Look, I'm going to put my foot down here. I'm passionate about the integrity of the Prog Archives, and I believe the following line should be drawn:

Any band whose members line up and then in unison lower their heads and swirl their hair should not be in the archives. I'm not sure if any currently are, but if so, we need to get them out. If not, then, we need to make it clear that hair swirling is not cool, not proggy, and frankly looks stupid.

Thoughts anyone?

cobb wrote: Huh, discrimination on the grounds of hair length went out in about 1978 or something...

Oh, Cobb on! Surely you don't think I'm discriminating based solely on lenght of hair? I certainly hope that isn't the conclusion you've drawn (God, say it isn't so!)

No, I'm talking about rock "musicians" who line up center-stage, lower their head and swirl it in unison. That, my friend, is the problem. Not the length of the hair, because I am a huge fan of Zep, Yes, and all bands far and wide, but the lining up and swirling...I defy anyone to defend the practice, or extol its coolness, or hipness or whatever...

That, my down-under comrade, is what I'm talking about. If you think it's discriminatory, please explain yourself. In the meantime, I'll presume I've made my case.

Hair swirling, I need to know if others think its cool...

Gentle Ronnie wrote: What are you, nazi?

No, I'm not a nazi, whatever the hell that means...

All I'm saying is I think that real prog, the prog that belongs on this website, should not condone or associate itself with the sort of embarrasing juvenalia that is in-unison hair-swirling.

Now, if the occaisional member swirls their hair, sort of in an impromptu way, because they're getting into the music or their solo, fine. I'm talking about all the musicians lining up, lowering their heads and swirling their hair -- especially if they all swirl it in the same direction!

I'm trying to protect the integrity of the archives, really, in an ethical, morally-enlightened, unbigoted sort of way. But bands without taste...no, I'm sorry.

I'm just bringing it up because this whole prog metal thing is getting too uncomfortably close to in-unison hair-swirling, and I'm getting a little frightened...   

Easy Livin wrote: So are you saying Status Quo are not prog then?

Do they in-unison hair swirl?

Logos wrote: The jokes on this site are getting more and more complicated!

Who's joking? I'm utterly serious...

Logos wrote: Uh-oh.. okay then...

Does this request of mine seem wrong-headed to you? Please explain.

Dear bluetailfly,

considering all the efforts musicians make to grow long hair, to take care of it, to wash it and dry up, I think it would be silly not to use the opportunity to swirl your beautiful long hair.

Did you know that people grow long hair on purpose to swirl it around in unison? Well, it is true, but most find it awkward to admit.

This topic is awesome! The replies are even better!

Gentle Ronnie wrote: Dear bluetailfly, considering all the efforts musicians make to grow long hair, to take care of it, to wash it and dry up, I think it would be silly not to use the opportunity to swirl your beautiful long hair. Did you know that people grow long hair on purpose to swirl it around in unison? Well, it is true, but most find it awkward to admit.

No, I did not know that, and if you're serious, then I am deeply disturbed because I had no idea the hair-swirling subculture had reached to such a weirdly developed state.

I myself have had long hair and never once did I wish my other long-haired buddies would stand next to me so that we could swirl our hair together. I mean, it makes them look like some surreal form of the Osmond Brothers or some other packaged music commodity. It's like they're so focused on hair and hair products and that they can't see that what they're doing is acutely embarrasing to their fans.

Prog rock will not tolerate this tasteless form of rock commodification. If Steve Howe comes center stage with Squire and Anderson and they start hair-swirling in a serious way, I'm moving to like Nambia or something to become a monk.

AtLossForWords wrote: I think windmill headbanging looks really cool on stage.  No, it's not very prog, but doesn't mean a band would not be prog by doing so.

"Windmill headbanging" ? Is that that the correct term? Is that when they do it in unison?

As for windmill headbanging not being a criteria for being a prog band, I'd have to say, I'm afraid it should be. I mean, look, if Yes had played the exact same music but at every show Jon Anderson bit the heads off chickens or some other freak act, I don't think they'd be categorized as prog, even though the music is the same.

Same thing here. Some cringingly embarassing digressions of showmanship permanently mark a band.

You want to windmill headbang, fine, but I for one (and it's only my opinion) don't think they belong in the archives, which is an institution I care deeply about and I worry about it's becoming a diluted laughing stock of what the founding fathers/mothers intended.

Thank you.

I really can't get enough of this thread... its totally awesome..

Remove Meshuggah, Evergrey and their likes!!!

They are totally not prog!!!!!!!

Logos wrote: Look everyone - it's Ron Mosh!

I'm not gettin' it, man...

I would just like to say that I have nothing against someone who wants to windmill headbang; I'm a live and let live kind of person.

My only goal is to protect the Prog Archives from being infiltrated by bands that practice this act as I don't see it as a progressive music stageworthy behavior. I may be wrong, and if I am, I will accept that. But to me, it cannot rise above the cartoonish goofiness that it appears to be.

At heart prog is a serious musical undertaking (and even if the approach is humorous, it is in an intelligent witty manner, with the occaisional breach (e.g., "seven virgins and a mule" or some such thing). And I don't believe any prog worthy of the name has degenerated to the point where certain "acts" need to be performed in a circus-like manner.

That's why good prog stands the test of time, because its practicioners had the good sense to not crotch-grab or turn around and shake their booties in unison or other such crude distasteful acts. Sticking knives into the keyboard, cool; windmill headbanging, not cool.

I'll let this go now. I know it's "politically incorrect" or unhip to say these kinds of things because you risk sounding like Mary Whitehouse or someone's parents, but were trying to preserve and celebrate true prog rock here.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone who believes a good unison headbang is the pinnacle of the prog rock experience.

bluetailfly wrote: Gentle Ronnie wrote: What are you, nazi? No, I'm not a nazi, whatever the hell that means...

You know.  Hitler, 60 years or so ago.  World War II.  It was a big deal back in the forties.  Ask anyone with a Jewish heritage and they'll tell you all about it.  Or ask Americans, French, Brits.  It was a really big deal.  Perhaps you should try to stay awake through your 8th grade civics class.

What you fail to realize, my good bluetailfly, is that windmill headbanging is an old and hallowed practice going back to the classical age: Plato condoned it, it was a massive influence on the Renaissance thinkers of the 16th-17th century, and the work of such composers as Bach, Beethoven, and Haydn could not have flourished without the enlightened practice of windmill headbanging. So it seems that the very sources whence progressive rock musicians draw inspiration did inevitably also pass down as the birthright of intelligent people the world over what you have so ignorantly termed as "hair swirling".

Which means that I am right, your opinions are all sad trash, and you owe me a Coke.

Alagithil wrote: What you fail to realize, my good bluetailfly, is that windmill headbanging is an old and hallowed practice going back to the classical age: Plato condoned it, it was a massive influence on the Renaissance thinkers of the 16th-17th century, and the work of such composers as Bach, Beethoven, and Haydn could not have flourished without the enlightened practice of windmill headbanging. So it seems that the very sources whence progressive rock musicians draw inspiration did inevitably also pass down as the birthright of intelligent people the world over what you have so ignorantly termed as "hair swirling".   Which means that I am right, your opinions are all sad trash, and you owe me a Coke.

I love you.

The Doctor wrote: bluetailfly wrote: Gentle Ronnie wrote: What are you, nazi? No, I'm not a nazi, whatever the hell that means... You know.  Hitler, 60 years or so ago.  World War II.  It was a big deal back in the forties.  Ask anyone with a Jewish heritage and they'll tell you all about it.  Or ask Americans, French, Brits.  It was a really big deal.  Perhaps you should try to stay awake through your 8th grade civics class.

My good Doctor,

I know what a nazi is; I just had no idea what Gentle Ronnie meant when he called me one in that context...it's a rather complex and politically-charged term to throw at someone who is merely opining that windmill headbanging is a goofy-looking spectacle.

Gentle Ronnie wrote: Alagithil wrote: What you fail to realize, my good bluetailfly, is that windmill headbanging is an old and hallowed practice going back to the classical age: Plato condoned it, it was a massive influence on the Renaissance thinkers of the 16th-17th century, and the work of such composers as Bach, Beethoven, and Haydn could not have flourished without the enlightened practice of windmill headbanging. So it seems that the very sources whence progressive rock musicians draw inspiration did inevitably also pass down as the birthright of intelligent people the world over what you have so ignorantly termed as "hair swirling".   Which means that I am right, your opinions are all sad trash, and you owe me a Coke. I love you.

He's my new fav poster... I'm in awe...

Alagithil wrote: What you fail to realize, my good bluetailfly, is that windmill headbanging is an old and hallowed practice going back to the classical age: Plato condoned it, it was a massive influence on the Renaissance thinkers of the 16th-17th century, and the work of such composers as Bach, Beethoven, and Haydn could not have flourished without the enlightened practice of windmill headbanging. So it seems that the very sources whence progressive rock musicians draw inspiration did inevitably also pass down as the birthright of intelligent people the world over what you have so ignorantly termed as "hair swirling".   Which means that I am right, your opinions are all sad trash, and you owe me a Coke.

As for you, Alaigithil <---??? Is that name from Battlestar Galactica?

I defy you to show me a woodcut, or tapestry, or cave painting, or aged oil-painted canvas, or a textual citation from any of the thinkers you mention above that depicts a unison windmill headbang (which is really what we're talking about here; I know Plant and many other greats have thrown their hair around in defiantly cool ways; but never did they line up and in unison lower their heads and swirl their hair like some kind of girly teen act).

If the Spice Girls want to unison swirl, I say go for it, I look forward to checking it out. But if a group of musicians do it and seriously mean it, well they've just demonstrated a fundamental lack of taste, a lack so fundamental that it must necessarily affect all facets of their lives, including their music.

So that being said, you still must prove your point, my TV sci fi fan, and sure I'll give you a Coke, what the hell, I'm a good fellow.

John,

While I applaud any effort to rid this archive of the likes of Triumph and their lock-swirling ilk, I fear your approach is another slippery-slope of trying to impose one's own ideals in the guise of reason.  Is hair swirling a sure-fire ticket to banishment, but fire-eating or flatulence on-stage acceptable (or even artsy)?!  What about poor grammar or overuse of bar chords?  Cock socks?  Do these get the hook?

It's such a fuzzy line - what constitutes anti-prog behavior on stage?  Who decides?  Do we give unfair advantage to those who have no hair to swirl?

 (okay, that's Super Furry Animals, but hey - they're in these archives too).

Where would it end? 

ClemofNazareth wrote: John, While I applaud any effort to rid this archive of the likes of Triumph and their lock-swirling ilk, I fear your approach is another slippery-slope of trying to impose one's own ideals in the guise of reason.  Is hair swirling a sure-fire ticket to banishment, but fire-eating or flatulence on-stage acceptable (or even artsy)?!  What about poor grammar or overuse of bar chords?  Cock socks?  Do these get the hook? It's such a fuzzy line - what constitutes anti-prog behavior on stage?  Who decides?  Do we give unfair advantage to those who have no hair to swirl?  (okay, that's Super Furry Animals, but hey - they're in these archives too). Where would it end?

Clem,

"While I applaud any effort to rid this archive of the likes of Triumph and their lock-swirling ilk"

Thank you (though Triumph: unison windmill head-banging?)

"I fear your approach is another slippery-slope of trying to impose one's own ideals in the guise of reason.  Is hair swirling a sure-fire ticket to banishment, but fire-eating or flatulence on-stage acceptable (or even artsy)?!  What about poor grammar or overuse of bar chords?  Cock socks?  Do these get the hook?

It's such a fuzzy line - what constitutes anti-prog behavior on stage?  Who decides?  Do we give unfair advantage to those who have no hair to swirl?"

I am fully aware of the slippery slope one encountrs if one begins to extrapolate from "unison windmill headbanging" to other types of stage antics.  And my response is, we must take each one on a case-by-case basis. I have chosen to draw a line at unison hair-swirling/banging because in my experience every band that I am aware of that indulges in it is of mediocre quality at best.

If onstage flatulence  or cock socks become a fad, then we will need to assess it on its merits.

I don't mind anything done onstage as long as their is some sort of wit and cleverness behind it (e.g., Gabriel, Byrne, et al.); but if these qualities are lacking, and the band does something that simply reflects their poor taste in artistic behavior, then yes the critics need to speak up and humiliate them back to the whatever cold-water squat they emerged from. That's the way it works. And to my mind, unison windmill headbanging is one of the true signs of tasteless mediocrity. I'm sorry, but I deeply believe that. In my experience, no band that has unison windmill headbanged was ever anything but a joke.

But I am open-minded and if such a thing were to occur, I would probably begin to see things differently, but that's a big if...

Thank you.

^The last two - get a sense of humor

@Bluetailfly. Jost noticed this, laughed my a$$ off

How the hell did I miss this topic?

I have been laughing so hard I nearly choked on my breakfast.

bluetailfly wrote: Alagithil wrote: What you fail to realize, my good bluetailfly, is that windmill headbanging is an old and hallowed practice going back to the classical age: Plato condoned it, it was a massive influence on the Renaissance thinkers of the 16th-17th century, and the work of such composers as Bach, Beethoven, and Haydn could not have flourished without the enlightened practice of windmill headbanging. So it seems that the very sources whence progressive rock musicians draw inspiration did inevitably also pass down as the birthright of intelligent people the world over what you have so ignorantly termed as "hair swirling".   Which means that I am right, your opinions are all sad trash, and you owe me a Coke. As for you, Alaigithil <---??? Is that name from Battlestar Galactica? I defy you to show me a woodcut, or tapestry, or cave painting, or aged oil-painted canvas, or a textual citation from any of the thinkers you mention above that depicts a unison windmill headbang (which is really what we're talking about here; I know Plant and many other greats have thrown their hair around in defiantly cool ways; but never did they line up and in unison lower their heads and swirl their hair like some kind of girly teen act). If the Spice Girls want to unison swirl, I say go for it, I look forward to checking it out. But if a group of musicians do it and seriously mean it, well they've just demonstrated a fundamental lack of taste, a lack so fundamental that it must necessarily affect all facets of their lives, including their music. So that being said, you still must prove your point, my TV sci fi fan, and sure I'll give you a Coke, what the hell, I'm a good fellow.

FYI, my name is from a website that converted my name into Elvish. Whereas yours is from a minstrel show song, performed by people who put black makeup on, made fun of slaves, and, significantly, never swirled their hair in unison. I rest my case.

Wait, no, I don't. As to textual citations, Plato wrote, "Wise men windmill headbang because they have someone to impress, fools because they have to impress someone," and Shakespeare wrote, "This above all; to thine windmill headbanging be true; and then it must follow, as the braid the head, Thou canst not be lame to any man."

As to taste, taste is a highly subjective thing, something which no one person can determine; it is not clear cut. Who can tell what has taste and what hasn't? Also, you have no taste. You owe me two Cokes, a Dr. Pepper, a half-eaten Swiss cheese, and a fart in your general direction.

P.S. For the elvish name converter, I had to include my middle name; initially, my Elvish name was Jon Anderson.

I think that having hair longer than a grade 6 should automatically bar anyone from even thinking about being in a prog band.

How can you play good music with all that hair?

Freakin' hippies.

And as for swirling windmills - shoot the lot, I say.

Certif1ed wrote: I think that having hair longer than a grade 6 should automatically bar anyone from even thinking about being in a prog band. How can you play good music with all that hair? Freakin' hippies.

So hippies can't play in a prog band,eh? That's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

 <--I hate that smiley.

Alagithil wrote: bluetailfly wrote: Alagithil wrote: What you fail to realize, my good bluetailfly, is that windmill headbanging is an old and hallowed practice going back to the classical age: Plato condoned it, it was a massive influence on the Renaissance thinkers of the 16th-17th century, and the work of such composers as Bach, Beethoven, and Haydn could not have flourished without the enlightened practice of windmill headbanging. So it seems that the very sources whence progressive rock musicians draw inspiration did inevitably also pass down as the birthright of intelligent people the world over what you have so ignorantly termed as "hair swirling".   Which means that I am right, your opinions are all sad trash, and you owe me a Coke. As for you, Alaigithil <---??? Is that name from Battlestar Galactica? I defy you to show me a woodcut, or tapestry, or cave painting, or aged oil-painted canvas, or a textual citation from any of the thinkers you mention above that depicts a unison windmill headbang (which is really what we're talking about here; I know Plant and many other greats have thrown their hair around in defiantly cool ways; but never did they line up and in unison lower their heads and swirl their hair like some kind of girly teen act). If the Spice Girls want to unison swirl, I say go for it, I look forward to checking it out. But if a group of musicians do it and seriously mean it, well they've just demonstrated a fundamental lack of taste, a lack so fundamental that it must necessarily affect all facets of their lives, including their music. So that being said, you still must prove your point, my TV sci fi fan, and sure I'll give you a Coke, what the hell, I'm a good fellow. FYI, my name is from a website that converted my name into Elvish. Whereas yours is from a minstrel show song, performed by people who put black makeup on, made fun of slaves, and, significantly, never swirled their hair in unison. I rest my case. Wait, no, I don't. As to textual citations, Plato wrote, "Wise men windmill headbang because they have someone to impress, fools because they have to impress someone," and Shakespeare wrote, "This above all; to thine windmill headbanging be true; and then it must follow, as the braid the head, Thou canst not be lame to any man." As to taste, taste is a highly subjective thing, something which no one person can determine; it is not clear cut. Who can tell what has taste and what hasn't? Also, you have no taste. You owe me two Cokes, a Dr. Pepper, a half-eaten Swiss cheese, and a fart in your general direction. P.S. For the elvish name converter, I had to include my middle name; initially, my Elvish name was Jon Anderson.

This is, in my opinion a bit lacking... + ELVISH name converters are pretty gay if you ask me.. A middle name has no contribution to anyithing. Even if you want to convert your name into an elvish one, your middle has nothing to add to something you can't read anyways.  

Radioactive Toy wrote: ELVISH name converters are pretty gay if you ask me.. A middle name has no contribution to anyithing. Even if you want to convert your name into an elvish one, your middle has nothing to add to something you can't read anyways.

...the converter is more or less randomized, the middle name affects what name you get via some process I neither know nor understand. Basically, the postscript was there merely for the Yes joke. Please don't use "gay" as an insult, some of my favorite bands are gay.

cobb wrote: The Miracle wrote: ^The last two - get a sense of humor @Bluetailfly. Jost noticed this, laughed my a$$ off Mine was bit too obtruse for you, was it Miracle

Sorry, I was drunk when I posted that

That still applies to Pseudo's post though

metalprogressiv wrote: Can you give some examples of bands who have actually done such a thing as lining up and swirling their hairy heads?

Just guessing here, but I'd say the likes of Motley Crue, Stryper, Ratt, Poison, Twisted Sister, stuff like that. 

Pretty much any band that these guys would have listened to:

Alagithil wrote: Certif1ed wrote: I think that having hair longer than a grade 6 should automatically bar anyone from even thinking about being in a prog band. How can you play good music with all that hair? Freakin' hippies.   So hippies can't play in a prog band,eh? That's the funniest thing I've heard all week.  <--I hate that smiley.

Of course not!

Hippies play hippie music.

Proggers play prog - and they can't be hippies, because hippies have long, swirly hair and might line up and do a windmill.

Therefore hippies can't play in a prog band.

"Close to the Edge" is hippieish. Yes is very hippieish. And their hair is very very long.

But hippies don't hairswirl. Pop-metal people do.

Brilliant. Probably the most engaging and interesting topic this forum has seen yet.

I don't see why anyone is surprised at this... it wouldn't be a prog forum without ridiculous, snobbishly elitist opinions such as this.

Alagithil wrote: "Close to the Edge" is hippieish. Yes is very hippieish. And their hair is very very long. But hippies don't hairswirl. Pop-metal people do.

But you miss the point.

They MIGHT line up and hair-swirl because they've got long hair. If they didn't have long hair, then they couldn't.

And YES have released singles - so they can't be a proper prog band.

The hair is enough reason for me to discount YES, of course - but I'm glad to see they got proper haircuts later in life.

Certif1ed wrote: Alagithil wrote: "Close to the Edge" is hippieish. Yes is very hippieish. And their hair is very very long. But hippies don't hairswirl. Pop-metal people do. But you miss the point. They MIGHT line up and hair-swirl because they've got long hair. If they didn't have long hair, then they couldn't. And YES have released singles - so they can't be a proper prog band. The hair is enough reason for me to discount YES, of course - but I'm glad to see they got proper haircuts later in life.

at the haircut of Brian. Using your logic Queen never was a proper prog. band.

(Seriously, they were on their early albums.)

Norbert wrote: Certif1ed wrote: Alagithil wrote: "Close to the Edge" is hippieish. Yes is very hippieish. And their hair is very very long. But hippies don't hairswirl. Pop-metal people do. But you miss the point. They MIGHT line up and hair-swirl because they've got long hair. If they didn't have long hair, then they couldn't. And YES have released singles - so they can't be a proper prog band. The hair is enough reason for me to discount YES, of course - but I'm glad to see they got proper haircuts later in life.   Hm. Queen also released singles in the 70's(when they were the best) and take a look at the haircut of Brian. Using your logic Queen never was a proper prog. band. (Seriously, they were on their early albums.)

Ah, but if you take that logic to its ultimate conclusion, then no band are prog bands - so much for logic.

I try to avoid it wherever possible...

Gentle Ronnie wrote: I do believe Berlioz wrote a "Concerto Suite For Hair Swirling And Orchestra" though.

Cool,

Could you send me a copy??????

^ and also, i need to justify my behaviour at discos and night clubs where i would gather a dozen or so of my (headbanger) friends and linear hairswirl to... say... 'the greatest love of all - Whitney Housten'.... See, there is a place for such behaviour....

Besides, Pink Floyd make for great hair swirling music.........