have listened to any IQ - I was suprised to see that IQ didn't make the top 10 prog band lists you all put forward a short time ago!

IQ are on a par with Genesis/Yes/ELP (and to a lesser extent Floyd) at the melodic/progressive end of the spectrum.

The latest album is so good (Dark Matter) that I would have to place it into my top twenty prog albums of all time!

PS. Has anbody noticed that IQ deliberately plagiarise Genesis/Yes/Hacket in small slices of their tracks?

IQ is derivative of the classical Prog era (1970 - 1977) but the derivative shines like a beacon in the current progressive firmament....

IQ was defintley on my list!.. 

Dark Matter is never off my car cd player at the moment and i can't wait to see them live at next months Progsfest.

IQ is my favorite neo prog band. However, it is hard to compare it to earlier bands like Renaissance, Yes or Genesis, because they do not use the same technology. IQ can be compared to bands like Marillion, Pendragon, Landmarq, Jadis. IQ is great because of their consistency to produce excellent albums. I even find Nomzamo and Are you sitting comfortably very good, although less progressive and more pop oriented. IMO IQ is going to become a legendary prog band, like Genesis. After more than 20 years of existence,  IQ is stronger than ever; who wants their decline?

Finally, I do not think IQ copied Genesis. Neither Marillion, nor Citizen Cain: they all have their style. Starcastle did not copy Yes. Echolyn did not copy Gentle Giant. The only band that copied Genesis is Musical Box: they reproduce Genesis stuff.

richardh wrote: Martin Orford is way underrated as a keyboard player

Totally agree and have gone out of my way to say what he adds to Dark Matter, in my review here and Amazon.UK.  I know too Orford ticked my "review found useful" box - since we are discussing the possibility of him coming and guesting on my radio show, after we start up transmission again, possibly in November.  

I enjoy the music of IQ, but I would never list them among my favourites. To me they are a bit "2nd division", good but not up there with the best.

Even in neo-prog terms, I would rate bands like Pendragon, Arena and Marillion way above them.

Easy Livin wrote: I enjoy the music of IQ, but I would never list them among my favourites. To me they are a bit "2nd division", good but not up there with the best. Even in neo-prog terms, I would rate bands like Pendragon, Arena and Marillion way above them.

Obviously that's your opinion but my first reaction when I heard 'Tales..' was that this was a band that could easily have survived in the seventies alongside the ELP's and Yes's quite comfortably.Marillion on the other hand seemed limited and were very much a 'child of the times' ie eighties 'neo-prog'. IQ are a 'ballsy' prog band,very heavy ,very dark and very impressive.Those other bands can but try and hang on to their coat tails IMHO.

Everything I've heard by IQ concurs with what Easy Livin is saying, and comparing like with like, there is no way that any of IQ's 1980s albums hold a candle to the equivalent Marillion albums - IQ were more derivative, less melodic, less inventive contrapuntally and lyrically were near the bottom of the list.

I haven't heard their more recent stuff - which of the most recent albums would people say is best?

BTW, richardh, as you probably anticipated, I think your statement that Marillion were "limited" and a "child of the times" is wrong both in

1) Itself - because Marillion's first 3 albums seem timeless to me, incredibly inventive, and developed as a series of albums in a way that I have never heard another band accomplish. Even "Clutching..." is a continuity from the first 3.

2) Context, because "Script..." sounds far superior to "Tales...", and both "Fugazi" and "Misplaced Childhood" seem leagues above "The Wake" in that neither are so blatantly derivative or poorly constructed. Marillion's lyrics (well, perhaps it's unfair to compare the two bands lyrically!)...

So from these two perspectives, I don't really "get" where your statement is coming from - exuberance, perhaps?

I'm not a fan- I really respect the band and their songs, but unfortunately the vocals totally ruin it for me. I just can't take him seriously, to me it almost sounds like parody. When he's not singing I think they're quite good.

In that way and others IQ reminds me of a neo-prog VDGG, although the band's general sound seems more like a modernized Genesis (although in a very different way from Marillion's 80s albums). I tend to think of IQ like a darker Pallas with more range and less metal touches; like the man said, definitely 2nd generation- they are so seamless and perfectly produced, whereas the classic prog albums had a raw and ragged quality made you realize the musicians (and producers) were taking musical risks and exploring uncharted territory- and could very well stumble occasionally.

I'm not saying IQ isn't inventive, or that they're derivative- lots of people love them and I've heard great instrumental moments on their work. But objectively I don't think they quite make the topmost tier.

I agree with you on the vocals there, James - but left that out as a taste thing

But I'll qualify "derivative" simply by saying that while I still cannot seem to hear direct Genesis influences in early Marillion as some can, they stand out like a sore thumb in IQ's work from the same period - the way the mellotron is used and the Steve Hackett sound and style in the guitar are but two examples of direct influence, which gives me a feeling of derivation rather than innovation.

I'll go on to qualify "Not as inventive" by indicating the rather simple chord patterns that "The Wake", at least, founds most of the songs on. Compared to any Marillion song from "Script...", there is very little contrapuntal inventiveness in the parts, little melodic invention, a lack of harmonic drive and what I feel to be nervous jumps when it comes to key and time changes as opposed to the seamlessness of Marillion.

This is not to say that the music isn't good, BTW, I'm just examining the technical deficiencies as I see them, in a way that underlines my tastes. "Good" is a subjective term after all, and if you like it and think it's good, then you're not wrong.

Marillion was an outstanding band.

IQ IS an outstanding band.

Those 2 bands are quite different: actually, AC-DC and Def Leppard sound much more alike than them!  I think that early Marillion - Fish era was a bit superior to IQ. But IQ's last 4 albums are more professionally recorded and produced than their early ones. IQ wins hands down the medal for the all-time most consistant prog band.  IQ replaces the bad Marillion period. IQ is the easiest prog band to like: after the first listening, then you like it!

I bought almost all of the IQ's albums ."Tales"The first is my favorite.I enjoy the band alot .I had to get used to the voice but I think it got better as experience kicked in. I would never put them in the league with classics like Genesis or Pink Floyd and its not a fair comparison,but they are very good in their own genre.

I'll still stick with my opinion that IQ were (and for that matter still are) superior  to Marillion.Certified using phrases like 'contrapuntal inventiveness' doesn't impress me.OK you prefer Marillion ...fair enough.But how you don't find very early IQ in the form of, say, 'The Last Human Gateway' ''inventive'' baffles me.I understand the points about 'The Wake' sounding like Genesis (it does!) but it still restored my faith in prog rock thanks to the 'going for it' attitude.Admittedly productionwise it's rough and ready but I love the rawness of it.Maybe IQ have gone on to better things with 'Ever','The Seventh House' and 'Dark Matter' but that's just part of a band growing up I suppose.As for Marillion I just find the first 3 albums lacking in dynamics compared to IQ's first 2.Marillion seemed a lot more laboured in their attempts to be more precise.IQ took more risks and played 'on the edge' hence the mistakes.But it's like apples and oranges.My fave band ELP often made mistakes and could easily be considered inferior to other bands of the time like say Pink Floyd who took 'preciseness' to the nth degree.But then I appreciate bands that take risks.Prog is not for the 'lilly livered' IMO.

"Marillion was an outstanding band.

IQ IS an outstanding band.

Those 2 bands are quite different: actually, AC-DC and Def Leppard sound much more alike than them!  I think that early Marillion - Fish era was a bit superior to IQ. But IQ's last 4 albums are more professionally recorded and produced than their early ones. IQ wins hands down the medal for the all-time most consistant prog band.  IQ replaces the bad Marillion period."

Agree 10,000 %!!  IQ had their pop period too, but even in those albums 'Nomzamo' and 'Are You Sitting Comfortably?' they were capable of writing some wondeul epics such as Human Nature, Common Ground, Nostalgia/Falling Apart, and Wurensh.

From what I hear, their current polished sound also contains some rawness, though nowadays through teh filter of modern industrial synth effects and ambiences. Their earlier albums were really ballsy, aggressive, quite punkish at times with a prog basis, of course. They really rocked harder tha Marillion, but they had less moneym so they released their first works after Marillion did. That's why some people tend to think that IQ were Marillion clones, but they were actually contemporary, and both bands were powerfully influenced by Twelfth Night. Marillion were softer and more pronuncedly melodic, while IQ enjoyed more making a balance between melodic richness and rough playing.

IQ is my all time modern symphonic prog band of all times, and I'm still angry that I haven't achieved my 'Dark Matter' copy yet!!

greenback wrote: My biggest wish would be that all the members of this community worship IQ!

That won't happen but at least there are a few of us to keep the flame burning while the rest can shout things like 'Neo-Prog' and 'Pete Nicholls is a bad clone of Peter Gabriel' etc

IQ - without a shadow of a doubt influenced by 70's prog rock. It's also plain that any devotee of Genesis, Yes and ELP et all - should appreciate the efforts of IQ to keep on producing music of the genre we all love. Genesis/Yes and ELP are the role models, but I am equally certain that IQ's music can stand up with comparison with any mega epic of the 70's and those cumudgeons who use age (I saw Genesis in 1969...Yawn) to diminish a prog devotee's opinion can FOOK right off!

I love Genesis/Yes/ELP to name a few but IQ is in there with em and I would question any prog rock fan who didn't like at least one of their albums!

richardh wrote: I'll still stick with my opinion that IQ were (and for that matter still are) superior  to Marillion.Certified using phrases like 'contrapuntal inventiveness' doesn't impress me. It's not intended to be impressive, just an observation based on facts rather than opinion - to back up my assertion that at the time Marillion were the superior band, in simple disagreement with what you seemed to assert as fact! I read for a degree in music, which doesn't mean I know best, it just means that I talk in the language used to describe music at degree level without thinking about it sometimes. It's just a means of expression - nothing more. If you don't understand what it means, I can explain, although Google will probably do the job quite well! When people post opinion dressed as fact, I think it's unfair - hence my redressing of the balance. OK you prefer Marillion ...fair enough. But how you don't find very early IQ in the form of, say, 'The Last Human Gateway' ''inventive'' baffles me.I understand the points about 'The Wake' sounding like Genesis (it does!) but it still restored my faith in prog rock thanks to the 'going for it' attitude.Admittedly productionwise it's rough and ready but I love the rawness of it.Maybe IQ have gone on to better things with 'Ever','The Seventh House' and 'Dark Matter' but that's just part of a band growing up I suppose.As for Marillion I just find the first 3 albums lacking in dynamics compared to IQ's first 2. OK, you're presenting it as opinion now - I still disagree, I think Marillion had a far greater dynamic range, especially in the first 3 albums. Different strokes! Marillion seemed a lot more laboured in their attempts to be more precise. I don't understand that opinion, as I find them utterly seamless and precise in the first 3 albums - there seems to be no effort and it seems far from being laboured! The only IQ album I have heard ("The Wake") is the opposite... more different strokes, perhaps! IQ took more risks (careful - opinion presented as fact again!) and played 'on the edge' hence the mistakes.But it's like apples and oranges. My fave band ELP often made mistakes and could easily be considered inferior to other bands of the time like say Pink Floyd who took 'preciseness' to the nth degree.But then I appreciate bands that take risks.Prog is not for the 'lilly livered' IMO.

OK, I only took your initial post to task because it seemed to present the statement "IQ are superior to Marillion" as some kind of irrefutable fact. Naturally I refute it...

As this a pro IQ thread I took 'liberties'.But anything I say about music is an opinion and is never meant to be presented as 'fact'.But I get fed up putting IMO after every single thing I say.Hope that's understood.Of course you can challenge everything I say but then I reserve the right to bite back

Opinions are like aresholes..everyone has them

Being the absolutely newest member here I might as well take this opportunity to say that I do in fact worship IQ,I have other prog favourites of course (chiefly Camel), but no one shines with greater intensity than IQ for me in the entire history of Prog. And this is for one simple fact: The emotional intensity and sincerity in their music is much greater than any band I have ever heard,for me they manage to wrench the last drop of emotion from every note much more profoundly than anyone else. Like no other band they simply get me right where I live. But that's the purely subjective,emotional view. From an intellectual,objective view, most of the original prog bands from the 70's are of course better,but if your response to music is objective and intellectual,rather than subjective and emotional,then we're dealing with a very odd person indeed!

Most of anyone's response to music,whether it's Elton John or Stockhausen,is based on that person's emotional response to that music and my emotional response to IQ is more intense and immediate than with any other Prog band,therefore I rate them as the greatest Prog band for me personally. In compiling the greatest Prog bands of all time,a more objective approach would have to be put into effect and while I would definitely have included IQ, they would not have been at the very top since there are bands that were,and are,more original and innovative than IQ and they would have taken presedence over IQ in a ranking of that type,but as for pure,immediate emotional response,IQ will always be my favourites.

And a very important point:

I can't remember who it was,but someone said that he gave up on IQ after the first two albums. Well,then you don't know much about the band at all since the first two albums pale considerably in comparison with the albums they've made since the early 90's,starting with "Ever" in 93 and carrying on through "Subteranea", "The Seventh House" and the latest, "Dark Matter". Those are the ones you must have heard to form a true picture of what IQ are all about,I'm not wild about either "Tales..." or "The Wake" myself. The band was still finding it's feet in those early days and both those albums have a slightly amateurish feel to them. I regard them as IQ's apprenticeship,a sort of "warm up" period before the brilliance of the band as they appear now.

I mostly agree with my Pixel friend. I don't disregard 'The Wake', since I consider a prog masterpiece of the 80s, but yes, IQ's finest hour has been happening since 1993. These guys keep exploring in their own style coherently, while managing to improve their cohesiveness as an ensamble and incorporating new tricks that give their current repertoire an additional fresh air. Nicholls' singing has become more special, and has grown tremedously as a lyricist. As I stated somewhere else, the closing track to 'The Seventh House' (an album I enjoy less than 'Ever' and 'Subterranea') Guiding Light comprises one of the most moving set of lyrics I've known for the last years.

I agree wholeheartedly with you about "Guiding Light" and as far as the first two albums are concerned,we will all have to reappraise  "Tales..."  when the new version they are recording these days hits the streets. One thing the new version definitely will have as a keen advantage to the original is a better sound quality which is one of my major gripes with the original,it sounds like a bad demo tape. And "Tales..." wasn't their actual debut of course,it was only their vinyl debut. Their actual debut was "Seven Stories Into Eight" from 82 which was only released on tape and in a very limited amount. They re-recorded that in 98 and called it "Seven Stories Into Ninety Eight" and it's overwhelmingly superior to the original tape release so I have high expectations for the new version of  "Tales...". And the next step on IQ's re-recording odyssey should be "The Wake" since that too suffers from a very poor production. And maybe "Nomzamo" and "Are You Sitting Comfortably" while they're at it? Only joking!

Certainly, one of the precursors of neo prog as many of you have added up in here. I don't think I'm much of an expert when it comes to IQ since I've only got 3 albums (but followed their prominent career); what I know is that "The Wake" is a determinant masterpiece to encourage the subsequent productions (and gems of neo prog rock), "The Seventh House" and "Dark Matter". Some other neo prog orientated bands, founded its beginnings on the IQ vein, that's for sure.

Regarding the issue about IQ relying on the GENESIS source, I think it's certainly false. As a precursor, the English neo prog band, came up with reinvented formulas, not copied or adopted. The sounds at some fragments may sound similar, since I believe a band has an iconic parameter to follow up and GENSIS was one of those to IQ; but the sound is completely different and renewed. IMHO, IQ is a proposing band, not a plagarist one.

I join in that bravo,a very good analysis of IQ.  And "The Enemy Smacks" had temporarily slipped my mind,Greenback. Another excellent IQ track and I look forward to that also getting the revamp treatment.

I have seen IQ a few times now as we are members of the CRS up in Rotherham UK (incidentally where IQ are playing at the awards night in November with Magenta)

I actually quite liked them the first time, it was the Subterranea tour I think as they had a projection backdrop that was very effective.

However, since then I've thought that Peter Nichols has become very operatic in his singing and performance and this becomes a bit irritating for me after a while. The albums I can take or leave they really do not do a lot for me but I admit they are a very good live band.

I was speaking to John Jowitt the Bass player of IQ last year when he was playing as part of the John Young Band and I told him that I enjoyed Jadis (one of his other bands) far more than IQ!!

Lynn- thanks for your post, and for keeping the plug subtle

What you say kinda confirms my opinion of the band (see above, if anyone cares at all). I bet IQ would be a lot of fun to see even for a non-fan like me; there's a lot of bands that are very cool live but the albums don't quite bear it out- including one of my favorites, the Dead. Heck, I even enjoyed a Morris Day & The Time show- long after the Paisley Park phenomenon was over...

Sorry about the constant plugging of you know who, I just can't help myself

Yes, I think that I have got into a lot of bands after we've seen them live, I suppose sometimes just listening to albums you can't always appreciate the musicianship and the sincerity of the band members.

It always amazes me how modest these wonderfully talented human beings are.

"And maybe "Nomzamo" and "Are You Sitting Comfortably" while they're at it?"

Not a bad idea, actually - but only the good songs from both albums in one CD. Some commercial songs by IQ were really good; with some subtly complicated arrangements they would get better.

I wonder how 'Common Ground' would sound like with Nicholls on lead voice.

Not yet,I thought I'd drop him a few lines at the weekend. I wonder if he's found anymore rattlesnakes in his garden? After you with the sun lounger...

greenback wrote: PL Menel has a better voice than Nichols! No doubt!

Um...can't agree on that one...sorry!

Maybe Menel has a better voice than Nicholls technically but he didn't manage to embody and express the soul of IQ's music the way Nicholls does. The combination of music and voice is perfectly integrated with Nicholls at the mike,but I always felt that Menel never fitted the concept.

And I will definitely ask Lunar to join us,and I hope he has a way of getting in touch with Leigh so that he could come along as well. I'm still waiting for his reaction to the latest Nightwish album that I recommended. He said he had ordered it and that was a few months ago so he should certainly have received it by now and I regard it as a masterpiece and I would like to know if he agrees. By the way,Nightwish doesn't appear in the Prog Archives listings and I think they should. Allright,they are essentially a metal band but they are so much more.Metal is just the basis of what they do,they definitely have strong prog leanings. If Dream Theater can be included I don't see why Nightwish shouldn't.

I have to say that IQ are a good band and have been a pillar in the prog community for many years but I believe it depends upon what criteria you are judging the bands in question. If it's on sales alone, I suspect the poor buggers wouldn't even register in the top 30 but if it's on sheer guts and their musical contribution, they would be always be in my top ten.

I suppose that's the trouble with subjective questions. It's just a matter of taste.

sigod wrote: I have to say that IQ are a good band and have been a pillar in the prog community for many years but I believe it depends upon what criteria you are judging the bands in question. If it's on sales alone, I suspect the poor buggers wouldn't even register in the top 30 but if it's on sheer guts and their musical contribution, they would be always be in my top ten. I suppose that's the trouble with subjective questions. It's just a matter of taste.

True but IQ are still around and still producing good music.They've never made a bad album but the snidey comments about them being 'neo prog' will abound I suppose.Pity because they deserve respect for keeping the genre going(along with Marillion and a few others) when everyone else was abandoning it.

I was lucky enough to be in a band that supported IQ at the Marquee (London, UK) back in Xmas of '88. IQ's singer at the time was Paul Menel who was absent as he had the flu so Martin Orford had to handle the vocal duities as well as the keyboards that night.

He did a fantastic job and I was mightly impressed by the performance they gave. In addition, they were very welcoming to us in the support band too, despite the added pressure of having to re-work their set at the last minute.

People might have reservations about some of the material that IQ have produced and I'm not a fan of all of their recorded output but I stand with my head held high when I say, you can't find a nicer, more professional bunch of guys. 

 I apoligize for the obseen comment i made earlier. I was feeling very giddy when i did it. I was a complete jackass and i admit it. Putting that remark on a forum is stupid on itself, but it was my first forum relpley ive made on this site. Which is really retarded. Again I apolagise. I hope you wont put this against me. Sorry for the bad misspelled words. my computers messed up right now and i cant abc it.

Eddy wrote:  I apoligize for the obseen comment i made earlier. I was feeling very giddy when i did it. I was a complete jackass and i admit it. Putting that remark on a forum is stupid on itself, but it was my first forum relpley ive made on this site. Which is really retarded. Again I apolagise. I hope you wont put this against me. Sorry for the bad misspelled words. my computers messed up right now and i cant abc it.

It's ok Eddy.Water under the bridge now.I've done something similar myself.The folks here are very forgiving

"Maybe Menel has a better voice than Nicholls technically but he didn't manage to embody and express the soul of IQ's music the way Nicholls does."

I absolutely agree with my fellow Pixel Pirate. Technically speaking, Menel is more proficient, but Nicholls is THE singer-lyricist-showman that IQ needs as an integral part of their music.

No, what abut that funny idea of re-recording the Nomzamo-AYSC stuff in a concise format? Here goes a possible tracklist: War Heroes - No Love Lost - Promises [with a Zero Hour-like arrangement] - Nostalgia - Falling Apart at the Seams - NTOC (Resistance) - Common Ground - Human Nature - Wurensh - Nothing at All

How about it?

Hi, Pixel, the Resistance song has been recorded with Nicholls on lead vocals. It is included in the 'Lost Attic' CD, and it really kicks ass - a hard rock number with a neoprog twist, and Nicholls delivering some furious singing with enthusiasm. Maybe in the original demos Menel gave it his touch, but Nicholls' touch is so special...

My Menel-era fave song is Common Ground, but my fave album is Are You Sitting Comfortably?

I actually knew that "N.T.O.C." is on "The Lost Attic" but I had forgotten. And I agree about "Are You Sitting Comfortably?",at least that it's better than "Nomzamo" which I still think is far too poppy.