Two genious.

Both are acoustic guitar monsters in different styles hackett is more flamenco oriented and Howe more classical and sometimes country-folk.

If we talk about electric guitar:

 Howe is technically better than Hackett, cleaner, faster, etc... but again "the feeling".......   Hackett just make me cry.... what about Supper´s ready final licks and the musical box guitar solo etc.

 My vote goes to Mr.Hackett

Both are very skilled, but Hackett's atmospheres were simply unique and his solo career is absolutely superior to Howe's.

SO.........STEVE HACKETT

Iván

FragileDT wrote: On another note. Does anybody know that Howe and Hackett formed a band in 86 I believe called "GTR." I'm pretty sure Hackett dropped out after the first album was released. They spent a long, long time in the studio recording it though.

Sadly we all can remember GTR, simply horrible.

Iván

I think Howe is technicaly better but Hackett is a real melody master. I don't know...

Anyway I prefer Genesis to yes but this is mainly becouse of Gabriel AND Banks.

Howe might be the more dexturous of the two, but Hackett is my favorite guitarist period....

There must be some multiple voting here.

Howe is the better by far, and possibly the greatest guitarist of all time. His versatility and ecclectism are unrivaled.

kirklott wrote: Howe is the better by far, and possibly the greatest guitarist of all time. His versatility and ecclectism are unrivaled.

Wersatility????? The guy has been playing the same two solos for more than 30 years (Clap and Mood for a Day) and during all that time, not a single variation or arrangement, the guy playes safe, his solo albums are closer to Yes than to anything else, he's skilled, but not versatile.

Hackett on the other hand, has played Prog', Classic Guitar, Rock, Pop, absolutely everything, that's versatility.

Iván

Howe is in my avatar right now so I'll vote for him.. but Hackett is definitely better :)

Progger wrote: I have spoken to artists to have played with both and they all said the same thing, 'Howe is the far better player'. Howe's awards in the field are unrivalled. I like Hackett but he was only a 'bit' part player in Genesis with too much inactivity!

A bit partof Genesis?

The atmospheric sound that was trademark of Genesis was created and developed by Hackett, Genesis resisted the departure of their lyricist and most charismatic figure (Peter Gabriel) but the quality went down when Steve left.

Which Howe awards? Howe made 90% of his career in Yes, Hackett has played with almost every Prog' musician and has probably the most solid solo career in Prog.

Iván

I do like Hackett especially his atmospherics but Howe is obviously the more melodic and technically gifted. I can play a little bit of guitar and Horizon's is very simple to play, as is his Genesis work.There's very few Howe licks I have mastered!

ivan_2068 wrote: kirklott wrote: Howe is the better by far, and possibly the greatest guitarist of all time. His versatility and ecclectism are unrivaled. Wersatility????? The guy has been playing the same two solos for more than 30 years (Clap and Mood for a Day) and during all that time, not a single variation or arrangement, the guy playes safe, his solo albums are closer to Yes than to anything else, he's skilled, but not versatile. Hackett on the other hand, has played Prog', Classic Guitar, Rock, Pop, absolutely everything, that's versatility. Iván

Ummm not to once again stir the pot between us, but I totally disagree with EVERYTHING you said Ivan, and I quite frankly have NO IDEA where you got your opinion from. First off, Steve Howe NEVER plays ANYTHING the extact same way twice. I have live performances of Mr. Howe performing Clap and Mood for a Day and each time there is something different. So that cancels out your argument there. Howe is EXTREMELY versatile..... MUCH MORE THAN HACKETT... Im sorry but lets use our ears please. Hackett's playing while it is indeed good, does not really strike me the way that Howe's playing does. Steve Howe is without a doubt one of the most emotive players I have ever heard.

Deliriumist wrote: I like Hackett more than Howe - Hackett's technique is better and he seems to be far more educated in the field of music. Howe just plays well and it looks like he's more into that country and rag and jazz thing.

..........What's wrong with the country/ jazz/ rag thing?????????????????

...oh you also forgot that he plays CLASSICAL guitar, BLUES, guitar, ROCK guitar.... he also uses a larger assortment of guitars than Hackett does.

ivan_2068 wrote: Progger wrote: I have spoken to artists to have played with both and they all said the same thing, 'Howe is the far better player'. Howe's awards in the field are unrivalled. I like Hackett but he was only a 'bit' part player in Genesis with too much inactivity! A bit partof Genesis? The atmospheric sound that was trademark of Genesis was created and developed by Hackett, Genesis resisted the departure of their lyricist and most charismatic figure (Peter Gabriel) but the quality went down when Steve left. Which Howe awards? Howe made 90% of his career in Yes, Hackett has played with almost every Prog' musician and has probably the most solid solo career in Prog. Iván

Ummm lets get something straight....THE Genesis sound WAS TONY BANKS.... NOT STEVE HACKETT!!

I don't buy the idea that Steve Hackett is a more emotional player than Steve Howe.... like I said, Steve Howe is one of the most emotive guitar players I have ever heard. There are FEW rock guitarists who play with more emotion than Mr. Howe.

And ladies and gentlemen lets get another thing straight...It is possible to be technically sound AND emotionally fluent.... technique and emotion DO NOT need to be separate!!

Proglover wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Progger wrote: I have spoken to artists to have played with both and they all said the same thing, 'Howe is the far better player'. Howe's awards in the field are unrivalled. I like Hackett but he was only a 'bit' part player in Genesis with too much inactivity! A bit partof Genesis? The atmospheric sound that was trademark of Genesis was created and developed by Hackett, Genesis resisted the departure of their lyricist and most charismatic figure (Peter Gabriel) but the quality went down when Steve left. Which Howe awards? Howe made 90% of his career in Yes, Hackett has played with almost every Prog' musician and has probably the most solid solo career in Prog. Iván Ummm lets get something straight....THE Genesis sound WAS TONY BANKS.... NOT STEVE HACKETT!!

NO way, The Genesis sound was the blending of Steve's gitar with Tony's keyboards.

Listen Firth of Fifth, the guitar sounds almost as a second keyboard, something hard to achieve in the 70's when there was no MIDI guitar.

And I insist, I see no versatility in Steve Howe, just listen Midsummer Night Dream by Hackett and tell me who is versatile and who's not.

By the way, I never judge the quality of the musician for how hard to play are his parts, I judge the quality of the music on the beauty of his work.

Iván

Here's a quote from Steve...Hackett that is  taken from an article in Classical Guitar (June 2005)

"I find the older I get, the more capable I am of playing quickly, but it's an important gear to avoid. It's important not to keep proving to people that you can play quickly and there is so [much] purely fast playing in rock music nowadays. I prefer the slow, legato line. It's important to learn all the properties of the guitar and an excess of technique doesn't really help you to write a simple tune. I'd rather be a composer than a virtuoso."

In other words, perhaps the two Steve's are not that far apart technique-wise, they just have a slightly different approach to the guitar in general...

Though I do think that Howe very often managed to incorporate virtuosity AND atmospheric musicality in an admirable way during the golden era of Yes (Drama included)

Still, I voted for Mr. Hackett -if only  because he is so far the only guitar player that has managed to reduce me to tears (Firth of Fifth and Hairless Heart)

ivan_2068 wrote: Proglover wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Progger wrote: I have spoken to artists to have played with both and they all said the same thing, 'Howe is the far better player'. Howe's awards in the field are unrivalled. I like Hackett but he was only a 'bit' part player in Genesis with too much inactivity! A bit partof Genesis? The atmospheric sound that was trademark of Genesis was created and developed by Hackett, Genesis resisted the departure of their lyricist and most charismatic figure (Peter Gabriel) but the quality went down when Steve left. Which Howe awards? Howe made 90% of his career in Yes, Hackett has played with almost every Prog' musician and has probably the most solid solo career in Prog. Iván Ummm lets get something straight....THE Genesis sound WAS TONY BANKS.... NOT STEVE HACKETT!! NO way, The Genesis sound was the blending of Steve's gitar with Tony's keyboards. Listen Firth of Fifth, the guitar sounds almost as a second keyboard, something hard to achieve in the 70's when there was no MIDI guitar. And I insist, I see no versatility in Steve Howe, just listen Midsummer Night Dream by Hackett and tell me who is versatile and who's not. By the way, I never judge the quality of the musician for how hard to play are his parts, I judge the quality of the music on the beauty of his work. Iván

Ahhhh yes, and you must not forget that BOTH TONY BANKS and MIKE RUTHERFORD doubled and tripled on guitars!!!!!!!!!!!

Proglover wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Proglover wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Progger wrote: I have spoken to artists to have played with both and they all said the same thing, 'Howe is the far better player'. Howe's awards in the field are unrivalled. I like Hackett but he was only a 'bit' part player in Genesis with too much inactivity! A bit partof Genesis? The atmospheric sound that was trademark of Genesis was created and developed by Hackett, Genesis resisted the departure of their lyricist and most charismatic figure (Peter Gabriel) but the quality went down when Steve left. Which Howe awards? Howe made 90% of his career in Yes, Hackett has played with almost every Prog' musician and has probably the most solid solo career in Prog. Iván Ummm lets get something straight....THE Genesis sound WAS TONY BANKS.... NOT STEVE HACKETT!! NO way, The Genesis sound was the blending of Steve's gitar with Tony's keyboards. Listen Firth of Fifth, the guitar sounds almost as a second keyboard, something hard to achieve in the 70's when there was no MIDI guitar. And I insist, I see no versatility in Steve Howe, just listen Midsummer Night Dream by Hackett and tell me who is versatile and who's not. By the way, I never judge the quality of the musician for how hard to play are his parts, I judge the quality of the music on the beauty of his work. Iván Ahhhh yes, and you must not forget that BOTH TONY BANKS and MIKE RUTHERFORD doubled and tripled on guitars!!!!!!!!!!!

Please only during some acustic sections of a couple of songs and on Entangled plus More Fool Me.

BTW: Jon Anderson also played guitar on a couple of songs.

But we all know that neither Banks or Rutherford and much less Anderson were in the level of Howe or Hackett.

Iván

Wow, what a poll!!

My two favorite guitarist as of late, and choosing between them is like pulling hairs.

I love Howe's mastery of the instrument, his incredible technique, and so on.

And Hackett for his style and finesse.

I selected Hackett in the poll, but I will forever love them both the same.

ivan_2068 wrote: Proglover wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Proglover wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Progger wrote: I have spoken to artists to have played with both and they all said the same thing, 'Howe is the far better player'. Howe's awards in the field are unrivalled. I like Hackett but he was only a 'bit' part player in Genesis with too much inactivity! A bit partof Genesis? The atmospheric sound that was trademark of Genesis was created and developed by Hackett, Genesis resisted the departure of their lyricist and most charismatic figure (Peter Gabriel) but the quality went down when Steve left. Which Howe awards? Howe made 90% of his career in Yes, Hackett has played with almost every Prog' musician and has probably the most solid solo career in Prog. Iván Ummm lets get something straight....THE Genesis sound WAS TONY BANKS.... NOT STEVE HACKETT!! NO way, The Genesis sound was the blending of Steve's gitar with Tony's keyboards. Listen Firth of Fifth, the guitar sounds almost as a second keyboard, something hard to achieve in the 70's when there was no MIDI guitar. And I insist, I see no versatility in Steve Howe, just listen Midsummer Night Dream by Hackett and tell me who is versatile and who's not. By the way, I never judge the quality of the musician for how hard to play are his parts, I judge the quality of the music on the beauty of his work. Iván Ahhhh yes, and you must not forget that BOTH TONY BANKS and MIKE RUTHERFORD doubled and tripled on guitars!!!!!!!!!!! Please only during some acustic sections of a couple of songs and on Entangled plus More Fool Me. BTW: Jon Anderson also played guitar on a couple of songs. But we all know that neither Banks or Rutherford and much less Anderson were in the level of Howe or Hackett. Iván

Ummmm with all due repsect to Jon Anderson, it is apparent that both Banks and Rutherford are more accomplished guitarists than Anderson. That being said you can OBVIOUSLY tell in YES, who is playing what. But because Genesis was a different band the guitar IS in the background.......and it's either Tony Bank's keyboards leading the charge or a blending of three guitars with the addition of Bancks and Rutherford added to Hackett's playing.....ONCE AND A WHILE, Hackett does play solos...I like Hackett alot, I have said many times.... that the Foxtrot album is simply not one of my favorites, and I said that the BEST TRACK on that entire album was Horizons, which was an acoustic guitar piece played by Hackett, so I do love Hackett.... BUT HE IS NO STEVE HOWE, SORRY!!!

Proglover wrote: Ummmm with all due repsect to Jon Anderson, it is apparent that both Banks and Rutherford are more accomplished guitarists than Anderson. As I said before, Banks and Rutherford only play ACUSTIC guitar on LIVE SHOWS on a few songs (A section of Supper's Ready, Musical Box (Only Banks), More Fool Me and Entangled), due to a simple reason, Steve Hackett only has two hands and can't overdub on stage. That being said you can OBVIOUSLY tell in YES, who is playing what. Well, Genesis needed a guitar player who added ATMOSPHERES, somehow in the style of Anthony Phillips, but Hackett did a better job. But the main reason is that GENESIS was a band of musicians that worked for Genesis, not just a collection of frontmen who tried to prove each one was better than the rest, in Genesis the show was made by Peter Gabriel, the rest of the members sticked to their instruments and the music. In Yes, you had Anderson singing, Wakeman using shinning capes and mirrors, Squire jumping all over the stage in satin capes and Steve Howe making faces as is he was suffering from indigestion, everyone tried to be the star. But you made a pouint, Steve's guitar was so unique that still today some people believe the guitar soolo on Firth of Fifth is done with keyboards. Don't misunderstand me, I love Yes, but for me Genesis is one step further.  But because Genesis was a different band the guitar IS in the background.......and it's either Tony Bank's keyboards leading the charge or a blending of three guitars with the addition of Bancks and Rutherford added to Hackett's playing Again we're talking about something that only happened on stage and in a couple of tracks, on studio Steve overdubed his parts, and sounded incredibly better. .....ONCE AND A WHILE, Hackett does play solos...I like Hackett alot, I have said many times.... that the Foxtrot album is simply not one of my favorites, and I said that the BEST TRACK on that entire album was Horizons, which was an acoustic guitar piece played by Hackett, Genesis music is not based in solos, more in complex harmonie, elaborate arrangements and inredible melodies (Last word edited), there's no Yes song without a solo by Howe, Squire or Wakeman. two different conceptions of music, and worked for both. If you want to listen Hackett's solos, you can buy Voyage of the Acolyte, Guitar Noir, Midsummer Night Dream, Tokyo Tapes and at least 20 more excellent albums.  so I do love Hackett.... BUT HE IS NO STEVE HOWE, SORRY!!! I also love Howe's guitar, but IMO he's no Hackett.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Proglover wrote: Ummmm with all due repsect to Jon Anderson, it is apparent that both Banks and Rutherford are more accomplished guitarists than Anderson. As I said before, Banks and Rutherford only play ACUSTIC guitar on LIVE SHOWS on a few songs (A section of Supper's Ready, Musical Box (Only Banks), More Fool Me and Entangled), due to a simple reason, Steve Hackett only has two hands and can't overdub on stage. That being said you can OBVIOUSLY tell in YES, who is playing what. Well, Genesis needed a guitar player who added ATMOSPHERES, somehow in the style of Anthony Phillips, but Hackett did a better job. But the main reason is that GENESIS was a band of musicians that worked for Genesis, not just a collection of frontmen who tried to prove each one was better than the rest, in Genesis the show was made by Peter Gabriel, the rest of the members sticked to their instruments and the music. In Yes, you had Anderson singing, Wakeman using shinning capes and mirrors, Squire jumping all over the stage in satin capes and Steve Howe making faces as is he was suffering from indigestion, everyone tried to be the star. But you made a pouint, Steve's guitar was so unique that still today some people believe the guitar soolo on Firth of Fifth is done with keyboards. Don't misunderstand me, I love Yes, but for me Genesis is one step further.  But because Genesis was a different band the guitar IS in the background.......and it's either Tony Bank's keyboards leading the charge or a blending of three guitars with the addition of Bancks and Rutherford added to Hackett's playing Again we're talking about something that only happened on stage and in a couple of tracks, on studio Steve overdubed his parts, and sounded incredibly better. .....ONCE AND A WHILE, Hackett does play solos...I like Hackett alot, I have said many times.... that the Foxtrot album is simply not one of my favorites, and I said that the BEST TRACK on that entire album was Horizons, which was an acoustic guitar piece played by Hackett, Genesis music is not based in solos, more in complex harmoonie, elaborate arrangements and invredible harmonies, there's no Yes song without a solo by Howe, Squire or Wakeman. two different conceptions of music, and worked for both. If you want to listen Hackett's solos, you can buy Voyage of the Acolyte, Guitar Noir, Midsummer Night Dream, Tokyo Tapes and at least 20 more excellent albums.  so I do love Hackett.... BUT HE IS NO STEVE HOWE, SORRY!!! I also love Howe's guitar, but IMO he's no Hackett. Iván

Ivan....you are OBVIOUSLY BIAS towards Genesis!!!!!!!............You're bias is clouding your good sense. I do not like YES more than Genesis, and I do not like Genesis more than YES.....i think they are two exceptional bands, who wrote great music......PERIOD!!!...........I can look at it OBJECTIVELY.......YOU CAN NOT which is apparent by your biased and far fetched conclusions about YES.

[QUOTE=Proglover] Ummmm with all due repsect to Jon Anderson, it is apparent that both Banks and Rutherford are more accomplished guitarists than Anderson.

As I said before, Banks and Rutherford only play ACUSTIC guitar on LIVE SHOWS on a few songs (A section of Supper's Ready, Musical Box (Only Banks), More Fool Me and Entangled), due to a simple reason, Steve Hackett only has two hands and can't overdub on stage.

HAHAHA Ivan, I am no fool..........OBVIOUSLY I realize what is going on...........Not once did I ever imply that Banks and Rutherford play the bulk of the guitar work, nor did I say that their doubling or trippling of guitar work was on a consistent basis. I think that what Hackett does in Genesis is beautiful. Obviously Hackett is a better guitarist than Banks and Rutherford, that is understatement.

But......once again he is no HOWE....... and what by chance is wrong with soloing????

And for the record I am QUITE aware of Hackett's solo albums, I have them all!! 

Yes, I like Genesis more than Yes, that's a fact I can't deny.

I only said that I believe Hackett is a more versatile guitar player and that I like his style and technique much more than Hopwes.

Genesis and Yes have different approachs, that's also a fact, lets see what I said:

1. Genesis works with atmospheric guitar (That's a fact)
2. Genesis had only one frontman (That's a fact) and most Yes members tried to takethe lead (That's also a fact)
3. You said that Banks and Rutherford helped Hackett with guitars, I said it's true, but only on stage and determined songs.
4. Yes members play solos and Genesis members mostly not, that's also a fact.
5. I also said I love Yes.

I can't understand where is your problem. I'm not the only person who believes Hackett is better than Howe.

Iván

Proglover wrote:

Not once did I ever imply that Banks and Rutherford play the bulk of the guitar work, nor did I say that their doubling or trippling of guitar work was on a consistent basis.

Please, it's obvious you impled that, and for that reason I quote you to remind:

Ahhhh yes, and you must not forget that BOTH TONY BANKS and MIKE RUTHERFORD doubled and tripled on guitars!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't this obvious? You never said on some songs, on live concerts, you just said they doubled and tripled guitars, in this context is obvious you implied it was done in a consistent way. 

But......once again he is no HOWE....... and what by chance is wrong with soloing????

I respect your opinion, but why don't you accept that I'm entitled to believe that Hackett is better????

It's obvious that you're not being objective, because at the level of Hackett and Howe oit's hard to say which one is better.

If it makes you happier I will rephrase, I like Hackett's guitar playing more than Howe's and I believe he's more versatile even when both are very skilled.

But I also believe Howe is no Hackett.

Iván

Steve Howe is my favourite guitarist.

Steve Hackett is also great !

ivan_2068 wrote: Yes, I like Genesis more than Yes, that's a fact I can't deny. I only said that I believe Hackett is a more versatile guitar player and that I like his style and technique much more than Hopwes. Genesis and Yes have different approachs, that's also a fact, lets see what I said: Genesis works with atmospheric guitar (That's a fact) Genesis had only one frontman (That's a fact) and most Yes members tried to takethe lead (That's also a fact) You said that Banks and Rutherford helped Hackett with guitars, I said it's true, but only on stage and determined songs. Yes members play solos and Genesis members mostly not, that's also a fact. I also said I love Yes. I can't understand where is your problem. I'm not the only person who believes Hackett is better than Howe. Iván

Soooooo basically, what you are saaying, is that Mr. Steve Howe NEVER plays the role of the atmospheric guitar???????????.......... OR HOW ABOUT THIS ONE......... are you telling me that there are times when Howe IS NOT playing in the background, where he is not playing solos????????? If your answer to these questions are yes, then you haven't really been listening to YES music. Howe takes the "secondary", "background" role more than people are willing to give him credit for.

OH BY THE WAY....THERE ARE ALOT OF SOLOS IN GENESIS MUSIC..........there is ALMOST one in every song I can think of.....either Hackett, Banks, or Gabriel on Flute.

Once again I pose the question....WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOLOING???

and as far as this nonsense of YES members trying to TAKE THE LEAD...... a great band needs TO WORK TOGETHER, a great band needs to be a COHESIVE UNIT.......... YES IS a cohesive unit. You can OBVIOUSLY hear that in the music......(well obviously, some people can't hear that). YES IS A BAND THAT WORKS TOGETHER!!

Oh and one more thing Ivan.......... once again, you have to use your ears....... you lose ALOT of credibility when you say something so obviously FALSE as "Steve Howe is NOT a versatile guitarist". I mean say whatever you want, in regards to personal taste.... if you like Hackett's style of playing over Steve Howe's style, then that's fine you are entitled to it...........but to be so openly biased and say something foolish, like Howe is not versatile is quite sad. I think Howe's work speaks for itself.

YOU CAN EVEN SAY..........."I HATE HOWE'S PLAYING!!!".........that I accept.............but you saying he's not versatile is a sin and a shame!!!..Shame on you Ivan.

...........ESPECIALLY since in the context of the two bands, YES and Genesis.........Hackett seems more restrained than Howe. The guitar in Genesis has a specific role.......DO NOT STEP ON TONY BANK'S TOES!!!!!!!!...........Steve Howe doesn't have those restrictions in YES and his playing is much freer, he does much more with the guitar, he uses the guitar is fun and interesting ways that Hackett doesnt, Howe is assigned to a larger assortment of roles than Hackett.

Howe is a painter, and his many guitars and their sounds are his pallette.......and YES is a band which allows him to explore his creativity.

Soooooo basically, what you are saaying, is that Mr. Steve Howe NEVER plays the role of the atmospheric guitar???????????.......... OR HOW ABOUT THIS ONE......... are you telling me that there are times when Howe IS NOT playing in the background, where he is not playing solos????????? If your answer to these questions are yes, then you haven't really been listening to YES music. Howe takes the "secondary", "background" role more than people are willing to give him credit for. Please, don't change my statements, I said that Hackett's playing is much more atmospheric, I never said that Howe never does atmospheric playing. Of course any person with two ears (Also with one) will notice that Genesis music is more based in atmospheres thab Yes music, but that doesn't mean tha Howre never did. Please, don't change my words to make your point, when I answer you, I do it point by point to avoid being accused of taking things out of context or changing your words. OH BY THE WAY....THERE ARE ALOT OF SOLOS IN GENESIS MUSIC..........there is ALMOST one in every song I can think of.....either Hackett, Banks, or Gabriel on Flute. Not as often as in Yes, that's the main argument of some members to day that Genesis is not a good band because they don't make too many solos. Just read all the threads about this issue. Once again I pose the question....WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOLOING??? Nothing, as I said,this are two different approachs to their playing, Genesis doesn't priviledge solos as much as Yes, this doesn't make them better or worst, just different. and as far as this nonsense of YES members trying to TAKE THE LEAD...... a great band needs TO WORK TOGETHER, a great band needs to be a COHESIVE UNIT.......... YES IS a cohesive unit. You can OBVIOUSLY hear that in the music......(well obviously, some people can't hear that). YES IS A BAND THAT WORKS TOGETHER!! It's obvious that Yes is a band that bases their playing in the virtuoso attributes of their members, and that everybody wants to be the star on stage, I seen Yes many times and my description of the behaviour of their members is accurate, just been checking some DVD's and I don't change my point of view. In Yes, doesn't Wakeman uses capes and acts as a second frontman? Doesn't Squire jumps all over the stage? Doesn't Howe makes faces during all the concert and takes the lead very often? Please, don't be blind. Look at any Genesis DVD (If you have one, because most are bootlegs), Hackett sits down in the left of the screen and doesn't take his kead from his guitar, Peter can be joking or using customs, but Steve never takes his eyes from the guitar, Mike Rutherford hides back in the left and you hardly see him. Tony doesn't take the head from his keyboard except in therare ocasions in which he plays the accustic guitar. Genesis has been accused on this forum hundreed of times of being a band without virtuosos (something with ehat I disagree) and Yes fans boast about how many great solos their members play, just check older threads. In Genesis Peter alone does the show and sometimes jokes with Phil who does the backing vocals, the rest of the members stick to their instruments. This is their style as Yes has it's own style, and it works for the two bands. .

That's my opinion and I won'tchange it, you only have to compare a Genesis bootleg with any Yes official DVD.

Proglover wrote in the next post:

Oh and one more thing Ivan.......... once again, you have to use your ears....... you lose ALOT of credibility when you say something so obviously FALSE as "Steve Howe is NOT a versatile guitarist". I mean say whatever you want, in regards to personal taste.... if you like Hackett's style of playing over Steve Howe's style, then that's fine you are entitled to it...........but to be so openly biased and say something foolish, like Howe is not versatile is quite sad. I think Howe's work speaks for itself. I just mention a fact, Steve Howe has been playin mostly the same two tracks on stage for 30 something years, and don't come me with the argument that each version of Clap or Mood for a Day is different to the other please, you don't have very much to change in an accustic solo. His solo career is mostly in the vein of what he does in Yes, so honestly I don't believe he's so versatile as many people believe. Look at Howe's career, he has Prog, Rock, Classical Guitar and even darker albums, each and every one is solid, he played with a lot of great musicians with opposite styles and doene it well, so that's why I believe he's much more versatile than Howe, again this is my opinion and I won't change it, the evidenceis clear for anyone who is willing o see it. YOU CAN EVEN SAY..........."I HATE HOWE'S PLAYING!!!".........that I accept.............but you saying he's not versatile is a sin and a shame!!!..Shame on you Ivan. I would be lying if said that I hate Howe's playing because he's clearly avirtuoso, but I don't believe I'm lying when I say I don't believe he's a versatile guitar player. ...........ESPECIALLY since in the context of the two bands, YES and Genesis.........Hackett seems more restrained than Howe. The guitar in Genesis has a specific role.......DO NOT STEP ON TONY BANK'S TOES!!!!!!!!...........Steve Howe doesn't have those restrictions in YES and his playing is much freer, he does much more with the guitar, he uses the guitar is fun and interesting ways that Hackett doesnt, Howe is assigned to a larger assortment of roles than Hackett. You're making my point, Genesis was a band in which the musicians played for the brightness of the band, there was less freedom for their members, because each one had a determined job and did it as a well oiled machine, if you want to listen Hackett playing with absolute freedom, listen his solo albums which you sauid you own. Howe is a painter, and his many guitars and their sounds are his pallette.......and YES is a band which allows him to explore his creativity. And you dare to talk me of subjectivity and being oriented towards Genesis (Something I don't deny)?????  Please, you're doing a poetic description of Howe's style, what is not wrong because you're a Yes fan, but don't say you're objective and I'm subjctive. We both are fans, but at least I admit it and use examples with muy arguments. Pot....kettle

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Proglover wrote: Soooooo basically, what you are saaying, is that Mr. Steve Howe NEVER plays the role of the atmospheric guitar???????????.......... OR HOW ABOUT THIS ONE......... are you telling me that there are times when Howe IS NOT playing in the background, where he is not playing solos????????? If your answer to these questions are yes, then you haven't really been listening to YES music. Howe takes the "secondary", "background" role more than people are willing to give him credit for. Please, don't change my statements, I said that Hackett's playing is much more atmospheric, I never said that Howe never does atmospheric playing. Of course any person with two ears (Also with one) will notice that Genesis music is more based in atmospheres thab Yes music, but that doesn't mean tha Howre never did. Please, don't change my words to make your point, when I answer you, I do it point by point to avoid being accused of taking things out of context or changing your words. OH BY THE WAY....THERE ARE ALOT OF SOLOS IN GENESIS MUSIC..........there is ALMOST one in every song I can think of.....either Hackett, Banks, or Gabriel on Flute. Not as often as in Yes, that's the main argument of some members to day that Genesis is not a good band because they don't make too many solos. Just read all the threads about this issue. Once again I pose the question....WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOLOING??? Nothing, as I said,this are two different approachs to their playing, Genesis doesn't priviledge solos as much as Yes, this doesn't make them better or worst, just different. and as far as this nonsense of YES members trying to TAKE THE LEAD...... a great band needs TO WORK TOGETHER, a great band needs to be a COHESIVE UNIT.......... YES IS a cohesive unit. You can OBVIOUSLY hear that in the music......(well obviously, some people can't hear that). YES IS A BAND THAT WORKS TOGETHER!! It's obvious that Yes is a band that bases their playing in the virtuoso attributes of their members, and that everybody wants to be the star on stage, I seen Yes many times and my description of the behaviour of their members is accurate, just been checking some DVD's and I don't change my point of view. In Yes, doesn't Wakeman uses capes and acts as a second frontman? Doesn't Squire jumps all over the stage? Doesn't Howe makes faces during all the concert and takes the lead very often? Please, don't be blind. Look at any Genesis DVD (If you have one, because most are bootlegs), Hackett sits down in the left of the screen and doesn't take his kead from his guitar, Peter can be joking or using customs, but Steve never takes his eyes from the guitar, Mike Rutherford hides back in the left and you hardly see him. Tony doesn't take the head from his keyboard except in therare ocasions in which he plays the accustic guitar. Genesis has been accused on this forum hundreed of times of being a band without virtuosos (something with ehat I disagree) and Yes fans boast about how many great solos their members play, just check older threads. In Genesis Peter alone does the show and sometimes jokes with Phil who does the backing vocals, the rest of the members stick to their instruments. This is their style as Yes has it's own style, and it works for the two bands. . That's my opinion and I won'tchange it, you only have to compare a Genesis bootleg with any Yes official DVD. Proglover wrote in the next post: Oh and one more thing Ivan.......... once again, you have to use your ears....... you lose ALOT of credibility when you say something so obviously FALSE as "Steve Howe is NOT a versatile guitarist". I mean say whatever you want, in regards to personal taste.... if you like Hackett's style of playing over Steve Howe's style, then that's fine you are entitled to it...........but to be so openly biased and say something foolish, like Howe is not versatile is quite sad. I think Howe's work speaks for itself. I just mention a fact, Steve Howe has been playin mostly the same two tracks on stage for 30 something years, and don't come me with the argument that each version of Clap or Mood for a Day is different to the other please, you don't have very much to change in an accustic solo. His solo career is mostly in the vein of what he does in Yes, so honestly I don't believe he's so versatile as many people believe. Look at Howe's career, he has Prog, Rock, Classical Guitar and even darker albums, each and every one is solid, he played with a lot of great musicians with opposite styles and doene it well, so that's why I believe he's much more versatile than Howe, again this is my opinion and I won't change it, the evidenceis clear for anyone who is willing o see it. YOU CAN EVEN SAY..........."I HATE HOWE'S PLAYING!!!".........that I accept.............but you saying he's not versatile is a sin and a shame!!!..Shame on you Ivan. I would be lying if said that I hate Howe's playing because he's clearly avirtuoso, but I don't believe I'm lying when I say I don't believe he's a versatile guitar player. ...........ESPECIALLY since in the context of the two bands, YES and Genesis.........Hackett seems more restrained than Howe. The guitar in Genesis has a specific role.......DO NOT STEP ON TONY BANK'S TOES!!!!!!!!...........Steve Howe doesn't have those restrictions in YES and his playing is much freer, he does much more with the guitar, he uses the guitar is fun and interesting ways that Hackett doesnt, Howe is assigned to a larger assortment of roles than Hackett. You're making my point, Genesis was a band in which the musicians played for the brightness of the band, there was less freedom for their members, because each one had a determined job and did it as a well oiled machine, if you want to listen Hackett playing with absolute freedom, listen his solo albums which you sauid you own. Howe is a painter, and his many guitars and their sounds are his pallette.......and YES is a band which allows him to explore his creativity. And you dare to talk me of subjectivity and being oriented towards Genesis (Something I don't deny)?????  Please, you're doing a poetic description of Howe's style, what is not wrong because you're a Yes fan, but don't say you're objective and I'm subjctive. We both are fans, but at least I admit it and use examples with muy arguments. Pot....kettle Iván

First off you are a LIAR......you indeed have twisted my words...so dont you DARE act divine, when you damn sure ain't

Secondly.I DISAGREE!!!!!!.....In MY OPINION YES MUSIC IS MORE ATMOSPHERIC THAN GENESIS MUSIC.

Im trying really hard to be nice.....but lets me try and state this another way so maybe you can understand. YES DOES NOT BASE ITS MUSIC ON VIRTUOSITY.....any virtuoso playing in YES is due to the demands of the MUSIC. NOW a band that DOES base their music on their playing is Dream Theater....NOT YES..........wake up please!!

And for the record I HAVE SEEN AND HEARD Howe play....and HE NEVER PLAYS ANYTHING THE EXACT SAME WAY........so dont you dare tell me that it's not true.

YOU ARE THE BLIND ONE MY FRIEND!!!!!!!!!! Their actions on stage have NOTHING TO do with "trying to be the leader" as you so STUPIDLY and INACCURATELY have come up with. You really know not of what you speak. I'm sorry to tell you, but it must be said.

And for the Record....I LOVE GENESIS....I think they are a great band full of great musicians.....but lets not confuse the point......we are not comparing bands, or atleast Im not....we are comparing STEVE HOWE AND STEVE HACKETT...that is all I am doing.... ONE AGAIN, I LOVE GENESIS, and quite frankly people who say that they didn't have virtuoso players, or who would even criticize their music on such a shallow basis are idiots....so don't you dare throw that in my face buddy, cause it ain't working over here.

I said before that I loved both YES and GENESIS.....please do not tell me that I dont....you do not know me, so dont you tell me what I think and what I dont, cause I will cut you down. This conversation just got nasty.

Hackett is better than Howe in every respect, especially on the acoustic where he is a true virtuoso (and acknowledged as such by top classical guitarists). His electric playing is excellent too.

I've never rated Howe that highly - he hits lots of bum notes in Yessongs.

Proglover I won't honour your last post full of insults with a reply.

Just for the record, I have quoted each and every word from your posts and answered individually each parragraph and statement, something you can do when yopu have arguments, answering at the end with a couple of phrases is easy, so I never twisted your words, quoted and answered each and every one invidually.

When you learn to debate with intelligent arguments and without cheap insults, respecting everybody's opinions,  come back.

Just remember that the offence is the last resource when someone doesn't have an argument.

Iván

Tony Fisher wrote: Hackett is better than Howe in every respect, especially on the acoustic where he is a true virtuoso (and acknowledged as such by top classical guitarists). His electric playing is excellent too. I've never rated Howe that highly - he hits lots of bum notes in Yessongs.

You must have a different 'YESSONGS' to me! Steve Howe was an in demand session player before and after Yes. Even Brian May got Howe to play classical guitar on innuendo. I don't recall Hackett ever being asked to play on anybodies record but his own!

STEVE HOWE wins this contest by some considerable margin!

ivan_2068 wrote: Proglover I won't honour your last post full of insults with a reply. Just for the record, I have quoted each and every word from your posts and answered individually each parragraph and statement, something you can do when yopu have arguments, answering at the end with a couple of phrases is easy, so I never twisted your words, quoted and answered each and every one invidually. When you learn to debate with intelligent arguments and without cheap insults, respecting everybody's opinions,  come back. Just remember that the offence is the last resource when someone doesn't have an argument. Iván

No I disagree, there were moments where you did imply things in my comments that simply were not true....so once again, honored member or not, do not act innocent. And to my way of things YOU were the one who began the rude comments. So what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you dont like cheap shots dont take cheap shots at me. Quite frankly I found YOUR post to be offensive to me.

And as far as respecting people's opinion....I can not respect opinions that are based in FALLACY.

.....and Ivan.....as far as the way YES "behaves" on stage....lets get things straight.....

You are criticizing YES for being showmen?????????????

You are criticizing Yes for being performers and entertainers??????????

I think you should reexamine the criteria in which you use to criticize bands..........that is the most ridiculous and outlandish thing I have heard in a while.

Since you "know" so much about Genesis lets talk about their beginnings. And before I begin this story don't you DARE, call me a liar, because this is coming straight from the horses' mouth.....Genesis became a band in the first place because NO ONE wanted to play the music they were writing. Genesis did not start out as a band, Genesis (mostly Tony Banks) began writing music for OTHER people to play, and like I said the reason they became a band was to start performing the music that the people who they were writing for didn't want.

Tony Banks and most of Genesis never wanted to be performers.... they didn't see themselves as being performers. They were somewhat forced to. So of course they are going to behave on stage in a different manner than YES. Why are you bad mouthing YES for being performers and showmen????????............ like I said its ridiculous.

But first of all, how the two bands act on stage has nothing to do with their music, or musicianship.........so what the hell are you talking about. Like I said in the past post which you were too cowardly to respond to.... we are not comparing the bands, we are only comparing HOWE AND HACKETT.

AND HERE IS A REVOLUTIONARY THOUGHT!!!!!!..................perhaps YES genuinely feels the music, perhaps YES are moved by the music and it resurrects itself in the fashion of what you so inaccurately refer to as trying to be leaders. And as far as Rick Wakeman is concerned.....yes he wears capes.....OH MY GOD WHAT A SIN, HE SHOULD GO TO HELL FOR WEARING A CAPE............but look at how he plays...........Wakeman is NOT a flashy player at all.....HE SIMPLY PLAYS!! He doesn't move alot, he barely shows any facial expressions, most times he has his eyes closed...............HE JUST WEARS A CAPE........someone shoot him for wearing a cape. he's trying to be the leader...SHOOT HIM!!!................Give me a break Ivan.

SOMEONE SHOOT CHRIS SQUIRE FOR JUMPING AROUND THE STAGE.....god forbid he get excited about the music he's playing.......god knows he's played it hundreds of times. And please crucify HOWE for showing facial expressions....these YES guys are losers.....they should stand still like Genesis. Because Genesis is the only true way for a band to behave......once again, give me a break Ivan. You're being silly.

Proglover wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Proglover I won't honour your last post full of insults with a reply. Just for the record, I have quoted each and every word from your posts and answered individually each parragraph and statement, something you can do when yopu have arguments, answering at the end with a couple of phrases is easy, so I never twisted your words, quoted and answered each and every one invidually. When you learn to debate with intelligent arguments and without cheap insults, respecting everybody's opinions,  come back. Just remember that the offence is the last resource when someone doesn't have an argument. Iván No I disagree, there were moments where you did imply things in my comments that simply were not true....so once again, honored member or not, do not act innocent. And to my way of things YOU were the one who began the rude comments. So what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you dont like cheap shots dont take cheap shots at me. Quite frankly I found YOUR post to be offensive to me. And as far as respecting people's opinion....I can not respect opinions that are based in FALLACY.

There's no fallacy in art because it's not an exact science, one man's trash is other man's treasure.

I'm not an honored member, I said I wouldn't honour your insults with a reply.

I'm not the owner of the truth neither are you, the difference is that I don't call you stupid or ignorant, I never wrote personal attacks against you or against any person who believes Howe is a better guitar player.

The posts are there for everybody to read and find who started with personal insults and who never insulted the other part, just read them.

I quoted each and every parragraph you wrote, giving my arguments in each and every one, I never added a coma, just copied your COMPLETE posts.

At the end of your post you write a poetic phrase praising Howe's abbilities comparing him with a painter and then you claim you're not talking as a fan.

Your arguments are as valid as mine, and at least 50% of the members of this place  like Hackett's  style more than Howe's.

Iván

Proglover wrote: .....and Ivan.....as far as the way YES "behaves" on stage....lets get things straight..... You are criticizing YES for being showmen????????????? NO, I only described the way they act on stage, which is different from Genesis approach to stage acts. You are criticizing Yes for being performers and entertainers?????????? Again NO, I was only comparing two different styles. I think you should reexamine the criteria in which you use to criticize bands..........that is the most ridiculous and outlandish thing I have heard in a while. I would agree with you if I was making a critic, I never made acritic even said this style worked for Yes, comparing is not criticizing PLEASE!!!!! Since you "know" so much about Genesis lets talk about their beginnings. And before I begin this story don't you DARE, call me a liar, because this is coming straight from the horses'  mouth..... Please ask that to the ones that call other liars, I NEVER CALLED ANYBODY LIAR, AS A FACT I NEVER WROTE THE WORD LIAR!!!! BTW: Yes I know pretty much about early Genesis, because it's my favorite band. Genesis became a band in the first place because NO ONE wanted to play the music they were writing. Genesis did not start out as a band, Genesis (mostly Tony Banks) began writing music for OTHER people to play, and like I said the reason they became a band was to start performing the music that the people who they were writing for didn't want. Seems you are mistaken, Genesis started as a band since they were 17 years old at Charterhouse School, please before you write something, check it you can read the quotes a few lines bellow. Genesis members formed the band AT SCHOOL they never wrote music for other people. Tony Banks and Peter Gabriel started as members of a band called The Garden Wall while Mike Rutherford and Anthony Phillips started playing in a band called The Anon, when all of them  were 15 except Anthoony Phillips who was 14. The group had its roots in the Garden Wall, a band founded by 15 year olds Peter Gabriel and Tony Banks in 1965 at Charterhouse School in Godalming, Surrey, where fellow students Michael Rutherford and Anthony Phillips were members of another group called Anon. The two groups initially merged out of expediency as the older members of each graduated; Gabriel, Banks, Rutherford, Phillips, and drummer Chris Stewart soon joined together as the New Anon, and recorded a six-song demo featuring songs primarily written by Rutherford and Phillips. http://music.yahoo.com/ar-315307-bio--Genesis - http://music.yahoo.com/ar-315307-bio--Genesis   So they were creating and performing their own music SINCE 1965 when they were 15 years old, they never wrote music for anybody except for them  (The Anon, The Garden Wall, The New Anon and Genesis, bands in which they performed frm the start of their careers=). Before Genesis members left school, they asked an older ex student from their school nemed Jonathan King to produce THE MUSIC THEY WROTE AND PLAYED. The Charterhouse connection worked in their favor when ex-student, recording artist, and producer Jonathan King heard the tape and arranged for the group to continue working in the studio, developing their sound. It was also King who renamed the band Genesis. In December of 1967 the group had its first formal recording sessions. Their debut single, "The Silent Sun," was released in February of 1968 without attracting much notice from the public. A second single, "A Winter's Tale," followed just about the time that Chris Stewart quit -- his replacement, John Silver, joined just in time to participate in the group's first LP sessions that summer. King later added orchestral accompaniment to the band's tracks, in order to make them sound even more like the Moody Blues, and the resulting album, entitled From Genesis to Revelation, was released in March of 1969. http://music.yahoo.com/ar-315307-bio--Genesis - http://music.yahoo.com/ar-315307-bio--Genesis   As you can see, Genesis was formed WHEN THEY WERE 16 AND 17 YEARS OLD, they never had time to write music for others, they were at school for God's sake and they already were performers. Won't call you liar, but I assure you all your information is wrong Tony Banks and most of Genesis never wanted to be performers.... Tony Banks as I said before was already a performer at the age of 15 in a band called The Garden Wall with Peter Gabriel, they made the music and they played it. Tony was Genesis keyboardist since he was 17 and the band formed. Probably you're mistaken with Anthony Phillips, who left Genesis because he had stage panic, but Genesis was born as a band with members who were performing on two bands previously mentioned. they didn't see themselves as being performers. They were somewhat forced to. So of course they are going to behave on stage in a different manner than YES. I don't know where you get your information, but every source repeats what I wrote, and the evidence is clear, they always were performers, when otherkids were playing soccer, they were already performing and writting music.  Why are you bad mouthing YES for being performers and showmen????????............ like I said its ridiculous. Again, I'm just making a comparison about two different styles and approachs to music, not criticizing their styles, if you consider that calling Yes members virtuosos is an insult, I can't understand your poisition. But first of all, how the two bands act on stage has nothing to do with their music, or musicianship.........so what the hell are you talking about. Like I said in the past post which you were too cowardly to respond to.... we are not comparing the bands, we are only comparing HOWE AND HACKETT. In first place I'm never afraid to answer a post, so don't start calling me a coward, I have proved that with almost 3,000 posts that I always answer what I'm asked, and normally I have enough evidence to support my arguments.. And yes, I believe it's pertinent to compare the ttwo bands styles because that style is the source where their members acquiredtheir styles AND HERE IS A REVOLUTIONARY THOUGHT!!!!!!..................perhaps YES genuinely feels the music, perhaps YES are moved by the music and it resurrects itself in the fashion of what you so inaccurately refer to as trying to be leaders. And as far as Rick Wakeman is concerned.....yes he wears capes.....OH MY GOD WHAT A SIN, HE SHOULD GO TO HELL FOR WEARING A CAPE............but look at how he plays...........Wakeman is NOT a flashy player at all.....HE SIMPLY PLAYS!! He doesn't move alot, he barely shows any facial expressions, most times he has his eyes closed...............HE JUST WEARS A CAPE........someone shoot him for wearing a cape. he's trying to be the leader...SHOOT HIM!!!................Give me a break Ivan. I was just pointing he wears a cape and likes attention, comparing him with Tony Banks style who hides behind his keyboard, to be honest I believe Wakeman is more technically skilled than Banks, read all my reviews about Wakeman albums, and you'll find that the ones I reviewed have been rated with 4 or 5 stars. SOMEONE SHOOT CHRIS SQUIRE FOR JUMPING AROUND THE STAGE.....god forbid he get excited about the music he's playing.......god knows he's played it hundreds of times. And please crucify HOWE for showing facial expressions....these YES guys are losers.....they should stand still like Genesis. Because Genesis is the only true way for a band to behave......once again, give me a break Ivan. You're being silly. For God's sake, READ MY POSTS, I'm just describing their styles, and I clearly said that it works for them, can anyone of you understand what do we write?????????? It's useless, you will understand what you want to understand, I never said Yes were a bad band or anything similar, I just described my perspective about their style, never used an adjective to qualify them.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Proglover wrote: .....and Ivan.....as far as the way YES "behaves" on stage....lets get things straight..... You are criticizing YES for being showmen????????????? NO, I only described the way they act on stage, which is different from Genesis approach to stage acts. You are criticizing Yes for being performers and entertainers?????????? Again NO, I was only comparing two different styles. I think you should reexamine the criteria in which you use to criticize bands..........that is the most ridiculous and outlandish thing I have heard in a while. I would agree with you if I was making a critic, I never made acritic even said this style worked for Yes, comparing is not criticizing PLEASE!!!!! Since you "know" so much about Genesis lets talk about their beginnings. And before I begin this story don't you DARE, call me a liar, because this is coming straight from the horses'  mouth..... Please ask that to the ones that call other liars, I NEVER CALLED ANYBODY LIAR, AS A FACT I NEVER WROTE THE WORD LIAR!!!! BTW: Yes I know pretty much about early Genesis, because it's my favorite band. Genesis became a band in the first place because NO ONE wanted to play the music they were writing. Genesis did not start out as a band, Genesis (mostly Tony Banks) began writing music for OTHER people to play, and like I said the reason they became a band was to start performing the music that the people who they were writing for didn't want. Seems you are mistaken, Genesis started as a band since they were 17 years old at Charterhouse School, please before you write something, check it you can read the quotes a few lines bellow. Genesis members formed the band AT SCHOOL they never wrote music for other people. Tony Banks and Peter Gabriel started as members of a band called The Garden Wall while Mike Rutherford and Anthony Phillips started playing in a band called The Anon, when all of them  were 15 except Anthoony Phillips who was 14. The group had its roots in the Garden Wall, a band founded by 15 year olds Peter Gabriel and Tony Banks in 1965 at Charterhouse School in Godalming, Surrey, where fellow students Michael Rutherford and Anthony Phillips were members of another group called Anon. The two groups initially merged out of expediency as the older members of each graduated; Gabriel, Banks, Rutherford, Phillips, and drummer Chris Stewart soon joined together as the New Anon, and recorded a six-song demo featuring songs primarily written by Rutherford and Phillips. http://music.yahoo.com/ar-315307-bio--Genesis - http://music.yahoo.com/ar-315307-bio--Genesis   So they were creating and performing their own music SINCE 1965 when they were 15 years old, they never wrote music for anybody except for them  (The Anon, The Garden Wall, The New Anon and Genesis, bands in which they performed frm the start of their careers=). Before Genesis members left school, they asked an older ex student from their school nemed Jonathan King to produce THE MUSIC THEY WROTE AND PLAYED. The Charterhouse connection worked in their favor when ex-student, recording artist, and producer Jonathan King heard the tape and arranged for the group to continue working in the studio, developing their sound. It was also King who renamed the band Genesis. In December of 1967 the group had its first formal recording sessions. Their debut single, "The Silent Sun," was released in February of 1968 without attracting much notice from the public. A second single, "A Winter's Tale," followed just about the time that Chris Stewart quit -- his replacement, John Silver, joined just in time to participate in the group's first LP sessions that summer. King later added orchestral accompaniment to the band's tracks, in order to make them sound even more like the Moody Blues, and the resulting album, entitled From Genesis to Revelation, was released in March of 1969. http://music.yahoo.com/ar-315307-bio--Genesis - http://music.yahoo.com/ar-315307-bio--Genesis   As you can see, Genesis was formed WHEN THEY WERE 16 AND 17 YEARS OLD, they never had time to write music for others, they were at school for God's sake and they already were performers. Won't call you liar, but I assure you all your information is wrong Tony Banks and most of Genesis never wanted to be performers.... Tony Banks as I said before was already a performer at the age of 15 in a band called The Garden Wall with Peter Gabriel, they made the music and they played it. Tony was Genesis keyboardist since he was 17 and the band formed. Probably you're mistaken with Anthony Phillips, who left Genesis because he had stage panic, but Genesis was born as a band with members who were performing on two bands previously mentioned. they didn't see themselves as being performers. They were somewhat forced to. So of course they are going to behave on stage in a different manner than YES. I don't know where you get your information, but every source repeats what I wrote, and the evidence is clear, they always were performers, when otherkids were playing soccer, they were already performing and writting music.  Why are you bad mouthing YES for being performers and showmen????????............ like I said its ridiculous. Again, I'm just making a comparison about two different styles and approachs to music, not criticizing their styles, if you consider that calling Yes members virtuosos is an insult, I can't understand your poisition. But first of all, how the two bands act on stage has nothing to do with their music, or musicianship.........so what the hell are you talking about. Like I said in the past post which you were too cowardly to respond to.... we are not comparing the bands, we are only comparing HOWE AND HACKETT. In first place I'm never afraid to answer a post, so don't start calling me a coward, I have proved that with almost 3,000 posts that I always answer what I'm asked, and normally I have enough evidence to support my arguments.. And yes, I believe it's pertinent to compare the ttwo bands styles because that style is the source where their members acquiredtheir styles AND HERE IS A REVOLUTIONARY THOUGHT!!!!!!..................perhaps YES genuinely feels the music, perhaps YES are moved by the music and it resurrects itself in the fashion of what you so inaccurately refer to as trying to be leaders. And as far as Rick Wakeman is concerned.....yes he wears capes.....OH MY GOD WHAT A SIN, HE SHOULD GO TO HELL FOR WEARING A CAPE............but look at how he plays...........Wakeman is NOT a flashy player at all.....HE SIMPLY PLAYS!! He doesn't move alot, he barely shows any facial expressions, most times he has his eyes closed...............HE JUST WEARS A CAPE........someone shoot him for wearing a cape. he's trying to be the leader...SHOOT HIM!!!................Give me a break Ivan. I was just pointing he wears a cape and likes attention, comparing him with Tony Banks style who hides behind his keyboard, to be honest I believe Wakeman is more technically skilled than Banks, read all my reviews about Wakeman albums, and you'll find that the ones I reviewed have been rated with 4 or 5 stars. SOMEONE SHOOT CHRIS SQUIRE FOR JUMPING AROUND THE STAGE.....god forbid he get excited about the music he's playing.......god knows he's played it hundreds of times. And please crucify HOWE for showing facial expressions....these YES guys are losers.....they should stand still like Genesis. Because Genesis is the only true way for a band to behave......once again, give me a break Ivan. You're being silly. For God's sake, READ MY POSTS, I'm just describing their styles, and I clearly said that it works for them, can anyone of you understand what do we write?????????? It's useless, you will understand what you want to understand, I never said Yes were a bad band or anything similar, I just described my perspective about their style, never used an adjective to qualify them. Iván

HAHAHAHAHA..........then TONY BANKS IS A LIAR THEN because I have him on tape saying how the band started..................so take it up with him not with me.

Once again, then Tony Banks must have alzheimers, because those words came out of his mouth Ivan...........why the hell would I make that up???

Second of all Ivan....no, you were not simply just describing their styles.........you were derogatory when talking about YES......and you made it seem that Genesis was the greater band because they STAND STILL...............PLEASE!!!!

THIRD OF ALL how the bands behave on stage should not have even come up.........IT HAS NOTHING TO DO with HOWE AND HACKETT.........now their musical roles in the bands, yes that does have importance and is relevant to the conversation.....but the bands demeanor is not.

And yes for the record, you WERE implying that EVERYONE in YES wanted to be the leader, and show off, and be the main attraction, and you criticized them for it............maybe you should go back and read your own damn posts. First off your misinterpretation of what happens on stage is quite scary.

Look both Genesis and YES are fine bands, that wrote great music................personally if you ask me......Gentle Giant as a band, pound for pound, wipes the floor with both YES and Genesis.

I have only your word which honestly means nothing against solid evidence, you can read any biography of Genesis, and you'll find this information.

Read Gallo's books, buy the DVD Genesis a History or simply check if the mentioned bands existed.

• Can you deny Tony Banks played at the age of 15 in the band called The Garden Wall? No you can't.
• Can you deny that Gabriel, Banks, Rutherford and Phillips formed Genesis in 1967? No you can't.
• Can you deny they formed Genesis in Charterhouse School? No you can't.
• Can you deny Tony Banks started his career in Genesis as a performer? Again you can't

All I said can be proved beyond any doubt, probably you misunderstood Banks (If your tape is real, because I have no evidence), maybe he had the secret desire to write music for others (I'm not inside his mind), but he started creating music for two bands in which he performed and that's a fact.

I can believe maybe Tony Banks never wanted to be a soloist performer, his few albums may prove this, but to say he started trying to sell music for others is an historic aberration.

BUT FACTS ARE FACTS:

1. Banks NEVER WROTE MUSIC FOR ANYBODY ELSE BEFORE FORMING GENESIS.
2. Banks started performing at the age of 15 in The Garden Wall
3. Bamks FOUNDED GENESIS AS KEYBOARDIST WHEN HE WAS 17 AND STILL IN SCHOOL.

Sorry, but according to your interpretation of what I wrote your ABSOLUTE LACK OF EVIDENCE and THE HISTORIC EVIDENCE I PROVIDED, I can't believe you at all.

Listen again the tape (if it exists) and try understand what he ment, if you want you can check the extense bibliography anout Genesis, no one mentions a single woord you wrote here and all support what I'm saying.

Iván

In first place I must admit that I checked all the info and Banks once stated that when he was young he believed he didn't wanted to pass all his life touring and playing concerts, but he never tried to sell his music or as you said they formed Genesis because nobody wanted to buy his music that's BS, it was only an aspiration of a 15 years kid for the future, because he's not too fond on shows.

But he started his career as a keyboardist and only wrote music for Garden Wall and Genesis, again that's a fact.

Now to your last post:

Second of all Ivan....no, you were not simply just describing their styles.........you were derogatory when talking about YES......and you made it seem that Genesis was the greater band because they STAND STILL...............PLEASE!!!! I know what I said and what I mean, if you're so sure I ever said something offensive against Yes, QUOTE ME!!!!!!! Did I say Howe or Yes suck? Did I say Yes concerts are bad?, again, if I said it QUOTE ME. With your absolute not knowledge of Genesis history you have proved that you have some troubles understanding what people means. THIRD OF ALL how the bands behave on stage should not have even come up.........IT HAS NOTHING TO DO with HOWE AND HACKETT.........now their musical roles in the bands, yes that does have importance and is relevant to the conversation.....but the bands demeanor is not. I didn't brought the Yes vs Genesis thing, I believe it was YOU who said well Banks and Rutherford dobled and tripled Hackett, I believe he also said that Hackett was not responsible for Genesis sound but Banks, so the one that brought the issue here, was not me. Proglover wrote: Ummm lets get something straight....THE Genesis sound WAS TONY BANKS.... NOT STEVE HACKETT!!  It was you who istarted the band comparison, before that point I never mentioned any Yes member, and again I never said anything against Yes. And yes for the record, you WERE implying that EVERYONE in YES wanted to be the leader, and show off, and be the main attraction, and you criticized them for it............maybe you should go back and read your own damn posts. First off your misinterpretation of what happens on stage is quite scary. And I don't deny it, I still believe everybody in Yes wanted o take the lead role at some moment, and as far as I know this is not an insult, it's only a persional opinion and appreciation, as valid as yours. If it scares you, bad luck, I'm sure some people agree with my point of view and at the end, I'm free to believe whatever I want as long I don't offend anybody, and until now, I haven't done it. Look both Genesis and YES are fine bands, that wrote great music................personally if you ask me......Gentle Giant as a band, pound for pound, wipes the floor with both YES and Genesis. Again I disagree, I don't like all Gentle Giant stuff, but I like all early Genesis and Yes up to Relayer. I don't believe in bands wiping the floor with others, that's an offensive statement, and as I said before, the last thisng I pretend is to offend anymusician or band.

Iván 

ivan_2068 wrote: I have only your word which honestly means nothing against solid evidence, you can read any biography of Genesis, and you'll find this information. Read Gallo's books, buy the DVD Genesis a History or simply check if the mentioned bands existed. Can you deny Tony Banks played at the age of 15 in the band called The Garden Wall? No you can't. Can you deny that Gabriel, Banks, Rutherford and Phillips formed Genesis in 1967? No you can't. Can you deny they formed Genesis in Charterhouse School? No you can't. Can you deny Tony Banks started his career in Genesis as a performer? Again you can't All I said can be proved beyond any doubt, probably you misunderstood Banks (If your tape is real, because I have no evidence), maybe he had the secret desire to write music for others (I'm not inside his mind), but he started creating music for two bands in which he performed and that's a fact. I can believe maybe Tony Banks never wanted to be a soloist performer, his few albums may prove this, but to say he started trying to sell music for others is an historic aberration. BUT FACTS ARE FACTS: Banks NEVER WROTE MUSIC FOR ANYBODY ELSE BEFORE FORMING GENESIS. Banks started performing at the age of 15 in The Garden Wall Bamks FOUNDED GENESIS AS KEYBOARDIST WHEN HE WAS 17 AND STILL IN SCHOOL. Sorry, but according to your interpretation of what I wrote your ABSOLUTE LACK OF EVIDENCE and THE HISTORIC EVIDENCE I PROVIDED, I can't believe you at all. Listen again the tape (if it exists) and try understand what he ment, if you want you can check the extense bibliography anout Genesis, no one mentions a single woord you wrote here and all support what I'm saying. Iván

AND STILL YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT I HAVE A DVD OF TONY BANKS SAYING THAT HE AND THE BAND WROTE SONGS FOR OTHER PEOPLE. YOU CAN'T DENY THAT IVAN...SORRY.

TONY BANKS IS A LIAR?????????

AND STILL YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT I HAVE A DVD OF TONY BANKS SAYING THAT HE AND THE BAND WROTE SONGS FOR OTHER PEOPLE. YOU CAN'T DENY THAT IVAN...SORRY.

I can deny it, I given you all the historic evidence with names, dates and years, I even quoted Biographies, YOU GAVE NOTHING SIR.

They recorded their music for them, that's an historic fact

PROVE ME I'M WRONG, QUOTE ANY SOURCE THAT SAYS THEY SOLD MUSIC, if you can't do it, please don't insist.

And no, I'm no saint, I'm just  a human with my own opinion, but I have never insulted you or anybody, and you have insulted me repeteadly.

Ubtil you come with evidence, I will ignore your posts

Iván

BTW: A few posts ago you claimed to have a tape with the voice of Tony Banksadmitting Genesis sold music and nobody wanted to buy it:

Proglover wrote a few minutes ago:

HAHAHAHAHA..........then TONY BANKS IS A LIAR THEN because I have him on tape saying how the band started..................so take it up with him not with me.

Now you say you have a DVD.

Magicly the tape with his voice has been upgraded to a DVD with images LOL that's why I can't believe you.

Calm down guys, no need to get agressive.  I get the feeling we should put a halt to edition #213432423 of this thread.