What do you think about this Soundtrack Album?

Yesterday i listened to it in its two versions, spanish and the original with the artist of the movie, and i found it quite progressive in most of the songs, its a concept album, with constant evolution , mood changes, experimentation ,symphonic rock and a lot of beautiful passages.

I think this album should be in the archives.. do you think the same??

Yes, it is, but exactly im talking about the soundtrack of the movie directed by Norman Jewison

Jeez!

Yep - it's Prog alright.

It's not just a musical - it's a full-blown Rock Opera, way beyond the simplicity of "Tommy".

Almost the same goes for "Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat" - the first ever Rock Opera (it beat "Tommy" by a few months...).

And ALW's Variations is a Pure Prog album - Rock variations on a theme of Paganini, played by most of Colosseum II and other distinguished musicians?

Of course it's Prog!

We should be clear about which version we are talking about though. The original with Ian Gillan as Jesus was not a soundtrack, it was released some years before the stage show or the film. As Cert says, it was a rock opera.

I'd agree it should be added to the Various artists section.

Which part of that is in 7/4?

Certif1ed wrote: Which part of that is in 7/4?

I dunno.         

I love it!

It's an amazing piece of music, very complete, very proggy and doesn't sound like a soundtrack at all. I'd be happy to see it here

Certif1ed wrote: Almost the same goes for "Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat" - the first ever Rock Opera (it beat "Tommy" by a few months...).

Please tell that's not true..................

We had to watch that in band class and it hurt my brain.

No. A pop/rock classic, but a mere concept doth not a prog album make.

Again, the word "progressive" really means everything and nothing here -- why this endless mania to retroactively include so many artists and albums?

Why must all good rock be here?

WTF is "progressive" music, really? It's certainly not a genre, an era, or a sound, it seems!

Too many cooks... each with his or her own recipe.

BTW, for the record, the original JCS was NOT a movie soundtrack! The movie came later, with different artists & musicians involved.

Edit: -- whoops! This point was already made! Sorry.

"Progressive rock" does not really exist -- there's just rock (and now jazz, folk, world, metal....)

I say it again: GoodMusic Archives is what we are now.

We have prog folk, prog metal -- where's the prog punk, prog country, prog disco?

Some country artists (not the crap on the radio) make very involved, intelligent music, you know.

The Clash certainly progressed....

Where will it end? (It won't, of course.)

Again -- the word "progressive" as a term to categorize music, is so vague as to be all but meaningless. We have stretched the original sense of the word well beyond the breaking point, and out of all recognition.

Once more: At the very least, we need to go to straight numerical ratings -- dump the words that accompany the individual star ratings. How can an album that is only "prog related" (all western music, or at least all rock, is "prog related") be "a masterpiece of progressive music"? As it stands now, because of those words, many great albums here cannot justifiably qualify for the highest marks as a piece of art.

WTF is "progressive music?"

(Purely subjective, that's what!)

Oh well -- shouting into a hurricane again...um de dum de dum....

One of my all time favourite albums ... the original Rock Opera with Ian Gillan ... 

but I wouldn't include it ... not until we have that 100 important albums by non-prog artists list that I keep suggesting instead of having fringe artists and/or projects included wholesale ...

"Progressive," re music, has outlived its utility, and become meaningless.

Please see my last post on page 1.

I'm not trying to make a case for including ALW, but JATTCDC remains the first rock opera - you can't take that away from it, simply because it was the first operetta (really) to be based on rock music.

Many schools perform it - I was musical director for the performance at my school, and loved playing the music. That doesn't make "Joseph..." Prog, but it is very progressive, and includes a good balance of Prog elements - classical influences, ROCK, unusual time signatures (e.g. 7/4), modulations to different keys and so forth.

JCS is a whole new ball game - it's a fully-fledged opera with recitative and aria in the traditional sense, an epic story (you can't get much more epic!), and the music and constructions are far more sophisticated than "Joseph". It's also in the right era - so why not Prog Rock? I can't think of a single GOOD reason, apart from loathing ALW for the trite musicals he's come up with since.

"Variations" is a Prog Rock album of the highest order.

But can you imagine "Evita" or "Cats" in the Archives?

It's a tough one, I agree - but don't just shoot "Joseph...", "JCS" and "Variations" down in flames unless you can some up with a better reason than "They're by ALW...".

 i dont know.... im confused

horza wrote: So let me get this straight ( ) Andrew Lloyd Webber should be listed as an artist on the Prog Archives because Jesus Christ Superstar the Rock Opera featuring Ian Gillan sounds a bit proggy No, it IS a Rock Opera, ergo Progressive Rock by default. AND Julian Lloyd Webber should be on here because his album Variations featured ex-members of Colloseum II etc etc No - Andrew Lloyd Webber "wrote" the Variations - Julian was just one of the band. It is a set of Theme and variations on Paganini's Caprice in A minor, and it's played not just by a Rock band, but by an army of fine Prog musicians - and Phil Collins. Again, it IS Prog Rock - just listen to it. Should we feature an artist because one album in his discography has prog tendancies ? Three, actually... And what about the bands in the archives that only have one album? Can we also then feature an artist if a couple of tracks on an album has prog tendancies ? That does not follow I'm just asking because this site is in danger of losing its integrity - thats just MY opinion

It IS a tough one.

Those 3 albums are almost unquestionably Prog Rock - Variations is Prog Rock of the highest order - better, in many ways than any of the Classic bands, because it's a real composition of the most difficult type - most composers in history acknowledge that Theme and Variations is among the hardest type of work to pull off, after Opera. Some would argue that it's harder than Opera.

Variations is of far higher quality, compositionally speaking, than anything by Emerson Lake and Palmer, for example.

If it was good enough for Rakhmaninov...

BUT

ALW is not exactly renowned as a Prog artist, and I can't say that I want to see him in the archives.

However, there is NO denying that the three albums under discussion ARE Prog Rock.

The only objection so far is that they're by ALW...

Which is fair enough, in many ways.

This site will NEVER lose its integrity - it's the best resource for Prog Rock on the Internet - it leads, others follow

Snow Dog wrote: A Rock Opera is progressive Rock by default? No it isn't!

Agreed. Neither concept albums nor "operas" make something prog "by default".

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Snow Dog wrote: A Rock Opera is progressive Rock by default? No it isn't! Agreed. Neither concept albums nor "operas" make something prog "by default".

Yes, actually, a Rock Opera IS a very progressive thing to do - not many have achieved it. Tommy isn't really a Rock Opera, as it doesn't have proper recitative passages or arias per se.

But having Classical influences and using them with Rock is just one of  a number of important progressive elements.

There is also a very diverse range of styles in JCS - as there should be in an opera. This is another important Prog element.

The music itself develops as the work progresses - this is fundamental to Prog Rock.

The initial productions were scored for Rock band, and would have been very different to any of the recorded versions, but there are several recorded versions, and each is markedly different in character. It's so loose that it can be re-interpreted - ie very progressive.

I'll stop now - 4 solid reasons should do for the time being (in addition to those I've already given).

But that is a minor and moot point you're both picking up on (and not for the first time, I might add...) - the point is that not ONE single reason has been given for why this is not Prog Rock.

FOR: At least 4 good reasons.

AGAINST: It's by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

Compelling...

Easy Livin wrote: I wouldn't want to see a page for ALW myself, as he is not a performer. I do support the inclusion of JCSS, but in the Various Artists section.

Indeed - we could probably get around "Variations" in the same way, if the "Various Artists" term was loose enough...

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Incidentally: I thought that it was a musical, not an opera. Please be as exact as you expect your "opponents" to be.

Why do you persist with this moot point?

JCS has recitative and aria, and it is acted. It is a drama set to music, based on an epic story - ergo Opera. A good example of an Opera is Verdi's "La Traviata".

A Musical is a play whose action and dialogue is broken up with songs. A good example, or an example that illustrates what a musical is, at least, is Lionel Bart's "Oliver!".

An Operetta comes somewhere between - it may have dialogue, but only to flesh it out - e.g. Mozart's "Die Zauberflote".

A Pantomime is an allegedly comic interpretation of a children's fairy tale, typically performed after Christmas, that features dialogue and song, in a similar style to a musical, but with audience participation, a large and often topical range of jokes, and dialogue that is often in rhyming couplets.

I wonder why I suddenly thought of a pantomime...

Please learn the terms before taking on someone who has a deep understanding of them - then you stand a chance of at least approaching the argument from a more appropriate level 

Or are you thinking of changing your handle to Fozzie Bear?

All the "right" ingrediants may be there but Prog Rock? Just because it was intended to be played by a rock band doesnt convince me. Opera? Come off it,you'd never get an Opera expert to accept that it was classical opera,so why should we accept it as Prog Rock?

It's the same old thing-I might have great difficulty coming up with an ultimate definition of Prog Rock,but I know it when I hear it.Usually.

Prog-related maybe?

Certif1ed wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Incidentally: I thought that it was a musical, not an opera. Please be as exact as you expect your "opponents" to be.   Why do you persist with this moot point?

I'm only trying to annoy you, Cert.

Actually, after reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_opera - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_opera

I agree that JCS may be more an opera than a musical.

Don't take Wikipedia's word for it...

Buy yourself an Oxford Dictionary of Music.

It'll be your bible - unless you're a Christian, in which case, it'll be the next best thing

Jesus Christ, superstar!

What a difference punctuation can make....

Sorry -- carry on!

Certif1ed wrote: Buy yourself an Oxford Dictionary of Music. It'll be your bible - unless you're a Christian, in which case, it'll be the next best thing

Ha!

Easy Livin wrote: We should be clear about which version we are talking about though. The original with Ian Gillan as Jesus was not a soundtrack, it was released some years before the stage show or the film. As Cert says, it was a rock opera. I'd agree it should be added to the Various artists section.

I agree exactly, the original Opera was excellent, the movie soundtrack was good but the song added is really out of place, they needed one more ballad (Could we Start Again Please) to sell the movie better.

I agree with adding it in various but no way to add Lloyd Webber or any other of his works.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Easy Livin wrote: We should be clear about which version we are talking about though. The original with Ian Gillan as Jesus was not a soundtrack, it was released some years before the stage show or the film. As Cert says, it was a rock opera. I'd agree it should be added to the Various artists section. I agree exactly, the original Opera was excellent, the movie soundtrack was good but the song added is really out of place, they needed one more ballad (Could we Start Again Please) to sell the movie better. I agree with adding it in various but no way to add Lloyd Webber or any other of his works. Iván

I would add Lloyd Webber's "Variations" - it's far more compelling as a Prog Rock album than "JCS" - it's a masterpiece - and I think it could go under Various Artists too, as I do not believe for a moment that Lloyd Webber wrote every note - how could anyone score Gary Moore's amazing solos, for example?

But I wouldn't add anything else by ALW.

horza wrote: I'm washing my hands of any further involvement - if this thread is resurrected I'll have to involve Snow Dog - has anyone herod what he has to say on the matter?

^  Philistine!

Don't get all cross now, horza, but this thread will surely rise again....