Recently, with the current overtakings of CTTE by SEBTP, we have seen an increase in mindless reviews with the sole purpose of increasing the ratings on one and decreasing the others.

In my view, this has to end. I propose that both fangroups stop this childlike behavior and solve the matter as Men: arranging a meeting in a field and battle to death.

Any weapons are allowed, from sharpened vynils and sawed guitar necks to Rick Wakeman or Phil Collins solo records.

With a bit a luck, the population in both fangroups with decrease considerably, thus allowing Dark Side of the Moon and Thick as a Brick to run for first spot calmly and in a gentlemenly fashion.

I agree.  This shouldn't be a competition.  And regardless of who's ahead in the polls, it isn't going to change how people feel about their favorite groups.  So there's no point in screwing with the ratings and reviews.

But I have to disagree with the wish to have Dark Side and Brick run for first place.  That doesn't seem to reflect the general opinion of the prog. community...

Can I get directions to the field?

I gotta see this.....

well.  I guess I'll be suiting up for Genesis.  Beware Yes fans. 

Tis a shame too, when we Yes and Genesis fans should be uniting under a common banner to repulse those barbaric hordes of DT fans.

JOKING before you people bite my head off.

I'll got my Genesis chain mail on..

I'll be quotin' from "The Battle of Epping Forest" on all Yesfans....

Charles

chopper wrote: I like Yes and Genesis - whose side should I be on?

Shhh... too late, you've said it. Both teams will think you're a traitor. Right before the battle they'll ritually sacrifice you to the Queen of Maybe's Merchandise and to the Total Mass Retain.

Comrades,

See the things from another point: this competition means that prog is ALIVE! No battle is required!!

The progger of the world has nothing to lose, but their sounds; PROGGERS of the world unite.

chopper wrote: I like Yes and Genesis - whose side should I be on?

As do I -- love 'em both!

That "Chopper" guy, however....

NetsNJFan wrote: Tis a shame too, when we Yes and Genesis fans should be uniting under a common banner to repulse those barbaric hordes of DT fans.

Here, Here! Nothing against DT, but they ain't in the same league as Yes & Genesis IMO.

You cant love em all, you can only have one favorite and all the CDs and LPs from the other bands must be burned! Mwahahahah!

Anyway there can only be one best prog band and it can only be VDGG!! but since they got sush a small fan base i gues it will be a hard fight for us against the great armys of the other giants  but i will never surrender!   or meby we shuld let the Genesis and Yes legions destroy themself first and then meby we can get Pawn hearts too #1 where it belongs  

BaldFriede wrote: Eddy wrote: are you saying that just because its popular or because it has popness in it that it is weak? Read again; I never said the albums were "weak", I just said they are not extraordinary.

Well, they each give me an extraordinary amount of pleasure -- that is what determines my level of fondness for music -- not its "daring" or level of experimentation. (And each was very original in its day, no?)
 

Case in point: I greatly prefer to listen to Beethoven's more conventional 6th symphony, over his unconventional "difficult" and "daring" 9th, overall.

We each listen in different ways -- your approcah seems to be more "intellectual" (that is valid) mine more "instinctive" (that is equally valid, I think).

Head vs heart vs some of each....

BTW, lyrics really mean a lot to me, and those on SEBTP can really move me -- other music fans seem not to concern themselves much with lyrics.

Different strokes....

Peter wrote: BaldFriede wrote: Eddy wrote: are you saying that just because its popular or because it has popness in it that it is weak? Read again; I never said the albums were "weak", I just said they are not extraordinary. Well, they each give me an extraordinary amount of pleasure -- that is what determines my level of fondness for music -- not it's "daring" or level of experimentation. (And each was very original in its day, no?)

Very well put - Close To The Edge and SEBTP somehow appeal to 90% of prog fans, thus there has to be something special in those albums, some kind of hook that other albums don't have.

And I don't believe in the term "overrated", if an album is rated high, it is rated so highly by people who honestly love it, so I think it's fair

YES v. GENESIS v. KING CRIMSON v. JETHRO TULL!

GENTLE GIANT and VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR fight all comers!

CAMEL remains peaceful with all!

And only EMERSON, LAKE, AND PALMER can save the day!

In the end... there will only be dust... and neo-prog...

Alagithil wrote: YES v. GENESIS v. KING CRIMSON v. JETHRO TULL! GENTLE GIANT and VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR fight all comers! CAMEL remains peaceful with all! And only EMERSON, LAKE, AND PALMER can save the day! In the end... there will only be dust... and neo-prog...

ha ha, like cockroaches, you just can't kill that neo-prog

  The only way to decide this is to stage a world tour with double header concerts and stick an applause meter in each arena.

 Yes Anderson Howe Squire Bruford Wakeman Versus

 Genesis Gabriel Banks Rutherford Collins Hackett

BaldFriede wrote: I could never understand why "Close to the Edge" and "Selling England by the Pound" are considered to be at the very top; they are rather conventional records... There are so many exceptional prog records out there that have by far more original ideas on them than "Close to the Edge" or "Selling England by the Pound". And don't misunderstand me, I am not saying they are bad records, they are just not outstanding and exceptional. They lack true daring...

Sorry, most of the times you are the very voice of reason, but this time I strongly disagree with you. Close To The Edge (not one of my personal favourite Yes records, to prove my objectivity) is daring allright. The first and the last track are very original and innovating. And You And I isn't as daring, but it's still a unique track, and the album as a whole is immensely progressive.

Selling England is not as "far out" as Foxtrot, but it's still a wonderful trip into a totally original imaginary world. It may be not the most daring album they made, but it's still very new and otherworldly.

There's no one left alive, must be a draw.

So the Black Cat Barons toss a coin to settle the score.

s1ipp3ry wrote: Its all Jon Anderson's fault such a violent violent man

  Actually lauged my head off at that

I'm with BaldFriede on this one - one can talk about Yes and Genesis being extraordinary, but this 'extraordinary world' one enters when listening to their albums is one's own personal world, a work of one's own imagination triggered by listening to these albums. It's subjective.

At the same time the 'technical', 'musicological' (don't know if I'm using the words correctly here) aspects of a piece of music are definitely objective. I'm no musician, but BaldFriede is one, and I'm certain she has a firm grip on these issues. This is why I agree with her that Yes' and Genesis' masterpieces aren't really special from that point of view.  

NetsNJFan wrote: Alagithil wrote: YES v. GENESIS v. KING CRIMSON v. JETHRO TULL! GENTLE GIANT and VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR fight all comers! CAMEL remains peaceful with all! And only EMERSON, LAKE, AND PALMER can save the day! In the end... there will only be dust... and neo-prog... ha ha, like cockroaches, you just can't kill that neo-prog

LOL!

NOW this is funny!

Good one guys!

Charles

Peter wrote: chopper wrote: I like Yes and Genesis - whose side should I be on? As do I -- love 'em both!     That "Chopper" guy, however....

Hey! What did Chopper do to you! he's a good guy

NetsNJFan wrote: well.  I guess I'll be suiting up for Genesis.  Beware Yes fans.  Tis a shame too, when we Yes and Genesis fans should be uniting under a common banner to repulse those barbaric hordes of DT fans. JOKING before you people bite my head off.

....Ah yes, the infamous DT hater!..

was that joke half meant, or do you really mean it?

BaldFriede wrote: Moogtron III wrote: BaldFriede wrote: I could never understand why "Close to the Edge" and "Selling England by the Pound" are considered to be at the very top; they are rather conventional records... There are so many exceptional prog records out there that have by far more original ideas on them than "Close to the Edge" or "Selling England by the Pound". And don't misunderstand me, I am not saying they are bad records, they are just not outstanding and exceptional. They lack true daring... Sorry, most of the times you are the very voice of reason, but this time I strongly disagree with you. Close To The Edge (not one of my personal favourite Yes records, to prove my objectivity) is daring allright. The first and the last track are very original and innovating. And You And I isn't as daring, but it's still a unique track, and the album as a whole is immensely progressive. Selling England is not as "far out" as Foxtrot, but it's still a wonderful trip into a totally original imaginary world. It may be not the most daring album they made, but it's still very new and otherworldly. The harmonics of Yes and Genesis are quite conventional, compared to some contemporaries. I am not saying there is nothing new in their music; compared to most of what rock music delivered at that time they are outstanding. I just don't think Yes or Genesis are the epitome of prog; they just happen to be the most popular ones. There are a lot of bands who deserve at least the same popularity, but will never achieve it.

If you put it that way, I can agree to a certain extent. Not completely, because I don't think that the tracks Close To The Edge and Siberian Khatru are conventional in their melodies, harmonies and lyrics. And I do think though, that it is the merit of bands like Yes that they gave innovative music some mass appeal. But true, there were bands / artists that were more radically progressive than Genesis and Yes.

You all may keep joking. But it seem that not so far are times when at the top of the chart we will see Riverside (increased it's voters 5 times from the end of october till the end of january), Tool, PoS (both increased it's voters by 60-70%, when average increase in a poll is 29%). And Devin Townsend, of course with Synchestra.

It’s only the Genesis fans who vote CTTE 1

Star, they are just jealous of it. But seriously

CTTE is much better than SEBTP. Anyway

Its just a list so it doesn’t really mean anything.

Thufir Hawat wrote: It’s only the Genesis fans who vote CTTE 1 Star, they are just jealous of it. But seriously CTTE is much better than SEBTP. Anyway Its just a list so it doesn’t really mean anything.

I'm glad someone else can see the corruption by the small minority of Genesis fans. And Yes, CTTE is far, far , far , far superior to SEBTP and any other Geneis album you care to mention!

The harmonics of Yes and Genesis are quite conventional, compared to some contemporaries. I am not saying there is nothing new in their music;>>>

Truly said. 

There used to be the adage, Yes- major chords, King Crimson-minor chords, (to which one could add Mahavishnu Orchestra- diminished chords.)

Yes was at a secure place in defining mid 1970s popular music. In 1975, there were two schools of Brit pop, Led Zeppelin and Yes.  Led Zeppelin defined the hard rock heavy/metal school although Zep did quite a number of acoustic tracks.  Yes defined the lighter, more ambient fare but also had some good guitar rock numbers.  Maybe Going for the One was an attempt to redefine themselves.  In 1979, Led Zeppelin, the sleeping Led Zeppelin, broke through with In Through the Out Door, which took them from super-stardom to mega-stardom. Later, that year, Pink Floyd followed with The Wall; Another Brick in the Wall Pt 2 was the number 5 single of 1980.  It took them from super-stardom to mega-stardom.   Genesis, of course, also made it into the Pantheon of mega-stardom with their series of mainstream hits from 1980-85.  Yes never had this leap; this was the reason Howe left. But that does not mean that they did not define the progressive rock aesthetic to the rock music world during the 1970s.

If you compare Yes to Genesis and the classic albums of both bands, musically Genesis does not compare.  Yes is so much more innovative, even in their diatonic, harmonic language. The ensemble playing on The Yes Album and Fragile is much better than that of Genesis classic albums. Just listen to the way Yes often played parts of the band against each other, as in Your Move and Perpetual Change, the funk groove of Starship Trooper. (Genesis had almost no groove at all. Bruford was Collins favorite drummer, and Yes, Collins favorite band.) or Roundabout, a classic pop tune that made it to the number fifteen.  Genesis is a pop band and admittedly so, yet they never broke through the confines of the fan base during their classic period.  Still, today, you will not hear any track accept perhaps the Lamb on American classic rock radio.  While I am no fan of Classic rock radio, one can argue that the ability to have broken through it is a feat.  There are quite a number of Yes tracks taht get regular airplay.

The use of keyboards in Close to the Edge, though not wholly original, redefined the way keyboards could be used in popular music.  Close to the Edge  is not one of my favorite Yes track nor one of my fav albums but I wold defend it musically against anything Genesis attempted.

           Why are we fighting one with each other if we are all on the same side, the battle should be prog vs green day, good charlote, etc.

Tony Fisher wrote: Progger wrote: Thufir Hawat wrote: It’s only the Genesis fans who vote CTTE 1 Star, they are just jealous of it. But seriously CTTE is much better than SEBTP. Anyway Its just a list so it doesn’t really mean anything. I'm glad someone else can see the corruption by the small minority of Genesis fans. And Yes, CTTE is far, far , far , far superior to SEBTP and any other Geneis album you care to mention! Crap. SEBTP is much superior - in my opinion. In yours, it is not. Your opinion does not affect my view, nor mine yours. Genesis made 3 albums better than any Yes album (as did Camel). You don't agree. It doesn't matter. So let's just live and let live without provocative statements, shall we?

The fact is it is not simply based on oppinions! Any musician worth their salt will tell you that YES's CTTE, FRAGILE ect is a notch or two above what Genesis produced or were capable of [FACT]. Also, for an album to be considered a masterpiece in the truest sense it has to be perfect in every sense. The poor production alone of Genesis's 70's output takes their albums down to **** stars to begin with....

[QUOTE=lunaticviolist]And when the hell are ELP going to get into the top 10?!>>>

is taht we ELP fans are more discerning and do not woish to force our views on the rest of the world.  when I reviewed ELP, I did so conservatively not wanting my personal bias to influence my opinions.  I tried to be objective but now I realize that was a mistake. The first ELP, which I only gave three stars because I knew only an ELP fan would love the three fates, fundamentally changed and defined prog rock, more so then any other prog album. It made the neo-classic aesthetic an imperative.

 Genesis is a pop band and admittedly so, yet they never broke through the confines of the fan base during their classic period. 

 You are amazing, now I can prove you don't even know what yopu say... In this post you affirm Genesis is a Pop band, but today at 14:13 Hrs on another thread you said:

Genesis is a pop band in the sense that they write well-crafted songs and Genesis fans concur with this statement but the distinction I am making is that Genesis was also for many of the most die hard prog fans the best example of the prog rock aesthetic, that is well crafted pop songs that are enhanced through progressive concepts, odd meters, extended instrumental passages, symphonic keyboard orchestration, classical innuendo, guitar layering, etc.  Obviously it is still the case. PS Yes was doing the same thing. ELP was not nor was Crimson.

Why I think that this it is the case that they were the most popular in the prog community is because I've read people saying that.  I believe that the it is true because even though the band was not popular like Yes or ELP, they were the most influential on the neo-prog bands, notably, Marillion, which shows that musicians in the prog community really repsected what Genesis was doing. So in some sense I am agreeing with you.  What I am contesting is the notion and its continued perpetuation that Gensis is somehow better than these other bands, thus dominating the top ten.

Today, the influence of Yes, King Crimson and ELP on many of the new prog bands, notably Dream Theater and The Mars Volta shows that ELP and Yes, though not as immediately affective on the next generation of prog as Genesis,  were doing something musically to be reckoned with, it just took them thirty years to reckon with it.

PS>
Instead of asking me to clarify my point or opening up to discussion you close it off just to prove that oh, you are right and Genesis is the greatest band in the world.   You could have asked, it seems to me that there is a contradiction in your point. Is there, can you clarify it? and if there is a contradiction in a point I made you just dismiss everything I say.  Because a point I made is wrong or misinformed does not mean that everything I say is wrong. I am here to learn and share like eveyone else.

PS you seem to argue with me when I agree with you. For example, I was not stating that Genesis abstinence from the indulgence of jazz or classical elements was a 'bad thing' I was just stating a fact. the important word is indulgence, Yes they did explore classical music, came up with a madrigal like style and referenced Bach, but they did not indulge it, as in over the top, the way Yes and ELP did.

Listen to Perpetual Change from the Yes Album and see why someone would be annoyed that fans on this site set up Genesis as the ultimate prog rock ensmble.

Yeap, Genesis is a Pop band that represents the spirit ans aesthetics of Prog

You can write 50 pages to explain what you tried yo say, but can't justify that, is pure BS.

But you want more contradictions to explain???

In this post you wrote: "I believe that the it is true because even though the band was not popular like Yes or ELP"

But a few posts ago you wrote:

Ken4musiq wrote before and he forgot:

Yes, they were the most popular prog band, but was prog ever about popularity.

Ok pal explain me  how in hell is it possible that Genesis was the most popular Prog band and at the same time "not popular like Yes or ELP"

Reading what you wrote before and thinking doen't harm you dude, it helps you!!!!

Ken4music wrote:

Instead of asking me to clarify my point or opening up to discussion you close it off just to prove that oh, you are right and Genesis is the greatest band in the world.   You could have asked, it seems to me that there is a contradiction in your point. Is there, can you clarify it? and if there is a contradiction in a point I made you just dismiss everything I say.  Because a point I made is wrong or misinformed does not mean that everything I say is wrong. I am here to learn and share like eveyone else.

Again you prove you don't know what you're talking about.

Read all my pósts and tell me if I ever said Genesis is the greatest band in the world

You'll find that I clearly state that I can only say I like Genesis more than the rest of the bands and I would never dare to say they are beter than Yes, Pink Floyd etc. The only arrogant who writes incoherences here are you pretending to explain with complex but absurd arguments that you didn't forgot what you had said a couple hours before.

Ken4music wrote:

PS you seem to argue with me when I agree with you. For example, I was not stating that Genesis abstinence from the indulgence of jazz or classical elements was a 'bad thing' I was just stating a fact. the important word is indulgence, Yes they did explore classical music, came up with a madrigal like style and referenced Bach, but they did not indulge it, as in over the top, the way Yes and ELP did.

Again you contradict yourself, you sai: a) they did not bring in over the top classic references like Yes and ELP did. Remember that at the time, the Band and Jefferson Airplane were considered "progressive rock."

Now you affirm they got explored Classical music and you compare them with Jefferson Airplane, who may be prog for you, but not for most of he world...READ WHAT YOU WROTE BEFORE YOU SPEAK!!!!

Ken4musiq wrote:

Listen to Perpetual Change from the Yes Album and see why someone would be annoyed that fans on this site set up Genesis as the ultimate prog rock ensmble.

I have all Yes albums except Big Generator, all their DVD's and went to see them at least 4 times, and still I LIKE Genesis music more, This is personal taste, and most of the progheads in the world seem appreciate Genesis music as much or even more than Yes music.

Leave your arrogance behind, that attitude of trying to teach Prog in a place where there's a lot of people that knows much more than you about the genre (Not talking about me just in case you want to say I'm arrogant), will make you fall in more contradictions.

Nobody said that Genesis is better than Yes, many of us like Genesis more (And we're entitled to our opinion and/or taste), but there are very few who dare to say that one band is better than the other.

BTW: We are not talking about fans on this site, we're talking about Progressive Rock fans all around Prog Web Sites.

Iván

Wny don't you try to come up with one coherent argument about the music rather then trying to disprove my logic,m which is a lot more subtle than you are able to comprehend.

Yeap, Genesis is a Pop band that represents the spirit ans aesthetics of Prog

I don't have this bias that posits prog against pop. I have often argued that I prog bands should write pop songs.  Roudabout was a pop song.  Watcher of the Skies was a pop song.  ELP's trilogy or King Crimson Larks' Tongues are not pop tunes.

Ken4musi wrote:

Roudabout was a pop song.  Watcher of the Skies was a pop song.

Watcher of the Skies......A song with:

1. A 2:15 minutes of 100% Baroque dark intro by Tony Banks playing Church Organ and Mellotron,
2. At least 7 dramatic changes
3. Incredible Organ work blended with Steve Hackett's best guitar.
4. The most amazing team work by the Rhytrm section, Phil and Mike are absolutely perfect. 
5. Amazing and deep lyrics.
6. Excellent Melotron work, considered by Mellotron Planet as one of the Top songs of the genre. 
7. Absolutely and 100% Symphonic structure

And you consider it POP????????????????????????????????????????????

What have you smoked lately??? If you can't leave it (What would be better), go to your dealer and tell him to sell you the good stuff, the one you're usink is killing your neurones, you forget what you wrote, write without coherence and you say Watcher of the Skies is Pop...bad symptoms

Watcher of the Skies  is a 500% Prog track, here, in China or in Australia, abdsolutely no relation with POP.

Surely you are clueless, and I'm not saying it's great (Despite it is IMO) but I assure you is an icon of Progressive Rock.

Iván

BTW; Your logic is not subtlem, is flawed.

Lets hold a Battle of Epping Forest, between Genesis and Yes fans! Never mind having a prog curry night, this is much more exciting! Let's beat the sh*t out of each other! I'll be right in there! Well actually I might follow Harold Demur and nip up the nearest tree....  >>

This is one of the best track on Selling because of the duet singing.  When Gabriel and Collins sang together, they really sounded good; there voices blended quite well.  They should hahe done a lot more of that.

ivan_2068 wrote: Ken4musi wrote: [quote]Roudabout was a pop song.  Watcher of the Skies was a pop song.

Watcher of the Skies......A song with:

1. A 2:15 minutes of 100% Baroque dark intro by Tony Banks playing Church Organ and Mellotron,
2. At least 7 dramatic changes
3. Incredible Organ work blended with Steve Hackett's best guitar.
4. The most amazing team work by the Rhytrm section, Phil and Mike are absolutely perfect. 
5. Amazing and deep lyrics.
6. Excellent Melotron work, considered by Mellotron Planet as one of the Top songs of the genre. 
7. Absolutely and 100% Symphonic structure

And you consider it POP????????????????????????????????????????????

What have you smoked lately??? If you can't leave it (What would be better), go to your dealer and tell him to sell you the good stuff, the one you're usink is killing your neurones, you forget what you wrote, write without coherence and you say Watcher of the Skies is Pop...bad symptoms

Watcher of the Skies  is a 500% Prog track, here, in China or in Australia, abdsolutely no relation with POP.

Surely you are clueless, and I'm not saying it's great (Despite it is IMO) but I assure you is an icon of Progressive Rock.

Iván

BTW; Your logic is not subtlem, is fla

You obviously have not understood one word I have said. Roundabout was numnber 15 in the states and that alone makes it a pop song. Watcher could have been a pop hit if the subject matter was not too intense for mainstream radio.  But it has all the elements of a good pop song, notably pop song structure and a good hook.  this is what I meant when I said that Yes and Geneisis took pop structure and imposed prog elements on them as opposed to KC or ELP who did not. One can asks the question, when does it stop becoming pop and argue that these songs stop becoming pop when . . . .but to just dismiss it shows that you have very little knowledge of music, which is okay but for the fact that you just don't seem to know it.

Lord Qwerty ponders:

Could the Knife breach the Gates of Delirium?

Lord Qwerty wrote: Lord Qwerty ponders: Could the Knife breach the Gates of Delirium?

If the Gates of Delirium are sufficiently Close to the Edge, then Yes.

Phil wrote: Never mind a battle of the fans, we should round up the band members and let them get on with it. Thing is of course that Yes has a clear advantage, having had some ermm.... well a much large number of band members so that gives them a head start against Genesis. Mind you that Phil Collins looks a hard nut, he was in that Buster film, don't think Bruford or White will be able to stand up to him...and Bruford of course is a bit of a turncoat anyhow....ooh look there's Wakey shoving Banks' mellotron where the sun doesn't shine.... and Squire has grabbed Rutherford by his beard and his tugging his chin onto his knee...etc etc..... OK very silly and I'm sure it (or something similar) has been done before!

I'm pretty sure after Squire destroys Genesis, in a fit of rage he will also kill his OWN bandmates. And i'm not referring to his size, just his bass playing! That's how powerful it is!!

ken4musiq wrote: You obviously have not understood one word I have said. Roundabout was numnber 15 in the states and that alone makes it a pop song. Watcher could have been a pop hit if the subject matter was not too intense for mainstream radio.  But it has all the elements of a good pop song, notably pop song structure and a good hook.  this is what I meant when I said that Yes and Geneisis took pop structure and imposed prog elements on them as opposed to KC or ELP who did not. One can asks the question, when does it stop becoming pop and argue that these songs stop becoming pop when . . . .but to just dismiss it shows that you have very little knowledge of music, which is okay but for the fact that you just don't seem to know it.

The radio play of one song doesn't make it POP.

You have thousand of Jazz, Classic Rock, Country (In USA), R&B, Salsa, etc that have radio qirplay, and that doesnt make them POP.

A genre of a song doesn't change because how many times it's played on a radio, that argument is absurd, silly and flawed.

If ten radio stations decide to play The Ninth Symphony of Beethoven and people likes it, would it change to POP?

The structure of Watcher of the skies is far more complex than most of the songs the big 5 Prog bands made, they experimented mixing influences, radical changes, complex keyboards, well elaborated vocals.

You can't call that POP, unless you believe radio DJ's decide which song is POP and which not.

And for those who speak about a mamber by member competition, this is even more absurd. A band is much more than it's members, but honestly I don't believe Hackett is less than Howe, Gabriel than Anderson.

 I believe Squire is technically superior to Rutherford, but the work of Mike in Genesis is flawless and that's enough to make a band work, sometimes even better because it doesn't cause internal problems in a band. Collins is a different case, I like more Bruford's style, but Collins is still a top 10 drummer.

And Tony Banks, may be less showman than Wakeman, probably not so technicall, but he's perfect for Genesis and fpr any band, Wakeman kept joining and leaving Yes for decades, Banks is a band member and by far the most influential keyboardist in the Prog market. Just look at all Neo Prog bands.

Iván

Winter Wine wrote: Peter wrote: chopper wrote: I like Yes and Genesis - whose side should I be on? As do I -- love 'em both!     That "Chopper" guy, however.... Hey! What did Chopper do to you! he's a good guy

Thank you Winter Wine. I've only just noticed this comment from Peter - what did I do? I don't remember doing anything to upset him.

Lord Qwerty wonders if anyone here believes Anderson to be a superior vocalist to Gabriel.

For the rest of the members, I'm not talking as a fan despite this is a Yes vs Genesis thread. I'm sorry if I bore anybody, but there are things that really piss me, and one of them is the disrespect for other people's taste and opinion.

Dogmas are for the church, music is only a matter of taste and opinions, we can agree or disagree, and we will disagree reteadly because we're not machines and artistic expression is not an exact science

I never said (And you can check all my posts) that Genesis is better than Yes despite I like Genesis music much more (To what I'm entitled).

I just argue with  a person that:

• Believes he can decide what band is better.
• Creates his own history of a Genesis
• Tries to convince us  that the the number of times a song is played on radio makes it POP or Prog.
• Contradicts himself repeteadly saying for example that Genesis (in his words) represents the aesthetics of Progressive Rock is at the same time a  Pop band.

Or a person that decides that one of the most complex songs of Progressive Rock history like Watcher of the Skies is POP.

Does anybody mentally sane  believes that any POP fan would accept a track that has a 3 minutes 100% baroque organ intro, complex timming, radical changes, intelligent lyrics, elaborate Organ-mellotron work?

This is absurd, I'm really tired of people attacking any band, I accept when a person says he/she likes a determined band more than another, but not a guy that comes to gives us absurd arguments to prove one is better han the other.

I have 29 years in Prog, I try to read any availlable information and as many websites as I can, but I don't dare to say if Genesis, Yes or Pink Floyd are better. All are different, all are amazing IMO, but I like Genesis more, that's all.

Before I was connected to  Internet used to accept as a dogma that the only great Prog' was done in the 70's, but I discovered Anglagard, Echolyn, Glass Hammer, The Mars Volta, Fantomas, Pendragon, etc.

The older members should remember that even hen I just joined this site i was very reluctant to accept Neo Prog because I believed in stupid dogmas. 

Dogmas are like a blindfold before our eyes, nobody should tell us what is better and what is worst, surely we can and MUST have a personal and unique taste, but nobody should try to force the rest of the members to believe that our taste is an undisputable truth and that everything he says is a fact.

Iván 

chopper wrote: Winter Wine wrote: Peter wrote: chopper wrote: I like Yes and Genesis - whose side should I be on? As do I -- love 'em both!     That "Chopper" guy, however.... Hey! What did Chopper do to you! he's a good guy Thank you Winter Wine. I've only just noticed this comment from Peter - what did I do? I don't remember doing anything to upset him.

Ah, sure 'twas only a joke! (You know, "Yes fans vs Genesis fans " -- Chopper and I agree on their music, but I still hate him.... As irrational and random as the thread was.)

Next time, I'll use the "."

Why are we fighting?

The fans of Prog, whether old or new or happy or angry or caped or dressed as a sunflower, should unite to squash the hordes of Linkin Park fans that plague the internet like so many locusts.

lunaticviolist wrote: And when the hell are ELP going to get into the top 10?!

Yeah, yeah.  They should be on the top, now.  I'm going to fill out mindless reviews to make ELP ratings go UP.

WHO'S WITH ME?

And when the hell are ELP going to get into the top 10?!>>

I hear its in the works.

PS Yes, there are those who really believe that Jon Anderson is a better vocalist then Gabriel era Gabriel, except when he did those voices.  Then he was da real bomb. His solo vocal stuff is a lot better.  On Supper's Ready and Selling England, when he reaches for those high notes and they aren't there, ouch.

I used to like Anderson's voice better, but Gabriel's voice really grew on me, and now it's my favorite.  Actually, I can't listen to too much Yes anymore because Anderson's voice becomes grating after awhile.  Especially on the new albums, he seems to sing a lot more on them than he used it, and it gets kind of shrill and irritating if I listen to too much of it.  Gabriel's voice, on the hand, I never tire of.

As for Roundabout and Watcher of the Skies being pop songs?  No. Maybe the radio edit of Roundabout, but definitely not the full length version.  They did make a short version of Watcher of the Skies, but it didn't get much airplay, so perhaps with that one they tried to make it into a pop song, but it wasn't 'popular' hence wasn't a pop song.

They did make a short version of Watcher of the Skies, but it didn't get much airplay, so perhaps with that one they tried to make it into a pop song, but it wasn't 'popular' hence wasn't a pop song.>>

Thanks for answering that question.  I was going to ask if they ever released it as a single and if they did did they cut out the opening organ solo. 

Pop song has nothing to do with the idea of "popular,in the sense of mass appeal  At this time, pre-rap, circa 1885-1990, pop is defined by specific structures and practices that have to do with the tradition and audience expectation.  The most common structure from Tin Pan Alley is the aaba structure, also known as aba.  Both Watcher and Roundabout have this structure. It is no accident.  these guys knew their pop music. 

look and learn

Fascinating Rhythm

A)

Fascinating Rhythm, 
You've got me on the go! 
Fascinating Rhythm, 
I'm all a-quiver. 

A)

What a mess you're making! 
The neighbors want to know 
Why I'm always shaking 
Just like a flivver. 

B)

Each morning I get up with the sun -- 
Start a-hopping, 
Never stopping -- 
To find at night no work has been done. 

A)

I know that 
Once it didn't matter -- 
But now you're doing wrong; 
When you start to patter 
I'm so unhappy. 

A)

Won't you take a day off? 
Decide to run along 
Somewhere far away off -- 
And make it snappy! 

B)

Oh, how I long to be the man I used to be! 
Fascinating Rhythm, 
Oh, won't you stop picking on me?

Watcher of the skies

A)

Watcher of the skies watcher of all
His is a world alone no world is his own,

A)
He whom life can no longer surprise,
Raising his eyes beholds a planet unknown.

B)
Creatures shaped this planet’s soil,
Now their reign has come to end,
Has life again destroyed life,
Do they play elsewhere, do they know
More than their childhood games?

A)
Maybe the lizard’s shed it’s tail,
This is the end of man’s long union with earth.

A)
Judge not this race by empty remains
Do you judge God by his creatures when they are dead?

A)
For now, the lizard’s shed it’s tail
This is the end of man’s long union with earth.

B)
From life alone to life as one,
Think not now your journey’s done
For though your ship be sturdy, no
Mercy has the sea,
Will you survive on the ocean of being?

A)
Come ancient children hear what I say
This is my parting council for you on your way.

A)
Sadly now your thoughts turn to the stars
Where we have gone you know you never can go.

A)
Watcher of the skies watcher of all
This is your fate alone, this fate is your own.
 

Roundabout

A)

I'll be the roundabout
The words will make you out ’n’ out
You change the day your way
Call it morning driving thru the sound and
In and out the valley

A)
The muses dance and sing
They make the children really ring
I spend the day your way
Call it morning driving thru the sound and
In and out the valley

B)

In and around the lake
Mountains come out of the sky and they
Stand there
One mile over we’ll be there and we’ll see
You
Ten true summers we’ll be there and
Laughing too
Twenty four before my love you’ll see I’ll be
There with you

A)
I will remember you
Your silhouette will charge the view
Of distance atmosphere
Call it morning driving thru the sound and
Even in the valley

Roundabout has this wonderful contrasing bridge section that brings you back to the basic structure, oh, afterthe big jam session,  and it ends with a coda.  Is somebody going to argue that this is a sonata rondo form?

Along the drifting cloud the eagle searching
Down on the land
Catching the swirling wind the sailor sees
The rim of the land
The eagle’s dancing wings create as weather
Spins out of hand
Go closer hold the land feel partly no more
Than grains of sand
We stand to lose all time a thousand answers
By in our hand
Next to your deeper fears we stand
Surrounded by a million years

A)
I’ll be the roundabout
The words will make you out ’n’ out
I’ll be the roundabout
The words will make you out ’n’ out

A)
I’ll be the roundabout
The words will make you out ’n’ out
I spend the day your way
Call it morning driving thru the sound and
In and out the valley

Ken4musiq wrote:

You obviously have not understood one word I have said. Roundabout was numnber 15 in the states and that alone makes it a pop song.

But 24 hours after:

Ken4musiq wrote:

Pop song has nothing to do with the idea of "popular,in the sense of mass appeal

VERY COHERENT  Can't you remember what you wrote before? Do you have Alzheimer??? Please, again you change your opinion in 180° degrees in one day, it's pathetic.

If they take the dark Baroque intro, if they eliminate the dramatic changes, if they change the complex timming, if they create popular lyrics to replace the exuisting maybe then WOTS would be POP, but in that case you will be talking about another song.

You have nothing to teach me except your own contradictions, whith the one at the start of this post, we have four.

Iván

Just to show how you try to manipulate things to preove the silly arguments you give, i will go with this one:

Ken4music wrote:

The most common structure from Tin Pan Alley is the aaba structure, also known as aba.  Both Watcher and Roundabout have this structure. It is no accident.  these guys knew their pop music.

According to your argument, the AABA structure is exclusive of Pop or at least you are trying to convince us about that, but:

The thirty-two-bar form, often shortened to AABA, is a musical form common in Tin Pan Alley songs, later popular music including rock and pop music, and jazz, though "there were few instances of it in any type of popular music until the late teens," it became "the principal form" around 1925-1926 (Wilder 1972, p. 56, [1]).

So, this structure is common in ROCK, POP, and even JAZZ

Watcher of the Skies is a Progressive ROCK song, so it's obvious they use some characteristics and structures common in ROCK.  

I could prove you have clearly reorganized the lyric structure of Watcher of the Skies to pretend it takes an AABA form (You omit the instrumental sections at the start and the middle that change the basic structure), but it's useless, because  it's evident AABA is the most common structure to most genres.

You also say properly that the AABA form is called the Tin Pan Alley song.........But you forget to mebtion that the Tin Pan Alley structure was created around 1890:

The history of Tin Pan Alley is a history of the United States as seen by its tunesmiths. We find an incredible variety of materials documented in songs which do, indeed, seem to have mirrored every aspect of American life from the beginning of Tin Pan Alley in the 1890s to the latest digital technology. We can chronicle the changing musical tastes of Americans, along with our social, economic and political concerns, by the kinds of popular music we bought, played and listened to -- from the tear-jerker to the latest rock song.

The Tin Pan Alley song structure is not only usred by Rock, Pop and Jazz, but it's part of the history of music in USA, being common also in almost any genre.

For your proper information, this structure is also called the Thirty-Two-Bar Form, and it was used among others:

Thirty-two-bar form was often used in rock in the 1950s and 60s, afterwhich verse-chorus form became more prevalent. Examples (ibid, 71) include: The Brill Building and other songwriters, such as Lennon-McCartney, often used modified thirty-two-bar forms, often modifying the number of measures in individual or all sections. Examples include (ibid, p.70):

So it's obvious that this structure was created almost 100 years before the POP genre was even born, and it's common to almost any genre, including Rock and Jazz.

If you are going to argue something...use the complete quotes please.

Iván

This is like Jesus talking to the Pharisees. The musician talking to the lawyer. This truly represent what music came to in the late 1970s.  This is a typical case of not seeing the forest for the trees. 

First of all- to think that art and music have anything to do with logical arguments.  You are making the value judgments on most of my statements. They are not there.

Second of all- to not really be able to understand that you have not debunked the logic of my argument.

Third of all to be so stuck on being right that you become impossible to relate to.

Just to give you an example of what I mean.  "Pop" like any word, has several dimensions of meaning and can be used indifferent ways.  I clearly redefined it before I asserted my blurb so you would know exactly how I was using it.  AABA is a pop structure from Tin Pan Alley that was used in and rock and jazz. It comes into rock from pop and the thirty two bar blues. The jazz performers were jamming on these Tin Pan Alley songs. Did you know that? No . .  well now you do.  Just like you called Watcher a symphonic form.  Can you name a symphonic form off the top of your head.  Do you know what sonata allegro is?  What it does?

right now you should be apologizing for the way you have been going though my posts with red ink like some crazy teacher out of The Wall.  But you can't see that.

I said I was done, which means I am done with you.  I would appreiciate it if you no longer reseponded to my posts. I only wrote this blurb to address giangothweed who seemed interested in why I was saying this.

Kotro wrote: Recently, with the current overtakings of CTTE by SEBTP, we have seen an increase in mindless reviews with the sole purpose of increasing the ratings on one and decreasing the others. In my view, this has to end. I propose that both fangroups stop this childlike behavior and solve the matter as Men: arranging a meeting in a field and battle to death. Any weapons are allowed, from sharpened vynils and sawed guitar necks to Rick Wakeman or Phil Collins solo records.   With a bit a luck, the population in both fangroups with decrease considerably, thus allowing Dark Side of the Moon and Thick as a Brick to run for first spot calmly and in a gentlemenly fashion.

Just to remind that this was the opening idea. This was just a fun thread to read if people keep with an healthy exchange of insults... Once solid arguments and coherents ideas kick in, it kinda spoils it.