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Meatloaf

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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16806
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 02:42
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Topic: Meatloaf

Posted By: Alpine Jones
Subject: Meatloaf
Date Posted: December 31 2005 at 16:28

I think Meatloaf/Jim Steinman deserve to be on this site. They have some
really cool songs. Jim Steinman writes some good rock opera. They only
have 2 studio albums, but they're worth a listen.

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Replies:

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: December 31 2005 at 16:42

Hmmm....I suppose if you were really, really, really pushing to categorise Meatloaf as prog, the one song 'Bat Out Of Hell' has a tinge of it, but not enough to really go the whole hog and call it full blown prog. As for the rest of their output?? Sure, it's overblown and gargantuan but this doesn't really equal prog. Meatloaf only made one album of any real worth- the debut 'Bat Out Of Hell'- which is really just heavy rock mixed with pop. The rest of it had all of the bombast, but none of the charm...

Posted By: GPFR
Date Posted: December 31 2005 at 17:52

No, Just No! I... NO! They can not be!! No... Rock opera's do not make someone prog! Nor do cool songs! There too... unproggy.

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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: January 01 2006 at 01:44

GPFR wrote:

No, Just No! I... NO! They can not be!! No... Rock opera's do not make someone prog! Nor do cool songs! There too... unproggy.

i share your views...

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 01 2006 at 02:28

I always mention him as one of my favorite artists, and I really believe Jim Steinman's piano compositions are very proggy sometimes.

BUT NO WAY, Meatloaf is hardrock/Country/Rockabilly all mixed.

Very talented, incredible voice but not even Prog Related.

Iván

PS: I like Bat Out of Hell II much more than the first one.

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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 01 2006 at 05:18

ivan_2068 wrote:

I always mention him as one of my favorite artists, and I really believe Jim Steinman's piano compositions are very proggy sometimes.

BUT NO WAY, Meatloaf is hardrock/Country/Rockabilly all mixed.

Very talented, incredible voice but not even Prog Related.

Iván

PS: I like Bat Out of Hell II much more than the first one.

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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 01 2006 at 09:19

Bat Out Of Hell is one of the albums that made my years as a teen ager, and I thought everyoneof these songs were written for me personally

I love it , but outside of Steiman's first solo qalbum, I never found that samegrace after or sibe.

Not prog, though!

Prog-related maybe, because there are a lot of things going on in the music

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prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
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Posted By: Cygnus X-1
Date Posted: January 01 2006 at 12:35

No!!!!

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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: January 01 2006 at 14:45

No. Just... no.

Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: January 01 2006 at 16:45

Cygnus X-1: Even with its four exclamation marks, your 'no' to Meatloaf looks really feeble compared to the 'yes' in your sig

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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun

Posted By: Dragon Phoenix
Date Posted: January 02 2006 at 08:59

Bat out of hell would be in my top 10 albums, but prog? Maybe the title track of that album, as suggested before. The rest: no.

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Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: January 02 2006 at 09:17

Meatloaf deserves to be in the Archives as much as Queen, Jethro Tull and ELO.

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Bigger on the inside.

Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 02 2006 at 09:35

Kotro wrote:

Meatloaf deserves to be in the Archives as much as Queen, Jethro Tull and ELO.

Well ELO arent here...but Tull!!!! If Thick as a Brick or Passion Play aint prog, then prog doesnt exist!

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 02 2006 at 20:48

Kotro wrote:

Meatloaf deserves to be in the Archives as much as Queen, Jethro Tull and ELO.

WHAT??????????

Queen maybe is a bit forced, but their first album and Bohenmian Rhaosoidy are very Proggy.
Jethro Tull????????? What have you smoked in New Year??? Jethro is one of the icons of Progressive Rock.
ELO: It's not even in Prog Archives

Meatloaf has one Proggy song in his wholñe career and it's "I Would Do Anything for Love (But I Won't Do That)" Jim Steinman's piano is absolutely proggy, great changes and Meatloaf's voce fit perfectly, but when you add Mrs Loud (Lorraine Crosby) absolutely incredible voice, you got a Prog Mini Opera.

But one song isn't enough to be Prog or even Prog Related.

Iván

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Posted By: Trotsky
Date Posted: January 02 2006 at 21:35

ivan_2068 wrote:

Kotro wrote:

Meatloaf deserves to be in the Archives as much as Queen, Jethro Tull and ELO.

WHAT??????????

Queen maybe is a bit forced, but their first album and Bohenmian Rhaosoidy are very Proggy.
Jethro Tull????????? What have you smoked in New Year??? Jethro is one of the icons of Progressive Rock.
ELO: It's not even in Prog Archives

But one song isn't enough to be Prog or even Prog Related.

Iván

Just a small pedantic opinion ... but I'd say that the actual song Bat Out Of Hell is the most proggy track he's done ...

but yes even with selective discography I probably wouldn't add Meatloaf here

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"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."

Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 04:29

Snow Dog wrote:

Kotro wrote:

Meatloaf deserves to be in the Archives as much as Queen, Jethro Tull and ELO.

Well ELO arent here...

Not so fast, young Skywalker... http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=2259 - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAN D.asp?band_id=2259

And there is a LOT that is really progressive about Meatloaf/Steinman's offerings - the 1st "Bat..." LP is packed with amazing arrangements that Steinman brought from his Broadway background. It's hugely underestimated, IMO - the later Meatloaf stuff is generally watered-down in comparison.

Yes, the core is Rock and Roll, but the over-the-top orchestrations lift it way above standard Rock - that much is blatantly obvious.

Yes the tunes are accessible - but don't confuse inaccessibility with Prog Rock.

I would have been hesitant about their inclusion here before I saw that ELO had made it, but now it seems logical.

Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 04:45

ivan_2068 wrote:

Kotro wrote:

Meatloaf deserves to be in the Archives as much as Queen, Jethro Tull and ELO.

WHAT??????????

Queen maybe is a bit forced, but their first album and Bohenmian Rhaosoidy are very Proggy.
Jethro Tull????????? What have you smoked in New Year??? Jethro is one of the icons of Progressive Rock.
ELO: It's not even in Prog Archives

But one song isn't enough to be Prog or even Prog Related.

Iván

I'm still a bit pissed that JT (who I absolutely adore) are in the archives when other more blatant and dare I say better Folk-Prog groups were left out... Like Alan Stivell and Tri Yann (or anything to come out of Bretagne, for that matter), not to mention Steeleye Span...

And yeah, I smoked a bit between Christmas and New Year's...

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Bigger on the inside.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 11:47

Kotro wrote:

I'm still a bit pissed that JT (who I absolutely adore) are in the archives when other more blatant and dare I say better Folk-Prog groups were left out... Like Alan Stivell and Tri Yann (or anything to come out of Bretagne, for that matter), not to mention Steeleye Span...

There's a difference, Jethro Tull is not a 100% Folk Prog band, Jethro has a lot of other components (Blues oriented Fusion and clear Simphonic), Jethro is one of those bands that should be included in two or more categories.

Jethro is a first line Prog band as Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, ELP ,etc, it's not fair to compare them with a Rock/Disco band with orchestral arrangements like ELO, that if ever is included (Cert, I believe it's only being discussed by now, their inclusion is not definitive) will be in Prog Related as much.

I love Steeleye Span but they are Celtic Folk, nothing less and nothing more, they don't have a Prog component like other Folk Celtic bands like Fairport Convention that will be included, the same goes for Alan Stivel and I can't give an opinion about Tri-Yann because never heard them.

And yeah, I smoked a bit between Christmas and New Year's..

Good for you, I only been with my old friend the booze.

Iván

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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 12:18

Certif1ed wrote:

Snow Dog wrote:

Kotro wrote:

Meatloaf deserves to be in the Archives as much as Queen, Jethro Tull and ELO.

Well ELO arent here...

Not so fast, young Skywalker... http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAND.asp?band_id=2259 - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_BAN D.asp?band_id=2259

My statement was made before their inclusion. And that inclusion itself ewas taken on by one person. No discussion was involved. I will put Meat Loaf on the list however.

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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 14:38

Snow Dog wrote:

My statement was made before their inclusion. And that inclusion itself ewas taken on by one person. No discussion was involved. I will put Meat Loaf in the bin,however.

Nice one Snowy...

However,to me,Bat Out Of Hell is prog-related.Much as I despise it,it has as much progginess as Queen or Supertramp's best offerings.

Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 15:42

Tony R wrote:

However,to me,Bat Out Of Hell is prog-related.Much as I despise it,it has as much progginess as Queen or Supertramp's best offerings.

Hardly - Bat... is no Queen II or Crime of the Century.

But I'd rather listen to it than DISCO VERY...

Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 16:08

Certif1ed wrote:

But I'd rather listen to it than DISCO VERY...

I have to admit that I've seen them live....

Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 17:19

Them?

You mean Van Morrison?

I didn't think you were that old...

Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 17:51

Well I have seen them on the road!

Posted By: Yanns
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 19:29

I apologize that some of you don't like the inclusion of ELO. Yes, albums from about Out of the Blue on are very poppy, but listen to Eldorado and other songs from that same period.

But MEATLOAF??? Come on.

Bat Out of Hell (the album) is among my top 15 easily. But absolutely NOT PROG.

Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 02:49

Why is Bat absolutely not Prog? I don't think that is true.

Why is Bat... less prog than Eldorado?

It has orchestrations - although more of piano and guitar than a couple of violins and a cello - and the orchestrations and arrangements of Steinman are more imaginative and complex than those of Lynne.

"Bat..." is undeniably MORE prog than "Out of the Blue", "Discovery", "Time", "A New World Record", "Xanadu" and a whole load of other ELO offerings I could mention.

*If I really thought that adding ELO was such a bad idea, trust me - you'd know about it

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 06:05

I think that Bat might qualify as an early kind of Progressive Pop ... popular music composed in a progressive way. It is designed to seem simplistic, similarly to the Neo Prog genre, but the complexity is there. The music is full of art-music elements.

However, I don't think that Meat Loaf was ever considered to be a Prog Rock artist by his fans or the press, and because of that it would be wrong to add him ... even when his music suggests otherwise. After all, Prog Rock is a phrase with both historical and musical implications, and both of these aspects must be taken into account.

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Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 06:12

No

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CYMRU AM BYTH

Posted By: Yanns
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 06:48

Certif1ed wrote:

Why is Bat absolutely not Prog? I don't think that is true.

Why is Bat... less prog than Eldorado?

"Bat..." is undeniably MORE prog than "Out of the Blue", "Discovery", "Time", "A New World Record", "Xanadu" and a whole load of other ELO offerings I could mention.

*If I really thought that adding ELO was such a bad idea, trust me - you'd know about it

at that last statement there.

I see what you mean. However, the whole concept album mystique of Eldorado, with the string themes and all throughout, makes it prog, for me at least. Bat... I just don't see as prog. It's just a matter of taste. I grew up with the album, I know it like the back of my hand. I just don't think it's prog. Really really really really good popular music from 1977. Tood Rundgren produced it. That also makes it fantastic.

Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 16:23

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Not at all similar to Neo Prog, in fact;

It's not designed to be simplistic - it's designed to be bombastic and over the top with theatrical flourishes more akin to Prog Metal - except with greater compositional skills, especially with regards to form and complexity.

It's designed to be accessible, which is what it does have in common with some Neo Prog - but it's not pop music any more than Genesis were when they wrote "Trespass".

I don't think King Crimson, Genesis, Pink Floyd or a whole number of other bands were considered Prog Rock at the time either - people still scoff at Queen, Radiohead - and even Pink Floyd on occasion.

I've also yet to hear any Prog metal that has anything to do with Prog Rock, except, maybe, some borrowed ideas from Floyd or even Yes.

But I doubt that any of this will be taken into account...

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 16:38

Certif1ed wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Not at all similar to Neo Prog, in fact;

It is simplistic by my definition. Unskilled listeners would hear the "theatrical flourishes", but not necessarily think of them as complex. However, people listening to Stravinsky or similarly complex compositions would recognize the complexity immediately.

It's designed to be accessible, which is what it does have in common with some Neo Prog - but it's not pop music any more than Genesis were when they wrote "Trespass".

It is pop because people who normally don't like prog, classical or jazz listen to it. It is popular music, and that's what the term "pop" implies.

Ok, let's put it another way: Most people would not have put Meat Loaf and Genesis in the same genre.

I've also yet to hear any Prog metal that has anything to do with Prog Rock, except, maybe, some borrowed ideas from Floyd or even Yes.

I'm not going there ... been there, done that. Just let me rephrase your statement:

"No Prog Metal has anything to do with Prog Rock, except for borrowing ideas from classic prog rock bands".

I leave it to the informed reader to decide if this statement makes any sense. Suffice it to say that I believe that most prog metal has much to do with prog rock.

But I doubt that any of this will be taken into account...

Neither do I.

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Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 16:50

I'm surprised there's this agreement among prog fans that "Bat Out Of Hell" is a good album. The album has no subtly, it's just an obnoxious, in your face, barrage of sound that after maybe the second or third listen, compels you to attack the source of the sound or flee from it. Meat Loaf? Do you remember those mediocre "rock anthems" blaring out of the FM radios over and over to the point of a nausea? I do. Meat Loaf had his day. There's no point trying to claim it has "classic" status. It doesn't.

"I wanna know right now.... I wanna know right now...." Ugh!

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"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 16:59

^ why are you linking the quality and the prog status? there is no connection ...

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Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 17:12

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ why are you linking the quality and the prog status? there is no connection ...

No, I just mean those who have refined prog tastes should know low quality when they hear it regardless of the genre...

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"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."

Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 04 2006 at 17:28

Well, calling Jim Steinman compositions "low quality" ... I won't do that. Anybody's entitled to their own opinion though.

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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 05 2006 at 03:34

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Not at all similar to Neo Prog, in fact;

I'm not sure about that - I know plenty of people who just like Stravinsky and don't even reliase that the music is complex - and why should they?

I also know plenty of people that think that Mozart was somehow a "simple" composer... Hopefully, since this year commemorates 250 years since Mozart was born, there should be plenty of education available regarding his genius.

It's designed to be accessible, which is what it does have in common with some Neo Prog - but it's not pop music any more than Genesis were when they wrote "Trespass".

It is pop because people who normally don't like prog, classical or jazz listen to it. It is popular music, and that's what the term "pop" implies.

Yes, and so is Dark Side of the Moon (among others), which is partly why some of the "hard core" progholes have a problem accepting DSOTM. That doesn't mean it's not Prog though.

Ok, let's put it another way: Most people would not have put Meat Loaf and Genesis in the same genre.

Most people wouldn't put Supertramp, Hawkwind, Dream Theater and Genesis in the same genre.

I've also yet to hear any Prog metal that has anything to do with Prog Rock, except, maybe, some borrowed ideas from Floyd or even Yes.

I'm not going there ... been there, done that. Just let me rephrase your statement:

"No Prog Metal has anything to do with Prog Rock, except for borrowing ideas from classic prog rock bands".

I leave it to the informed reader to decide if this statement makes any sense. Suffice it to say that I believe that most prog metal has much to do with prog rock.

It has far more to do with metal/standard rock - it's closer to Metallica than it is to Gentle Giant.

But I doubt that any of this will be taken into account...

Neither do I.

Still, whiles away a dull morning...

bluetailfly wrote:

"I wanna know right now.... I wanna know right now...." Ugh!

Has no subtlety - what, like Meshuggah does, you mean? Or Uriah Heep? Or ELP?

The fact that Meatloaf's songs turned into FM Rock Anthems or whatever is hardly Steinman's fault - he couldn't choose what was going to happen to his music. Those same FM stations are responsible for overplaying a large number of classics - but that does not stop them from being classics, in fact it underscores the fact.

"Every little thing she does... She does for me" UGH!!!

"Ooooh, what a lucky man he was... Ooooh, what a lucky man he was" UGH!!!

Posted By: Dragon Phoenix
Date Posted: January 05 2006 at 05:22

bluetailfly wrote:

"I wanna know right now.... I wanna know right now...." Ugh!

I'm surprised that some people still don't understand that their own assessment of the quality of music is not the universal truth.

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