sets up a sort of "historical revisionism" that can be dangerous for those with little knowledge. As we all know, perception can be more powerful than reality, and when something is as pervasively popular as The Da Vinci Code, the danger of such "perception"' is increased. Just as 17% of the American public still believes that there was a direct link between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda (despite that claim having been totally and thoroughly debunked even in the most right-wing publications) simply as a result of the constant repetition and reiteration of that claim (despite any solid evidence to support it), popular books/films like The Da Vinci Code are likely to leave the impression/perception that many of the fictional elements are fact. [As an aside, the spiritual "danger" of books like The Da Vinci Code to those who are "new" to the faith are even greater. However, that is a separate subject.]
This does not mean that debates about the history of Christianity are bad: indeed, such debates tend to strengthen the "foundational" truths (and yes, there are foundational truths) of the orthodox "Judeo-Christian construct," even if some of what we "know" about that history is incorrect. However, the replacing of those foundational truths and/or widely-accepted scholarly beliefs/truths with "faction" that has little or no evidentiary surpport is not a good thing.
Peace.
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 07:17
^^
Maani said it all! 
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 07:25
Norbert wrote:
^^
Maani said it all!  |
Ditto, ditto, ditto!!!!
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 07:59
^^^^^^^^^
Hi Maani,
Thoughtful post as usual 
BTW, you are not the only "resident minister" as Moogtron III got recently ordained also, so he has been blessing the Archives in your (regretted) absence 
Again your stance shows how much of a Free Speech ardent fan you are and I think this is the salutory way for the Church to remain in contact with the people (I chose this word to be wider than just the fidels as I think one of the positive sides of Church nowadays is to deal through dialogue with atheist or others, rather than setting them on bonfire as it was the case for a few centuries), but with Opus Dei, they consider themselves as gardian of the faith, dialogue is impossible.
You being protestant, I do not know if you follow that much the Catholic circus in Vatican (see the next paragraph below  ), but I suppose all protestant still keep an eye on what the Vatican does since it is the only place where the historic writings are kept (and Opus Dei is the "sect" closest to such texts and many poisoning deaths have been attributed to these extremists) and basically all protestant are offshoots from Catholic , much like Orthodox (but with major differences, I will admit)
As a born-catholic but confirmed atheist , I feel I can safely describe this pope thing as a enactement of saintlyness/(Sanctity?) as a masquarade and the power fights happenings simply shameful. And Opus Dei is in the thick of things and are IMHO, the direct descendant of the Inquisition and are hardliner much more dangerous than Jesuits and other currents inside the circus. Opus Dei was right behind the fire in France's moviehouses of Scorcese's Temptation movie a decade ago.
Had I not become atheist by true conviction (and not out of reject), I think I would've been protestant , because the way this "we know the truth" bit of Opus Dei is sickening >> they know nothing more than the average Joe!! And how about the drastic increase and lobbying in the number of saints (JPII has declared more of them during his reign than the last four centuries) being recognized >> Circus I tell you. >> I much prefer the way protestant.
However, as I posted above, there have supputations on the Christian faith for centuries (the templars and this story of Jesus having a brother etc) as to what exactly happened before four "Apostles" actually wrote the story some 400 years later, leaving ground to all sorts of suppositions >> In this regard Islam does not have such a problem since the sacred writings date from the prophet's lifetime.
So such parallel stories are frequent and numerous and make the joy of fiction writers and there is a great increase of these simply because much light is shed on them by denouncing them. What would be the shame in admitting that things are not what they thoughta few centuries back? All religions have a problem admitting to wrongdoings
I have not read this DaVinci book, but read many accounts (and discussing in lenght with people who have) and will avoid the movie list the plague, but not for blasphemy or fear of offending christians, but simpluy I have had my fill  of those kind of "Fictions" and I refuse to contribute to this commercial fill by actually reading or viewing this "story" as this would be like approving of it if I had done so. And this whole controversy is probably exactly what hollywood is looking for just as earlier this year, they pushed the Syriana controversy.
And I thought I was a cynical SOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: Minkia
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 14:16
To Dan Brown's (dis)credit with The Da Vinci Code all he's done is to have, in essence, created in prosaic form a sh*t-stirrer of a book. The man has been cashing in for a few years now since the release of TDVC and now that soppy director Ron Howard has got his claws on the script and made a film, one can imagine the big boo-ha that it'll create.
All Dan Brown's done is to collate all the theories surrounding the so-called 'forbidden knowledge' which has for centuries been banned by the Vatican and the established church in book form.
The forbidden knowledge, and central topic of the book, revolves around the forbidden belief that Christ was not the virtuous virgin the Church has since the inception of Christianity purported to be. Brown's topics are not his invention as they have existed since the inception of Christianity. The forbidden knowledge is made up of several facts, like alchemy, magic, etc, but mainly by the fact that, according to sources that the Church has tried to cover up for centuries, the Nazarene personified did lead a normal lifestyle like everyone else, by having a normal relationship with Mary Magdalene who the Vatican has portrayed as a woman of low morals. The truth of the matter is that Christ not only shagged Magdalene, but he also fathered at least one child, thus starting a lineage which according to some sources can be traced back to the Merovingian dynasty (if you are that romantically inclined to believe in the Holy Grail, the Spear of Destiny, the Holy Shroud and similar artifacts).
The crux is that the powers that be (ie the Roman church) have tried to repeal by any possible means any belief that followed such line of thought, that is ordinary Christians who believed that Christ had fathered children by deeming such believers as heretics and implementing for such 'friendly' and 'christian' means the infamous Inquisition.
It is a known historical fact that the Vatican has persecuted to almost extinction any followers of the line of thought that worshipped Christ for what he was, that is a normal human being who was prone to the occasional miracle. Prime examples of the christian church's friendly deeds are the Cathars and the Albigenses, who were persecuted and exterminated because deemed heretics due to their beliefs which deviated from those followed by Christendom at large.
At the Council of Nicaea the then Christian Mafia decided to 'edit' the gospels around at the time, by keeping only what they thought to be morally relevant and not shocking. I mean, can you imagine the consequences it would have had if Christendom had been made aware that Christ wasn't as special and virtuous as he was purported to be and that he too was partial to the pleasures of the flesh?
It's no big deal what Dan Brown has created and the consequences, especially now that it's been made a film, will be felt mainly by the zealots amongst us and perhaps in the USA, given that the Americans should have by now become tired of the political f**kups of good ol' GW Bush - it should give them something for the tv evangelists to be outraged about.
Lordy!!
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Posted By: Rosescar
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 14:48
Most people are gullibe (including me) and will believe everything from
the book or film (especially since all art descriptions etc. are
authentic - which they are not). So a lot of people will believe the
supression of femininity by the church and all that crap.
On another forum I regular, some guy said the church was evil because
they've never had a female pope. If you bear in mind that the US has
never even had a female president or black canditate (I believe
the church atleast had a cardinal running for popeship that was black)
for presidency and this fellow was from that country, you might
understand how some people go completely over the top because of such a
movie/film.
On the other hand, most of the people that already truelly believe
won't change of religion because of this and most people should be
aware that it can't entirely be true.
------------- http://www.soundclick.com/rosescar/ - My music!
"THE AUDIENCE WERE generally drugged. (In Holland, always)." - Robert Fripp
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 15:48
Rosescar:
You are correct about the suppression of femininity - i.e., women - by the capital C Church. Indeed, setting aside any alleged evidence of a "normal" (i.e., physical- sexual) relationship with Jesus, Mary Magdalene was unquestionably a far more important figure than the capital C Church has ever allowed. Indeed, it is quite possible that she was equal to Peter and James.
Re a female pope, there is some evidence (about as much as there is for TDVC...LOL) that there was, in fact, a female pope, but she disguised herself as a man and served as pope for between one and two years. This is the genesis of the story of "Pope Joan."
Minkia:
You say that "The forbidden knowledge is made up of several facts...but mainly by the fact that, according to sources that the Church has tried to cover up for centuries, the Nazarene personified did lead a normal lifestyle like everyone else, by having a normal relationship with Mary Magdalene who the Vatican has portrayed as a woman of low morals. The truth of the matter is that Christ not only shagged Magdalene, but he also fathered at least one child..."
Let me ask you something: Have you, personally, seen any of this alleged evidence? Do you know anyone who has? If not, to what do you attribute your claim that they are "facts?" If you choose to disbelieve the foundational truths of orthodox Christianity, that is certainly your prerogative. However, to state with certainty that any particular alternative view is "fact" is not simply insupportable, but shows a lack of knowledge of the history of the Judeo-Christian construct. Certainly not everything we have been taught about the Judeo-Christian construct is correct. However, the evidence to support the proto-orthodox (and later orthodox) view of Christianity is manifold times more solid than that for any alternative view, particularly one that flies in the face of even the most rudimentary of scholarly works on the subject.
Are you aware, for example, that all of the major 2nd and 3rd century (i.e., pre-Council of Nicea) scholars - Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement, Origen et al - agreed on the basic truths that later became the foundation for proto-orthodox Christian thought? What makes this notable is that all of them disagreed vehemently with each other on various specific issues: indeed, among these five men are a Marcionite, an Ebionite, and even a quasi-gnostic Valentinian. Yet despite their bitter disagreements on certain specifics, all of them agreed on many of the foundational truths that were later codified at the Council of Nicea.
This is a critical point because it gives the lie to the belief that the Council of Nicea - which was, admittedly, a quasi-"politicized" event - did not work with any "background," but merely unilaterally determined what "orthodox" Christianity would look like.
In fact, contrary to your assertion, those involved in the Council agonized profoundly over many of the issues. True, the gospels and other writings that were eventually chosen to make up the “New Testament” were largely agreed upon. However, even here, the facts do not bear out your accusation that they kept only what was “morally relevant.” Rather, they kept those epistles and gospels which had been in widest circulation for the longest time. And note that those writings were in widest circulation for the longest time not because the other writings (Gnostic, etc.) had been destroyed or suppressed – that came much later – but because they were both the oldest and most widely disseminated writings (pre-dating the Gnostic writings by as much as 100 years or more), and the most accepted by the populace at the time. For example, the majority of scholars (including Gnostic scholars) agree that the Gospel of Mark was the first gospel written, around 60 A.D. Thus, by the time the first non-apostolic gospels appeared in the latter half of the first century, the Gospel of Mark had been in circulation for decades. And given that all four of the apostolic gospels, as well as the letters of Paul, had been written by 90 A.D., all of them had been in circulation for decades prior to the appearance of most non-apostolic gospels, and over 100 years before the first Gnostic gospel appeared.
This does not mean that, at a later date, the “proto-orthodox” group did not suppress and/or destroy later writings: they did. But by that time, the four apostolic gospels and the letters of Paul were the most widely-accepted Christian writings – not because of any hanky-panky on the part of the “church fathers,” but because the majority of believers at the time knew that they were the earliest writings (and thus written closest to the time of Jesus’ ministry), and accepted them on that basis.
Again, this does not mean there were not other considerations taken into account by those involved in the Council. There were. And some of them are regrettable. But this does not change the fact – fact, as accepted by hundreds of scholars (including Gnostic scholars) based on a wealth of evidence – that the foundational truths in the New Testament – Jesus’ ministry, ascetic lifestyle, crucifixion and resurrection – had been agreed upon by a highly disparate group of scholars in the 2nd and 3rd centuries (almost 150 years before the Council of Nicea) and accepted by the majority of the believing populace, and thus formed the foundation upon which the Council acted, and were not simply “cherry-picked” by the Council in some sinister, nefarious plot to “re-write” the Judeo-Christian construct.
Peace.
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Posted By: marktheshark
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 12:40
Hanks blasts Da Vinci critics
By Tom Teodorczuk & Mike Goodridge, Evening Standard
The row over the imminent release of the Da Vinci Code film grew today when star Tom Hanks hit out at its Catholic critics.
Cardinals, speaking with the authorisation of the Vatican, have called for the Hollywood version of Dan Brown's bestselling novel to be boycotted.
They say the theme of the film - that Jesus Christ had children with Mary Magdalene and that hardline Catholic movement Opus Dei covered up his secret life - is highly blasphemous.
But Oscar-winner Hanks said objectors to The Da Vinci Code are taking the film too seriously, telling the Evening Standard: "We always knew there would be a segment of society that would not want this movie to be shown.
"But the story we tell is loaded with all sorts of hooey and fun kind of scavenger-hunt-type nonsense.
"If you are going to take any sort of movie at face value, particularly a huge-budget motion picture like this, you'd be making a very big mistake.
"It's a damn good story and a lot of fun... all it is is dialogue. That never hurts."
The Da Vinci Code book has sold more than 40 million copies since it was published in 2003. The film, released by Sony Pictures division Columbia Pictures, is set to be one of the year's most successful when it is released worldwide on 19 May.
As well as Hanks, it stars Audrey Tautou and Sir Ian McKellen and is directed by Oscar winner Ron Howard.
The Da Vinci Code receives its world premiere at the Cannes Film Festival next Wednesday.
Calls for Christians to boycott it have been led by Archbishop Angelo Amato, the number two official in the Vatican doctrinal office, which was headed by Pope Benedict until his election last year.
Amato described the novel as "stridently anti-Christian" and called for believers to "reject the lies and gratuitous defamation" in the book.
He added: "If such lies and errors had been directed at the Koran and Holocaust they would have justly provoked a world uprising.
"Instead, if they are directed against the church and Christians, they remain unpunished. I hope you will boycott the film."
Cardinal Francis Arinze, a Nigerian tipped to be Pope last year, went even further.
He said: "Christians must not just sit back and say it is enough for us to forgive and forget. Sometimes it is our duty to do something practical.
"Some know legal means which can be taken in order to get the other person to respect the rights of others."
The Catholic church here is taking a more relaxed line, arguing that in the face of the film's blockbuster appeal, calling for a boycott would be pointless.
Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor, head of the Roman Catholic church in England and Wales, told the Jonathan Dimbleby programme on ITV1 on Sunday: "I think it's a harmless thriller. If people want to read it they can and people who read it should realise it is fiction."
But some prominent UK Catholics favour a harder stance. Piers Paul Read, himself a best-selling novelist, said:
"I am for the boycott. I don't think Catholics should put money into the pockets of people who have invented lies about the church."
Another eminent Catholic, socialite Claus Von Bülow, said: "I am not going to see The Da Vinci Code. This has nothing to do with its historical claims but because I found the book unreadable."
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 20:44
You, my good sir, are quite ignorant. Please allow me to destroy your post.
Sean Trane wrote:
Only the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Opus dei represents the most absurdly and integrist current of Catholic faith and are thouroughly hateble although I think there are more dangerous christian sects around >> Scientology for ex.
if you listen to Opus Dei you should go to mass everyday in Latin and the priest turning his back on the communiants etc... |
Only one exclamtion point is necessary. Scientology is not a Christian sect; they believe in reincarnation! What's so bad about going to Mass every day? You make it sound like the Mass is inherently evil. A truly pious person would want to go to Mass every day. As for the Latin and the priest turning his back on the people, that was done for the entire history of the Church until 1968.
This alternative christian history is however a bit of loch ness monster and subject to a bunch od fantasies! I call these stories Vat-Fi (Vatican Fiction)
Thing is that those new testaments or Evangiles were actually written some 400 years after the prophet's death, completely manypulated by the so-called authorities who decided that such and such verse should be interpreted as they see it and no other way |
I don't even know what you're talking about. The Vatican condemns the DaVinci Code because it's a retarded heresy. The Gospels were all written before 100 AD. You're not being coherent.
I really don't understand what all the fuss is about; it's not even a great book, and it's beyond me how anyone can take it seriously, religious or not. Since when does an airport book become a national bestseller?
------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine."
Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber.
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Posted By: marktheshark
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 21:13
Ghandi 2 wrote:
Since when does an airport book become a national bestseller? |
We're Americans, we like our art with cheese.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 13 2006 at 09:41
Ghandi 2 wrote:
You, my good sir, are quite ignorant. Please allow me to destroy your post.>> before calling somebody ignorant , you should maybe
Sean Trane wrote:
Only the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Opus dei represents the most absurdly and integrist current of Catholic faith and are thouroughly hateble although I think there are more dangerous christian sects around >> Scientology for ex.
if you listen to Opus Dei you should go to mass everyday in Latin and the priest turning his back on the communiants etc... |
Only one exclamtion point is necessary. Scientology is not a Christian sect >> Sorry , i meant Latter day saints >> Mormons!!! (always confusing those religious zealots and their congregation names) that these guys have derived from Christian preceipts at first, ( I am no expert), but it is a fact
What's so bad about going to Mass every day? >> when it becomes a must-do and you are not well seen if you do not........... You make it sound like the Mass is inherently evil. >> you read that the way you wish , I think this is about controlling people . A truly pious person would want to go to Mass every day. As for the Latin and the priest turning his back on the people, that was done for the entire history of the Church until 1968. >> Beg ya pardon?? Most of catholics never mastered enough latin (education equality) so 95% of masses where given in the local language >> little use dishing out "gibberish" in a language not understood by whom it is intended to!!! Please review your facts (this might have been possible in Italy and Latin america because of similitude of languages but even then I doubt it) before trying to destroy someone's family experiences
This alternative christian history is however a bit of loch ness monster and subject to a bunch od fantasies! I call these stories Vat-Fi (Vatican Fiction)
Thing is that those new testaments or Evangiles were actually written some 400 years after the prophet's death, completely manypulated by the so-called authorities who decided that such and such verse should be interpreted as they see it and no other way |
I don't even know what you're talking about. The Vatican condemns the DaVinci Code because it's a retarded heresy. The Gospels were all written before 100 AD. You're not being coherent.>> the four testaments where written between 300 and 400 AD , before that it was transmitted orally, please check your facts in credible manner >> although I would be at pain of proving you my side of these facts by giving you a web link , since I do not care the least bit whether you believe it or not, and therefore will not spend time looking for it on the web.
I really don't understand what all the fuss is about; it's not even a great book, and it's beyond me how anyone can take it seriously, religious or not. Since when does an airport book become a national bestseller? >> From what I gather about this book, thiçs might be the only point where I will agree with you!! What is all that fuss about?? further more : WHO REALLY GIVES A HOOT ???? |
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: May 13 2006 at 11:50
maani wrote:
Setting aside any notion of whether religion is fiction (VC - nice to see the leopard hasn't changed his spots! LOL), or even whether The Da Vinci Code is fiction or what is being called "faction," the real question, as posed at the beginning, is: what is/should be the "Christian" reaction to the book.
As the resident minister (LOL), it might surprise you to find that I agree with the majority: tempest in a teapot. Indeed, I will go further and state that any "Christian" who gets "bent out of shape" every time an alternative/controversial view of any aspect of Christianity comes along - The Da Vinci Code, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Life of Brian, Dogma, Mary, etc. - shows a weakness of faith. (Indeed, one could argue that such a reaction lacks humility, forgiveness and patience - three of the most important tenets of Jesus' ministry.) Those with strong faith can "take a joke," or simply "accept," and not get their back up in such cases.
That said, there are two caveats. First, there is a difference between being satiric or irreverent and being insulting and profane. As the site rules suggest, "profanity" - the conscious, deliberate, spiteful or malicious denigration of another person's faith or strongest-held belief system - is inappropriate and wrong; there is no excuse for it, and any reaction it does provoke is understandable.
Second, the real "problem" with "faction" like The Da Vinci Code is that it sets up a sort of "historical revisionism" that can be dangerous for those with little knowledge. As we all know, perception can be more powerful than reality, and when something is as pervasively popular as The Da Vinci Code, the danger of such "perception"' is increased. Just as 17% of the American public still believes that there was a direct link between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda (despite that claim having been totally and thoroughly debunked even in the most right-wing publications) simply as a result of the constant repetition and reiteration of that claim (despite any solid evidence to support it), popular books/films like The Da Vinci Code are likely to leave the impression/perception that many of the fictional elements are fact. [As an aside, the spiritual "danger" of books like The Da Vinci Code to those who are "new" to the faith are even greater. However, that is a separate subject.]
This does not mean that debates about the history of Christianity are bad: indeed, such debates tend to strengthen the "foundational" truths (and yes, there are foundational truths) of the orthodox "Judeo-Christian construct," even if some of what we "know" about that history is incorrect. However, the replacing of those foundational truths and/or widely-accepted scholarly beliefs/truths with "faction" that has little or no evidentiary surpport is not a good thing.
Peace. |
You mean those movies weren't really based off of the Bible? But seriously, even as a relatively strong Christian, *not catholic* I don't mind these movies at all, in fact, I think, in a very twisted way, they somewhat help Christianity. I mean, if you look at it, all of them are basically acknowledging the religion itself to be true *at least in the movie*, only with some minor twist to it. What the Church should be upset about is if they made a movie about Satan coming to the cross and taking Jesus to hell and having him never come back and have the whole Church clergy really be demons who were puppets of the Dark Lord. I think there's a black metal concept album about that somewhere.... But anyways, point is, it's a movie, most people will accept it as fiction!
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: May 13 2006 at 12:52
Sean Trane wrote:
before calling somebody ignorant , you should maybe |
Maybe what? Please finish your sentences.
Sean Trane wrote:
>> Sorry , i meant Latter day saints >> Mormons!!! (always confusing those religious zealots and their congregation names) that these guys have derived from Christian preceipts at first, ( I am no expert), but it is a fact |
They borrowed some Christian things, but they aren't really Christian; they believe you can become a god.
What's so bad about going to Mass every day? >> when it becomes a must-do and you are not well seen if you do not........... |
Well I don't know if that's true overall, but it probably is the case in some places. Either way, TDVC is nowhere near an accurate portrayal of Opus Dei (and I don't even like them).
As for the Latin and the priest turning his back on the people, that was done for the entire history of the Church until 1968. >> Beg ya pardon?? Most of catholics never mastered enough latin (education equality) so 95% of masses where given in the local language >> little use dishing out "gibberish" in a language not understood by whom it is intended to!!! Please review your facts (this might have been possible in Italy and Latin america because of similitude of languages but even then I doubt it) before trying to destroy someone's family experiences |
No, you're wrong, the Mass was done in Latin. There was a period when people still spoke Latin, hence the Vulgate Bible, which is in Latin. Then Latin did lose prominence as regional languages took hold, but the Mass was still done in Latin all over the world. It didn't matter that nobody spoke it; it was still done in Latin because that was the way it had always been done.
You know where the word Hocus Pocus comes from? It is a corruption of the words of the Consecration, "Hoc est enim, corpus meum, quid pro vobis tradetur" Say them fast, slur the syllables together, and you should hear the Hocus very clearly. Then the people cut off the end and added Pocus because it ryhmes. They're the magic words which transform the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. You review your facts; there is lots of evidence that the Mass was said in Latin everywhere for a very long. But please don't go to the retarded site that said the Gospels were written in the 4th century, because it'll be wrong. :S
Now once Gutenburg invented the handy printing press and more people could read, there were Missals with the translation that people could use to follow along.
This alternative christian history is however a bit of loch ness monster and subject to a bunch od fantasies! I call these stories Vat-Fi (Vatican Fiction)
Thing is that those new testaments or Evangiles were actually written some 400 years after the prophet's death, completely manypulated by the so-called authorities who decided that such and such verse should be interpreted as they see it and no other way |
You didn't answer what exactly the alternative Christian history is; you make it sound like the real history is the "alternative" one, but TDVC is the alternate history.
.>> the four testaments where written between 300 and 400 AD , before that it was transmitted orally, please check your facts in credible manner >> although I would be at pain of proving you my side of these facts by giving you a web link , since I do not care the least bit whether you believe it or not, and therefore will not spend time looking for it on the web. |
Once again, you are wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel - Scroll down to "Origin of the Cononical Gospels . Those first dates are the scholarly consensus, who want to date them as late as possible to make them less legitimate. You're thinking of the oldest surviving complete Gospels; there's fragments from before then Spreading misinformation sucks.
The people to whom the Gospels are attributed were educated; they could write or had enough money to hire a scribe.
------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine."
Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber.
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Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: May 13 2006 at 13:17
I'm finally to the point where I just want this movie to fail horribly, just so I don't hear any more about it.
------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 13 2006 at 15:03
Sean:
Uh...mmm...you are simply not correct about the timing of the writing of the four apostolic gospels. Every scholar worth their salt - including many who are not Christian, and even the Gnostic scholars like Elaine Pagels and Bart Ehrman - all agree that the Gospel of Mark was written - written, not orally transmitted - by 60 A.D., and that the Gospel of John (the last to be written) was written - not orally transmitted - before 100 A.D. Even among scholars who disagree on particular specifics, this is pretty much established fact. Similarly with the letters (epistles) of Paul, all of which were written between 40 A.D. and 60 A.D.
As an aside, although other gospels appeared shortly thereafter, the first Gnostic gospel did not appear until the late second century, around 150-175 A.D.
Peace.
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Posted By: lastdodobird
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 04:19
zappaholic wrote:
I'm finally to the point where I just want this movie to fail horribly, just so I don't hear any more about it.
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Factoring out all the brouhaha this movie is getting, it should be a pretty good and entertaining film if taken as it is.
Actually, I'm at the point where I want this movie to succeed immensely, just as a slap on the face to everyone who's protesting against this movie.
When, oh when will people figure out that the more you create an uproar about a certain thing, the more it gets publicity, and the more it gets stronger? 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 07:32
Ghandi,
but think about why there are so many controversies >> because scriptures came much too late
As for the alternative or real facts of a prophet's life and what happened exactly during his life >>>> NO ONE REALLY KNOWS >> everything is supputations and Vatican's supputations are severly bent on their own interest
And Gandhi, I was taught that the Apostle made vow of poverty and were of relatively low walks of life >> most of them probably did not write and were too poor
furthermore even if your dates (I read 60 AD in your posts) are correct (which they are not ) this would mean that they would've had to write this when they were around 70 or 80 >>>>When you know that the average life expenctacy around Roman times was of 28, this would make them 200 years-old in comparison to our life expectancy
Get off the brainwashing system and think foer yourself, you shall quickly realize that those ready-made answers are hiding a fact>> nobody knows for sure
I do not deny that there was an illuminated called Jesus that tried to dish out his wisdom and called himself prophet (or had others call him that) and I do not deny Mahomet's Gospell also.
Prophets abound nowadays and arenot anymore credible to me
Maani : scholars worth their salts >> the one you consider are for sure not someone else's!!! Well that greatly depends on what your convisctions are does it not 
no more time for now
Will see if I have more tomorrow or later today
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 09:07
Sean:
Simple dismissal of another person's position is not exactly an acceptable debate technique. You have offered not one shred of support for your claim that the apostolic gospels were not written prior to 100 A.D. I, however, am ready to provide the names of at least 50 major scholars who all agree on this - only a few of whom are connected to the Vatican in any way: indeed, these scholars include Jews, Christians, agnostics and atheists; men and women; Old Testament, New Testament, Gnostic and other experts.
As for "life expectancy," you err here. While it is true that life expectancy was shorter 2000 years ago than it is now, that does not mean that many, many people did not live long, healthy lives: life expectancy is simply an average, not an absolute.
It is you, my friend, who have been "reverse-brainwashed" to disbelieve foundational truths about early Christian history. True, not every single aspect of "orthodox" Christianity is correct vis-a-vis new evidence that comes to light. But, as I noted earlier, the vast majority of scholars - non-Vatican, non-Catholic, broad-based scholars - agree on most of the foundational truths of the orthodox tradition - in this case, specifically the dating of the apostolic gospels.
I do not know who or what you have been studying (since you give no indication). However, it is clearly you who needs to think for yourself, since it is clear that you are simply regurgitating the opinions of a very limited and narrow group of people.
Peace.
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 09:18
Game on!
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2930&KW=gospels - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2930&KW=gospels
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 10:29
Syzygy wrote:
The book has a prose style that makes Jeffrey Archer read like a combination of James Joyce and Tolstoy in comparison.
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Too right. Brown writes like a f**king child. I can't even be bothered to craft a sarcastic witticism about it, it just fills me with so much rage that such a talentless oik can be so bloody successful.
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 10:37
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 10:50
Tony:
Re the link...now why would you want to re-open old wounds? LOL!
Peace.
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Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 12:46
Sean Trane wrote:
but think about why there are so many controversies >> because scriptures came much too late |
What in Sam Hell? There are controversies because people want to be well-known, deceive people for their own gain, or just don't believe. By the 300-400s there were hundreds of gospels. The Church sorted through all of them and picked the ones that they thought were inspired by God. You know the Gospel of Judas? It is simply a gospel that the early Church rejected, but it was buried and has now been found again. I think it's cool that it survived; it's very interesting from a scholarly perspecitve. Or The Da Vinci Code insanity. It's just a warmed-over Gnostic heresy from the early Church.
Sean Trane wrote:
And Gandhi, I was taught that the Apostle made vow of poverty and were of relatively low walks of life >> most of them probably did not write and were too poor |
Luke was not an Apostle, and I don't think Mark was either. Luke was Pharisee, so he knew how to write, and they got a lot of money from people donating stuff once they started the Church; so while they obviously gave to charity and such, they still had money left over to hire a scribe so they might write down the Word of God to better spread it.
furthermore even if your dates (I read 60 AD in your posts) are correct (which they are not ) this would mean that they would've had to write this when they were around 70 or 80 >>>>When you know that the average life expenctacy around Roman times was of 28, this would make them 200 years-old in comparison to our life expectancy |
The reason the life expectancy was low was because a huge amount of people died before they turned 3, and dying at the age of zero really screws with thye average. If a person survived past 3 then a lot of them lived to 40 or 50. Luke was a lot younger than Jesus, and I believe that Mark also came later than the Apostles (but my memory may be off on that) John, who also wrote his Gospel last, was only 14 or so when Jesus died (and he lived an unusually long life). Admitting that the Gospels were written before 100 AD doesn't mean that you have to admit that Jesus is God.
I do not deny that there was an illuminated called Jesus that tried to dish out his wisdom and called himself prophet (or had others call him that) and I do not deny Mahomet's Gospell also. |
Do you mean Mohammed? I'm not going to go there.
And Jesus called himself GOD; that's why the Jews wanted to kill Him. They saw it as blasphemy, and the Pharisees were worried that Jesus calling himself a king and a God would upset the Romans, who would then come in and crush the Jews and ruin all of their plans for a rebellion.
Maani : scholars worth their salts >> the one you consider are for sure not someone else's!!! Well that greatly depends on what your convisctions are does it not |
Atheist scholars say those dates! Did you even read the link that I gave you? Almost everyone in the world says that they were written before 100 AD! It's undeniable. We have fragments from much earlier than 300 AD. There is also the evidence from the Gospels themselves; for example, the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, but Luke, who was writing to the Jews, didn't mention it in his Gospel. If he hadn't been writing before 70 AD he would have mentioned it because it fufilled some things that Jesus said, and it was a very important event to the Jews, so it would have been worth mentioning.
Back to the topic, I must say that Dan Brown is a pretty smart guy. He managed to mask the fact that he can't write by writing about something controversial, so people will ignore his complete lack of talent and focus instead on the tantalizing subject matter. And now he's a millionaire.
------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine."
Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber.
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:10
Ghandi:
Thank you for your continued good info (you might want to tone down the emotion, though! LOL). I would add, for Sean's benefit, re "life expectancy" that Josephus, the earliest scholar of Christianity (c. 37-100 A.D.), states that John lived into his 80s, if not his 90s - and Josephus was physically there to corroborate this.
Finally, you state that by the "300-400s" there were hundreds of gospels. Actually, there were perhaps 150 gospels (as well as perhaps 150-200 other writings) circulating by the time of the Council of Nicea in approx. 325 A.D. As I noted, although there was clearly a "political" aspect of the decision-making of the Council, that was not its primary consideration, and they did not simply "cherry-pick" those gospels that fit some "pre-determined" form of Christianity. Rather, they were acutely aware of which gospels (and other writings, such as the letters of Paul) had been circulating for the longest time among the broadest population, and that is why Mark and Luke were the first ones included.
That Matthew and John were the only other gospels included may or may not reflect the "political" aspect of their decision-making; there is simply no way to know. However, it is clear that, if one starts with Mark and Luke, and reads the Gnostic and other gospels "against" (i.e., next to) them, one can see that there is an enormous divergence of thought and approach re some of the most basic aspects of the Judeo-Christian construct - a departure far too large to represent a mere "interpretation" of Mark and Luke, which is what one might expect if later gospels came out of the apostolic tradition. (By comparison, Matthew, and even John, maintain most of the basic foundations found in Mark and Luke). Rather, the Gnostic and other gospels proffer a completely different set of foundations re knowledge, redemption and salvation - one which not only diverges almost 180 degrees from Mark, Luke and the letters of Paul (i.e., the earliest known writings), but all of which were written - i.e., first created, not simply "re-interpreted" - in 150 A.D. or later.
This does not mean that none of the other gospels or other writings have nothing to teach us, or do not have grains of truth. But they do not represent what the bulk of the earliest Christian writings teach us about Jesus and His ministry - or even what the vast majority of the populace was reading and "following" at the time - even if we have to "read between the lines" of the earliest writings to get a solid idea of the first foundations.
Peace.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 05:37
I do not deny that there was an illuminated called Jesus that tried to dish out his wisdom and called himself prophet (or had others call him that) and I do not deny Mahomet's Gospell also.
Do you mean Mohammed? I'm not going to go there.
No I mean Mahomet >> this is his name >> No one else can be named that, if you are Muslim >> Blasphemy
Mohamed, Muhammad and other variations are the translation or reference name to him when the Muslim want to name someone after him
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 06:14
This film is causing controversy in the Greek Orthodox church now.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 06:26
Ghandi,
let's deal it away !!
You are right and I am wrong!! Happy  ??? Hope you are because I will not go on too much here >> 
controversies have existed for centuries and they will go on >> further new findings will nbot change much to it. Christianity has vast area of voluntarily obscured facts >> this is why Maria Magdalena's role (what this Jesus character was completely asexual) caused so much controversy in the Last Temptation, and going around discussing those intricaties is really not up my interest or wish. I know whatever I was force-fed as a kid and have no wish to know more >> so I will not be drawned into a lenghty debate
Ghandi wrote:
But please don't go to the retarded site that said the Gospels were written in the 4th century, because it'll be wrong. :S >>> RRiiiiiiiiiiight!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your sites are so much more truthfull !!!!! >> see where we are headed here? is a debate really likely going anywhere between us?
Ghandhi Wrote: Back to the topic, I must say that Dan Brown is a pretty smart guy. He managed to mask the fact that he can't write by writing about something controversial, so people will ignore his complete lack of talent and focus instead on the tantalizing subject matter. And now he's a millionaire >> I would agree with you here if you were not dispelling the man talents or other only because the subject IS really bothering you . To attack the man's writing talents would be that you have read at least one other book of his with a non-touchy subject (before having read this one, since you will never be objective of this after this book) . I have not done so , so I would never risk this conclusion!!
You keep your blind faith and defend your "stories", if it makes you happy! Seriously 
Remember two things :
1-History is a succession of lies that everybody agreed to believe (I believe Napoleon said that)
2-The church works for its own interest >> not the truth (orthen maybe ITS truth) >> whatever that may be!!
As Maani says so well
Peace 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 09:34
Sean:
If you wish to simply "agree to disagree," I have no prolbm with that. However, I must make one comment.
In final defense of your position, you say: "The church works for its own interest, not the truth." Even if that is true, you seem to be missing one my (and Ghandi's) main points: that the vast majority of scholars we cite have little or no connection to the church; i.e., they are not simply blindly supporting official church doctrine, but base their conclusions (or theories, if you like) on independent research that has nothing whatsoever to do with what the church does or does not believe or claim.
This is not a debatable point: it is a hard, cold fact. Much as you would like to believe that all scholars (except yours, of course...LOL) are somehow little more than "mouthpieces" for the church, that is simply not the case, and never was.
Peace.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 10:00
^^^^^^^^^
Maani,
If I have not cited anybody who would backing the point I was trying to get across, itis maybe because I have never even looked on the web for such issues and have absolutely no wish too (I reserve Internet time for music purposes and very little else) and I would not even know which site to look in>> with Google it would probably not be too haed to find it, but this would be time consuming and I do not have time for such issues.
Actually to be very honest, I have little curiosity of the stuff one can find on the web, and even less faith in finding much objective infos. Especially regarding religion
I mean no disrespect , and I am sure that you will see that I mean it!
These (all) sites are preaching for their own chapels  (couldn't resist that one, sorry  ) and are not likely to publish facts that are against them or their theories. >> you will not see an opinion in the Prog Archives saying that prog was detrimental to music development, right?
any link you or Ghandi would point out will likely be partisan and all the ones I would give you (IF I was to do so) would be also. >>>> so there is not much point to it
Peace , of course 
Nice to have you back, too 
PS: I have rewritten my review of Hope! I think you will like it
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 11:14
Sean:
Setting aside websites for the moment, what about books? I am talking about scholarly books by a wide variety of men and women, with a wide variety of academic and other backgrounds, and a wide variety of beliefs (and non-beliefs). I have read at least 50-60 books on early Christanity, with perspectives ranging from non-partisan atheist to the narrow "pre-determined" view you ascribe to the Vatican and much of "organized" Christianity; from Jewish kabbalists to evangelical Christians; from experts on the Gnostics to experts on the orthodox tradition. I have read books by well-known scholars, and obscure scholars.
In all my broad-based reading, I have never come across any scholar - respected or otherwise - who has suggested that the apostolic gospels were not written prior to 100 A.D. It is, in fact, one of the few points of early Christianity on which virtually every scholar - from whatever background or belief (or non-belief) - agrees upon.
I would, in fact, be very interested to read a scholar who believes otherwise, so if you can provide a name or two, I would very much appreciate it.
That said, you know that I know you well enough to know that you are never disrespectful, only fiercely "protective" of your opinion. And there is nothing wrong with that - even if your opinion is wrong! LOL.
Peace.
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Posted By: Zoso
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 12:18
Meh, I'm Catholic, and I'm excited to see the movie, knowing that it is
fictional. People need to relax and stop taking these things so
seriously.
-------------
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 12:35
^^^^^
If you keep this up gunslinger, I will also have to draw mine 
I will be forced to look up in the books were I saw evidence of this issue a two decades ago >> and this is why I am backing out a bit , because I HAVE read this quite a while ago - and it made so much sense I must say that I never even doubted it and it has stayed with me ever since, and whenever I mentioned it to aChristians, they actually never rebuffed me or admitedly nooded to the fact.
But to remember exactly where I read this, is most of the problem (aside of the fact that I would fall into the debate I do not really want to engage into, because chances of "converting" you are next to zero  >> proselytism anybody?)
Those four texts (New Testaments if I recall they are called) existed in some way or form for sure before the 4th century, I am sure, but the "melting down" was done in doubtful terms (interpretation etc..) >> Ever wonder why these four guys relate the same facts in the same context and in the same frame of mind as to coincide a little too much, while they had drifted apart after their leader's death....... (Actually only two of them actually witnessed them miracles too, if I remember well. )
The Four testaments where this is the first critcism of the future Islam to be >> the texts were not from the prophet himself >> but from people who had either witnessed (from close or far) or from earsay.
Read you tomorrow 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 13:19
Sean:
The gospels are simply called "gospels"; the "New Testament" is called that because it represents the entire (canonical) "testament" of the Christian faith.
There was little if any "melting down" (if by that you mean re-writing, editing, etc.) of any of the writings that eventually became the "New Testament." Keep in mind that at least two of the gospels (Mark and Luke) had been circulating for over 200 years; thus, the populace would have noticed - and rejected - any obvious "fooling around" with them. The one thing the Council of Nicea did do was to separate the gospels and other writings into chapters and verses; the original gospels, letters, etc. were written as continuous documents, without numbered chapters or verses. Other than this, there was very little amending done, as far as most scholars believe.
As to why three of the four apostolic gospels (Mark, Luke, Matthew) seem to be so similar (and even John relates some of the same incidents, etc.), there are at least two theories about this.
The first is that the Gospel of Mark was used as a "jumping off point" by Luke and Matthew, both of whom would most certainly have seen it, if not had a copy. They then added additional things they remembered individually.
For the other theory, let me give you a hypothetical situation.
Imagine the quarterback of a college football team, and his four closest buddies. These five guys spend two or three years together at college, almost inseparable, sharing lots of time and experiences.
Now fast-forward, say, thirty years, and ask the four friends, individually, to write about the time they spent with their friend the quarterback. What would almost certainly happen is that about 50% of the four accounts would overlap perfectly, another 25% might be the same incidents but remembered in a slightly different order and/or with the words spoken being slightly different, and the other 25% would be incidents or discussions that only one or another of the friends recalled.
This is the second theory of why the four apostolic gospels are so similar: that you had four people recounting incidents and words that occurred thirty years prior, and thus while many of the incidents and words overlap perfectly or near-perfectly, some of the incidents are in a different order and/or Jesus' words are remembered with slight differences, and some of the accounts only occur in one gospel and not another.
In either case, it is not particularly surprising that the gospel accounts overlap as much as they do. Indeed, given the "tightness" of the apostles' relationship, it would be far more remarkable if their gospels had diverged significantly.
That's the best I can do on short notice...LOL. Hope it's helpful.
Peace.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 19:13
There was a film released a few years ago called 'Stigmata' (Gabriel Byrne and Patricia Arquette) that mused on the idea of a gospel that came direct from Jesus.The central idea of the plot was that the Catholic Church were aware of it and tried to surpress or hide its existence because essentially Christ was trying to tell people in it that they didn't need organised religion to worship God.Its not a very good film but the central idea I thought quite interesting.I havn't seen Da Vinci Code yet (or read the book) but it sounds interesting.
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 19:23
Why do we need 4 Gospels anyway? It seems a remarkably self-concious thing for the New Testament compilers to do.....
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 21:09
My opinon. IT IS A BOOK!
It is a fictional book! That simple! I would go into a long rant but it will probably get me in a lot of trouble.
All I know is....Dan Brown must look at all this talk and laugh his way to the bank.
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 21:21
Richard:
Actually, Stigmata is pretty darn good movie (I own a copy.) And you're right: the premise included that a new gospel had been found (not necessarily written by Jesus, I believe) that suggested that the entire "organized" capital C Church was unnecessary, and the Vatican tried to suppress it. Can't say I disagree...
Peace.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 21:23
I liked Stigmata too. And since we're on the subject of controversial Cristian movies, anyone seen Bookdock Saints? I like that movie a lot. It's got quite a following at my school.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 22:32
Stonebeard:
That's a new one on me; I'll try to find it. A couple of my other favorite "Christian Dramas" are "Bless The Child" (with a preternaturally brilliant performance by 8-year-old Holliston Coleman, and excellent performances by Kim Basinger and Rufus Sewell) and the "Prophecy" series, with Christopher Walken as Gabriel. [N.B. In the first Prophecy film, Lucifer is played - quite neatly - by a young Viggo Mortensen.]
Peace.
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 04:12
^ one of my favorites. Virginia Madsen, Walken, Viggo, Amanda "Honeybunny" Plummer, Adam Goldberg (one of my favorite nerds, via Dazed and Confused)...
...but back on topic, it seems strange to me that DVC would cause such a controversy, as so very many films have used 'creative variations' on christian mythology- in the horror genre alone, I can think of a dozen right off the top of my head.
Then again, DVC is so popular that it might be a good time for anyone with a related agenda to http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/060522fa_fact - jump on the bandwagon ...
BTW Dan Brown...Umberto Eco called and he wants his idea back, if you're done translating it for young adult readers, that is. 
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 05:04
Dear God are you on the web ???
I AM THE WEB !!!
------------- Billy Connolly
Dream Theater
Terry Gilliam
Hagen Quartet
Jethro Tull
Mike Keneally
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 05:56
Velvetclown wrote:
I AM THE WEB !!! |
Is that a quote from The Matrix or the Marillion website?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 06:33
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4985370.stm -
Here's one good thing that the film has done - united Christians and Muslims with a common enemy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4985370.stm
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 15:32
oliverstoned wrote:
All i can tell you is i'm tired to see everybody do the same and read the same book. |
Same here
------------- Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 18:08
James Lee wrote:
Then again, DVC is so popular that it might be a good time for anyone with a related agenda to http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/060522fa_fact - jump on the bandwagon ...
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Thanks for that article James,an interesting read.
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Posted By: Minkia
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 19:01
Maani, you come across as though in a past life you were a Knight Templar, judging by your reaction to my post! Woah! Do I detect some slight biblical vehemence in your quasi-sermon-like reaction to my post??
Has it ever occurred to you that even non-believers have their own opinions, though these may sometime come across as being rather caustic or iconoclastic or uninformed?
You shouldn't take it so personal as it's only my opinion, after all.
Still...to quote Roger Waters '..the sheep are lost and the shepherd will never come back...'. How true.
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 19:36
Minkia:
Non-believers are certainly entitled to their opinions - as is everyeone else. However, when you say, "The fact of the matter is that Jesus shagged Mary Magdalene...," you are prima facie stating it as a fact - not an opinion. It was your "certainty" about your opinion - with absolutely not one shred of scholarly support - that caused my "quasi-sermon-like reaction" to your post.
An "opinion" is still expected to be based on at least minimal evidentiary or other support. You offer little or none. My response was a way of providing a "primer" on the history of early Christianity - as accepted by the vast majority of scholars, whether Jewish, Christian, Gnostic, atheist, or other. Again, this does not mean that everything that any particular scholar, or even a group of scholars, agree on is 100% accurate. It simply means that these scholars - who have spent far more time studying and researching this stuff than either of us - have independently come to similar conclusions about certain aspects of early Christianity.
My "opinion" is based on everything I have read, seen, etc. And my reading etc. has been extremely broad over a period of more than 20 years - including many of the "alternative theories" of early Christianity. That does not make my opinion "right"; but it does mean that it is supported by a wealth of varied scholarly information.
Peace.
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 02:09
(plus, there's almost no hard evidence that Jesus existed- and none at all concerning the Magdalene- so any details of his personal life should be regarded as pure speculation...)
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 04:58
James Lee wrote:
(plus, there's almost no hard evidence that Jesus existed- and none at all concerning the Magdalene- so any details of his personal life should be regarded as pure speculation...) |
Good point James!!
One of the most puzzling thing about the gospels and testaments >> no women around
It has been many times said and proved that women were flocking around the prophet and that they played an active life around him and actually steered him in his convictions.
Yet outside the Virgin mary (aaahh!! the immaculate conception thing) and this Maria Magdalena all feminine traces have been kindly erased from the scriptures >< revisionim if you ask me.
Maani, I have viewed the previous thread RL pointed to . will not give the link la second time for you are right not to reopen wounds RL was an atheist cornered in a "Roman circus game" pitted against a batch of fierceful christian lions and he came out unscathed >> just a like poke or pique, here
Anyway:
I do not make yet a difference between gospels and those Four testaments, and I am afraid the subtelties will be lost on me, anyway. But the chruch spent centuries discussing and changing comas to the given text >> these Vatican guys were organizing congresses (  ) and burning the ones threatening the changes!
altering texts that were confidential (copies were handmade and personally ordered along the wishes of the buyers >> full abbeys thrived on this business) was therefore quite easy, since nobody had the text and hardly anyone knew how to read!! Carolus Magnus at the end of the 8th century is the one that made schooling mandatory for kids and we know that this was only for a few priviledged youths anyway, since children were kept to do chores in lower circles.
Peace
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 05:21
Tony R wrote:
Why do we need 4 Gospels anyway? It seems a remarkably self-concious thing for the New Testament compilers to do.....
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
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 10:52
Sean:
Hmmm....no women? Well, let's set aside that, historically - and not just vis-a-vis the capital C Church - women were far less often mentioned in historical recountings in any case. This would have been true even if the capital C Church had not engaged in some "revisionism" re mentions and roles of women in Jesus' time. However, even so, there is Mary Magdalene, of course, and Jesus' mother, Mary. And there were Elizabeth, Anna, Martha, Sapphira, Dorcas, Lydia, Priscilla, Phebe, Drusilla and Bernice, and Eunice and Lois, just to name a few. Simply because we know only bits of their stories does not mean that they did not play important roles. (And, of course, the Old Testament includes numerous women in major roles: Eve, Sarah, Lot's wife, Rebekah, Rachel, Leah, Tamar, Zipporah, Miriam, Rahab, Ruth, Rizpah, Jezebel, and, of course, Esther, just to name a few.)
As for "no hard evidence that Jesus existed," that is simply silly: one could then claim that not only did no one in the Bible (Old or New Testaments) exist, but also that dozens of historical figures didn't exist either, from Genghis Khan to Marco Polo.
Beginning with Josephus in the late first century, there are dozens of actual, physical texts from the end of the first century forward that mention Jesus and His ministry, and some even mention His crucifixion and alleged resurrection. And there is absolute agreement in scholarly circles (including Jews, Christians, Gnostics, atheists et al) that, at very least, the Gospel of Mark is an authentic document, written around 60 A.D.
Thus, there is no question whatsoever that Jesus existed, even if people of various faiths (as well as scholars of all stripes) continue to debate whether He was a teacher, a rabbi, a prophet, or the literal "son of God," who was crucified and resurrected.
Peace.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 11:18
maani wrote:
Sean:
Hmmm....no women? Well, let's set aside that, historically - and not just vis-a-vis the capital C Church - women were far less often mentioned in historical recountings in any case. This would have been true even if the capital C Church had not engaged in some "revisionism" re mentions and roles of women in Jesus' time. However, even so, there is Mary Magdalene, of course, and Jesus' mother, Mary. And there were Elizabeth, Anna, Martha, Sapphira, Dorcas, Lydia, Priscilla, Phebe, Drusilla and Bernice, and Eunice and Lois, just to name a few. Simply because we know only bits of their stories does not mean that they did not play important roles. (And, of course, the Old Testament includes numerous women in major roles: Eve, Sarah, Lot's wife, Rebekah, Rachel, Leah, Tamar, Zipporah, Miriam, Rahab, Ruth, Rizpah, Jezebel, and, of course, Esther, just to name a few.)
As for "no hard evidence that Jesus existed," that is simply silly: one could then claim that not only did no one in the Bible (Old or New Testaments) exist, but also that dozens of historical figures didn't exist either, from Genghis Khan to Marco Polo.
Beginning with Josephus in the late first century, there are dozens of actual, physical texts from the end of the first century forward that mention Jesus and His ministry, and some even mention His crucifixion and alleged resurrection. And there is absolute agreement in scholarly circles (including Jews, Christians, Gnostics, atheists et al) that, at very least, the Gospel of Mark is an authentic document, written around 60 A.D.
Thus, there is no question whatsoever that Jesus existed, even if people of various faiths (as well as scholars of all stripes) continue to debate whether He was a teacher, a rabbi, a prophet, or the literal "son of God," who was crucified and resurrected.
Peace. |
I think you meant the second part of your answer (bold characters) to somebody else, because I do not doubt of Jesus's existence or even thathe was a prophet! 
To come back at women, In primitive nomad times, the god was most of the times female, and once man started settling down and raising farmanimals, this started changing dramatically, why?
Heard this two weeks ago on Belgian state radio , but do not remember the name of the University doctor speaking:
Because the female was giving birth and therefore creating life and were considered deities in ways. Once the farmers raising their cattle observed that the cycle of life needed a male to fecond the female >> this was news to them before (according to him, this is the only plausible explanation was that the link of putting the seeds only became clear top mankind as it started cattle raising and the first agricultural fields). Than religion started becoming more of a male bastion/thing, but polytheism often had both types of god. But often the high priest was male and had its female servers >> which were often highlighted for the cult going wrong and the gods being angry at mankind. So gradually Women were phased out until Monotheism came in the fold of Judaism >> God was male, period!!
Myself speaking , now:
Beit in any of three religions from the book, the woman has been portayed as the one keeping the "hero" from the right path (the faith mostly) etc... and decided that in some case as Christianity did that they finally had a soul somewhere in the low medieval times >> just like they had discussion to see in Amerindians and Africans also had souls. >> let you draw the conclusion on this one 
I noticed you solidly avoid the other point in my post about the diffusion of the scriptures and changing them, must I think you are allowing me this? 
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 12:17
All:
So after all the fuss and bother and controversy, it appears that the film is simply not very good! It was roundly panned at Cannes, as well as by critics stateside. At Cannes, many people apparently not only did not applaud at the end, but hissed and booed! And we're not talking about Christians or others who have "problems" with the film: we're simply talking about a general audience.
Peace.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/17/da.vinci/index.html - http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/17/da.vinci/index.html
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 12:23
^^^^^^^^^
I was never a fan of Ron Howard and this dates back to his cheesy character of Ritchie Cunningham in Happy Days.
I always found his movies cheesy (especially Cocoon and Splash)
But this was to be expected, the worse the movie was, the more noise it needed
A good movie gets noted right away by word of mouth.
I hope this sore excuse of a movie actually loses a fortune (not likely , though  )
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 12:28
Don't forget Cocoon 2 and Spash 2!
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 
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 18:05
Sean Trane wrote:
^^^^^^^^^
I was never a fan of Ron Howard and this dates back to his cheesy character of Ritchie Cunningham in Happy Days.
I always found his movies cheesy (especially Cocoon and Splash)
But this was to be expected, the worse the movie was, the more noise it needed
A good movie gets noted right away by word of mouth.
I hope this sore excuse of a movie actually loses a fortune (not likely , though  ) |
I believe Fonzy to have been a Knights Templar (possibly high-ranking due to his almost magical manipulation of soda machines). Joanie & Ralph Malph are another matter, clearly planted by anti-Zionists to cause unrest on the show...This also explains Ron Howard's later fascination with the Da Vinci theory/conspiracy which led up to this movie. Anyone know who actually financed this masterpiece?
Nothing wrong with Splash if taken at face value. Mermaids pop up in New York harbor every day (although not usually alive)...Cocoon was a bit far-fetched though. Come on, who could believe that Wilford Brimley & Hume Cronyn could do convincing cannonballs into that pool? Definitely the work of stunt doubles...
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 18:13
maani wrote:
As for "no hard evidence that Jesus existed," that is simply silly: one could then claim that not only did no one in the Bible (Old or New Testaments) exist, but also that dozens of historical figures didn't exist either, from Genghis Khan to Marco Polo.
Beginning with Josephus in the late first century, there are dozens of actual, physical texts from the end of the first century forward that mention Jesus and His ministry, and some even mention His crucifixion and alleged resurrection. And there is absolute agreement in scholarly circles (including Jews, Christians, Gnostics, atheists et al) that, at very least, the Gospel of Mark is an authentic document, written around 60 A.D.
Thus, there is no question whatsoever that Jesus existed, even if people of various faiths (as well as scholars of all stripes) continue to debate whether He was a teacher, a rabbi, a prophet, or the literal "son of God," who was crucified and resurrected.
Peace. |
maani- You misunderstand my assertion- for one thing, I included the modifier "almost" with Tacitus, Pliny, and Josephus explicitly in mind. I am drawing a distinction between "hard evidence" and verbal communication and written reports- which of course are always subject to an element of mistake, translation, and misinterpretation (for example, there's plenty of reason to suspect Jesus was hanged rather than crucified if one takes the early accounts at face value...a devastating blow to the iconogrphy of Christianity if true- plus, how does one identify the Trinity with a noose? ).
Undoubtedly, much of our history rests on such written reports, but that recommends a healthy critical eye on history (in contrast to the pratice of marginalizing pieces of conflicting evidence because it does not support the majority of accepted evidence).
Plus, I was defending your position!  I suppose I could have said "with the little we actually know about Jesus, assuming that he had sex with the Magdalene is like declaring it a known fact that Telemachus had an incestual relationship with Penelope".
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 18:25
James Lee wrote:
maani wrote:
As for "no hard evidence that Jesus existed," that is simply silly: one could then claim that not only did no one in the Bible (Old or New Testaments) exist, but also that dozens of historical figures didn't exist either, from Genghis Khan to Marco Polo.
Beginning with Josephus in the late first century, there are dozens of actual, physical texts from the end of the first century forward that mention Jesus and His ministry, and some even mention His crucifixion and alleged resurrection. And there is absolute agreement in scholarly circles (including Jews, Christians, Gnostics, atheists et al) that, at very least, the Gospel of Mark is an authentic document, written around 60 A.D.
Thus, there is no question whatsoever that Jesus existed, even if people of various faiths (as well as scholars of all stripes) continue to debate whether He was a teacher, a rabbi, a prophet, or the literal "son of God," who was crucified and resurrected.
Peace. |
maani- You misunderstand my assertion- for one thing, I included the modifier "almost" with Tacitus, Pliny, and Josephus explicitly in mind. I am drawing a distinction between "hard evidence" and verbal communication and written reports- which of course are always subject to an element of mistake, translation, and misinterpretation (for example, there's plenty of reason to suspect Jesus was hanged rather than crucified if one takes the early accounts at face value...a devastating blow to the iconogrphy of Christianity if true- plus, how does one identify the Trinity with a noose? ).
Undoubtedly, much of our history rests on such written reports, but that recommends a healthy critical eye on history (in contrast to the pratice of marginalizing pieces of conflicting evidence because it does not support the majority of accepted evidence).
Plus, I was defending your position!  I suppose I could have said "with the little we actually know about Jesus, assuming that he had sex with the Magdalene is like declaring it a known fact that Telemachus had an incestual relationship with Penelope".
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Can't we all just get along (even the heathens, unbelievers & gnostics among us)?
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Posted By: marktheshark
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 21:38
Well, the reviews so far are pretty bad. Here's the Rotten Tomatoes link:
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/da_vinci_code/ - Da Vinci Code Reviews
I guess the fundamentalists can relax a little.
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Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 22:22
Posted By: marktheshark
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 22:27
The Wizard wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
Well, the reviews so far are pretty bad. Here's the Rotten Tomatoes link: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/da_vinci_code/ - Da Vinci Code Reviews I guess the fundamentalists can relax a little. |
Damn I'm dissapointed. [IMG]height=17 alt=Cry src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> |
Yeah, poor Ron. He usually hits a home run but I guess Dan Brown doesn't translate well to screen.
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 23:22
James:
Forgive me for missing your point. I stand (actually, sit...) corrected.
Wolf:
We are getting along! You should see us when we don't!! LOL.
Peace.
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