CD players
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22864
Printed Date: November 26 2024 at 14:59
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: CD players
Posted By: oliverstoned
Subject: CD players
Date Posted: May 05 2006 at 09:06
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Following some member's request, here's a topic about good, but still affordable integrated CD players, with a few advices to upgrade it.
In this price range, the best brands are the english ones: You can go for any player from the following brands: Nad, Rotel, Creek, Rega, Naim, Arcam... Entry level products: The smallest budget, Nad, "the Rega3" of CD. Very musical and natural: 
Better performances than Nad : Rotel 
Mid level products: Refined and natural: Creek 
Very smooth and analog: Rega planet (with its original drawer design) 
Dynamic, with much matter and soft highs: Naim CD5 Perfect for rock, slim and nice design, features an original manual steel drawer. 
Arcam: Neutral and dynamic (CD33) 
To go further: Linn Ikemi 
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Replies:
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: May 05 2006 at 14:42
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some very interesting machines, oliver - many thanks for the advice! -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 05 2006 at 15:15
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That's a pleasure, mystic!
Upgrade advices to come! |
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: May 05 2006 at 21:45
| I would also mention the Linn Genki as well. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 10:37
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Advices to upgrade your CD player:
Vibration cancelling: -Put your CD on a stable and steady support. -Use quality vibration cancelling accesories below the player, such as "Golden sound" ceramic cones. -Put your CD perfectly horizontal in the two dimensions, using a plumb level. If needed, compensate lack of horizontality with pieces of hard wood, or better, thin plate metal piece(s) (such as coins i.e) that yout put below the cones until it's perfectly horizontal. -If the upper side of the player is plate, put a heavy object on it to cancel vibes (such as a granite piece). -If the upper side of the player is plate, you can glue some self adhesive bitumen plates (used for cancelling vibes in car tuning) inside the player on the upper side and the lateral side. Power optimization: -Respect electric phase. -Avoid multiplugs. -Use a good power cable. -Separate your CD from the rest of the system. -Use simple, double or triple power filtering (will be developped later). |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 22 2006 at 11:12
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Oliver S
Can your advice be adapted for my Sony CD Discman???
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: May 22 2006 at 11:16
I wonder if Mike en Regalia will be able to resist the temptation to post in this thread. 
------------- Pure Brilliance: 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 22 2006 at 11:24
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I wonder where I put my socks.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 22 2006 at 11:38
 I can resist. It makes no sense for me to invade a thread about audiophile technology - let the fans of the technology be among themselves. I think I have to practice what I preach - and I'm always saying that you should post within the context of the thread topic whenever possible. So if the topic is "What is the best CD player", it makes no sense to spoil the thread by posting "computer drives can play CDs just as well as CD players".The question is: can Olivier resist to post a reply to this post? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Empathy wrote:Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 07:30
You can resist, yet you don't (obviously, since you posted), while Oliver so far has. Now let the "fans of the technology" post...There are several reasons why PC (and Mac) cd drives are inferior for music reproduction vs dedicated music cd drives, not least of which is their dependence on software. Home audio drives also depend on "programming" (software), but it's generally of higher/more consistent quality & it's integrated, meaning that users generally can't futz with it. When's the last time you heard someone taking their cd player to the shop to be reprogrammed or for the software to be reinstalled? Or someone complain that their new cd player won't "play with" the rest of their sound system? That's the ultimate quality control: Remove user access...!
PC manufacturers also tend to use "grey market" or the cheapest possible parts for components such as cd drives, which is why there's a relatively high failure rate for these parts (I know, I work in that industry)...Sound cards also play a major part in the ultimate fidelity of the PC playback. Again, remove user access...
Enough about EnRegalia's thread detour...Not sure Oliverstoned what you meant by "integrated" cd player. You mean integrated transport? You won't find units with separate transport mechanisms unless you're ready to shell out some serious coin...Denon makes some nice/affordable units (DCM-370, ). For ultra-cheap models with reasonable performance, check out Pioneer & Technics. For ultra high-end folks, check out a company called Wadia (they actually use proprietary algorithms to actually upsample the Red Book signal at a 768 kHz sampling rate (at 24 bit resolution) & something called Clocklink to eliminate transport jitter...
A couple of points not mentioned so far: What will you be playing back, just stereo sources or also multi-channel content? Consider whether the player is DVD-Audio (DVD-A) capable, which will significantly increase the price tag although some $200-$300 models are out there, or SACD. Is Dolby Digital important to you? If so, consider a good DVD player with onboard decoding...There are some "universal" players out now that can handle most/all of these...
Are you playing back MP3, Ogg/Vorbis, WAV or other compressed audio formats? It really shouldn't add much or anything to the price, but it's amazing how incompatible some players are with some of these formats. For instance, I favor variable bit-rate (VBR) MP3 at 192kbps, a good trade-off between space & quality. At least one of my players doesn't "like" this format, although it will play fixed-rate MP3's...Just some more food for thought...
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 07:49
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"You won't find units with separate transport mechanisms unless you're ready to shell out some serious coin..."
That's what i own, and it goes further than any integrated players up. And yes, it costs some serious coins, my friend... My digital setup: -Drive Sonic frontiers SFT-1 (it's the device up) 
-Converter Goldmund Mimesis 14 
( And i plain to upgrade to a more musical converter "Brinkmann Zenith III") My digital cable, Nordost: 
And yeah Wadia's not bad, using excellent Teac VRDS modified transports. PS: Forget multi channel. There's nothing like classic stereo -or even mono- but you can go further with a good subwoofer -at least 38cm to make real extreme low-. My own system is made with a pair of bookshelf on good feet and with a sub. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 08:28
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I'm still resisting, wolf. I did post, but not in the way that I usually do in response to oliverstoned, and which Empathy was referring to. So in a way - I'm still not posting.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 08:32
| Keep on like that! you make progress. Let's sign a non-agression pact! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 08:35
I have no problem with that! Let's agree to only argue about analog vs. digital/computer in threads that have a compatible topic. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 08:44
| That's fine! |
Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 18:17
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Sweet...I'm assuming you're operating in Europe? Nice setup, looks very heavy...I haven't gotten into the multi-channel music formats (DVD-A and/or SACD) personally, at least not yet, but I hear some of it's fantastic. I have heard various demos...Very dependent on the production of the source material though. Some producers not yet familiar with it & still experimenting tend to overemphasize certain channels,especially the surrounds, such that it no longer sounds natural...
You should keep an open mind to multi-channel music though...The concert dvd's that I play back through my video system (recorded in DD 5.1, I'm playing back via 5 full-range speakers through a DD7.1-capable processor, plus 2 side-firing surrounds & a 12-inch Velodyne sub) sound great. Just finished watching The Flower Kings' "Meet The Flower Kings" last night...Even playing back stereo cd's & using the Dolby Pro Logic II Music mode, or the DTS Neo:6 mode, it really adds to the music's spaciousness on most material (especially acoustic recordings). My processor allows separate adjustment of surround parameters such as separate speaker distance setting for each speaker (incl sub), liveness, delay time, separate level adjustment in 0.1db increments for each speaker, etc...Next up is to expand my setup to true 7.1...
I use a separate music-only setup for critical music listening. That's still stereo-only, although I'm running 2 pairs of main full-range speakers driven by a NAD power amp & pre-amp (150w/channel). I've got a Denon cd player but looking to upgrade soon (hopefully), maybe to a Meridian unit (the 588 is a possibility)...I'm also using a separate 30-band 1/3 octave Alesis EQ & an old Carver Sonic Holography processor (got this for about 100 bucks way back, it adds "liveness" & depth to the sound similar to an aural exciter). Also a separate Nakamichi AM/FM tuner & an old Nakamichi Dragon tape deck (it's a beast but I can't part with it)...Also inherited a couple of old real-to-real tape decks from my father at some point, one of them's hooked up & working (a 1/4 inch stereo Teac model), although I haven't used it recently. The Sony's in a closet somewhere...
 Hey, no arguing with EnRegalia without me...Not sure who you're trading arguments with anyway since he's still not posting in this thread...
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 18:31
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^ that's right - I'M NOT POSTING!
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 18:49
^^Thought I heard something...Nah...Must've been the wind...
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 21:53
Oops, forgot to post the details of my primary stereo speakers. They're a pair of Counterpoint Clearfield speakers (I believe that sadly they're now out of business). Got a killer deal on them (1/2 price) about 6 years ago...They're an incredible piece of engineering & probably will last me a lifetime, the interior of the cabinet is built much like an airplane wing w/similar reinforcements & bracing. It's never even broken a sweat. And no need for a subwoofer, these babies are almost ruler-flat down to 20 hz...The other pair is a set of medium-sized Paradigms, just to sonically fill out the space really...
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 24 2006 at 16:33
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Nothing is better than a good stereo.
I've heard demonstrations with 5 excellent BW speakers giving ridiculous results...Shady imaging, poor dynamic, not musical, whereas the speakers are excellent and two well driven give far superior results. And forget processor, sell it back and buy yourself a good preamp/amp! (The CD images i displayed up were not from mine but took from the net.) I don't use processor myslef, i'm against it. |
Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: May 24 2006 at 19:08
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Hmmm...To be honest, I'm definitely leaning towards multi-channel music in the near future. Like I said, the demos I've heard have been astounding, it mostly rides on the decoding, steering logic (of the decoder/processor) & the mastering of the source material, plus proper setup of the listening environment.
Most demos tend to be done using acoustic material, and with good reason. Most surround modes tend to sound more natural with wood & woodwind instruments. Certain vocals can also benefit...I listened to Friday Night In San Francisco w/McLaughlin, deLucia & Di Meola one time for about 2 hours straight (I guess I played it all the way through a few times) in an upscale electronics store near me, on a system w/7 perfectly balanced Mirage speakers, driven by a 250-watt x 5 channel Parasound Halo amp, complemented by a 2nd Halo stereo amp (for 7 channels total), plus a Sunfire True subwoofer (2,700 watts, 116db SPL, basically flat down to 16hz).
At the heart of the setup was the Meridian G68 surround sound processor. Even though the cd was mastered in stereo, the Meridian's surround modes made it sound as though it was mastered in 7 channels...I can honestly say that I've never heard anything better, closed my eyes & I was at the live show...
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 02:57
So you have not heard tubes yet!
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 07:05
I prefer not to "hear" tubes...I know that many audiophiles swear by tube equipment but I'm not one of them...To me, an amplifier needs to be neutral, its job is to take a signal & multiply it without adding anything to the original. Tube fans like the "warmth", which to me is another form of distortion. Also have issues with the premium price tag of tube equipment & reliability (ie, periodically replacing tubes).
The reason why tubes are still largely preferred for guitar amps is not for the clean power, but due to the way tube distortion breaks up & again that warm sound. I'm not looking for either one in my home audio amplifier...I want it to reproduce a recording as cleanly as possible with nothing new added to that signal...
And yes, I have heard some high-end tube equipment (at the same store where I auditioned the Meridian stuff), also spent some time with some of the staff discussing the pros & cons of various technologies...Some of them also swore by tube amps, some didn't...Everyone's got their preferences...
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 08:59
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"an amplifier needs to be neutral, its job is to take a signal & multiply it without adding anything to the original. Tube fans like the "warmth", which to me is another form of distortion. Also have issues with the premium price tag of tube equipment & reliability (ie, periodically replacing tubes)."
There you have never heard what a well driven tube amp can makes; good tube is perfectly neutral and goes far better in the highs than any solid state. It has nothing to do with any "extra warmth". A 20 000€ Cello Reference II (top solidstate) can't even compete with a 1000€ Jolida in term of musicality -and so pleasure and emotion- and you'll hear things in the highs that you'll never hear with ANY solidstate. Solid state has its quality in the low, babies like these Goldmund 9.4 ones are better in the low (quicker, more dynamic and impact) than any tube amp. 
So the answer is biamplification with top solidstate in the low and top tube in the highs. I know some solidstates ones which also work nice in the highs. But when you put a good tube (-and well driven/powered/filtered/wired, etc..) amp besides, there's no comparison. Solidstate distors less than tube on the paper, but actually it's the contrary. It's extremely harsh and makes ham rape with highs when you compare. (it can be explained by the pair/unpair's harmonics theory). You quoted Parasound, yes it's not bad, but put a Jolida or a CJ besides and you'll understand...every guy who tried was convinced. So the royal way is the bi-amp with tubes in the highs and good solid state in the low. There's no rule concerning preamps which can be as well: tube, transistor or hybrid. The best preamp in the world may be currently a solid state one, the "Mark Levinson 32 reference". BUT, if you have to have only one integrated amp, it must be TUBE. The cheap combination is a Jolida in integrated mode with a 38 cm sub (feat a good 200W solistate for bottom low/extreme low).The sub has the surprising advantage to enhance highs as well as low, image, dynamic. To conclude: TUBES RULES, one time for all!! 
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Posted By: wolf0621
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 18:36
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An article supporting the opinions you're expressing:
http://www.soundstage.com/noisy04.htm -
http://www.soundstage.com/noisy04.htm (from 1996)
See here re: the audible & measurable differences between tube & solid state gear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound
Ultimately, the best gauge to compare any audio equipment's relative sound is via true double-blind tests, where neither the judges or the testers know or can identify which gear is which, and what's playing at any point in time, or at least a single-blind approach with the tester's ability to switch components but not able to directly identify either one...Here's some interesting data:
http://www.epinions.com/content_3726614660 - http://www.epinions.com/content_3726614660 (this is relative to guitar amps but can also be applied to home audio components as well...)
Also, see here:
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/2002/2/2002_2_28.shtml - http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/it/2002/2/2002_2_28.shtml
Most of the truly scientifically-conducted (single or double-blind) tests that I've read about that directly compared tube amps to solid state either concluded that there was no statistically significant indication that the testers could consistently identify the components correctly, or that the test results were inconclusive (ie within the margins of chance or guessing)...Now that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't hear the difference. After all, sound is very subjective...
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 02:09
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Dont need blind tests...just try.
Indeed, Wikipedia describes well tube's sound. More matter, more air, more precense, it's far beyond in the highs (i began to love violin as soon as i get my tube amp). But solidstate technology has its qualities, in the low/extreme low and in preamplification. Many combinations are possible, as explains your soundstage article (hybrid preamp, hybrid integrated amp). BTW, here's a nice cheap musical french hybrid integrated amp: Kora explorer 90SI 
But if you want musicality, tube is needed in the highs. And if you have to have only one amp, it must be tube or hybrid. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 08:28
Wait a second ... forgot that I'm not supposed to be posting here. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 08:47
| Yes, so keep on! |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 08:55
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And i even not alluded to the fact that your ideal system is based on a (cheap) digital source!
(cheap) digital source + pure solidstate amplification can't give a musical result. Digital harshness + solidstate harshness is too much to stand! |