CaincelaOreinim wrote: IDM as retarded as this will sound, stands for 'Intelligent Dance Music' yet another wonderful label... And for once this is an interesting thread...I happen to like all the above mentioned bands...whether or not they're 'progressive' I could care less.

Ok if you like them, but this is not the right place IMO for Dance music, this is a Progressive Rock place.

• I heard Autechre is Techno/Ambient/Dance
• Aphex Twin (Richard D James) is really one Dance/Rave mixer or musician is you want, not ok for here.
• Squarepusher is Bass & Drums mix and nothing more
• Boards of Canada is Techno/Trip Hop

None of them is even remotely related with Progressive Rock, and adding them would be a joke.

There are lot of places for this kind of Music, Prog Archives is not one.

Iván

Rashikal wrote: I would love to see idm artists like Autechre, Boards of Canada, Aphex Twin and Squarepusher put under progressive electronica. Sure they aren't rock, but is Kraftwerk (besides their early krautrock albums)???

As with other threads relating to this genre, I agree with Rashikal... I will say however that there has been a lot of debate on this site regarding the definition of 'progressive' in the context of 'prog' or 'progressive rock'.  I will suggest that whatever the outcome of the semantic debate may be, it would be ABSOLUTELY in the best interest of this site to introduce a new category for this genre much in the same way that post rock occupies its own place.  It need not be debated whether the music in question is truly 'prog' because it is evident that introduction of this genre would be in keeping with the spirit of this site even if many members do not listen to this type of music.

phobos wrote: Rashikal wrote: I would love to see idm artists like Autechre, Boards of Canada, Aphex Twin and Squarepusher put under progressive electronica. Sure they aren't rock, but is Kraftwerk (besides their early krautrock albums)??? As with other threads relating to this genre, I agree with Rashikal... I will say however that there has been a lot of debate on this site regarding the definition of 'progressive' in the context of 'prog' or 'progressive rock'.  I will suggest that whatever the outcome of the semantic debate may be, it would be ABSOLUTELY in the best interest of this site to introduce a new category for this genre much in the same way that post rock occupies its own place.  It need not be debated whether the music in question is truly 'prog' because it is evident that introduction of this genre would be in keeping with the spirit of this site even if many members do not listen to this type of music.

Please, none of this bands is even Rock and less Progressive, most are one man with a couple of turntables and a computer creatong beats and sampling music to be played at Rave parties for people to dance.

Some members may like it but no way Dance Rave otr Trip Hop will ever be part of Progressive Rock, not a single Progressive Rock site in the world even mentions the possibility of adding them.

Iván

Ivan Melgar Morey wrote: CaincelaOreinim wrote: IDM as retarded as this will sound, stands for 'Intelligent Dance Music' yet another wonderful label... And for once this is an interesting thread...I happen to like all the above mentioned bands...whether or not they're 'progressive' I could care less. Ok if you like them, but this is not the right place IMO for Dance music, this is a Progressive Rock place. I heard Autechre is Techno/Ambient/Dance Aphex Twin (Richard D James) is really one Dance/Rave mixer or musician is you want, not ok for here. Squarepusher is Bass & Drums mix and nothing more Boards of Canada is Techno/Trip Hop None of them is even remotely related with Progressive Rock, and adding them would be a joke. There are lot of places for this kind of Music, Prog Archives is not one. Iván

In reference to jokes, I find these descriptions somewhat laughable especially the Squarepusher one but to speak of this further is not neccesary or helpfull and I don't want to debate Ivan.  I will point out that the use of the word dance ("this is not the right place IMO for dance music") in this message is just as subject to scrutinization and differences of opinoin as the use of "progressive" can be.  In truth much of this so called "dance music" is as far from dance music as fats domino is from cluster...   if you really want to dance to autechre or aphex twin, quite a bit of their respective cataloges would require that you use a body which is simply not made on earth, to do so.  To avoid digression, I will simply say that these various artists have been influenced by many of the same sources as progressive rock (jazz, classical, technological innovation [ie synthisizer development vs the drum machine]) and that this genre tends to push aural boundaries in terms of pallette and structure.

Phobos

Phobos wrote:

In truth much of this so called "dance music" is as far from dance music as fats domino is from cluster...   if you really want to dance to autechre or aphex twin, quite a bit of their respective cataloges would require that you use a body which is simply not made on earth, to do so.

All this bands are catalogued as IDM which  as CaincelaOreinim well pointed means Intelligent DANCE Music.

All this bands are part of the Rave scenario, I don't care from who they sample, we can push the limits towards more accessible forms of ROCK but I don't believe that this is PROGRESSIVE ROCK.

• VH1 considers all of them Dance Beat
• Rhapsody considers Autechre and Aphex Twin as Bleep or in other words Bass and Beat
• MTV considers both as the ultimate POP expression of Dance Music and Techno Superstars and material for Club Bound

I don't ever visist any of his places as noboody here, but I had to go there to find more about this bands (bevcause of course they are not even mentioned in Progressive Rock sites), more than that this places as MTV and VH1 symbol of the decadence of Prog' largely promotes and reccomends them

So please, they play under a genre that uses the name DANCE, are promoted by the most infamous music pages as VH1 and MTV.

BTW: Squarepushers are described by all places as drum'n'bass DJ's, so I don't know what you laugh about.

Iván

That's why I stand on my original opinion, it would be a joke to add them here. And if we do, lets change the name ton the NON PROG ARCHIVES.

Iván

EDIT: Well at least this thread has been moved out of the Prog Polls, that's an advance.

Ivan Melgar Morey wrote: Phobos wrote: In truth much of this so called "dance music" is as far from dance music as fats domino is from cluster...   if you really want to dance to autechre or aphex twin, quite a bit of their respective cataloges would require that you use a body which is simply not made on earth, to do so.  All this bands are catalogued as IDM which  as CaincelaOreinim well pointed means Intelligent DANCE Music. All this bands are part of the Rave scenario, I don't care from who they sample, we can push the limits towards more accessible forms of ROCK but I don't believe that this is PROGRESSIVE ROCK. VH1 considers all of them Dance Beat Rhapsody considers Autechre and Aphex Twin as Bleep or in other words Bass and Beat MTV considers both as the ultimate POP expression of Dance Music and Techno Superstars and material for Club Bound I don't ever visist any of his places as noboody here, but I had to go there to find more about this bands (bevcause of course they are not even mentioned in Progressive Rock sites), more than that this places as MTV and VH1 symbol of the decadence of Prog' largely promotes and reccomends them So please, they play under a genre that uses the name DANCE, are promoted by the most infamous music pages as VH1 and MTV. BTW: Squarepushers are described by all places as drum'n'bass DJ's, so I don't know what you laugh about. Iván That's why I stand on my original opinion, it would be a joke to add them here. And if we do, lets change the name ton the NON PROG ARCHIVES. Iván EDIT: Well at least this thread has been moved out of the Prog Polls, that's an advance.

I understand that the D in IDM means "dance", this takes nothing away from my argument however.  My point was that the word "dance" is just that, a word and in this context may not indicate its literal meaning.  In that same vein... the M in MTV stands for music right?  Well, in actuality much of the programming on MTV is not musical (mainly idiotic and exploitive crap in my opinion) and everybody knows it.  The original MTV was mostly music however... just as IDM owes a part of its evolution to music which was desined purely for dancing.  By the way, rock'n'roll was by and large, dance music in its inception.  The word "rock" has been adapted and changed however and is now used to describe many genres which are not particularly dance friendly.  I must also say that MTV, and VH1 are bitterly mainstream and not at all in touch with experimental or cutting edge music.  These are not the best places to research electronic music (allmusic or ishkur's guide would be better).  If Ivan must look up these artists on such websites in order to speak of them, then perhaps he doesn't know much about this genre and therefore is not qualified to enter this discussion (no offence meant to Ivan, but am I wrong?).  In closing I would mention that there is quite a bit included on this site which is not really PROGRESSIVE ROCK such as: prog related, fusion, electronic prog and experimental/post rock.  Post rock is quite far from yes, genesis, magma, henry cow, gong or caravan.  This genre contains very modern material which certainly is related to prog in a way but nevertheless is quite far removed from what is accepted as prog rock and I contend that if IDM is unsuitable as a category than so is post-rock.

BTW: Ivan, maybe its just a language issue but I didn't mean to say that Squarepusher is not drum 'n' bass, obviously he is to a large degree... its the way you phrased your remark (especially the "nothing more" part) that got me.  Squarepusher (especially "music is rotted one note") has systematically deconstructed and regenerated this entire subgenre with his mix of jazz instrumentation (yes he does play physical instruments) and experimental drum 'n' bass.  To say "nothing more" is a bit insulting I think... but you are entitled to your opinion and I certainly respect that.

Phobos

Phobos, I don't judge your taste, it may be great I'm not an expert in IDM, but this is not Progressive Rock or even Prog related IMO, and aparently in the ADM that moved this thread to the NON Prog Poll.

But it's a Dance genre, it's clearly related with rave, DJ's and sampling which IMO is not compatible with Progressive Rock.

BTW: Also checked Allmusic and already listened Aphex Twin and Autechre after a discussion with amember who is no longer here after he became a troll.

And Allmusic says almost the same, but in the same moment that MTV promotes this guys as great artists, I start to doubt. It's funny, I didn't mentioned Allmusic because according to most people here is an unreliable place, but if you want, here is how they start:

Like http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:mex8b5z4tsqe - Aphex Twin , Autechre are about as close to being techno superstars as the tenets of the genre and the limitations of its audience will allow. http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:5y66mpm39ffo~T1 - http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:5y66mpm3 9ffo~T1

You see, even Allmusic says almost the same, and catalogues them as Techno, ambient, IDM. Experimental Techno, etc....buut of course not a single word about Progressive, even when Allmusic is one of the most inclusive and ambiguous places, if there's is a trace of a genre or even one note they mention it.

Hope you don't feel offended, I respect your taste, but IMO no dance, techno ambient band has place here.

Repectfully

Iván

Ivan Melgar Morey wrote: I heard Autechre is Techno/Ambient/Dance Aphex Twin (Richard D James) is really one Dance/Rave mixer or musician is you want, not ok for here. Squarepusher is Bass & Drums mix and nothing more Boards of Canada is Techno/Trip Hop

Did you actualy hear those artists?

It's like saying that King Crimson are a blues rock band.

All those artists among others may not be musicians but they are sculptors of some gorgeous sonic landscapes. I really doubt whether Klaus Schulze or Fripp & Eno are in any matter more prog rock.

Its uneccesary (for me) to continue discussion of points pertaining to the classification of so called "dance music."  I have one more thing to say however: It would help more than it would hurt to include the discussed category.  I would like to think that the overiding spirit here is more progressive than conserviative (meaning that adaptation and a contemporary rather than backwards looking view of reality rule above protecting the old guard and showing pessimism in regards to change).  If I were motivated to argue against categories of which I didn't approve for whatever reason, then I could make a few strong arguments (such as the one against post rock which I made earlier) but the spirit of inclusion is essential to maintain an ecceclic and intellectual (an undeniable characteristic of much prog rock) communication environment.  I believe that this type of environment is natural and beneficial to this place.

(I actaully have nothing against post rock.  Just thought I should clarify.)

vogre wrote: Ivan Melgar Morey wrote: I heard Autechre is Techno/Ambient/Dance Aphex Twin (Richard D James) is really one Dance/Rave mixer or musician is you want, not ok for here. Squarepusher is Bass & Drums mix and nothing more Boards of Canada is Techno/Trip Hop Did you actualy hear those artists? It's like saying that King Crimson are a blues rock band.   All those artists among others may not be musicians but they are sculptors of some gorgeous sonic landscapes. I really doubt whether Klaus Schulze or Fripp & Eno are in any matter more prog rock.

Yes I heard them except Boards of Canada, I normally don't speak about something I haven't heard, but in every case I read all the literature availlable about them and all agree in this points, if you don't believe me, read the quotes.

But you say something that really impress me, "All those artists among others may not be musicians but they are sculptors of some gorgeous sonic landscapes."

Honestly, this comment relieves me  of any comment, his is a musical site to read about musical genres and about musicians.

Sorry, but I believe this music has absolutely no relation with prog', we already have too many non prog bands here or at least dubious to add Musicians (?????) related to the Dance scenario.

Iván

MikeEnRegalia wrote: I agree that the prog archives are not a suitable place for these bands, but not because they are not progressive. Some things that Aphex Twin has done are much more progressive than some of the established bands here. But they are not based on rock music, and THAT is a strong criterium against them. Having said that ... they're very welcome on www.ratingfreak.com!

Yes Mike, but this is a site for PROGRESSIVE ROOCK as a genre, noit Progressive as an adjective to qualify a band's approach to music.

They may be progressive in that sense, but in no way they are part or related with the PROGRESIVE ROCK GENRE.

Iván

Ivan Melgar Morey wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: I agree that the prog archives are not a suitable place for these bands, but not because they are not progressive. Some things that Aphex Twin has done are much more progressive than some of the established bands here. But they are not based on rock music, and THAT is a strong criterium against them. Having said that ... they're very welcome on www.ratingfreak.com! Yes Mike, but this is a site for PROGRESSIVE ROOCK as a genre, noit Progressive as an adjective to qualify a band's approach to music. They may be progressive in that sense, but in no way they are part or related with the PROGRESIVE ROCK GENRE. Iván

100% agreement here. But the initial question remains - why are Kraftwerk here then? I guess that they are a historic exception from the rule. Let's also not forget that in the 70s electronic instrumentation was more exotic than today ...

I only have three arguments and believe are enough not to include them:

• Not related even remoptely with Rock
• Some if not most of them are mixers or DJ's who mainly don't play real instruments, I believed that virtuosism is oart of the requitrements of Progressive Rock.
• IDM is clearly related with the DANCE/RAVE scenario which IMO is the anthitesis of Prog.
• What will be next, Rap? Hip Hop?

Iván

yeppp wrote: Ivan Melgar Morey wrote: I only have three arguments and believe are enough not to include them: Not related even remoptely with Rock Some if not most of them are mixers or DJ's who mainly don't play real instruments, I believed that virtuosism is oart of the requitrements of Progressive Rock. IDM is clearly related with the DANCE/RAVE scenario which IMO is the anthitesis of Prog. What will be next, Rap? Hip Hop? Iván   IDM is clearly related with the DANCE/RAVE scenario which IMO is the anthesis of prog " <-- Infact lot's of so called IDM isn't danceable at all cause of the the rhythms...

Cool yourself I'm Ivan with an emergency user because a bug.

Shouting, using bold letters and telling people that they talk sh*t is not correct

Still I believe in all what I heard and what I read even when I'm not an expert on Non Prog Muisc of this genre.

Shout whatever you want, but as you have seen this thread has been moved to a non Prog section because it's not even Prog related.}

All thedefenders gie me links and pages, I checked them all and all say exactly the same.

Iván

BTW: Already Vogre defending them has made my point about not being realm msuicians:

Vogre wrote:

All those artists among others may not be musicians but they are sculptors of some gorgeous sonic landscapes. I really doubt whether Klaus Schulze or Fripp & Eno are in any matter more prog rock.

Well. this is a place for musicians, and better if virtuoso

And Vogre: Fripp not Prog Rock????????? Throw that stuff you're smoking

All hail Syd Barett the greatest musician of all times.

Even experimental hip-hop can be included. like Dalek who are mixing industrial like white noise with hip hop singing. They even have a CD with Faust and with ZU(avant-prog band).

People like Bill Laswell may mix Drum n'Bass with World Music and Jazz with Hip-Hop.

DJ Spooky has collaborated with Iannis Xenakis(an avant-garde classical composer).

Electro-acoustic is a whole genre in modern-classical music.

There is thing like programming, designing sounds, using technologies with knowledge. And I believe that some guitar virtuoso may not be a good DJ.

There is such thing as home listening electronic music. And I doubt that someone would be able to dance to Pan Sonic's minimalistic techno.

Post rock is clearly influenced by IDM, listen to ANY song by Tortoise. Jaga Jazzist who have fans on this site mix jazz with electronic music. Telefon Tel Aviv have both glitchy IDM, and classical influences.

The Future Sound Of London or The Orb have collaborations with Robert Fripp , and Steve Hillage and many others. From time to time there are live instruments and not only samples.

A few avant-progressive bands are influenced by electronic music(Ahvak, Art Zoyd).

The title of the post says 'Should IDM be considered electronic prog' and not prog rock. All the artists that were mentioned are pushing the genre far away from music for legs.

Ivan Melgar Morey wrote: I only have three arguments and believe are enough not to include them: Not related even remoptely with Rock Some if not most of them are mixers or DJ's who mainly don't play real instruments, I believed that virtuosism is oart of the requitrements of Progressive Rock. IDM is clearly related with the DANCE/RAVE scenario which IMO is the anthitesis of Prog. What will be next, Rap? Hip Hop? Iván

Quite a few people on this thread have already made the a succesful counter-argument to the first point.  MANY artists on this site have either a very tenuous connection or no connection to "rock", especially the electronic german stuff.  Also see a post on this thread which shows that the definition of rock is in fact so broad as to render Ivan's first point moot.  Maybe you should define "mixers" or "DJs" as you are clearly using these terms in a pejorative sence.  Some of these artists do play traditional instruments (squarepusher would be a good example)... its how the sounds they produce are ultimately utilized/structured which differs from more traditional composition.  The third point is very biased and frankly, a stereotypical opinion.  I am gradtified that members here have strong personal opinions but unless the opinoins are shared by the totality or even a majority, I don't think we can accept the argument.  If we can't even agree on what prog is then I don't think that we can agree on its antithesis.  Personally I would not be in favor of Rap/Hip hop (for that matter I'm not in favor of metal while many others are) but perhaps I am being shortsighted.  Whether a category is acceptable or not, it should not be dismissed based on misinformation, ignorance or the opinions of a minority.

Phobos

Oh yeah about prog sites mentioning it:

http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html#ESCHOOLS - http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html#ESCHOOLS

vogre wrote: Oh yeah about prog sites mentioning it: http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html#ESCHOOLS - http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html#ESCHOOLS

Beautifil quote, but IDM is not menytioned eather, and BTW, they have a band list and none of the bands you mention is included.

Eashikal, don't assume I didn't heard anything, after an old thread about this same nonsense of adding this band to Prog Archives, I at least listened a lot of Aphex Twin and Autechre, plus searched all the availlable Prog database and none is mentioned.

At the end, who cares, I'm 99% sure that they are not going to be added.

Iván

gggg wrote: vogre wrote: Oh yeah about prog sites mentioning it: http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html#ESCHOOLS - http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html#ESCHOOLS Beautifil quote, but IDM is not menytioned eather, and BTW, they have a band list and none of the bands you mention is included. Eashikal, don't assume I didn't heard anything, after an old thread about this same nonsense of adding this band to Prog Archives, I at least listened a lot of Aphex Twin and Autechre, plus searched all the availlable Prog database and none is mentioned. At the end, who cares, I'm 99% sure that they are not going to be added. Iván

If you don't care then just leave the thread.  The type of music in question is described on gepr but its all lumped into "techno."  They specifically mention aphex twin and autechre. 

Rashikal wrote: Ivan, you haven't even listened to any music from the genre for the reason it's described as "dance" music and they don't play real instruments. Contrary to popular (ignorant) belief, Experimental Electronica is NOT plugging commands into a computer for people to dance to. Boards of Canada is some of the most artful music you'll ever hear, and Autechre experiments with all kinds of mathy time signatures. Please try actually LISTENING to music from this genre before you dismiss it as non progressive, boring music. IDM should be included in the electronic prog section on this website. You argue that it doesn't fit in with the stereotypical prog norms like 20 minute symphonic epics and extended solos, neither does a good deal of electronic prog on this website. Are you telling me Kraftwerk's Computer World is "rock"? IDM music is expanding the boundaries of electronica and is very progressive, in fact IDM is WAY more progressive than all these sh*tty neo-prog bands that recycle 30 year old ideas yet you people spend so much time adding to this website.

Maybe you shouldn't call it IDM? I never heard that before. Why not simply call it AOE (Album Oriented Electronica)? No wait ... most of the above mentioned bands are much more than that!

BTW: You should all listen to this current release:

http://www.ipecac.com/bio.php?id=42 - http://www.ipecac.com/bio.php?id=42

the band is called "Ghostigital" ... amazing stuff!

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ also check out David Holmes, Lamb, James Hardway and De-Phazz ... I'll check out the artists you mentioned (although I already know Aphex Twin and it's a bit too commercial for my taste).

How can you call Aphex Twin too commercial?  He plays with the idea of being commercial in his videos and album titles (26 mixes for cash). Humor is a big element in his music.  Don't confuse success and popularity with commerciality though.  Its true that the "come to daddy" single is a bit commercial (and not very good musically) but that is an anomaly in his catalog.  The majority of the music is quite abstract however.  If you want to point out a popular electronic act which is more commercial I would say something like the chemical brothers or air any number of more dancable house-type arists/djs. 

Ivan- I understand that aphex and autechre are not listed in the uneccesarily long list that you just posted but if you follow the URL that you posted to GEPR's guide to progressive rock genres at http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html - http://www.gepr.net/genre2.html

then you will see this:

Techno - There is a wide variety of music that falls under the house, rave or techno monikers that is also considered ambient music. The earliest forms of this music probably got its origin in the later music of Kraftwerk. This tends to include heavily atmospheric and often psychedelic electronic music with an emphasis on rhythm and beat. Artists in this genre (or operating from it) include Orbital, Autechre, Aphex Twin, The Orb, System 7 and Eat Static.

gggg wrote: I believe I heard enough, I find it repetitive, lack of imagination and absolutely related with a non Rock or Prog genre.

Maybe if you really immersed yourself in the music and gave it some time you would feel differently.  You know, I didn't like Autechre or Aphex the first time I heard them... it actually took me some time and greater exposure.  Some music is more challenging for certain people.  Even if you never like this type of music... I would think that there are "progressive rock" bands who you also find lack imagination or distasteful in other ways... what does that prove?

Phobos