I've just read the following report about Yusaf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens) being refused entry to the USA. Apparently Marillion were on the plane at the time (see link below) was diverted.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1152503,00.html - http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1152503,00.html

How can Steve Hogarth claim that Cat Stevens is a pacifist? In the Salman Rushdie debacle,Cat Stevens was in favour of killing him. Now,correct me if I'm wrong,but a pacifist wanting to kill someone simply for writing a book has surely no right to call himself a pacifist anymore?!

I am an Agnostic me! - But my wife is Catholic and my kids were brought up catholic to benefit from superior schooling. I have no problem with the religion of anybody else but have to report the hospitalization of a friend's son!

His crime - he was dating an asian girl who had fallen for his charms - he was beaten (almost to death) by a group of 12 Asians, who did'nt want him seeing the girl.......Racial hatred alive in the north of England!

I have noticed that progressive rock fans (on the whole) are usually well balanced and non-violent - Spread the gospel brothers!

Oops, sorry, I opened a can or worms with this one didn't I?

I only mentioned it because I liked the serendipity of two such disparate musical entities being lodged together on a plane. Didn't mean to start a conversation on racial prejudice.

I'll try to steer clear of contentious debate, for fear of offending anyone, but I'd like to share a few thoughts nevertheless. I've lead an extremely multi-cultural life since I left England in 1990. Having met a lot of people from all around the world it strikes me that the one thing we (mankind) trully have in common is a need to define ourselves in terms of 'who we are not'. Groups defined by the people they exclude.

The film "Independence Day" held one irrefutable truth. That being, that we will never really unite the human race untill we find another race of which we can all say "there's something different to all of us, therefore we are the same".

Having rejected the xenophobic monoculture that is (was) small-town-England, and being an ardent campaigner for racial equality, I was shocked to discover the extent of my own Englishness, thrown as it was, into sharp relief by the utter unenglishness of the people around me. Luckily, free-thinking intellectual parents had taught me long ago to love thy neighbour.

Interesting description in the linked article; "...British pop veterans Marillion,.." I'm not much of a neoprog fan, but not even I would go that far....NO WAIT! "Kayleigh", they deserve it for that alone!

Pixel Pirate wrote: How can Steve Hogarth claim that Cat Stevens is a pacifist? In the Salman Rushdie debacle,Cat Stevens was in favour of killing him. Now,correct me if I'm wrong,but a pacifist wanting to kill someone simply for writing a book has surely no right to call himself a pacifist anymore?!

You're not wrong- the 'artist' previously known as Cat Stevens should be denied entry anywhere for his mindlessly violent statements. "Peace Train" has become depressingly ironic for me.

I wouldn't say Marillion was 'pop' either...especially not to richardh 

If you think Reed, that the American government after watching the collapse of the Trade Center, should just let a guy in the country because he once sang a few rock songs...but he's on a terrorist watch list... Then how naive are you?

Cat Stevens has made some very violent statements to the press in the past. I'm with Pixel... whether or not he considers himself to be a pacifist...he sure doesn't speak the pacifist language... and I'm very glad that this government now would rather be over safe than sorry.

By the way, I watched those buildings collapse from the corner of my block... I was less than a mile away.

It's like Michael Moore never happened!

Tell me what The Twin Towers have got to do with Cat Stevens (Yousouf Islam)?

Still nibbling on them Freedom Fries?

Before you go on about insulting the Good Ole US of A or yourself for that matter, tell me, how many times did Gerry Adams visit the States or does that not count in the Land Of The Free?

Free speech, however unpalatable, should be defended by all nations. There are many,many normal, peace-loving Muslims out there who, whilst not applauding those horrific actions on that terrible day, cant understand why it is alright for their peoples to be attacked and culture vilified by Americans but when the boot is on the other foot it somehow becomes more tragic.

I was going to post about all the "Rock Stars" who have been on the FBI's list of dangers to the American Way Of Life.

But one name suffices. It is like a hammer blow to your argument and your stupid governments:

John Winston Lennon RIP

Nuff said dont you think?

Reed Lover wrote: It's like Michael Moore never happened! Tell me what The Twin Towers have got to do with Cat Stevens (Yousouf Islam)? Still nibbling on them Freedom Fries? Before you go on about insulting the Good Ole US of A or yourself for that matter, tell me, how many times did Gerry Adams visit the States or does that not count in the Land Of The Free? Free speech, however unpalatable, should be defended by all nations. There are many,many normal, peace-loving Muslims out there who, whilst not applauding those horrific actions on that terrible day, cant understand why it is alright for their peoples to be attacked and culture vilified by Americans but when the boot is on the other foot it somehow becomes more tragic.

               You're treading on dangerous political ground there. I being a republican would like to ask you.."what do you propose us to do?" Talk to any american who flies..white,black ,etc,muslin and all can tell their stories of nightmarish security at the airport..Kennedy got delayed once! Now if we want to turn a plane back because we want to protect the lives of americans on an airplane I am all for it.

I for one would rather inconvenience a few people by acting paranoid than say  "Oh what the heck are we doing? let these poor guys get on with it" and then watch the plane crash into another building. Hind sight is 20/20 and I prefer them to take no chances.

Also trust me when I say that it seems europeans take Mike Moore pretty seriously. I think he is nuts and un-american. His movie is treasonous in my eyes

You being a Republican support the genocide of your own people, never mind the rest of the world.

Us Europeans have things like The National Health Service where everyone can get treatment regardless of ability to pay. Us Europeans have had Mr Moore appearing on mainstream TV for over 20 years, we take him seriously because he backs up most of what he says with cold,hard documented fact. We like that over here.

What has you being a Republican got to do with this argument?

Didnt the atrocity happen whilst Dubya was Pres?

Maybe it wouldnt have happened if Clinton was still in The White House!

Clinton did nothing when he had the chance to. Mr Moore hasn't proven anything to most americans. His so called truth's are always stretched or half truths. How well does your National Care work? How much do you pay in taxes for it? Any american can go into a hospital and expect to get treated regardless if they can pay or not. I personally do not want national healthcare. I see no reason why I should pay for someone elses medical expenses. People need to grow up and take responsibilities for themselves.

You know what Reed Lover! Let's just end this banter here. Let us both say that we agree to disagree..I like you and I would prefer to keep it that way

Greg

Michael Moore is a propagandist freak... and guess what... I'm a democrat.

We've also had Michael Moore on American tv for longer than you guys evidently.. and all he ever did was give half truths and rearrange what truth their was to suit his own statement.  If any of you think that Columbine had anything to do with Walmart selling bullets, then you deserve to be enthused by Michael Moore. I've watched him brow beat enough teenagers into tears because they worked as receptionists for tobacco companies... he's scum.

And you comparing someone who's made threatening anti-American remarks in the media to someone on an FBI list because of drugs... just shows how small minded you really are. John Lennon actually moved here and preferred to live here. Actually maybe its too bad the FBI didn't send him back to England....but I guess if someone really wanted to find him, it wouldn't have mattered where he lived...

Love your statement on healthcare, Gdub.  Heck I worked for 14 years for the same company... and what they gave me after they laid off my entire dept. due to the 9/11 attacks... was my health insurance for life.  And I'm not paying any taxes for it...

 Hey, ya gotta love those mellotrons, eh? I mean, a keyboard that sounds like a string section -- how cool is that?

!

Peter Rideout wrote:  Hey, ya gotta love those mellotrons, eh? I mean, a keyboard that sounds like a string section -- how cool is that? !

Yeah...things got out of hand..next time you catch me talking politics feel free to stop me......

although...what 3f8ts said about M. Moore was amazing......last time(promise)

Mr.Moore is sometimes out of line and definitely stretches the truth now and then to suit his own needs but I for one am still a fan of his because he continues the long and glorious tradition of something coming out of left field and kicking the powers that be up the,er,posterior.. This tradition goes back thousands of years and it's the sign of a healthy society. Agree or disagree with him but without people like him,democracy would be in serious trouble. There are no Michael Mooore's in Iran.

As for Marillion being labelled a pop group,well to the mainstream media it's all pop music. They usually find individual distinctions a very difficult concept to handle.

The topic about USA's right to protect itself is an interesting one but i DO love those mellotrons too.

Perhaps this should be in the 'Discussions not related to music'

Political and theological discussions can be very rewarding but can also cause problems. I am registered on numerous news forums, and vent my wrath and disgust at the world there. Not here.

This is where I come to de-stress from politics, religion and war

Marillion, pop?? Nah, I dont think so. This journalist dont know sh!t !!

Phew!! I'm glad I went to beddybyes when I did!!!!

Just read this Fates and Gdub and then we will agree to differ!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14674177%26method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=cat%2dstevens%2dbranded%2da%2d%2dthreat%2dto%2damericans%2d-name_page.html - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14674177%26 method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=cat%2dstevens%2dbrande d%2da%2d%2dthreat%2dto%2damericans%2d-name_page.html

So the evil Mr Islam was about to bring down America

Its incredible how a pacifist ex-pop singer can cause a minor security alert because of his faith. But, 19 Saudis with forged ID's can take flying lessons in the US, without any checks being done, then hi-jack 4 planes and fly them into the WTC and the Pentagon withouut the CIA, NORAD or anyone else for that matter batting an eye lid.

Funny old world...

  A word to the wise: As this -- believe it or not -- is a website dedicated to progressive rock (and the goddess Mariah Carey), there is perhaps no better way to anger long-time  and new members, and cause them to leave, than to discuss (ie, argue and rant about) politics and/or religion, especially in an inflammatory fashion.

We come from all over, with differing sexual/political/religious orientations & beliefs, but we are at least united by a love of good music -- why risk dividing/destroying  our cozy little community?

I speak from experience.

Blacksword wrote: Political and theological discussions can be very rewarding but can also cause problems. I am registered on numerous news forums, and vent my wrath and disgust at the world there. Not here. This is where I come to de-stress from politics, religion and war

 Hear hear! That was more like it, Blacksword!

"We come from all over, with differing sexual/political/religious orientations & beliefs, but we are at least united by a love of good music -- why risk dividing/destroying  our cozy little community? "

I agree with my friend Peter Rideout on that.

I also agree so no more outbursts from me towards Mr.Yusuf-I-Am-Only-A-Pacifist-When-It-Suits-Me-Islam.

Peter

You've heard my last word on the subject

Beware: Politics the red rag the Blacksword bull....

You can bet your bottom dollar that this incident (the plane boss, the plane!! ) will surface in a song on a forthcomming Marillion album.

That's my prediction, you heard it here first...

Blacksword wrote: Peter You've heard my last word on the subject

Thank God! Whoops -- I mean, Thank goodness!

Reed Lover wrote: I was going to post about all the "Rock Stars" who have been on the FBI's list of dangers to the American Way Of Life. But one name suffices. It is like a hammer blow to your argument and your stupid governments: John Winston Lennon RIP Nuff said dont you think?

 Not quite RL. What sort of a pacifist was our John really? The type that supports murdering bastards perhaps?   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/649397.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/649397.stm

What happened on 9/11 was a terrible act of murder, but I hope America doesn't wear out the sympathy of the rest of the world by over playing the victim card.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1308176,00.html - http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1308176,00.html

(read the last four paragraphs to see what I mean)

Love to all on both sides of the pond.

Er..does anyone know if Marillion have played any Cat Stevens songs?

They are keen on the odd cover, I've heard them doing a version of Substitute by The Who.

Blacksword wrote: So the evil Mr Islam was about to bring down America

Evidently nothing brings down American... we just don't prefer being vulnerable anymore!

Blacksword wrote: Its incredible how a pacifist ex-pop singer can cause a minor security alert because of his faith. But, 19 Saudis with forged ID's can take flying lessons in the US, without any checks being done, then hi-jack 4 planes and fly them into the WTC and the Pentagon withouut the CIA, NORAD or anyone else for that matter batting an eye lid.

I think you got that backwards, Blacksword... it wasn't because of his faith, many muslims come and go thru our airports daily...its because of his past and the fact that Interpol has him as a terrorist financial supporter... And afterall we are still on orange alert here.. which means we can't afford to ignore any information regardless on who he was... or even who he is now.  And thats due to the hi-jacked planes... not instead of...

Its fine that we only come here to discuss wonderful music.. and funny issues like Mariah, but it saddens me to see that so many seem to be able to judge our need for protection... when it wasn't the skies falling in on them. 

And I read all your attached articles... I don't see where it means we should alter our security rules for individuals who might of been pop stars 30 years ago.

And thats my last statement on it!

Hi Threefates,

Your need for protection is not in question 3', nor is that of the rest of the world. It's the methods employed that are to my mind highly questionable. George and Tony's adventures in Iraq have done nothing to 'protect' you and I, and have only helped to polarize two cultures, and inspire more  idealistic young zealots to take up arms against us. Bush was so wrong to call these fanatics "evil". To call them evil implies they are motivated by a sadistic and sociapathic lust to cause death and suffering, just for the hell of it. The truth is their motives are born of deeply held theological beliefs, and the handling of the current debacle in the Middle East is only breeding recrutes.

We can play the isolationist game if we like, but it's a lonely path to tread. I'm put in mind of Wilde's "The Selfish Giant".

sigod wrote: Er..does anyone know if Marillion have played any Cat Stevens songs? They are keen on the odd cover, I've heard them doing a version of Substitute by The Who.

I don't know but (former It Bites vocalist/guitarist) Francis Dunnery does a great cover of Cat Stevens' Father & Son on his (almost) essential Tall Blond Helicopter album, where vocally he sound like Stevens, then Gabriel before reverting to his own voice. Have said there are vocal inflection changes, it is still a very heart-felt version recorded as a tribute to his father who had just died.

Hi Emidar.. honey

Mr. Islam being pulled off the plane doesn't really have anything to do with the war in Iraq or Mr. Bush's or Mr. Blair's methods... it has to do with homeland security... and that I'm behind.  I'm not sure about what good the war in Iraq has done or not done... I'm sure that will always be a center of debate for years to come.. and both sides will claim some sort of victory... Thats just the way that works.

I also disagree with you about their motives being born from deeply held theological beliefs.  Like every other war, they continue to use that as an excuse and it might of started that way many years ago... but that is not what it is about today.  I know many muslim clerics here in NYC.. actually I've worked with the head of the Muslim community here in NYC, Imam Al-Hajj Talib W. 'Abdur-Rashid' and we've had many discussions in regard to how non-religious these terrorist groups really are.

Its not much different than the hatred instilled in the young brought up in Northern Ireland.  Its what your bred to think, not whats really truth any longer. I spent quite a lot of time with Muslim families in Malaysia.  You should of heard what they've been led to believe about Americans.  Of course, by the time I left, they probably had a whole different idea of Americans...

threefates wrote: And thats my last statement on it!

Hi Emidar.. honey

Mr. Islam being pulled off the plane doesn't really have anything to do with the war in Iraq or Mr. Bush's or Mr. Blair's methods... it has to do with homeland security... and that I'm behind.  I'm not sure about what good the war in Iraq has done or not done... I'm sure that will always be a center of debate for years to come.. and both sides will claim some sort of victory... Thats just the way that works.

I also disagree with you about their motives being born from deeply held theological beliefs.  Like every other war, they continue to use that as an excuse and it might of started that way many years ago... but that is not what it is about today.  I know many muslim clerics here in NYC.. actually I've worked with the head of the Muslim community here in NYC, Imam Al-Hajj Talib W. 'Abdur-Rashid' and we've had many discussions in regard to how non-religious these terrorist groups really are.

Its not much different than the hatred instilled in the young brought up in Northern Ireland.  Its what your bred to think, not whats really truth any longer. I spent quite a lot of time with Muslim families in Malaysia.  You should of heard what they've been led to believe about Americans.  Of course, by the time I left, they probably had a whole different idea of Americans...

[/QUOTE]

Spoken like a true woman TreeFights.

And thats my last statement on it!

Reed Lover wrote: Spoken like a true woman TreeFights.

How would you know?

threefates wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Spoken like a true woman TreeFights. How would you know?

Arent you confusing me with someone else around here, you naughty girl..............

Reed Lover wrote: threefates wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Spoken like a true woman TreeFights. How would you know? Arent you confusing me with someone else around here, you naughty girl..............

I have a 16 yr old daughter from a 3 yr relationship with a woman when I was 19-22 yrs of age so I am not totally ignorant on the ways of women thank-you

gdub411 wrote: Reed Lover wrote: threefates wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Spoken like a true woman TreeFights. How would you know? Arent you confusing me with someone else around here, you naughty girl.............. I have a 16 yr old daughter from a 3 yr relationship with a woman when I was 19-22 yrs of age so I am not totally ignorant on the ways of women thank-you

No, I was on about that other guy honest!

Come on, folks...the heading is "Discussions not related to music", after all. Not "Discussions not related to music except anything that might arouse strong feelings". If you don't want to be over-stimulated, avoid reading topic threads that are likely to cause such a reaction. It's that simple- just change the channel if you don't like this show...'cause I'm about to rant.

I'm willing to bet that few people read my first post in this topic without thinking of 9/11...for the record, the ex-Cat Stevens has been on the sh*t list for over a decade now. No government, agency, or private residence should be criticized for denying entrance on the basis of previous violent statements.

How about this: you see someone in the street shouting incoherent violent slogans. They come to your door. You don't let them in. The rest of the neighborhood calls you names. Sound fair? Sound civilized?

How about you oh-so-fashionable anti-american folks make a reasonable point for once- maybe even cite a specific instance or fact? There's plenty in the US Government to criticize, especially in foriegn policy; instead you offer generalizations that a junior high debating tem would have little problem tearing to shreds.

For all his shortcomings we need people like Mr. Moore because traditional within-the-system opposition is about as helpful as sending a letter to your congressman. He's just the latest in the long line of muckrakers that are significantly historically responsible for improving our civil rights. Speaking of which, Phil Ochs was a folk singer- Cat Stevens was just another guy with an acoustic guitar. Now he's not even that much.

But despite the fact that most of you come from countries with escalating violence against immigrants and minorities, you find some sort of moral upper hand to attack Americans. Good trick! Why don't you bring the National Front round for tea sometime and tell me again how denying entrance to an ADMITTED FANATIC SUPPORTER OF MURDER is indicative of a failure of American judgement.

Well we know where we all stand with Cat Stevens but are Marillion a threat to world peace?

I've heard 'Holidays In Eden' and I believe that there is a case for incarceration

Well in that case you have to lock me up along with them because I think "Holidays In Eden" is quite an excellent album.

                                     here we go again!

Threefates:

Sorry if I offended you.

gdub411 wrote: I'm being chased by a Moon Grendel,Moon Grendel, Moon Grendel

Have you been on the Magic Mushrooms or am I missing something here?

Reed Lover wrote: gdub411 wrote: I'm being chased by a Moon Grendel,Moon Grendel, Moon Grendel Have you been on the Magic Mushrooms or am I missing something here?

Moon Shadow is a cat Stevens tune and Grendel is of course Marillion..I cleverly() combined the two with my powerful wit

I actually like Cat Steven's music alot

I know exactly what you mean. I can't take much of that awful whining either.

Peter Rideout wrote: There's two big reasons why I like Dolly Parton....

But you didn't say what they were Peter...

With Cat's conversion to Islam, you could say that there is a parallel with Neal Morse??

OMG!! What have I said????

Easy Livin wrote: Peter Rideout wrote: There's two big reasons why I like Dolly Parton.... But you didn't say what they were Peter...

yes, come to the point!

Some amazing ignorance being spouted here, bordering on the frankly racist. Most of the wars fought in the last 2000 years have been through theological manipulations of the words of some prophet or another - many of who were simple people.

All those born agains needing to fill vacuums in their lives and believing others should follow - Christian rock bands leave me cold, especially those using lyrics that wouldn't be out of place in a Victorian hymnal. There is a thing about some musicians needing more than their music. Todd Rundgren got his knickers in an almighty twist about his need to find a religion in the early 70's - that's what Initiation is about.  And all those Scientologists, Chick Corea (through to John Revolter). And the Beatles and Sexie Sadie. And did Richard Thompson ever renounce Islam?  Jim Page and satanism (Alistair Crowley's version). About the only thing Marx (Carl not Groucho this time) got right: religion is the opium of the people. It seems that to many musicians, the music alone wouldn't suffice and either drugs (including booze) had to be there as well. 

And btw, 'Allah' is Arabic for God.

Well,the whole mess started when the Jews invented monotheism. Polytheism which had ruled the religious roost up to then hadn't really been that bad,it was when the one God came to drive out the many gods that things turned sour pretty fast. The old testament is based almost exclusively on Judaism and the Jews had,since they left Sumer,invented more and more far fetched and ridiculous myths,chief among them a saviour of the Jewish people,the Messiah myth,and of course,the angry,vengeful and frankly,quite psychopathic god of the old testament,the kind of god that chopped your head off and boiled it in oil if you ever dared to touch your willy. The jews,admirable in so many respects, have always been a rather selfdestructive people so it's no wonder that they first invented a god and then eventually changed him into ever more terrible shapes so that they wound up petrified with fear at their own creation.

But the reason the early Christians thought it a good idea to rip off the Jewish religion and then the Muslims decided to rip off the Christians again to create Islam is more of a mystery. Perhaps mankind is just gluttons for punishment.

And some theorize that it was in fact the pharaoh Aknaten who invented monotheism and recent research points to the possibility that the Bible could be based not on Jewish legends but actual Egyptian historical events,but it's early days yet for this theory so we'll just see how it develops and whether some substantial evidence can be brought to light to support it. But whether it was Aknaten or the Jews that created monotheism,it ranks as one of the stupidest ideas in our entire history.

Pixie- its difficult to criticise what you are saying without "dissing" you! The Jewish religion did not invent monotheism. What do you consider to be sensible if monotheism is stupid?

But the reason the early Christians thought it a good idea to rip off the Jewish religion and then the Muslims decided to rip off the Christians again to create Islam is more of a mystery.

 Early Christianity was based on the Jewish faith because Jesus and his followers were Jews. As Homer would say:DOH!

gdub411 wrote: Marillion-Cat Stevens=theological debate

Of course the Cat Stevens issue is a theological debate, Greg. Instead of Reds UnderThe Bed you've now got Saracens.You just dont get it do you?

I bet you are looking under your cot right now arent you!

The religious (can you really call it 'bordering on racist', DH?) part does not really affect me one way or the other; the renounced-Cat Stevens made statements amounting to death threats against an author. Until he recants those statements and shows some indication that he's come to his senses, I feel that any country in the world has the right to deny him entrance.

Do I feel more nervous around followers of Mohammed since 9/11? Well, anyone could be a member of any religion- it doesn't show on their face. Do I get uneasy around people of obviously Arab descent? To be honest...sometimes, but it has more to do with an unpleasant taxicab ride in Chicago seven years ago than it does with the World Trade Center bombings. As we were speeding towards McCormick Place, the driver spouted such an incredible tirade of violent anti-Americanism that I became understandably eager to end the trip- and passing a taxi which had crashed and burned conjured up images of suicide crashes by fanatics. And just to repeat, this was many years before 9/11. However, the young Arab family that I run into every few days at the convenience store on the corner (wow, a paragraph full of stereotypes totally grounded in specific personal experience!) is extemely nice and funny and much more courteous than most whiteys I run into on a daily basis.

On the other hand, the previously-changed-his-name-once-already-to-Cat Stevens, no matter what his ethnic background is (Greek and Swedish Londoner, BTW), is an unstable and dangerous-sounding individual. You pay a price for speaking your mind (already some members of this forum exhibit predjudice against me for things I have posted, and I recognize that I've earned it) and the price for saying such ridiculously violent things is that some doors are now closed to him. He's backpedaled since then, neither apologizing nor recanting, but also seeing how his support for the fatwah directly impedes his pose as a supporter of humanitarian causes. And those who feel that we have expressed predjudice unjustly continue to soften the historical focus in favor of the perceived victims.

There is truth in what you say.However, how many Muslims agreed with the Fatwah but didnt go public in the media with it? Most fundimentalist Muslims I would guess! So why dont you just stop all Muslims from entering America and hedge all bets.You see what I am trying to say here?

How many American Presidents have actually signed a Foreign Leader's death warrant, so the CIA could go and bump him off? In effect murdering them theirself. What is the difference? Not all of them were dictators and tyrants.

Double standards?

Reed Lover wrote: gdub411 wrote: Marillion-Cat Stevens=theological debate Of course the Cat Stevens issue is a theological debate, Greg. Instead of Reds UnderThe Bed you've now got Saracens.You just dont get it do you? I bet you are looking under your cot right now arent you!

Reed Lover...you really think I am just a big simpleton! I understand the whole Cat Stevens thing. Theological debates just get messy..I was trying to take some of the seriousness out of the conversation because I did not like where it was heading.....

gdub411 wrote: Reed Lover wrote: gdub411 wrote: Marillion-Cat Stevens=theological debate Of course the Cat Stevens issue is a theological debate, Greg. Instead of Reds UnderThe Bed you've now got Saracens.You just dont get it do you? I bet you are looking under your cot right now arent you!   Reed Lover...you really think I am just a big simpleton! I understand the whole Cat Stevens thing. Theological debates just get messy..I was trying to take some of the seriousness out of the conversation because I did not like where it was heading.....

You didnt like where it was going?

And they give you the vote?????????

Reed Lover wrote: gdub411 wrote: Reed Lover wrote: gdub411 wrote: Marillion-Cat Stevens=theological debate Of course the Cat Stevens issue is a theological debate, Greg. Instead of Reds UnderThe Bed you've now got Saracens.You just dont get it do you? I bet you are looking under your cot right now arent you!   Reed Lover...you really think I am just a big simpleton! I understand the whole Cat Stevens thing. Theological debates just get messy..I was trying to take some of the seriousness out of the conversation because I did not like where it was heading..... You didnt like where it was going? And they give you the vote?????????

You are one mean spirited bloke...aren't ya!!

Reed Lover doesn't get enough hugs

Reed Lover wrote: There is truth in what you say.However, how many Muslims agreed with the Fatwah but didnt go public in the media with it? Most fundimentalist Muslims I would guess! So why dont you just stop all Muslims from entering America and hedge all bets.You see what I am trying to say here? How many American Presidents have actually signed a Foreign Leader's death warrant, so the CIA could go and bump him off? In effect murdering them theirself. What is the difference? Not all of them were dictators and tyrants. Double standards?

Not at all- I wouldn't feel too safe around any of the surviving US Presidents either 

But nobody has a right to travel wherever they want...you depend upon the goodwill of the destination. This isn't totally an Arab vs. Caucasian thing; this is more like scared people keeping the chain on when answering their door after a break-in. It's too bad we can't keep the doors unlocked anymore, but it's not an inherently racist thing to be nervous about specific people who have advocated violence in the past. Fearing the outsider is a fundamental human attribute that motivates each one of us in subtle or overt ways every day of our lives, no matter how cosmopolitan or civilized we think we are. Do I wish everyone could travel everywhere they want? Sure...I'd love to see quite a few historical locations in the Middle East. Would I make an issue out of the difficulties in doing that right now? Only if I was purposefully blinding myself to reality.

I'm not being naive; there's a lot of racism in the US, and a lot more anti-Arab sentiment since 9/11. I'm not advocating rounding Arab-Americans up for 'questioning' (remeber that glorious World War II? It had a pretty dark side for Asian Americans, especially on the West Coast). However, now is a bad time to try to convince people that an Islamic adherent (which I think is an overly fair description of the ex-Cat-man) poses no more danger to them than anyone else.

I don't believe there can ever be real peace and understanding between people of dramatically different faiths if those religious teachings inherently flame the primal fires of our predjudices- which all major religions do to some extent. Christianity and Islam have been at odds for longer than most of us can trace our ancestors; saying that denying entry to an advocate of violence is a moral weakness on our part just strikes me as either too close to unthinking kneejerk liberalism or too far from realistic expectations. I don't really think he posed any threat, but I also don't think that there's anything wrong with refusing to let him in.

Reed Lover wrote: There is truth in what you say.However, how many Muslims agreed with the Fatwah but didnt go public in the media with it? Most fundimentalist Muslims I would guess! So why dont you just stop all Muslims from entering America and hedge all bets.You see what I am trying to say here? How many American Presidents have actually signed a Foreign Leader's death warrant, so the CIA could go and bump him off? In effect murdering them theirself. What is the difference? Not all of them were dictators and tyrants. Double standards?

Your double standards have no relation to one another, nor do they give the correct context to even be considered.  But then, that doesn't really surprise me.

Anyway, I have friends and neighbors that are Iranians.. and just came back from Iran from visiting for a few weeks... and they dress like muslims.. and have very muslim names... Mohamed ... and got into this country just fine...

Wow.. now isn't that amazing?? I guess their names didn't pop up on some terrorist watch list... created in Europe, by a European organization....hmmmm?

We all know that Europe's one world government plan is being fronted by the Illuminati...Big Brother has you by the throat my friends

Big Brother??? Strange that the term has gone from the great, dark, overseer in Orwell's 1984 to a rather tedious reality TV show.

Question; is there a big brother TV show in the states?

Reed,that the Jews invented monotheism is a matter of historical fact. Do you have any other candidates in mind? The only recent one is Aknathen as I mentioned. Have your historical knowledge in order before you venture into a discussion on the subject. There's a reason I never get into a discussion on auto mechanics: I know nothing about it. And the intelligent alternative to monotheism is of course: No-theism.

I would recommend  "The Source" by James Michener,an excellent run through of the history of the Jews.

Pixel Pirate wrote: Reed,that the Jews invented monotheism is a matter of historical fact. Do you have any other candidates in mind? The only recent one is Aknathen as I mentioned. Have your historical knowledge in order before you venture into a discussion on the subject. There's a reason I never get into a discussion on auto mechanics: I know nothing about it. And the intelligent alternative to monotheism is of course: No-theism. I would recommend  "The Source" by James Michener,an excellent run through of the history of the Jews.

Pixie old boy- you dont seem to see the contradiction in what you are saying. I didnt back up my assertion that The Jews did not "invent" monotheism for 2 reasons:

1. You wrote:

Reed,that the Jews invented monotheism is a matter of historical fact. Do you have any other candidates in mind? The only recent one is Aknathen as I mentioned.

You can't have two originals. Rather puts a downer on your statement of fact!

2. There are hundreds of millions of Christians and Jews out there who will tell you that their GOD "invented" monotheism, by dint of being "The One True God." A moot point so to speak but valid nonetheless. Religion and Fact now there's dodgy ground if I ever saw it!

By the way, just so you know,I am an atheist. I was EDUCATED at a Catholic Boys Grammar School and if you wanna play at my degrees bigger than yours laddie, bring it on!

Touche about the monotheistic point,foiled by my own reasoning!

But since no person daring to call himself an intelligent being will question that,as someone once said, religion is a form of mental illness,the fact that millions of people believe that god created himself proves only the rather pathetic state of human minds in general and not that their assertion is a true one. Millions of people all over the world firmly believe that they are routinely abducted by aliens,but however many there are,and however convinced they are that they're right,doesn't make them right. When christianity was introduced in Greece the greek philosophers thought the christian notion of blind faith quite ridiculous since,as they said: You can't believe,you must know. In other words: The way to view the world is to gather the facts and base your views on that. Not to have a pre conceived notion and then try to force the world to conform to that notion. That has always been the religious way and it's obviously wrong,so no amount of fervent belief from any religious quarter can shake the anthropological and psychological facts that quite clearly show that man created god,not the other way round. So whoever did create monotheism,it must have been a human agency since god is part of mankind's mythology like Jupiter,Hydra,The Easter Bunny or Gandalf,and as far as I'm aware,no figment of human imagination has ever created itself,therefore the religious viewpoint is a moot one.

And,by the way,the phenomenon of religion was actually invented by our long lost  forebears,the Neanderthals about 70 000 years ago and the Neanderthals were too simple and too un-evolved to have had anything like a theology,they reacted purely instinctively,which proves quite conlusively that the origin of religion lies in simple fear of natural forces and has nothing to do with Zeus,Jupiter,God,Allah,Buddha,L.Ron Hubbard or any of the other billion forms it has since taken.

Velvetclown wrote: Well spoken Pixel !!!!

I think we've been here before...

Are you being ironic?

You Velveteen Fool you!

Pixel Pirate wrote: Touche about the monotheistic point,foiled by my own reasoning! But since no person daring to call himself an intelligent being will question that,as someone once said, religion is a form of mental illness,the fact that millions of people believe that god created himself proves only the rather pathetic state of human minds in general and not that their assertion is a true one. Millions of people all over the world firmly believe that they are routinely abducted by aliens,but however many there are,and however convinced they are that they're right,doesn't make them right. When christianity was introduced in Greece the greek philosophers thought the christian notion of blind faith quite ridiculous since,as they said: You can't believe,you must know. In other words: The way to view the world is to gather the facts and base your views on that. Not to have a pre conceived notion and then try to force the world to conform to that notion. That has always been the religious way and it's obviously wrong,so no amount of fervent belief from any religious quarter can shake the anthropological and psychological facts that quite clearly show that man created god,not the other way round. So whoever did create monotheism,it must have been a human agency since god is part of mankind's mythology like Jupiter,Hydra,The Easter Bunny or Gandalf,and as far as I'm aware,no figment of human imagination has ever created itself,therefore the religious viewpoint is a moot one. And,by the way,the phenomenon of religion was actually invented by our long lost  forebears,the Neanderthals about 70 000 years ago and the Neanderthals were too simple and too un-evolved to have had anything like a theology,they reacted purely instinctively,which proves quite conlusively that the origin of religion lies in simple fear of natural forces and has nothing to do with Zeus,Jupiter,God,Allah,Buddha,L.Ron Hubbard or any of the other billion forms it has since taken.

PIXIE- your writing is very articulate. You should,however, get out of the habit of trying to pass off speculation as fact. Tell me once and for all conclusively how you know EXACTLY what Neanderthals did or didnt believe. Who had the first montheistic society. THIS IS SPECULATION!!!!!

Tell me conclusively that there is no God!

As I said I am a convinced atheist,and I too am frustrated by all the duplicity in organised religion and that God is just a metaphor for things we cant explain.But as I said these are things we can't explain!

Can you imagine God creating Velvetclown ???????? I rest my case !!

Velvetclown wrote: Can you imagine God creating Velvetclown ???????? I rest my case !!

If God hadn't created him, someone would have to invent him!

I think I could make a better case for VC inventing god rather than vice versa...

...they're both completely fictional with a profound but twisted sense of humor

As for who invented monotheism,that's the easy one. How do we know that Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb? Because no lightbulbs existed before him. How do we know the Jews invented monotheism? Because no such concept existed before Judeaism. (Let's forget about the pharaohs for now,too needlessly complicated).

As far as the case for the existance of god goes. Of course I can't deny that there might exist in the universe some force of some kind that we might,for want of a better word,call god. I'm obviously not denying that,no one can. What I am denying,completely and emphatically based on the mass of evidence at hand,is that the god of the christian bible is real. It has MYTHOLOGICAL written all over it in bright flashing neon letters.

And who had the first monotheistic society or what the neanderthals did is most certainly not speculation. What do think historians,anthropologists and archeologists do for a living? But the topic is vast and cannot possibly be contained within the confines of a discussion forum on a website so I can only point you in the direction of the following books:

"When The Gods Came Down" by Alan Alford.

"The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

"The Secrets Of The Exodus" by Messod and Roger Sabbah

"From Atlantis To The Sphinx" by Colin Wilson

And of course the religious criticisms of Nietzsche,Freud,Bertrand Russel and H.L.Mencken.

And as a counterweight,two intelligent and enlightened arguments in favour of the existance of a god:

"God's Secret Formula" by Peter Plichta

"The Infinite Harmony:Musical Structures In Science And Theology" by Michael Hayes.

This is not to come across as all snooty and intellectually snobbish,just to emphasise once again that this subject is huge and falls way outside the confines of a little discussion forum on prog rock website.

Is there any real debate? Judaism was most definitely the first major monotheistic religion. Is someone saying otherwise? I'll beat 'em up for you

Pixel Pirate wrote: As for who invented monotheism,that's the easy one. How do we know that Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb? Because no lightbulbs existed before him. How do we know the Jews invented monotheism? Because no such concept existed before Judeaism. (Let's forget about the pharaohs for now,too needlessly complicated). As far as the case for the existance of god goes. Of course I can't deny that there might exist in the universe some force of some kind that we might,for want of a better word,call god. I'm obviously not denying that,no one can. What I am denying,completely and emphatically based on the mass of evidence at hand,is that the god of the christian bible is real. It has MYTHOLOGICAL written all over it in bright flashing neon letters. And who had the first monotheistic society or what the neanderthals did is most certainly not speculation. What do think historians,anthropologists and archeologists do for a living? But the topic is vast and cannot possibly be contained within the confines of a discussion forum on a website so I can only point you in the direction of the following books: "When The Gods Came Down" by Alan Alford. "The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy "The Secrets Of The Exodus" by Messod and Roger Sabbah "From Atlantis To The Sphinx" by Colin Wilson And of course the religious criticisms of Nietzsche,Freud,Bertrand Russel and H.L.Mencken. And as a counterweight,two intelligent and enlightened arguments in favour of the existance of a god: "God's Secret Formula" by Peter Plichta "The Infinite Harmony:Musical Structures In Science And Theology" by Michael Hayes. This is not to come across as all snooty and intellectually snobbish,just to emphasise once again that this subject is huge and falls way outside the confines of a little discussion forum on prog rock website.

Archeologists and Anthropologists  they never speculate?

As for Colin Wilson? Alan Alford? Roger effing Sabbah!

This is some kind of wind up right?

Needless to say these "experts" should keep their speculation for the Fortean Times! To mention these people in any half-serious debate is just well......

threefates wrote: Geez... God must really be proud at how smart all of you think you have become...

I'm pretty sure that I'm not smart enough to understand that comment

When I was a kid, my parents were devout Southern Baptists, and we had a group of older, very opinionated men

(deacons in our church). One of them, every Sunday was assigned the ending prayer for the sermon. 

 Most would go on and on.. till you could hear half the church snoring.  My mother use to say that they were the type

 that just loved to hear themselves talk...

So here I think my mother would say... ya'll just love to watch yourselves type....

Now James, if you need the northern translation on that, you just let me know...