KAYO DOT.
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20929
Printed Date: February 15 2025 at 15:26
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: KAYO DOT.
Posted By: Trickster F.
Subject: KAYO DOT.
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:52
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I feel that Kayo Dot's classification is incorrect(now they are 'Progressive Metal' on the site), because the elements of Metal in their music are present in obscure, avant-gardish forms and, with each release, in fewer quantity. For example, their second album has only one song with a 'Metal' mood(the very first track, 'Gemini...'), more sludgey than 'Metal' actually, and there is also an about 40 second long awesome grindcore part on "Aura..." However, elements of other types of prog music are much more obvious in their presence, especially those of Avant-Garde and Experimental Post-Rock. T. Driver himself distances from the 'Metal' scene with each year after the departure from 'motW', now playing modern classical music as a solo artist with a violinist, so his group's next album will probably have so few 'Metal' sides that is enough to be neglected when choice is done for the genre. I mean, for example, Mr. Bungle and Fantomas have about as much heavy influence as Kayo Dot and NOBODY ever calls them 'Progressive Metal'. This poll was brought here by my sole decision. Please express your point of view by not only voting, but also expressing your opinion in this thread by replying. All opinions are welcome, regardless of whether you are in a Meta omission team or not. -- Ivan ------------- sig |
Replies:
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:54
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By the way, I casted my vote to 'RIO/Avant-Garde', although I believe "Experimental/Post-Rock" would suit just as well. -- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 12:16
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Experimental Avant Prog But seriously, Avant prog / RIO is probably the least problematic term with this band. ------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 12:45
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I will ask the admins again about the split of the prog metal genre ... I think the best category for Kayo Dot is: Avant/Experimental Prog Metal. Even when they remove most of the influences, they're still rooted in Metal. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 13:47
I agree. What the heck is the deal with trying to reclassify all these bands? -------------  |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 13:59
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Firstly, it is a nice thing to have all groups organised correctly. In addition, only a few people are interested in finding about new progmetal groups, and the general idea on this site is that being classified as progmetal is almost deragotary, meaning that categorising a group incorrectly often leads to a lack of attention. I can't see what you mean by "metal roots" though, two musicians previously started playing in a "metal" group(I don't see how you can possibly call motW metal though), whereas the majority of the big band are trained classically, as far as I know. -- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 14:06
We spent months coming up with new prog metal sub genres,tracking down and finding samples and songs for these bands,listening to them all,discussing and debating where they should be placed. I'll be honest,it annoys me when someone waltzes in and says...you guys are wrong. ------------- |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 14:07
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^ I just hear a lot of metal "origins" when listening to Kayo Dot, on the new album more than on the 2003 album. BTW: The term "prog metal" certainly isn't "derogatory" ... and if it was, we would have to do something about it. Moving bands out of prog metal just because we think that they "deserve better" doesn't feel right to me. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 14:11
Me either. One of the reasons that we came up with sub genres of progressive metal is to try to fit these bands in their proper place,and not just under the general term of "prog metal",which can be misleading. ------------- |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 14:19
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^(to Mike's post above mine -edited) That's not the point. I certainly did not mean that the more "usual" progmetal groups should remain in the genre, whilst the "better" ones, like you said, "more deserving" should be put somewhere else. I certainly didn't. Don't get me wrong, I am just expressing my opinion and seeing if others agree with me or not. If the majority does consider Kayo Dot progmetal and nothing else, I do not have an intention to keep repetitively reminding you about it. "Don't wave punches after the fight", my native proverb says and I do not cross the line. I know you guys haven't got used to my presence and think I'm a newbish annoying leech or whatever, but I actually have been a user of this site for a long time, although mostly in passive shape, but I just need to remind you that I truly do respect your works as workers of this website and do not neglect your hard-earned results and everything. Don't take offense, I'm just voicing my opinion and if I'm the only one who possesses it, I'll just calm down. I've seen it done with Ulver, so I figured: why not try again, since I think that would be the right thing to do! -- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 14:21
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Hi Ivan, Here take a look at what the prog metal team here is refering to in their categorization of the genre. This is only threads to demonstrate what they refer to. They did an extensive job behind the scenes. There was an enormous debate here in PA about that. There was a thread that just kept on going and going. prog metal: Suggest new additions prog metal: Organizing the categories
------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 14:24
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^ Ivan: Take a look at this huge thread: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13558 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13558 That's what we've been through ... I'll talk to M@x about finally implementing it, the only problem is that I'm really busy in the real world right now.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 14:45
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Avestin: some of the threads I can't access, because I have no privileges. Others I've seen at some point and I think even replied from my previous account. Mike: I somehow missed that one huge thread. I see a big discussion had been held, and I'm not sure I will have time to read and analyze the whole 41 page long thread thoroughly - can you please tell me whether the decision to divide progmetal been made or is it still under discussion with higher instances? Sorry if I am missing the answer, which could be find in that thread somewhere, I am just occupied with homework at the moment and simply check the forums every few minutes. -- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 15:13
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I voted for RIO/Avant-garde since it makes more sence.The term prog metal can be misleading for this band (it was for me). Yes, they have a metal sound but they also have a spacey post-rock sound plus others more. The genre I can think of at the moment that mixes other genres and sounds more alike with other bands is the RIO/Avant-garde. They have been called Avant-rock band and Chamber band in some sites around the internet including Wikipedia. One thing that we can't debate is that they are Progressive and good too   ------------- 
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Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 17:04
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I think Ivan is right to create this poll. If he believes Kayo Dot is not Prog-Metal, he's got right to suggest to change this label. We all know how misleading can be wrong labelling on a band. I do not know Kayo Dot in particular, so I cannot vote for anything, but I like the idea in general. I remember myself laughing when reading that Bubu is jazz-rock, Gnidrolog is jazz-rock and Thork is folk, despite the fact that all three of these bands are purely symphonic. Actually now, after reading this thread I got interested in Kayo Dot, which would never have happened provided "prog-metal" label remain intact, as I lost interest in metal since quite a while... ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 17:18
That's like saying that you lost interest in symphonic prog because of bands like Yes or Genesis. One should never think that they know all about a genre just because they know the key bands. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 17:59
No one could possibly know all about genre, but I happened to know a lot about metal, as I used to be metal fan; and even now, when I am happily divorced from this genre, I have lots of friends around me, offering to listen to occasional metal album. I do not like what I hear - simple as that. I can't see any logic in your comparison with symphonic prog and Yes or Genesis; and why would one lose interest in Symphonic prog because of them??? Quite to the contrary, after having listened to Yes or Genesis, one would fall in love with Symphonic prog and would investigate further and find more to one's likings, and the fact, that Yes or Genesis are producing not so good albums (to say the least) durind last 25 years, will fall into insignificance, comparing with what Symphonic prog has got to offer. You, probably, are trying to imply here, that I do not like Prog Metal because I know nothing about genre except for the keys bands. I have to disillusion you. I know something about Metal and have got quite a collection of this sort, which I'm getting rid off slowly by giving presents to my younger friends and relatives. I do not like Metal on the basis of what I hear. I got to know bands like Cirkus Maximus, Heavens Cry and many others probably well before you, I listened to it and gave it away, and now my brother in law (20 years old boy) is enjoying all this stuff. And funny thing - it seems to me that I can read between the lines in this thread: "Prog-Metal ?, oh no, they hardly can be prog-metal, they are too clever and good for this label" or something like that.... ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: March 29 2006 at 19:59
Can you be more condescending please? ------------- |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 01:17
I was only trying to say that Prog Metal is so diverse a genre that it is simply not logical to abandon it as a whole.
Well, if you read one of my posts word by word (not between them), you'd know that I say the exact opposite of that. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 01:24
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Sigh... Eugene's point was merely that he doesn't really enjoy metal anymore, no need to blow it up into a huge dispute... As for Kayo Dot, I think they're fine in their current location. They are extremely avant-garde and probably transcend a label like "metal", but it's how they're generally classified and works well enough that moving them shouldn't really be insisted upon. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 01:37
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^ if one decides to ignore metal, that's fine by me ... but I'm always tempted to respond to lengthy posts in detail. I agree that pursuing this is off-topic, so I will let it go. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 04:38
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It's great relief, mr. metal-lobbyist! Your reply "in detail" proved to me that I'm wasting my time on discussions with you, but as long as you missed the main point of my post, I have to highlight it for you - your assumptions, remarks and implications about me (or anyone else) disliking something on the basis of limited knowledge of the subject are boorish, disrespectful and plain stupid, - and I'm not going to tolerate this. And, as far as metal concerned, yes, I definitely should be more condescending, (as long as I was trying to convince my parents that heavy metal is of higher level than Bizet and Stravinskiy when I was 16-17 years old)
------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 04:54
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Ok, since you insist ... let me comment on your statement again (2nd try):
Aren't you saying that you dismissed the whole metal genre (MAYBE because you had given up on finding something interesting there), but you DO find Kayo Dot interesting? Doesn't that mean that something that you had already dismissed later surprised you? BTW: I wasn't implying anything. I merely compared your statement to another one (about symphonic prog), which wasn't exactly the same. I never said that your reason for abandoning the genre was that you only knew the most popular bands. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 11:46
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Also too good for Progmetal! Okay, half of the people are against me, and three of them are members of the Prog Metal team so I suppose that's where I forfeit. I had an opinion, which wasn't accepted by too many people, but I expressed it and I have no regrets. People don't share it, so I'll calm down. Topic is finished for me, Mike and Yevgeniy feel free to talk about progmetal as much as you want in this thread. -- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 11:54
I didn't have a problem with what he said,it's how he said it. Most of us are adults on here,we don't need to be patronized. ------------- |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: April 03 2006 at 18:32
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I finally got to listen to three Kayo Dot tracks (summing upto about 35 mins), and on the basis of what I've heard, I can say that to call it Prog-metal is very simplistic approach. I would rather call it Experimental. Although they are much more interesting band than ordinary prog-metal stuff, their music did not convince me enough for further investigation of their works. Nevertheless I maintain my point that initiation of this kind of discussions is very useful thing, as it might help other non-metal proglovers to discover interesting bands, which otherwise could be passed by. ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: Antennas
Date Posted: April 03 2006 at 18:55
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I've just started checking out this band, and from what I've been hearing, I'm as of yet very pleased! I rather consider them to be Experimental/Post-rock than Prog-metal, as they seem to be a lot more innovative and alternative. But in all, the categorization of bands will always remain a problem, and I feel lucky that it's not me to have to throw the final verdict... ------------- 
Jesus never managed to figure out the theremin either |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: April 04 2006 at 04:10
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its RIO/Avant-Prog with a "metal touch" ------------- 
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: April 04 2006 at 07:42
| They're a metal band who do things differently. Shouldn't that be the point of prog metal? |