Absolutely not!

Sorry but i don't agree with you.

I Don't Think Punk Can Be All That Progressive. Then It Would'nt Be Punk Anymore Would It??

Some American Bands Today Have Been Given The Name "Punk" But Just Don't Deserve It, They Stand For Nothing And Seem So Effortless!! (Green Day) However I Do Like Some Of The Old British Punk Bands, Ha, Now That I Think, I'm Not Sure But I Might Have Heard That Johnny Rotten Is A Van Der Graaf Fan

Not That I Like The Sex Pistols Much, Ha.

There is some decent punk rock out there, such as The Ramones and Sex Pistols.  Punk rock is/was basically anti-prog.  But that doesn't make it bad - just puts it opposite prog.  So don't expect long solos, long songs, or lots of keyboards.

Could the dead kennedys have written Chamber Of 32 Doors?

Could genesis have written Hellnation?

I love punk and PR. The main difference being that the best punk hits you immediatley and you have a great time with your pals while PR  is more about giving your entire attention to a piece of music and marvelling at the amount of work put in and, yes, sometimes enduring boring bits.

But there can be few more annoying things than the automatic response : 'They are up their own arse'. Just because it  requires attentive listening.

Sometimes I'm made to feel as if being into PR is some form of mental illness.

The real problem lies with those who disrespect things they can't be bothered trying to understand.

Punk isn't bad if you listen with an open mind.

Of course a big part of punk was that it was not prog or arena rock, etc. By this, prog punk is almost by definition not possible.

I think that if anyone looks hard enough, you can find examples of prog in any genure of music. 

For example, for punk songs that explore their song material and are (reasonably) lengthy, there is PIL.  The mars volta (esp. ... comatorium) is mentioned a lot, but thats because a year or so before, most of the members were in a 'punk' band called '...at the drive in' (to which i quite enjoyed).

Interesting punk bands can include 'Magazine' (for example). 

Then there is the enigma of New Order/Joy Division.  Yes they were/are one band, but one was punk and the other was (until recently) new wave... How would you determin it... and then there are the punk bands that went genre hopping without even changing their sound.... bands like 'wire' and 'front 242'....

The 'rules' that determine genres and sub-genres are confusing and very fuzzy, and one really shouldnt put strict rules on what is prog, punk, or otherwise... besides, one of progs awesome features is that it blurs the rules and conceptions of the musical landscape... but then again, would music that has energy and something to say be progressive, whether or not it is punk...

C what i mean...

Im pretty sure, however, that most of us has an understanding of what prog is within themselves, and have a slightly different understanding about it if we had to explain it to the 'uninitiated'.  Personally, i think 'short, fast, and loud' isnt the same as 'complex interplay with musicians and lyrics'.  But, hey, beauty is in the ear of the listener.

Enjoy.

matti meikäläin wrote: if joy division is punk it must be progressive punk. any way it is amazing band, perhaps more 80' s new wave. mars volta has some punk influences especially on de loused in the comatorium

They are Post Punk, which is hardly the same thing.

Rashikal wrote: coheed and cambria, 3, the mars volta are examples of prog-punk. you 40 year old genesis-worshippers need to open your minds.

You just made yourself look like a prick, congratulations!

Punk is actually a good style of music, or was. But modern 'punk' has lost its roots, and has inevitably become a joke to more complex music fans. Punk is actually one of the truest forms of rock music, in that it isn't really about complex lyrics, or meanings, just the pure enjoyment of the sometimes rebellious, sometimes fun music. But, what modern 'punk' bands have become is the worst transformation of any musical genre there is.

For instance, The Ramones lyrics: "I wanna be sedated"
Simple Plan lyrics: "How could this happen to me?"

Now punk is as crap as rap.

Gentle Ronnie wrote: Rashikal wrote: coheed and cambria, 3, the mars volta are examples of prog-punk. you 40 year old genesis-worshippers need to open your minds. You just made yourself look like a prick, congratulations!

As a 40 year old guy who kind of worships Genesis and has been guilty of a closed mind now and then... It's kind of chillingly accurate post when you consider it's immediately after a comment of mine.

Prog Punk Bands

Pere Ubu

The Cardiacs

Wire

Swell Maps

The Stranglers

The Pop Group

The Fall

The Birthday Party

Television

Nomeansno

Primus

Inner City Unit

Butthole Surfers

Listen To These Bands And Tell Me There Not Progresive

Someone earlier mentioned Primus as prog punk!!!
Maybe prog, but deffinitly not punk! Anyway, I don't think there can be prog punk, because if it was really complex and long or anything, it would no longer be punk.

I hate punk, by the way.

Gentle Ronnie wrote: matti meikäläin wrote: if joy division is punk it must be progressive punk. any way it is amazing band, perhaps more 80' s new wave. mars volta has some punk influences especially on de loused in the comatorium They are Post Punk, which is hardly the same thing.

Can someone explain this post-punk thing, I dont quite get it. a lot of stuff i listen to is deemed post-punk, like I dont get it at all whats so post and what makes it punk?

Hemispheres wrote: Prog Punk Bands Pere Ubu The Cardiacs Wire Swell Maps The Stranglers The Pop Group The Fall The Birthday Party Television Nomeansno Primus Inner City Unit Butthole Surfers Listen To These Bands And Tell Me There Not Progresive

All of them a lot more interesting than anything released by Yes, Genesis or Pink Floyd after 1980.

As for prog punk - try Ruins, who blend hard core punk with prog musicianship to amazing effect.

Syzygy wrote: Hemispheres wrote: Prog Punk Bands Pere Ubu The Cardiacs Wire Swell Maps The Stranglers The Pop Group The Fall The Birthday Party Television Nomeansno Primus Inner City Unit Butthole Surfers Listen To These Bands And Tell Me There Not Progresive All of them a lot more interesting than anything released by Yes, Genesis or Pink Floyd after 1980. As for prog punk - try Ruins, who blend hard core punk with prog musicianship to amazing effect.

I Agree these bands are more progresive as in progressing music to something new and innovative than 70% of the bands listed on this site sorry it is true

does anybody hear like Crass i wouldnt say they are prog at all  but they have a kind of noise experimental side and i think some of it reminds me of Gong for some reason

Dick Heath wrote: ANDREW wrote: Absolutely not! Sorry but i don't agree with you. Sorry Andrew, such comments piss me off and provoke the reaction:  you haven't heard enough prog or understand what it is about!  Prog fans shouldn't be so close minded - prog musicians aren't: Live in Concert [Live]   http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=music&field-artist=Stranglers%2C%20the%20%26%20Friends/203-4524732-2158327 - The Stranglers & Friends  (Artist) 1. Introduction - Jet Black, The Stranglers 2. (Get A) Grip (On Yourself) - Hazel O'Connor, Robert Smith, The Stranglers 3. Hanging Around - Hazel O'Connor, Robert Smith, The Stranglers 4. Tank - Robert Fripp, Peter Hammill, The Stranglers 5. Threatened - Robert Fripp, The Stranglers 6. Toiler on the Sea - Phil Daniels, Robert Fripp, The Stranglers 7. Raven - Basil Gabbidon, Peter Hammill, The Stranglers 8. Dead Loss Angeles - Phil Daniels, Wilko Johnson, The Stranglers 9. Nice 'N' Sleazy - Basil Gabbidon, The Stranglers, Nicky Tesco, Nik Turner 10. Bring on the Nubiles - Richard Jobson, Wilko Johnson, The Stranglers 11. Peaches - Ian Dury, Wilko Johnson, Davey Payne, The Stranglers, Toyah Wilcox 12. Bear Cage - Ian Dury, Mathieu Hartley, Wilko Johnson, Davey Payne, The Stranglers, 13. Duchess - The Stranglers, Toyah Wilcox 14. No More Heroes - Richard Jobson, The Stranglers 15. Five Minutes - Richard Jobson, The Stranglers, Larry Wallis 16. Something Better Change - Steve Hillage, The Stranglers, Toyah Wilcox 17. Down in the Sewer - Jake Burns, Jake Burns & The Big Wheel, Phil Daniels, Ian Dury, Robert Fripp, Basil Gabbidon, Peter Hammill, The Stranglers

Just reminded myself that the late great Ian Drury, although dubbed 'punk pub rock' originally, continued the traditions of the British musical hall into pop and rock, very much as Genesis and many other prog bands did. He and his co-writer, were also heaviliy influenced by jazz: Sex & Drugs & Rock'n'Roll, has a bass riff directly lifted from an Ornette Coleman tune.

Further. Chris Spedding, from being in a seminal jazz rock group Nucleus, formed Sharks (rock blues with a West Indian feel) with Andy Frazer (ex. Free), is found on Roy Harper's progressist album HQ (having replaced Dave Gilmour - Bill Bruford is there too) and then his session work took him to work with the Sex Pistols. It's claimed the first single by that band released, in fact has an opening riff invented by Spedding. Spedding was attracted by punk to the extend he worked with the Vibrators and had a few hits himself, e.g Get Outta My Pagoda.

XTC appeared on the back on punk (Making Plans For Nigel was a major punk hit in the UK), and look at the praise they get on this site. The Police also appeared with the rise of punk, and look at their roots: Soft Machine, Curved Air and a NE English touring jazz  rock group - they evolved regatta d'blanc (aka 'blue eyed reggae') at the height of punk, a form of which Rush experimental with after Police folded.

And check out who is supporting John Lydon on post-punk PIL's Compact Disc.

Dick Heath wrote: Dick Heath wrote: [QUOTE=ANDREW] Absolutely not! Sorry but i don't agree with you. And check out who is supporting John Lydon on post-punk PIL's Compact Disc.

oooh oohh...sir...sir......I know this......its Steve Vai sir!

Snow Dog wrote: Dick Heath wrote: Dick Heath wrote: [QUOTE=ANDREW] Absolutely not! Sorry but i don't agree with you. And check out who is supporting John Lydon on post-punk PIL's Compact Disc.   oooh oohh...sir...sir......I know this......its Steve Vai sir!

Problem is the liner note give you zilch - and it is Lydon least favourite album. However, with Vai, add Ginger Baker (and a couple rumours suggest Tony Williams), Jonas Hellborg - e.g. part of the musical collective Bill Laswell (i.e. Compact Disc's producer), had on his label Axiom and Jonas Hellborg had on his label Day Eight Music! In other words, musicians you don't normally associate with punk!

Dick Heath wrote: spo1977 wrote: The Damned is great punk. Check out Machine Gun Ettiquette, Black Album, Strawberries, Phantasmagoria. Is it prog? no, but who cares? Captain Sensible is on record as a devoted Soft Machine fan

And he makes some great music himself. Like his 1989 album Revolution Now! with even a 15 minute - epic! One of the many cross-fertilizations between prog and punk.

Moogtron III wrote: Dick Heath wrote: spo1977 wrote: The Damned is great punk. Check out Machine Gun Ettiquette, Black Album, Strawberries, Phantasmagoria. Is it prog? no, but who cares? Captain Sensible is on record as a devoted Soft Machine fan And he makes some great music himself. Like his 1989 album Revolution Now! with even a 15 minute - epic! One of the many cross-fertilizations between prog and punk.

What about on the Damned Black Album they did a 17 minute epic called curtain call but honestly i didnt really enjoy maybe if i gave it more time but i think machine gun ettiquette is one of the best albums of all time and definetly the best early british punk album imo that album has more psyhc influences like early Soft Machine,Love,The Doors amd other boys i love that album you gys should check it out if you havent already

Hey guys, Punk was created as a reaction against Prog', all their official sites  bash Prog', they are against anything lñonger han three minutes or three chords.

I never saw a prog', blues, jazz or pop site wasting their space in writting against the other genres. Yes in forums there's a lot of that, but never in an official site.

When Dinosaurs Roamed The Earth... Know thine enemy. While Glam at least was proving some light relief from bands who had grown massive like the Stones, Who and Led Zeppelin there were an even more pretentious wave of bands who espoused the view that rock was serious and who were dominating the serious weekly music papers. Prog-Rock was  mostly listened to by grubby polytechnic students who wore flares and dufflecoats and never had any girlfriends and who would sit cross-legged at gigs on the floor bonged out of their brains. They would gather in bedsits drinking coffee out of chipped mugs and ponder the meaning of the universe while listening to Yes, Van Der Graaf Generator, Camel, Gentle Giant, Caravan, Greenslade and a thousand others. These people knew what they wanted ..lots of windswept guitar histrionics, gushing key boards, lyrics full of mystical allusions and song titles bearing no relation to the music and almost as long as the music itself ! As you read these you can see why punk had to happen. Weighed own by the weight of its own pretensions the scene was set for someone to point out that the emperor in fact had no clothes on. Read on and learn the horrible truth..........

What serious site would write this crap to promote themselves as the salvation of themusical world? If it wasn't for forums, probably you won't see the word Punk in Progressive sites, because we are sure enough of our taste to worry abouit the rest and waste valuable space in criticizing the rest of the world.

They call us the enemy, most of us don't even care enough about them to consider Punk as an enemy.

Genesis   Were a full blown prog-rock band, inspired by musical bluster and arcane philosophies, capable of churning out as much barking  nonsense as any of their early Seventies contemporaries, including the magnificently daft Yes. Under the direction of the consummately eccentric Peter Gabriel, Genesis indulged  in all manner of theatrical buffoonery and special effects. While the group turned on the pomp and pyrotechnics, Gabriel would nonce around the stage in a variety of costumes as illustrated. The peak of their absolute foolishness came with the Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, a virtually incomprehensible narrative about spiritual awakening spread over a double album. beloved of sixth formers with long hair and greycoats who had too much time on their hands. Emerson, Lake And Palmer.  Even the name sounds like a gang of lawyers or estate agents.  They were prog rocks most vulgar trawler men. Their first public appearance, at the Isle of Wight Festival was prefaced by a thunderous cannonade loud enough to wake the long time dead. This was an appropriate fanfare for a group that would be become internationally famous for its bombastic extravagance. ELP produced the ugliest music the world  has yet to endure "Pictures at an Exhibition", Brain Salad Surgery and even a triple live album of dross. Everything they did as dragged own by the weight of their own bloated pretensions, their vivid idiocy, the stupifying grossness that was their unique contribution to early seventies rock. Tipping over a Hammond and stabbing it with a knife to make distorted sounds does not excitement make. For the punter so far back he can see f**k all it might as well be a baboon jumping down on the keyboards.  Unable to come up with anything resembling a decent tune, they regularly vandalised the classics sending several dead Europeans spinning in their graves. The ridiculousness of their music is just so far fetched that you can't help but laugh and wonder at Mark P and Danny Baker who praised them . God ELP were stupid. Yes . Like Genesis they managed to produce an extra b*****d son to terrorise good taste in the shape of Rick Wakeman. Without doubt the stars of the progressive genre if only for the sheer long windedness of everything they have ever done. The icon for the era has to their magnum opus Tales from Topographic Oceans luckily they made every album identifiable with the godawful Roger Dean designed covers so there was no way you could buy one by accident and you could warn your mum. If by chance you do want to buy them its a credit to Yes that you can buy their whole back catalogue in secondhand record stores for about £5 as people realizing later on in life what sh*te they had bought turned them in their thousands. Topographic Oceans had all of prog rocks defining characteristics in spades.   http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/whendinosaursromaedtheea rth.htm - http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/whendinosaursromaedtheea rth.htm

How this a$$holes dare to talk about drugs in prog??

Or stupid costumes?

Or idiocy?

What serious musical site will criticize a band to show the world how good they supposedly are?

Punk is in essense anti prog, how can you mix both and believe in the possibility of Prog Punk?

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Hey guys, Punk was created as a reaction against Prog', all their official sites  bash Prog', they are against anything lñonger han three minutes or three chords. I never saw a prog', blues, jazz or pop site wasting their space in writting against the other genres. Yes in forums there's a lot of that, but never in an official site. When Dinosaurs Roamed The Earth... Know thine enemy. While Glam at least was proving some light relief from bands who had grown massive like the Stones, Who and Led Zeppelin there were an even more pretentious wave of bands who espoused the view that rock was serious and who were dominating the serious weekly music papers. Prog-Rock was  mostly listened to by grubby polytechnic students who wore flares and dufflecoats and never had any girlfriends and who would sit cross-legged at gigs on the floor bonged out of their brains. They would gather in bedsits drinking coffee out of chipped mugs and ponder the meaning of the universe while listening to Yes, Van Der Graaf Generator, Camel, Gentle Giant, Caravan, Greenslade and a thousand others. These people knew what they wanted ..lots of windswept guitar histrionics, gushing key boards, lyrics full of mystical allusions and song titles bearing no relation to the music and almost as long as the music itself ! As you read these you can see why punk had to happen. Weighed own by the weight of its own pretensions the scene was set for someone to point out that the emperor in fact had no clothes on. Read on and learn the horrible truth.......... What serious site would write this crap to promote themselves as the salvation of themusical world? If it wasn't for forums, probably you won't see the word Punk in Progressive sites, because we are sure enough of our taste to worry abouit the rest and waste valuable space in criticizing the rest of the world. They call us the enemy, most of us don't even care enough about them to consider Punk as an enemy. Genesis   Were a full blown prog-rock band, inspired by musical bluster and arcane philosophies, capable of churning out as much barking  nonsense as any of their early Seventies contemporaries, including the magnificently daft Yes. Under the direction of the consummately eccentric Peter Gabriel, Genesis indulged  in all manner of theatrical buffoonery and special effects. While the group turned on the pomp and pyrotechnics, Gabriel would nonce around the stage in a variety of costumes as illustrated. The peak of their absolute foolishness came with the Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, a virtually incomprehensible narrative about spiritual awakening spread over a double album. beloved of sixth formers with long hair and greycoats who had too much time on their hands. Emerson, Lake And Palmer.  Even the name sounds like a gang of lawyers or estate agents.  They were prog rocks most vulgar trawler men. Their first public appearance, at the Isle of Wight Festival was prefaced by a thunderous cannonade loud enough to wake the long time dead. This was an appropriate fanfare for a group that would be become internationally famous for its bombastic extravagance. ELP produced the ugliest music the world  has yet to endure "Pictures at an Exhibition", Brain Salad Surgery and even a triple live album of dross. Everything they did as dragged own by the weight of their own bloated pretensions, their vivid idiocy, the stupifying grossness that was their unique contribution to early seventies rock. Tipping over a Hammond and stabbing it with a knife to make distorted sounds does not excitement make. For the punter so far back he can see f**k all it might as well be a baboon jumping down on the keyboards.  Unable to come up with anything resembling a decent tune, they regularly vandalised the classics sending several dead Europeans spinning in their graves. The ridiculousness of their music is just so far fetched that you can't help but laugh and wonder at Mark P and Danny Baker who praised them . God ELP were stupid. Yes . Like Genesis they managed to produce an extra b*****d son to terrorise good taste in the shape of Rick Wakeman. Without doubt the stars of the progressive genre if only for the sheer long windedness of everything they have ever done. The icon for the era has to their magnum opus Tales from Topographic Oceans luckily they made every album identifiable with the godawful Roger Dean designed covers so there was no way you could buy one by accident and you could warn your mum. If by chance you do want to buy them its a credit to Yes that you can buy their whole back catalogue in secondhand record stores for about £5 as people realizing later on in life what sh*te they had bought turned them in their thousands. Topographic Oceans had all of prog rocks defining characteristics in spades.   http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/whendinosaursromaedtheea rth.htm - http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/whendinosaursromaedtheea rth.htm   How this a$$holes dare to talk about drugs in prog?? Or stupid costumes? Or idiocy? What serious musical site will criticize a band to show the world how good they supposedly are? Punk is in essense anti prog, how can you mix both and believe in the possibility of Prog Punk? Iván

Hey Richard Hell And Devo were great in there day maybe if u would actually listen to some of this music before judging it you would no i think the average prog fan could enjoy Richard Hells Blank Generation theres some great guitar playing going on there the same goes for Devo they were higly influenced by Captain Beefheart,Zappa,Krafwerk and others i wouldnt really call them punk though and for there fashion sence who cares there clothes were kind of funny and werent spousto be taken seriously well actually i think there was some sort of social commentary going on there with there concept of de evolution but im not getting into that Rick Wakeman wore stupid clothes too but u probbably love him (im not dissing wakeman)

now sid viscuous represents whats wrong with punk even most punks hate him except the trendy ones

i think progpunk can exist because i think punk is about being yourself and not caring what others think so if u mix the two u know alot of people wont like it but if u like it and dont care what others think then in my mind its punk.Punk isnt or shouldnt be about fashion or anarchy it should be about being yourself and not being something youre not

so i think punk shouldnt really be a genre it should be a way of approaching music same with prog

now ive confused myself oh well

thats for u ivan u antipunk Prog Hipster  

Hey Richard Hell And Devo were great in there day maybe if u would actually listen to some of this music before judging it you would no i think the average prog fan could enjoy Richard Hells Blank Generation theres some great guitar playing going on there the same goes for Devo they were higly influenced by Captain Beefheart,Zappa,Krafwerk and others i wouldnt really call them punk though and for there fashion sence who cares there clothes were kind of funny and werent spousto be taken seriously well actually i think there was some sort of social commentary going on there with there concept of de evolution but im not getting into that Rick Wakeman wore stupid clothes too but u probbably love him (im not dissing wakeman)

You don't get me Hemispheres, I can't care less how they dress or how stupid they are, I don't even care about Punk to be honest, I'm just saying that in their OFFICIAL web page they say how ridiculous costumes used Gabriel and Wakeman, How vulgar was ELP (????) and that all progheads are dirty hippies who use drugs all day.

But if I worship a stupid (literaly stupid sub normal) talentless drugadict as Sid, or others who  use stupid costumes as Devo, or a poser like Richard Hell,  I wouldn't open my mouth to criticize other genres.

I love Genesis early concerts, so I would be at least stupid to criticize artists fom other genres who have theatrical shows, that's why I never say a word about Punk, as I said don't even care about hem until they mess with us.

In our forum people (including me) joke and even talk crap about SOME artists of other genres (Or even of our own genre as Phil Collins), but you'll never see in the Prog Archives home an article against other genre, go to GEPR, they don't even mention Punk, go to Progressor, the same thing, check any site from the Progressive Rock Webring and you'll see that Punk is simply ignored, so why can't this guys leave us alone?

Why in hell do they need to print 4 pages insulting Progressive Rock, when we don't even mention them?

If you remember I was the first one who criticized our members who irrupted in a Punk forum to talk crap about them, but honestly this guys provoke us.

Iván

I think that yes prog takes itself to seriously sometimes but punk is complete bull**** the whole point of the music is to be quick, extremely simple and overly rebellious. making it a very limiting and idiotic genre.thankfully however its dead. I must admit to liking an obscure punk band called Naked Ray Gun though

Um we do talk about punk some this thread for example

walrus333 wrote: Um we do talk about punk some this thread for example

Yep Walrus, but I was referring top official web sites, this is a forum, we can't control (and I wish we will never) what people write (Not even about Prog), we find ELP bashers, Genesis haters, etc.

So it's normal to talk about Punk, Pop or Rap in a forum, but no Progressive OFFICIAL WEB SITE (Like Prog Archives home page) takes position criticizing any genre.

I don't ask Punk web sites to praise prog (wouldn't care if they did), I onluy ask them to ignore as as our OFFICIAL WEB SITES do.

Cheers

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: walrus333 wrote: Um we do talk about punk some this thread for example Yep Walrus, but I was referring top official web sites, this is a forum, we can't control (and I wish we will never) what people write (Not even about Prog), we find ELP bashers, Genesis haters, etc. So it's normal to talk about Punk, Pop or Rap in a forum, but no Progressive OFFICIAL WEB SITE (Like Prog Archives home page) takes position criticizing any genre. I don't ask Punk web sites to praise prog (wouldn't care if they did), I onluy ask them to ignore as as our OFFICIAL WEB SITES do. Cheers Iván

as much as that article was just plain stupid there had to be something about prog and we actually do have something about punk on the official website the history of prog mentions it but not in a negative way really

Hemispheres wrote:

as much as that article was just plain stupid there had to be something about prog and we actually do have something about punk on the official website the history of prog mentions it but not in a negative way really

100% Agree with you, any serious web site that talks about Prog' history has to talk about punk, mentioning that it started as a reaction against the so elaborated and complex Prog, and probably decribe which are the main characteristics of early Punk in comparison with Prog, but without falling in cheap insults.

It's part of ourhistory and we can't hide it.

But it woould be wrong to write 4 pages about the worst Punk bands describing all their addictions and their idiocy (Because they have their own share of it), How Sid was member of a band without being able to play a single note and how those posers called The Sex Pistols kept him because it was good for their image. .

Just a centered unpassionate description. But this guys make 4 pages (Out of 9) justto insult Prog', Genesis, Yes, ELP, JethroTull, The Who (For the Rock Opera and Conceptual albums) and of course Rick Wakeman and King Crimson, that's plain stupid, and my post was to prove that fact only.

Cheers

Iván

BTW: I used to like some Devo when a kid because there was no way I coud watch Prog' during those years in Perú execpt in one TV program called Disco Club (Disco as a translation of Record to Spanish, not about the dance genre) this program used to play a lot of Classic Rock, a little of  Prog (Maybe one song each 4 programs, I even saw the whole Yessongs for the first time in a 1 hour special, because the normal program lasted 30 minutes), some STYX, Klaatu, etc, but mostly  New Wave and Punk,

So I got used to Devo, Richard Hell, The Police, Blondie (More crappy Pop than Punk to be honest, (Even though this site claims she's a punkette) until I got tired of them (And new programs arrrived with some Prog on them).

Ivan:

I have that article as one of my Favorite Places just to have something to make me angrey whenever I get too happy.

Anyway, I'm not usually this close-minded, but when it comes to music, I'm an incredible snob. I think punk, "emo" and "hardcore" all are degerate forms of "music" and do not deserve the time and energy it would take me to light one of their useless albums on fire.

'Nuff said.

Rashikal wrote: how the heck was animals punk!?

Musically: Hell no.

Lyrically: Though sophisticated, it is full of spite and hatred.

Dick Heath wrote: Personally, have actively followed prog from the very start and heard the music get very jaded/pretentious towards the end of the first 8 to 10 years and wish to f**k that the likes of Jon Anderson would start to write about some semblance of reality (enough for me to be really pissed off with Yes albums from Topographic rubbish), punk was most welcome. The writing not! Hurray from the Strangers, Souxsie & The Banshees, the Sex Pistols, the Police, XTC, Squeeze etc.

Very good band.

Dick Heath wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Hey guys, Punk was created as a reaction against Prog', all their official sites  bash Prog', they are against anything lñonger han three minutes or three chords. Iván Iván Punk was not created solely as reaction to prog, it was a reaction to the so-called rock dinosaurs. Note: the list was originally Led Zeppelin, Cliff Richard, Rod Stewart, Yes, ELP - of whom the punk generation (teens in the mid 70 to late 70's), saw  as archetypal  musicians who dominated the record industry (did excessive things in a time political gloom and doom, and seemingly made it difficult to get their simple variant of rock'n'roll heard. Musicians who wanted to play like British rock'n'roll musicians from ~1955: nice and simple songs (with a strong beat and few chord changes about love), songs about not being able to find work, being brought up in slums, their conditions - not dimwitted fairy stories, or about spiritualism that only wealth and leisure time seemed to permit. I agree, but there's a special hatred against Prog'.  As the Clash said, what relevance were lyrics of Yes, when you were impoverished and you want to speak out about your conditions? Prog was predominately middle class, psychedelia was middle class, (when reggae was working class). Check your history: Jon Savage's England's Dreaming is a good start point for the music and sociology of punk. Yep, all start talking anout the poor conditions in which they were raised, but when they earn their first monet they change the perception of reality and of course their way of live, it's funny to look at a moron with a Nazi T-shirt talking about abuse of society. However, ignore these punk writers who are groomed to write in an agressive style and nowadays, not to check facts(not punk musicians) - the New Musical Express is the home of such writing. The shame is too many people have allowed the opinions a handful of such writers dominate for so long. Seem to be the most today.  And also remember prog musicians have never been spontaneously created, (unless they weremembers of a rare breed, born with silver plectrums in their mouths), they too had to graft  and work out simple tunes with a few chords. Have you heard what Jimmy Page or John Mclaughlin sounded like in the mid 60's? That's the natural path of evolution, you start with the simpler and end with the complex and that's a merit, but honestlñy a very high percentage of the Prog' musicians startedplaying Classical music and only after that embraced Prog Rock. Personally, have actively followed prog from the very start and heard the music get very jaded/pretentious towards the end of the first 8 to 10 years and wish to f**k that the likes of Jon Anderson would start to write about some semblance of reality (enough for me to be really pissed off with Yes albums from Topographic rubbish), punk was most welcome. The writing not! Hurray from the Strangers, Souxsie & The Banshees, the Sex Pistols, the Police, XTC, Squeeze etc. Tales is far from being my favorite abum but I rather listen any Yes album (Except after Drama) than 99% of Punk music, including The Police (Except a couple of later albums which oif course are lees close to Punk).

Iván

Wow....that's a little broad. Punk...that covers alot. I don't like most punk. Especailly pop-punk (IMO one of the worst genres out there) like Good Charlotte, Simple Plan, Blink 182, My Chemical Romance....... Hardcore Punk, Skater Punk, and some regular is cool with me.

I don't like "old school punk" vocals that make me want to beat my head in, and running around basically saying I am  anti-everything.

That's what else gets me, the idea of punk (as with almost all genres) is used up. Punk fashion is becoming acceptable and mainstream  isn't that  against the idea of punk? Eh wehatever, bascailly  punk.......not that good.

Dick Heath wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Iván songs about not being able to find work, being brought up in slums, their conditions - not dimwitted fairy stories, or about spiritualism that only wealth and leisure time seemed to permit. As the Clash said, what relevance were lyrics of Yes, when you were impoverished and you want to speak out about your conditions? Prog was predominately middle class, psychedelia was middle class, (when reggae was working class). Check your history: Jon Savage's England's Dreaming is a good start point for the music and sociology of punk.

its the main reason i much prefer jethro tull and pink floyd over other prog bands like yes. ian anderson and rodger waters are two of the greatest songwriters in rock music.ever. songs that are deep but have a definite message- my god, thick as a brick, time, dogs, sheep etc.

mrdurganator wrote: Dick Heath wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Iván songs about not being able to find work, being brought up in slums, their conditions - not dimwitted fairy stories, or about spiritualism that only wealth and leisure time seemed to permit. As the Clash said, what relevance were lyrics of Yes, when you were impoverished and you want to speak out about your conditions? Prog was predominately middle class, psychedelia was middle class, (when reggae was working class). Check your history: Jon Savage's England's Dreaming is a good start point for the music and sociology of punk.   its the main reason i much prefer jethro tull and pink floyd over other prog bands like yes. ian anderson and rodger waters are two of the greatest songwriters in rock music.ever. songs that are deep but have a definite message- my god, thick as a brick, time, dogs, sheep etc.

In Prog you got to choose:

• If you want to listen lyrics about anything, you got Genesis: Politics, revolutions, mythology, tradition, history, botanics, sci fi, satire, critics to society, dark comedy, religion, etc
• If you want to listen poetry you got Yes (BTW: Poetry is a great art genre, those who don't like poetry don't have sensibility) and believe me sensibility is a great component of music.
• If you want to listen Folk Country inspired lyrics about Horeses without job or songs from the woods (and many things more) you got Jethro Tull.
• If you want to listen deep critics against the system you got Pink Floyd.
• If you wantto listen pessimistic lyrics about how futile is life you got Kansas (Hopelesly Human, Closet Chronicles, Point of Know Return, Dust in the Wind, etc.
• If you want to listen pompous historic legends you got Rick Wakeman and Triumvirat (Even when the second has one really pessimistic album as Illusions on a Double Dimple).
• If you don't want to listen lyrics you got Anglagard, Focus, etc.

And so on, in Prog' you got a lot to choose, that's called a versatile genre.

When you listen Punk you got hatred, hatred and more hatred sung by posers who are being paid ten times in one year more than what most of us will get in a life time. 

Iván

 OK. I see that no one here ever heard bands like LAGWAGON or STRUNG OUT (especialy LAGWAGON). Try listening some of their songs, then come back here and dare to say that punk can't be progressive.

 Joey Cape (LAGWAGON's lead singer) is THE one of the greatest rock musicians alive. He can play guitar, drums and keyboard, and on top of all that read some of his lyrics if you want poetry. He wrote over 150 songs in bands like LAGWAGON and BAD ASTRONAUT (a mixture of jazz, punk, emo...), not to mention that LAGWAGON technicaly could seriously f**k up the most of the progressive rock bands today (excluding DREAM THEATER who are f**kin' masters).

Derrick Plourde (RIP), former LAGWAGONs drummer... What can I say, just listen the following songs: RIFLE, MOVE THE CAR, TRAGIC VISION, FOILED AGAIN, etc. BTW, he was one of the fastest single pedal drummers ever (song PARENT'S GUIDE TO LIVING).

Other members of LAGWAGON, Jesse Buglione (bass), Chris Rest and Chriss Flippin (guitars) are so technical, fast, inovative, that I almost sh*t my pants when I heard them for the first time.

 So, before anyone else here say that punk can't be progressive or that punk is dull, stupid, sh*tty or something like that, please listen to LAGWAGON or STRUNG OUT (prefer LAGWAGON).

Thank you! Regards!

Dick Heath wrote: ANDREW wrote: Absolutely not! Sorry but i don't agree with you. Sorry Andrew, such comments piss me off and provoke the reaction:  you haven't heard enough prog or understand what it is about!  Prog fans shouldn't be so close minded - prog musicians aren't: Live in Concert [Live]   http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=music&field-artist=Stranglers%2C%20the%20%26%20Friends/203-4524732-2158327 - The Stranglers & Friends  (Artist) 1. Introduction - Jet Black, The Stranglers 2. (Get A) Grip (On Yourself) - Hazel O'Connor, Robert Smith, The Stranglers 3. Hanging Around - Hazel O'Connor, Robert Smith, The Stranglers 4. Tank - Robert Fripp, Peter Hammill, The Stranglers 5. Threatened - Robert Fripp, The Stranglers 6. Toiler on the Sea - Phil Daniels, Robert Fripp, The Stranglers 7. Raven - Basil Gabbidon, Peter Hammill, The Stranglers 8. Dead Loss Angeles - Phil Daniels, Wilko Johnson, The Stranglers 9. Nice 'N' Sleazy - Basil Gabbidon, The Stranglers, Nicky Tesco, Nik Turner 10. Bring on the Nubiles - Richard Jobson, Wilko Johnson, The Stranglers 11. Peaches - Ian Dury, Wilko Johnson, Davey Payne, The Stranglers, Toyah Wilcox 12. Bear Cage - Ian Dury, Mathieu Hartley, Wilko Johnson, Davey Payne, The Stranglers, 13. Duchess - The Stranglers, Toyah Wilcox 14. No More Heroes - Richard Jobson, The Stranglers 15. Five Minutes - Richard Jobson, The Stranglers, Larry Wallis 16. Something Better Change - Steve Hillage, The Stranglers, Toyah Wilcox 17. Down in the Sewer - Jake Burns, Jake Burns & The Big Wheel, Phil Daniels, Ian Dury, Robert Fripp, Basil Gabbidon, Peter Hammill, The Stranglers

I have that record. It's great! Nik Turner (Hawkwind) is on some songs also. Also check out 'The Men in Black' by THe Stranglers. Perfect blending of prog and punk.

darren wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: When you listen Punk you got hatred, hatred and more hatred sung by posers who are being paid ten times in one year more than what most of us will get in a life time.  Iván Got to disagree. Though there is some hatred, some punk has a lot of political and social commentary. Some has a lot of humour. Some have a fantasy element, though nowhere near as elegant and as poetic as prog. Some punk is about people's reality, as some prefer to rage against what's wrong instead of songs about Siberian Khatrus and things. Unfortunately, this has aquired some rich kids looking for angst in their life to adopt punk in an attempt to be cool but then, I don't this is unique to punk. I do agree that prog has more variety of subjects.

Examples of social comentary in Punk are The clash, who urge people 'no to heed the call up' and 'I don't want to kill', which is not hate, but quite the opposite. They also sang against racism and poverty.

The stranglers sang about men in black from other planets which is very 'prog'.

I'm not saying that all punk bands are like this, but there are bands that offer more than hate lyrics.

JeezY wrote: Please correct me if im wrong, but did you say punk was created..against prog?

Not only against Prog but mainly, also against the sofisticate complexity that Rock had acquired since the early years, but their main target has always been Progressive Rock.

It's obvious that Punk was born as an ANTI movement, this is called hatred here and in China:

The music scene of the mid-70s was and artistic wasteland. The rock hierarchy of the Stones, Who, Clapton, Floyd and Genesis had become increasingly irrelevant and remote from peoples everyday lives, creating the perfect climate for a back-to-basics youth explosion. If the Sex Pistols and their snarling frontman Johnny Rotten were the wired up catalysts for change, others soon followed in their footsteps as a generation of three chord wonders gave a timely reaction to the 'hippie' meanderings of the old musical order. http://pages.eidosnet.co.uk/johnnymoped/punk/webpunk/webpunkhistorypage_britishpunkrock_page1.html - http://pages.eidosnet.co.uk/johnnymoped/punk/webpunk/webpunk historypage_britishpunkrock_page1.html

Clear enough.

Punk rock was also a reaction against tendencies that had overtaken popular music in the 1970s including what the punks saw as superficial "disco" music and bombastic forms of heavy metal, progressive rock and "arena rock." Punk also rejected the remnants of the hippie counterculture of the 1960s. Bands such as Jefferson Airplane, which had survived the 1960s, were regarded by most punks as having become fatuous and an embarrassment to their former claims of radicality. Eric Clapton's appearance in television beer ads in the mid-1970s was often cited as an example of how the icons of 1960s rock had literally sold themselves to the system they once opposed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock

A neutral position also is aware of this tendency.

Punk culture as it is seen today started in the mid 1970s as a movement or rebellion against some styles of music which existed at the time such as Prog Rock and Heavy Metal whose stars were seen as out of touch with their fans. Followers of punk culture developed their own, dystopian styles of music, which were originally like underground,  minimalist rock and roll. The Sex Pistols and The Ramones are well known examples of Punk rock bands of this era http://7search.com/scripts/security/visit.asp?id=10014441&qs=urlid%3D13952900%26affiliateid%3D41327%26keyword%3Dpunk%2Brock%26sk%3Dpunk%2Brock%2Bhistory%26s%3Dpls%26u%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww%2Eabcsearch%2Ecom%26rank%3D2%26rid%3Ditcg%2D464%26sd%3D12%252f28%252f05%2B21%253a38%253a29%2E213 - http://7search.com/scripts/security/visit.asp?id=10014441&am p;am p;am p;am p;qs=urlid%3D13952900%26affiliateid%3D41327%26keyword%3Dpunk %2Brock%26sk%3Dpunk%2Brock%2Bhistory%26s%3Dpls%26u%3Dhttp%25 3a%252f%252fwww%2Eabcsearch%2Ecom%26rank%3D2%26rid%3Ditcg%2D 464%26sd%3D12%252f28%252f05%2B21%253a38%253a29%2E213

More of the same.

Punk Rock. Punk Rock was directly opposite to anything thing that progressive rock stood for. While Progressive bands preferred long, winding "compositions," Punk Rock were extremely short, simple songs. A classic example of this is the debut album from New York Punk legends, The Ramones, whose 1976 debut album clocked in with 14 songs at 28 minutes (Jethro Tull's Thick as A Brick, which many consider a progressive rock masterwork, takes approximately 50 minutes). Prog Rock specialized in complex, melodic sequences. Most Punk Rock groups, on the other hand only knew four chords, and the overall emphasis of the song was on rhythm. The Punks also made their displeasure with the progressive movement, which they regarded as old and self indulgent, widely known,. The single most famous example of the "punk additude" on Progressive was done by Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols who regularly wore a T-Shirt on stage saying "I Hate Pink Floyd." The message began to resonate. http://www3.niu.edu/newsplace/nnprogressive.html - http://www3.niu.edu/newsplace/nnprogressive.html

It's clear, Prog Rock is the main target of Punk.

BTW: Rashikal,  Punk77 is not written by a British teenager,  in this moment is almost  the official site of Punk, so what they wrote against Prog (which I quoted) can be seen as their official position.

And as you have seen before, not the Clash, but Johnny Rotten from The Sex Pistols made his appearences wearing an "I hate Pink Floyd" T-Shirt, something that is widely known.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: And as you have seen before, not the Clash, but Johnny Rotten from The Sex Pistols made his appearences wearing an "I hate Pink Floyd" T-Shirt, something that is widely known. Iván

Johnny Rotten has admitted to not hating prog infact he was influenced by the likes of Can,Van Der Graff Generator and others he also admitted to liking Pink Floyd and being good friends with Dave Gilmour and saying that that shirt was a joke i also heard that he likes yes

his group after the sex pistols public image ltd is great one of my fav bands of all time very can influenced and u can hear Peter Hamill influence in lyndons voice

Hemispheres wrote: [ Johnny Rotten has admitted to not hating prog infact he was influenced by the likes of Can,Van Der Graff Generator and others he also admitted to liking Pink Floyd and being good friends with Dave Gilmour and saying that that shirt was a joke i also heard that he likes yes Another prove he's a sad poser, he shouted he hated Pink Floyd (Despite he loved that band) just to keep an image. And he recruited the talentless Sid Vicious who couldn't even play a note just because he was good for the image. What a mediocre poser.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Hemispheres wrote: [ Johnny Rotten has admitted to not hating prog infact he was influenced by the likes of Can,Van Der Graff Generator and others he also admitted to liking Pink Floyd and being good friends with Dave Gilmour and saying that that shirt was a joke i also heard that he likes yes Another prove he's a sad poser, he shouted he hated Pink Floyd (Despite he loved that band) just to keep an image. And he recruited the talentless Sid Vicious who couldn't even play a note just because he was good for the image. What a mediocre poser. Iván

Oh well it doesnt really matter he made some great music with Public Image ltd witch was pretty much a reaction to what happened with the sex pistols and i dont think john hired vicious for his image because they were good friends before the pistols i think mclaren turned viscuos into the image of the band so i think mclaren is to blame mostly

JeezY wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Hey guys, Punk was created as a reaction against Prog', all their official sites  bash Prog', they are against anything lñonger han three minutes or three chords. I never saw a prog', blues, jazz or pop site wasting their space in writting against the other genres. Yes in forums there's a lot of that, but never in an official site. When Dinosaurs Roamed The Earth... Know thine enemy. While Glam at least was proving some light relief from bands who had grown massive like the Stones, Who and Led Zeppelin there were an even more pretentious wave of bands who espoused the view that rock was serious and who were dominating the serious weekly music papers. Prog-Rock was  mostly listened to by grubby polytechnic students who wore flares and dufflecoats and never had any girlfriends and who would sit cross-legged at gigs on the floor bonged out of their brains. They would gather in bedsits drinking coffee out of chipped mugs and ponder the meaning of the universe while listening to Yes, Van Der Graaf Generator, Camel, Gentle Giant, Caravan, Greenslade and a thousand others. These people knew what they wanted ..lots of windswept guitar histrionics, gushing key boards, lyrics full of mystical allusions and song titles bearing no relation to the music and almost as long as the music itself ! As you read these you can see why punk had to happen. Weighed own by the weight of its own pretensions the scene was set for someone to point out that the emperor in fact had no clothes on. Read on and learn the horrible truth.......... What serious site would write this crap to promote themselves as the salvation of themusical world? If it wasn't for forums, probably you won't see the word Punk in Progressive sites, because we are sure enough of our taste to worry abouit the rest and waste valuable space in criticizing the rest of the world. They call us the enemy, most of us don't even care enough about them to consider Punk as an enemy. Genesis   Were a full blown prog-rock band, inspired by musical bluster and arcane philosophies, capable of churning out as much barking  nonsense as any of their early Seventies contemporaries, including the magnificently daft Yes. Under the direction of the consummately eccentric Peter Gabriel, Genesis indulged  in all manner of theatrical buffoonery and special effects. While the group turned on the pomp and pyrotechnics, Gabriel would nonce around the stage in a variety of costumes as illustrated. The peak of their absolute foolishness came with the Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, a virtually incomprehensible narrative about spiritual awakening spread over a double album. beloved of sixth formers with long hair and greycoats who had too much time on their hands. Emerson, Lake And Palmer.  Even the name sounds like a gang of lawyers or estate agents.  They were prog rocks most vulgar trawler men. Their first public appearance, at the Isle of Wight Festival was prefaced by a thunderous cannonade loud enough to wake the long time dead. This was an appropriate fanfare for a group that would be become internationally famous for its bombastic extravagance. ELP produced the ugliest music the world  has yet to endure "Pictures at an Exhibition", Brain Salad Surgery and even a triple live album of dross. Everything they did as dragged own by the weight of their own bloated pretensions, their vivid idiocy, the stupifying grossness that was their unique contribution to early seventies rock. Tipping over a Hammond and stabbing it with a knife to make distorted sounds does not excitement make. For the punter so far back he can see f**k all it might as well be a baboon jumping down on the keyboards.  Unable to come up with anything resembling a decent tune, they regularly vandalised the classics sending several dead Europeans spinning in their graves. The ridiculousness of their music is just so far fetched that you can't help but laugh and wonder at Mark P and Danny Baker who praised them . God ELP were stupid. Yes . Like Genesis they managed to produce an extra b*****d son to terrorise good taste in the shape of Rick Wakeman. Without doubt the stars of the progressive genre if only for the sheer long windedness of everything they have ever done. The icon for the era has to their magnum opus Tales from Topographic Oceans luckily they made every album identifiable with the godawful Roger Dean designed covers so there was no way you could buy one by accident and you could warn your mum. If by chance you do want to buy them its a credit to Yes that you can buy their whole back catalogue in secondhand record stores for about £5 as people realizing later on in life what sh*te they had bought turned them in their thousands. Topographic Oceans had all of prog rocks defining characteristics in spades.   http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/whendinosaursromaedtheea%20rth.htm - http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/whendinosaursromaedtheea rth.htm   How this a$$holes dare to talk about drugs in prog?? Or stupid costumes? Or idiocy? What serious musical site will criticize a band to show the world how good they supposedly are? Punk is in essense anti prog, how can you mix both and believe in the possibility of Prog Punk? Iván Please correct me if im wrong, but did you say punk was created..against prog?

I think that punk is born against prog...but also that it helped the modern music scene to be so disgusting!!!! 

el_Sethro wrote: It seems to me that though The Mars Volta's songs may contain certain punky bits and certain proggy bits, there aren't really any parts that are both at the same time.

i think they are im not going to go listen to some mars volta to give u an example but i know there is

Glad to see the arguement still rages on . I visited here some time ago after I think we all invaded each others sites .....I use the Punk77 site forum on a regular basis , the majority of people there are really quite sensible and have a wide and varied taste  , unlike maybe what we did way back in 77 or 78 or whatever you choose ....we punks have grown up a bit ( well , most of us have ) .

I think ALL music should be for entertainment , there is good and bad prog , good and bad punk . A lot of punk isn't about hate - for that youi may have to look at the era 79-84 when the majority of bands were thrash/hardcore punk ( Discharge , GBH types ) ....but , punk wasn't that anti prog either by then ....that was just a reaction of the 77 types , maybe you all reacted as well to what went before prog , it was someone elses thing ....its only natural really and I think in the majority of cases we don't really mean it , its just saying what you are expected to say.

I do wonder what prog is ....is there a limit to how far a band can progress , if they revert to their original style after years of change , is this still progression ? Punk bands  generally did progress , some started out very raw and either disappeared ( Adverts) or they moved on drastically ( Clash/Stranglers/Damned ) , their styles evolved and many did become very good musicians .

At the end of the day though its all about what you enjoy ... I do notice one difference between our sites , whereas your prog site mainly talks about the bands , we tend to discuss more on the anything goes topics - away from the music ( football/TV /Film etc )  ....does it mean we have more varied lives ? Don't know . Might just mean we have talked our music to death.

We do get some really young idiots on our site though , the conversation ( or lack of by them ) has to be seen to be believed.

Happy new year everyone .

Hemispheres wrote: el_Sethro wrote: It seems to me that though The Mars Volta's songs may contain certain punky bits and certain proggy bits, there aren't really any parts that are both at the same time. i think they are im not going to go listen to some mars volta to give u an example but i know there is

The only thing punk about TMV is the energy and sometimes the vocals (which is not the same as lyrics.)

If there were a PUNK ARCHIVES it probably would look something like this:

PUNK

The Ramones

The Clash

PROTO PUNK

MC5

The Stooges

Patti Smith

AVANT PUNK

Sonic Youth

Television

PUNK RELATED

Blondie

Talking Heads

need I say more?

oh yeah

MARKETING PLOY

Sex Pistols

    I consider it as a low level music style =(

I'd rather listen to some hip hop than most punk bands.No question that Public Enemy or Cypress Hill are better than the Sex Pistols or Green Day.

OK , The Stranglers  are not awful and maybe there are bands who are tolerable.

Punk is the best genre for guys who have no musical(and any other)talent  and they want to become a famous rock star. And who are not good looking either