I think there is a strong case for the Moodys being the real prog pioneers. Your view will meet some strong opposition around here.

'The Days of Future Passed' is a brilliant album and arguably the first prog rock album IMO. When you listen to it's structure, it's concept, the fusion of orchestral music with rock and poetry and then consider it was recorded two years before 'In the court of the Crimson King' one has to conclude it was prog.

I'm very much in that camp, anyway!

AGREED

Not only were they the prog pioneers, but also, imho, the BEST prog band in history.  I love many a prog band, just look at my fav bands according to last-fm.

I didnt get that last FM thingy till long after i played the moodies here at school almost every day, they should be at about 1,000 plays!!

I grew up on them, they are the reason i even got into prog, THANKS DAD!!!

moodies = DOFP through SEVENTH SOJOURN, all else is NOT moodies there is NO PINDER!!!

I think that the Moodies are viewed as proto-prog because they are a "pop" band and many people see prog as somehow contrary to pop. When you look at what early Crimosn and Genesis were doing  as far as creating mood, no pun intended, it really got its start with the Moody Blues, the flute and Mellotron.

The progressive impulses of popular music of the 1960s really starts much earlier.  You can hear it in a lot of the folk-rcok bands or Simon and Garfunkel, whose Scarborough Fair used the harpsichord. With the Moody Blues you have something that can be considered progressive starting with Days in 12/67. If Nights in White Satin is not progressive what is.

riverking wrote:  Im a big Moodys fan, and as far as im concerned,  they laid the ground work for progressive rock bands. Dont get me wrong,  there are a lot of  great prog bands out there,during that time frame, but i think that the Moodys opened the door.....

Sorry but no... Maybe they set the ball rolling for the mellotron-laden art rock bands of the early 70s and some of the tamer symphonic bands, but they sure as hell didn't single-handedly give birth to prog. No band can claim to have done that.

ken4musiq wrote: If Nights in White Satin is not progressive what is.

Days of Future Passed is proto-prog, a studio experiment using a has-been pop group (when was Go Now a hit?) with Decca's (Phase 4?) studio orchestra, which initially struggled for sales because it wasn't either fish or fowl to LP buyers of that time. But Decca had the wisdom to release Nights In White Satin  and it became a psychedelic hit in 1968, (you should have seen how the BBC late night programme  Twice A Fortnight televised that hit in '68 - oil wheels and various other hippy effects). However, the track did feature on the first ever progressive music sampler, Wowie Zowie. Indeed Moody Blues had to get recognition in the USA before being accepted in Blighty - e.g. with Legend Of A Mind, a great psychedelia tune: the west coast freaks could tune in and drop out on it. By the time the MB starting cracking the UK once more, King Crimson and Renaissance first albums had been released by Island Records, and inevitably ITCOCK was compared to DOFP and seen as superior.

Dick Heath wrote: ken4musiq wrote: If Nights in White Satin is not progressive what is.   Days of Future Passed is proto-prog, a studio experiment using a has-been pop group (when was Go Now a hit?) with Decca's (Phase 4?) studio orchestra, which initially struggled for sales because it wasn't either fish or fowl to LP buyers of that time. But Decca had the wisdom to release Nights In White Satin  and it became a psychedelic hit in 1968, (you should have seen how the BBC late night programme  Twice A Fortnight televised that hit in '68 - oil wheels and various other hippy effects). However, the track did feature on the first ever progressive music sampler, Wowie Zowie. Indeed Moody Blues had to get recognition in the USA before being accepted in Blighty - e.g. with Legend Of A Mind, a great psychedelia tune: the west coast freaks could tune in and drop out on it. By the time the MB starting cracking the UK once more, King Crimson and Renaissance first albums had been released by Island Records, and inevitably ITCOCK was compared to DOFP and seen as superior.

The reason why Days is not considered prog is because the instrumentalists do not possess the virtuosity that later became associated with prog; but a big part of progressive rock was also the verstility demonstrated by members of bands like the Moody Blues or Genesis. The Moody Blues have a very unique sound as well. And certainly they sound like progressive rock. Like the man said, "I may not know what it is, but I know it when I hear it."

 If you look at when the term "progressive rock" historically started to be used it was 1968 so anything pre 1968 is proto from that stand point. But Days being on the cusp surely qualifies it to be considered under the rubric of what writers were calling progressive rock at the time. 

People do not see the Moodies as an influential band.  When one looks at 1967 one immediately sees Sgt. Pepper's and the influence it had on many musicians, notably Brian Wilson who is infamous for driving himself crazy trying to surpass it. But down the line they were very influential. The Moodies used a lot of ambiance in their music, which Brian Eno cites as a chief influence on his future work in ambiant music, which brought us Frippertronics, Talking Heads and U2, two bands that whether one likes them have been quite big.

In addition, Talking Heads had a direct reference to the New York avant-garde and minimalism, which was influential on Yes and Genesis, the opening to Firth of Fifth for example. The piano intro is a series of piano ostinati.

ken4musiq wrote: People do not see the Moodies as an influential band.  When one looks at 1967 one immediately sees Sgt. Pepper's and the influence it had on many musicians, notably Brian Wilson who is infamous for driving himself crazy trying to surpass it. But down the line they were very influential. The Moodies used a lot of ambiance in their music, which Brian Eno cites as a chief influence on his future work in ambiant music, which brought us Frippertronics, Talking Heads and U2, two bands that whether one likes them have been quite big. In addition, Talking Heads had a direct reference to the New York avant-garde and minimalism, which was influential on Yes and Genesis, the opening to Firth of Fifth for example. The piano intro is a series of piano ostinati.

I hope we can have a civilized discussion now.

Moodies are influential, but everybody is influential, Moodies were influenced by The Beatles, early Beatles were influenced by Presley and Presley was influenced by pioneers of Rock as Chuck Berry or Little Richard.

So we could say that Prog was influenced by Chuck Berry, and that would be too much.

But being The Moody Blues influential of Prog as they are IMO doesn't mean they are Prog or even Proto Prog. The Orchestra on Days of Future Passed is not an integral part of the central piece, is just added (sounds that it was added after the central piece was written). It was a step towards Prog, but just an early step.

About Firth of Fifth being a Piano Ostinato (Stubborn or Obstinate piano in English), it's evident and even logic, because the main characteristic of the piano ostinato is that it disintegrates gradually as other instruments enter and takes center stage for the transition to the next song.

In the case of Firth of Fifth the piano is not a transition to other song, but an intro to the central part or a transition between two different sections of the song, in the case of the intro I'm not so sure the break between piano is too dramatic because vocals and the rest of the band enter almost inmediately the piano intro finishes.

The Ostinato structure you talk about is much more clear in the piano solos at the middle of the song, specially in the first one, because the piano gradually fades and it's replaced by the flute.

But in the case of Firth of Fifth the piano solos are a integral part of the song, that's why all the live versions sound so empty and incomplete due to the fact that Genesis rarely used Grand Piano on stage.

Iván

micky wrote: hahhah... not to give you a flippant answer to your inquiry but.... some people see what is and what is not prog differently from you.  I've seen Yes described...accurately?... as nothing more than an trumped up  pop group.  You obviously see anything with pop tendancies as not prog.  I respect that, but I don't agree.  I suscribe to the train of thought that prog was a movement rather than something that is black and white musically.  How else to rationalize such diverse musical groups such as Magma, Faust, Gryphon, Frank Zappa, and Hawkwind being all considered prog.

Yes Micky, and that's why we're here, each one of us has a different perspective, and we can freely discuss it, sometimes we'll reach an agreement, some others not.

I believe Days of Future Passed is a good album, but the orcheestra sounds too artificial, as overplaced at the beginning and the end of each track.

The Orchestra never blends with the central song, and please, you can't argue that Nights in White Satin and Tuesday Afternoon without that pompous and artificial orchestra are nothuing else than sweet ballads.

Have you checked the later example I give of Forever Autumn, it's the exact case:

The summer sun is fading as the year grows old
And darker days are drawing near.
The winter winds will be much colder
Now you're not here.

I watch the birds fly south across the autumn sky
And one by one they disappear.
I wish that I was flying with them
Now you're not here.

Like the sun through the trees you came to love me.
Like a leaf on a breeze you blew away.

Through autumn's golden gown we used to kick our way,
You always loved this time of year.
Those fallen leaves lie undisturbed now
'Cause you're not here.
'Cause you're not here.
'Cause you're not here.

Like the sun through the trees you came to love me,
Like a leaf on a breeze you blew away.

A gentle rain falls softly on my weary eyes
As if to hide a lonely tear,
My life will be forever autumn
'Cause you're not here.
'Cause you're not here.
'Cause you're not here.

the lyrics of forever Autumn are so ambiguous and vague that make sense to the concept of a husband looking for his wife in a war against martians and as a love song for Valentines Day.

Justin took it out of the War of the Worlds context, erased the narration and orchestra and vouila a top 40 single, the same case as in Tuesday's Afternoon and Nights in White Satin.

NetsNJFan wrote:

Nets, please listen this album if you have it:

Especially the highligted tracks

2. Tuesday Afternoon (Forever Afternoon) (4:14)
3. Nights In White Satin (4:27)
12. Forever Autumn (4:33)

You'll notice that this are tracks from Days of Future Passed and the last one from The War of the Worlds out of their conceptual environment, and all of them are nothing but sweet ballads without the pompous orchestration.

Iván 

ivan_2068 wrote: micky wrote: hahhah... not to give you a flippant answer to your inquiry but.... some people see what is and what is not prog differently from you.  I've seen Yes described...accurately?... as nothing more than an trumped up  pop group.  You obviously see anything with pop tendancies as not prog.  I respect that, but I don't agree.  I suscribe to the train of thought that prog was a movement rather than something that is black and white musically.  How else to rationalize such diverse musical groups such as Magma, Faust, Gryphon, Frank Zappa, and Hawkwind being all considered prog. Yes Micky, and that's why we're here, each one of us has a different perspective, and we can freely discuss it, sometimes we'll reach an agreement, some others not. I believe Days of Future Passed is a good album, but the orcheestra sounds too artificial, as overplaced at the beginning and the end of each track. The Orchestra never blends with the central song, and please, you can't argue that Nights in White Satin and Tuesday Afternoon without that pompous and artificial orchestra are nothuing else than sweet ballads. Have you checked the later example I give of Forever Autumn, it's the exact case: The summer sun is fading as the year grows old And darker days are drawing near. The winter winds will be much colder Now you're not here. I watch the birds fly south across the autumn sky And one by one they disappear. I wish that I was flying with them Now you're not here. Like the sun through the trees you came to love me. Like a leaf on a breeze you blew away. Through autumn's golden gown we used to kick our way, You always loved this time of year. Those fallen leaves lie undisturbed now 'Cause you're not here. 'Cause you're not here. 'Cause you're not here. Like the sun through the trees you came to love me, Like a leaf on a breeze you blew away. A gentle rain falls softly on my weary eyes As if to hide a lonely tear, My life will be forever autumn 'Cause you're not here. 'Cause you're not here. 'Cause you're not here. the lyrics of forever Autumn are so ambiguous and vague that make sense to the concept of a husband looking for his wife in a war against martians and as a love song for Valentines Day. Justin took it out of the War of the Worlds context, erased the narration and orchestra and vouila a top 40 single, the same case as in Tuesday's Afternoon and Nights in White Satin. NetsNJFan wrote: Quote: I feel that the orchestra on DOFP was integrated incredibly well for such an early effort, the Moodies admirably share the stage with them. Nets, please listen this album if you have it: Especially the highligted tracks 2. Tuesday Afternoon (Forever Afternoon) (4:14) 3. Nights In White Satin (4:27) 12. Forever Autumn (4:33) You'll notice that this are tracks from Days of Future Passed and the last one from The War of the Worlds out of their conceptual environment, and all of them are nothing but sweet ballads without the pompous orchestration. Iván

The orchestra is not integrated.  It comes in and out of the songs, which stand alone. I love the orchestra because it is tacky.  As you said, it sounds like an artificial presense, much like a movie soundtrack. The Brits were never famous for their orchestrations.  But it also has an impressionistic quality that often adds to the romantic quality of the songs.

As much as one can say the Beatles influenced them, the Beatles never took the use of timbre to the level that the Moodies did. Martin used the string quartet on Eleanor Rigby to give it an aristocratic air, and Harrison the sitar to make a religious statement.  They might have been successful in creating a sense of mood but that was not intended.

The Moodies exceled in the use of timbre to create mood. On Days, every song on the album is unique and highlights a style as representative of a time of day.  This gives the band the opportunity to play with timbres: guitar sounds, the flute, sitar and mellotron. The later instruments are are used to create a sense of romantic alienation, which is really the essense of early prog, (as much as Gabriel's lyrics try to grant it a socio-political stance and thankfully save it from oblivion.)  They transport you and take you out of the pop song structure. Early prog is a quest for the grail, something transcendent and holy.  The Moodies portrayed that better than The Beatles ever did and made it the essense of who they were as a band.

Crimson used these instruments in the same way on those first two albums. People think of that first album and they think of Schizoid Man but really, that song is so much different than the romantic, moodiness and sense of alienation that the rest of the album grants.

Just remembering that MB released a real prog album in 1981 amidst disco, new age, new wave, punk and whatever. They deserved a Prog Medal for this deed - BTW, the 1981 album is excellent!

IMO, the so-called 'core 7' and "Long Distance Voyager" are part of prog's Summa Teologica.

Before I started visiting this site I never remotely thought that the Moody Blues were a prog band.  I like Nights In White Satin, but if it's considered prog, then what is A Day In The Life or Strawberry Fields Forever or Within You Without You?  All those songs, in my opinion, are much more progressive.

An interesting thread. I always,  in the back of my mind, felt that the Moody Blues were progressive enough to take the "first prog group" mantel away from King Crimson. "Days of Future Passed" is quite symphonic - with an orchestra not synthesizer. But it is also psychedelic and because of the hit single, "Nights In White Satin", a "Pop" album. It is the latter that keeps me from believing they were the first prog rock group per se. ITCOTCK did not have a "Pop" hit in the way that DOFP did.

I admire greatly the Moody Blues music. I have many of their albums. However, the question mark around them being progressive pioneers still remains. How many groups/individual musicians have said they were influenced entirely by the MB work?. Put that against the musicians and even whole movements of music that were influenced by KC and we get a better perspective of the MB's contribution to progressive rock music. Yes - they are Proto-prog but are one of many bands pre-1968-9 that added a small step on the ladder of "progressive music" that was ultimately defined by King Crimson who have had a far greater influence on a music trend than the Moody Blues.

akin wrote: I disagree with the definition of proto-prog. The Nice, Procol Harum and The Moody Blues made the progressive rock from 67 and 68 (along with the Beatles, for example, the White Album, Deep Purple first two albuns and so on). Their progressive rock isn't like King Crimson, Yes, but it is progressive rock, because they used new recording techniques, new instruments unusual to rock, folk, jazz and classical influences, signature changes, experimentation, some of them conceptual albums and so on. Ok, Nights in white satin is a beautiful ballad, but it is a long song, with loads of mellotron, an instrumental section with flute, the orchestra and it is progressive, mainly looking at the concept of the whole album.  In the Court of Crimson King has two Jazz avantgarde experimentations (21th century schizoid man and Moonchild) and three "ballads à la Moody Blues" (I talk to the Wind, Epitaph and In the Court of Crimson King). There is any doubt these songs are progressive? Not at all.

It's nice to hear you say this.  The Moody Blues give prog one of its meta-narratives, the quest for the holy grail, the lost chord.  Genesis, Gentle Giant and Yes all pick up on this. The Court would not have been the same without the Moodies. Although like you stated there is 21st SCM, which is jazz and the improv of Moonchild, the majority of the album is romantic schmaltz a la the Moodies. I am passionate about this, like yourself, becasue I often read authors who say things like the moodies were important but nobody listens to them any more.  I went to see them a couple of years back at Radio City, a pretty big hall.  People are listening. I actually started a thread like this two weeks ago and gave my defense of Days as the first truly prog album.

cheers

riverking wrote:  Im a big Moodys fan, and as far as im concerned,  they laid the ground work for progressive rock bands. Dont get me wrong,  there are a lot of  great prog bands out there,during that time frame, but i think that the Moodys opened the door.....

I would agree. The Moody Blues were the first prog band I ever heard, unless you call The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Band or The Mothers of Invention - Freak Out! prog albums. If you consider neither of these bands prog then I would have to say ELP's first album or Yes - Close To The Edge. But either way, The Moody Blues - Days Of Future Passed opened the door for symphonic rock.

I forgot to list that I heard the first King Crimson album before ELP or Yes

Trouserpress wrote: riverking wrote:  Im a big Moodys fan, and as far as im concerned,  they laid the ground work for progressive rock bands. Dont get me wrong,  there are a lot of  great prog bands out there,during that time frame, but i think that the Moodys opened the door..... Sorry but no... Maybe they set the ball rolling for the mellotron-laden art rock bands of the early 70s and some of the tamer symphonic bands, but they sure as hell didn't single-handedly give birth to prog. No band can claim to have done that.

While I agree with you that no band singlehandeldly created prog, I ' d like to suggest a few English records that definitely did launch the movement

Moody's DOFuture Past

Procol Harum's debut and Shine On Brightly

The Nice's Thoughts Of Emerlist Davjack

Traffic's Dear Mr. Fantasy

I agree with Atkingani, I always believed and said that if The Moody Blues were ever Progressive as when Patrick Moraz joined them instead of Pinder and relased the incredible "Long  Distance Voyager".

This album is an oasis of quality in the middle of infamous  Disco, mediocre Punk, boring New Age, ans tedious New Wave.

IMO the one of the best if not the best album of the 80's

Iván