i notice there is a section in prog archives labelled "kraut rock", describing mainly german avant-garde bands of the 70's. i am english but the question i have to ask is in today's "politically correct" society is:  are there any german members who are offended by this term?  do they or anybody for that matter consider it derogatory or racist in the context of a descriptive term for a music genre or whatever? if i used the term at work in a derogatory sense i would face the sack, or at worst find myself in court. if i was german i would be offended by the term however it was used. the terms "brit pop" and "italian prog" sound fine but i doubt if any americans would be very happy with the term "yank rock" if it existed, or i would not be happy with the term "limey rock" if that existed! how do any of our german members feel about this? should the "kraut rock" section in prog archive be re-labelled "deutsche rock"?

below is a definition of the term from wikipedia;

"since world war 2, Kraut has, in the English language, come to be used as a derogatory term for a German. This is probably based on sauerkraut, which was very popular in german cuisine at that time. The stereotype of the sauerkraut-eating German dates back to long before this time, though, as can for example be seen in jules verne's depiction of the evil German industrialist Schultz as an avid sauerkraut eater in "the five hundred million of the begum".."

on the other hand, though...

"However, because much of the music produced by these bands has since come to be very highly regarded, the term "krautrock" is now generally seen as an accolade rather than an insult."

...anybody agree with that??

Strangely enough I was investigating the Krautrock section last night and I had the same thoughts. I thought it was a bit insulting to German people but after reading BaldFriede´s comments it seems to be OK.

I was listening to the various tracks listed therre and really loved Ashra, Walkin in the desert I think was the name of the song. I will definately check out more of this band!

I see it in the same way that some subgroup of society adopts a derogatory name in a sense of irony and turns it into a badge of honor, like "nerds" or "geeks".

"Politically correct" is another such term.  It was invented by right-wingers to insult the left, but the left adopted it with pride anyway.

I enjoyed Ashra because of that far away Floydish type of guitar sound. I´m totally new to this genre of music, I love prog with guitar solos here and there in a song. What band has that?(from Krautrock) Also what album by Ashra is a must have?

Anyone?

mystic fred wrote: the terms "brit pop" and "italian prog" sound fine but i doubt if any americans would be very happy with the term "yank rock" if it existed...

Bruce Springsteen, Tom Petty, John Mellencamp = "yank rock"!

Bob Dylan = genious

Vibrationbaby wrote: I`ve got an original pressing of Grobschnitt`s first album and it says krautrock right on both sides of the record label ! It`s a term which has been used since the days of Amon Duul. Why should there be any excitement now. Also,  I think this topic came up in the forums a while back and everyone seemed to be OK with it. Even when I`ve been in Germany I heard the term used many times. Baldfriede doesn`t seem to be offended.

And I have a question here.

I heard several times Grobschnitt refered to as Kraurock. I have their first album, Rockpommel's Land, and Illegal. I really like all of them (maybe Illegal is slightly weaker than the rest). Do they really belong to Kraut-rock???? Their music does not sound to me like Kraut (Can, Faust, Amon Dull II, Dzyan etc etc) at all. 

Eugene, I agree with you. They do belong more to the Symphonic Prog genre then bands like Can, Faust etc.

Dr.Know - try Kraan - Andy Nogger, great album !

Vibrationbaby wrote: Well, not really. You have a point there. Depends on how you want to define krautrock. I think they are referred to as a krautrock band simply because they were from Germany same goes for bands like Eloy or Triumvirat. I certainly wouldn`t recommend them to someone who is into the stuff you mentioned or a few others I can think of. Their music did become somewhat more simplified after EROC left. If you haven`t checked out Solar Music Live yet it should appeal to you. Progarchives, you`ll notice, appropriately categorizes them under symphonic prog.

Thanks. That's what I was guessing. And yes, Solar Music must be great from what I've heard - it's on my wish list, as well as two other studio albums by Grobschnitt.

Well, here's a topic that will always prompt me from my usual lurking mode...

Seems to me that Krautrock obviously differed from the more Anglo-influenced German progressive bands of the '70s by their much more subversive attitude towards music. As much as I love the guys from Novalis, Wallenstein, Grobschnitt etc, they never showed quite the same dangerous originality as (among others) classic Can. And it says a lot about the range of the genre that even the vast, nebulous soundscapes of early Tangerine Dream can be considered 'rock' in the Krautrock manner.

Speaking personally, I'm proud to call myself a veteran Krautrocker whenever asked that banal party icebreaking question, "so, what sort of music do you listen to?"

So what bands might be considered the quintessential Krautrock experience? My votes go to Can, Neu! (obviously a personal favorite!), Faust (who you'll recall actually named the opening track on their fourth album "Krautrock"; the tag didn't seem to bother them at all); early (repeat: early) Kraftwerk and TD, Cluster, and Amon Duul...I'm embarassed to admit I only heard Duul for the first time less than a year ago: Tanz der Lemmings, to be precise, and I'm still trying to find my socks after they were blown clean off my feet.

Anyone else here familiar with the name Gunter Schickert, and the album "Uberfallig"? I don't remember seeing it on the Prog Archives site; if not it ought to be. All the text is in hieroglyphic German calligraphy so I don't know a thing about him, except that the music is atmospheric TD / Klaus Schulze sequencer patterns, but done entire with guitars and percussion...

back to my hibernation...

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ultimathule/krautrockers.html - http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ultimathule/krautrockers.html

this site can be damaging to your wallet! I only wish I would have picked up the original book when I had the chance.

Could someone make a Krautrock (bands/albums) top 10???

NaturalScience wrote: mystic fred wrote: ...but i doubt if any americans would be very happy with the term "yank rock" if it existed... Do the British (or English) think calling an American "yankee" is derogatory?  I couldn't care less if I was called this.  What is funny actually (don't know if a lot of Brits know this), is that "yankee" is what American southerners call American northerners, as a way to poke fun mostly.

One suggested root for the word Yankie, is the American native Indian mishearing the French for 'English' i.e.  'Anglais', (pre-War of Independence, whilst the French and English were carving up the territory in North America). Like the corruption of the term linga franca - the common language of trade used to be the French language, so it's ironic now that linga franca means English!

I think the sub-genre "kratrock" is silly. The same with "italian symphonic prog". Only in the last months I started to look for kratrock since german music is very rarely heared in Israel. The 2 albums I have is Can's Tago mago which I'm still "working on it" and Amon dull II's Phalus dei that I fell in love with (therefore I am searching now after Yeti, Wolf city and Tanz der lemmings). However to my unexperienced ears it sounds not very far away from VDGG. Does that mean VFGG should classified krautrock ? My answer will be positive cause they are much closer to these than to Yes, Genesys, GG or Renaissance.

I realy think the sub genres classification is rubbish. Caravan and soft machine are canterbury but caravan sounds close to renaissance (symphonic) or trafic (folk) while soft machine seems not very far away from henry cow (rio). Art rock is huge enough to contain almost any rock band (although we have prog related to bands with some progish elements) while proto-prog contains the nice & the moody blues (symphonic IMO) and procol harum (for them proto-prog is more correct exept the fact they started after the two former mentioned).

For couple of months I've been thinking of a different way to classify prog bands but I need some time to write it down properly. Hope I will finish it soon so you can see what I'm talking about.

mystic fred wrote: i notice there is a section in prog archives labelled "kraut rock", describing mainly german avant-garde bands of the 70's. i am english but the question i have to ask is in today's "politically correct" society is:  are there any german members who are offended by this term?  do they or anybody for that matter consider it derogatory or racist in the context of a descriptive term for a music genre or whatever? if i used the term at work in a derogatory sense i would face the sack, or at worst find myself in court. if i was german i would be offended by the term however it was used. the terms "brit pop" and "italian prog" sound fine but i doubt if any americans would be very happy with the term "yank rock" if it existed, or i would not be happy with the term "limey rock" if that existed! how do any of our german members feel about this? should the "kraut rock" section in prog archive be re-labelled "deutsche rock"? below is a definition of the term from wikipedia; "since world war 2, Kraut has, in the English language, come to be used as a derogatory term for a German. This is probably based on sauerkraut, which was very popular in german cuisine at that time. The stereotype of the sauerkraut-eating German dates back to long before this time, though, as can for example be seen in jules verne's depiction of the evil German industrialist Schultz as an avid sauerkraut eater in "the five hundred million of the begum".." on the other hand, though... "However, because much of the music produced by these bands has since come to be very highly regarded, the term "krautrock" is now generally seen as an accolade rather than an insult." ...anybody agree with that??

Thank goodness, a justified explanation on why someone would be offended.

In this politically correct age, the term Kraught would only be offensive if Germans were a prominant or media supported minority group in a certain area.

For example,

In America, you can call Whites, or Aboriginals derogatory names but not Blacks. In Britian it applies to Pakistanians.

In Canada, you can call the English derogatory names, but not the French.

Why do such double standards exist?

Because it does not suit the politics of the politically correct white heterosexual english elite that control the social agenda to equally crackdown on bigotry against the majority or non-prominant minority groups because many of their supported political parties appeal to bigoted minoirity activists, like Al Sharpton,  who claim to represent such groups (wrong), or such people can't pat themselves on the back by showing they are not bigots by opposing such bigotry against such politically incorrect groups