The biggest scams in hifi
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20228
Printed Date: November 24 2024 at 17:26
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The biggest scams in hifi
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Subject: The biggest scams in hifi
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:26
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No oliver, I won't link to the "biggest lies in audio" pdf here ... I'll just list the theories that I find most laughable about audiophile metaphysics:
Any comments? BTW: Please note that I don't want to ridicule audiophile systems in general. There are many things that can be done to improve the sound of a hifi systems - some cheap, some expensive. But the things that I mentioned are just plain silly ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:32
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Vibration cancelling for CD' players can be useful and might not be as useful! Some CD players might be redicously sensetive of vibrations. But its most usefull for turn tables of course. Double cables where? Power line tweaking? Musical players are ofcourse better than cheap computer drive ones! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:34
No thank you, not for me 
I've better to do than loose my precious time!! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:35
But they cannot extract more information. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Lindsay Lohan wrote:Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:37
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Yes both extract exactly the same information from the Cd that goes without saying no? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:38
Well that was Mikes point! Now you agree with it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:39
Yep hooray but i have never seen any argument that said that it is otherwise. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:39
Oliver would disagree, if I remember correctly. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:43
I have.......but its not my point. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:43
Well tried! 
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:47
I have never seen a argument like that anywhere and im sure you must have misunderstood or something  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:51
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Im very sorry. You are the one that misunderstood. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:52
Well then exactly what have i misunderstood? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:55
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Don't try to talk yourself out of this, oliver ... look at what you said in that thread: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11027&PN=6&TPN=5 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11027& amp; amp;PN=6&TPN=5
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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The summary of your statments could be "Computer CD drives can't extract audio properly", or am I mistaken?Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 05:59
Mike said: I'll just list the theories that I find most laughable about audiophile metaphysics: Musical CD players can extract more information from the CD than cheap ones (or computer CD drives). Maidenrulez said: Musical players are ofcourse better than cheap computer drive ones! I said: But they cannot extract more information.
Which is reiterating Mikes point, while you in your answer missed his point. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:02
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Blah, yes but it seemed like such and obvious thing that even the cheapest of cd players can extract the same information BUT its what happens to that information afterwards is what matters. So yes Cheap cd players can extract the same inforamtion but it can not Reproduce it as detailed as the more expansive ones. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:07
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Well don't argue with me.........it was Mikes point not mine. I just like to see clarity of argument! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:16
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Luckily the quality of D/A conversion can be judged objectively. And doing so has not resulted in any definitive proof of the superiority of "musical" players. If you know any such "proof", please give me a link, I'll gladly investigate. D/A conversion is a fairly simple process. It's obvious though that in the early days of computer CD drives the audio quality was extremely poor. But today a computer CD drive isn't responsible for D/A conversion. It only extracts the exact data. Then the soundcard reads that data and does the D/A conversion. And here you have a wide range of hardware to choose from ... from simple gaming cards to professional studio equipment.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:20
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And yes its not ONLY the D/A converters that is resposible for the good sound but you would need one of these:
If you would want to sound good! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:20
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"If you know any such "proof", "
If you listen to a record on Player A If you listen to the same record on player B. There are INSTRUMENTS you hear on B and not on A. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:23
Exqueeze me, but that's a D/A converter. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:23
Besides on a computer the sound will be affected by many of the computer components  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:24
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Next time I win the lottery the first thing I'll do is to buy such a device and test your theory. Until then ... I'll continue listening to my system. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:24
Yes ofcourse it is! its not called a DAC for anything! But you would need one of these converters if you connected to them low end cd players if you would want it to sound nearly as good as the high end ones ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:26
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Computer is an extraordinary power's pollution source.
It features one or two Cd players, which already explains something. Cd players pollute a lot because it use "cut off power alimentation" (fact). |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:27
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^ Nonsense. D/A conversion circuitry is not nearly as expensive as it was 5 years ago, due to the general technological progress. The D/A conversion on a Creative Audigy 2 (and if not that then the X-Fi) is certainly more than a match for a big "musical" player from 5 years ago. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:28
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I give up definetly.
i don't want to talk to you anymore!! You don't deserve it! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 06:34
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^ we obviously are two strong personalities, and neither of us will back down. We should leave it at that. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: The-Bullet
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 11:36
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http://www.shakti-innovations.com/hallograph.htm - The king of audio scams ------------- 
"Why say it cannot be done.....they'd be better doing pop songs?" |
Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 11:53
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Wow, you two are on quite the crusade here. I think you're wise in agreeing to disagree. Especially since Mike is correct! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 13:00
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Fact? Where can I find even a definition of that phrase? http://www.google.de/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&rls=DVXA,DVXA:2005-17,DVXA:de&q=cut+off+power+alimentation - http://www.google.de/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=de& ;ie=UTF-8&rls=DVXA,DVXA:2005-17,DVXA:de&q=cut+off+po wer+alimentation
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 13:01
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------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 14:54
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All music i play on my pc has always picked up noise from the hdd, cd rom drive and power supply...it means if the hdd works hard the sound can get distorted. And yes i have no sound cable between the cd rom and motherboard
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 15:17
I know what you mean - you're right. But the problem can be solved by a better sound card. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 15:25
Aha so creative's sound blaster live is crap? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 15:52
yes. Well - maybe not "crap", but "cheap". It's designed for computer games and back then people would not use such cards for serious audio. I had a soundblaster live - it cost 25 EUR. The Audigy 2 is much better in that regard - decent D/A converters and better shielding of the analog components of the card. And the X-Fi that I bought earlier today ROCKS! It does all the magic done by musical players - it upsamples the CD audio to 24bit/96khz. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:00
[QUOTE=MikeEnRegalia]
Any comments? I have mixed comments about this: 1. if you mean devices for limiting airborne or surface vibrations i have found wall mounted platforms or granite based devices very useful for cd players and turntables as they are susceptible to vibrations from the floor and speakers if placed too close. 2. by doubling do you mean bi-amping or bi-wiring? i've not found that this makes any difference but many audiophiles swear by it. 3. some special electric plugs or block connectors with very thick cables are credited to improve performance but i have tried this and not found any difference. 4. i have found all cd players extract maximum information but the audiophile quality ones present it more convincingly especially regarding clarity, sound stage and overall prescence. my ears don't lie! -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:06
Well the Sound Blaster live card costed twice of wha the X-fi costs today when it was released! But ofcourse the best soundcard would be that one with a built in tube! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:14
Of course I agree about turntables, but I have never heard of a CD player extracting audio information differently when shaken. It might skip or refuse to play, that's right - but only if you really pick it up and shake it around.
Neither have I - and any technician will confirm that it cannot make any difference that would be worth mentioning. Unless that technician is employed by a cable company, that is!
Of course there is no difference - the input of the power supply and the circuitry of the amp are completely separated from each other.
That is correct. The audiophile players apply a lot of post processing to the signal. That's totally ok, but then the audiophiles should not try to make this audible difference a weakness of the cheaper CD player. That player is actually more accurate. Right now, while I'm writing these lines, I'm listening to Spock's Beard - Go the Way You Go on my computer using my new Creative X-Fi soundcard. It's the first PC soundcard which offers the same tricks that the audiophile players apply to the signal - they upsample it from 16bit/44.1khz to 24bit/96khz and during this expansion they apply intelligent filters. The result is a much more vivid, vibrant sound with much more presence. The instruments are better separated and you generally hear more details.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:17
Please tell me you're joking. |
Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:18
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I know people that can't tell the difference between 128kbps and a SACD so how do i know ye are not one of these people? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:18
So you bought the ultra mega platinum edition? I don't like them - you get the exact same card with tons of stuff you don't need - a remote control, drive bay, extra cables and interfaces/adapters, some old and obsolete entry version of a sequencer/hd recording software ... I always buy the smallest version which has the same chip as the top version. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:20
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Nope the original version called sound blaster live costed alot when it was relased back in 97! And yes Sound Cards with built in tubes exsist so no im not joking! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:24
But the best soundcard ever released is The Sound Blaster 16...no soundcard has quite that charm it has.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:29
Such a soundcard would be VERY noisy with the tube exposed to all the interference inside a computer. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:30
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Never heard it...but afterall all soundcards is fairly bad compared to the SB-16...nothing works better than that one ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:37
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Here's what I find to be the crux of the argument here: Any "noise" you may hear in a computer-based audio system is largely based on improper shielding of cables, and with an internal soundcard, possibly some "crosstalk" between the system bus and the audio signal paths of the card. That's why I always recommend D/A converters in an external housing. As far as D/A converters affecting the actual timbral quality of an audio signal, that's just nonsense. Some systems do some "upsampling" tricks to simulate higher res (as Mike explained) , but in the end, the 16-bit/44.1 kHz audio on the disc is precisely what was pressed into the disc (any bits/samples added later are interpolated). Any decent CD player worth it's salt has a low fault tolerance for dropped samples, and will interpolate seamlessly until the damage or interference with the readable surface of the disc is fairly significant. I'm amazed no one's mentioned the Fletcher-Munson curve. The human ear accentuates certain frequencies (just a product of evolution), and as a result, certain frequencies require more or less amplification to be perceived by the human ear as being the approximate same level. Much "audiophile" gear is simply tailored to accentuate the Fletcher-Munson curve, in order to make playback sound more "pleasing" or "musical". In reality, current digital technology is more HI-FI. (More of an accurate representation of the actual recorded vibrations). ------------- Pure Brilliance: 
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 16:40
Amazing what they'll try to market to people! That's like selling someone a horse-drawn spaceship. ------------- Pure Brilliance:
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: March 14 2006 at 18:05
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So then any of you digital freaks gotten to class D amps yet? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 15 2006 at 02:02
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Of course the best solution would be to completely remove the analog parts of the sound card ... just connect the sound card digitally to the amp of your choice. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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